Board With Each Other
A podcast that looks at Board Games / Tabletop Gaming through the lens of playing as a couple or with a regular gaming partner. Hosted by Al & Hannah, We review a game each episode.
Board With Each Other
Episode 32 - Spirit Island: The Spirit is Willing, But the Brain Is Weak
Get off my land!
Just kidding, you are most welcome to join us as we take a deep dive into the Co-op mega hit, Spirit Island. We discuss complexity, difficulty, how utterly ineffective Al is at it but most importantly, how it works as a two player experience.
We hope you enjoy!
Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Board With Each Other, the board gaming podcast that reviews board games and asks the question: how well does this play with two players? Whether that be with your significant other, a BFF, or those Dan colonizers who will not get off your island. I'm Al Simpson, and today I'm joined by my lovely wife and co-host, Hannah Kelly.
SPEAKER_01:What do you mean today? Do you do other episodes without me?
SPEAKER_00:Shhh, don't tell anybody. That's just me monologuing. So today we are talking about the cooperative uh settler-battler Spirit Island. In Spirit Island, you take the role of a angry spirit, angry because colonizers are pitched up on the shores of your island. And your job is to uh destroy them, their towns, their cities, and instill fear into the populace until they leave. You accomplish this by You accomplish this by spreading a presence throughout the land, which is represented by a sort of modular uh island board. You have a number of boards depending on the number of players that you play with. And on your turn, you start by gaining resources or cards or reclaiming cards you've discarded pile. It's called the growth phase, and you basically each spirit has a different number of uh growths they can uh select on each turn. After that, you place down powers, some of which are free, so which you have to pay energy for. And the powers are split into fast and slow powers. Fast powers uh take effect almost sort of immediately, and then you have a settler phase. So the settler phase, the settlers explore the islands and new settlers appear, they build new settlements, towns and cities, or they ravage the land. So essentially they attack the lands that they are on. If they damage a land enough on a single turn, you get a blight token on that land, and if you already have a blight blow token on set land, that blight token cascades to another adjacent land, so far so pandemic. After that, your slow powers take effect, and then the game turn ends. The powers are focused on a number of different things. They either do damage to the directly to the settlers, um, or they will move them around, or they will defend the land, so they'll basically uh stop if you've got nothing else there, yeah, the damage will get absorbed basically. Or they will move around or interact with the Dahan. The Dahn are the natives of the island, represented by little brown mushrooms, and they essentially are there to attack back the settlers on the um ravage turn, provided the settlers do not kill them first, the settlers get to attack first. There are two decks of cards, minor powers and major powers. You gain these through your growth options. When you gain a minor power, you just take it into your hand. When you gain a major power, you have to forget a power, i.e. trash, basically a card that's that's in your hand or discard pile. Play continues until you have either wiped the uh explorers out, the settlers out, um, to the extent to which is dictated by the fear level. Whenever you do damage and that destroys towns and cities, you cause fear. If you cause enough fear, eight fear for two players, you draw a fear card, of which they are nine. That fear card has some effects that take place on the next turn. For every three, you go up a fear level. So fear level one, you have to completely clear the board of everything. Fear level two, you need to destroy all towns and cities. Fear level three, you just need to destroy all cities. If you get to the bottom of the fear deck, you win. If you gain more than I think it's a total of 15 blight with two players in the entirety of the game, you lose. And if the explorer deck runs out, you lose.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's also worth mentioning that you start off with I think about eight blight that you can place in the game. That will be.
SPEAKER_00:That's five.
SPEAKER_01:So five, and you will place those. Once those have run out, you then get blighted island effects, which are additional bad things that happen during during the fight.
SPEAKER_00:There's basically two scenarios for the base game of what will happen when that happens. But the final ten blights, it it's it's a lot harder, basically. The island is split up into different uh uh biomes, basically, so jungle, wetlands, deserts, mountains. Uh, and that the the explorer deck indicates where on the board the explorer's activities will happen, and that's sort of cascades one to three as you go along. As you get further into the explorer deck, you start to get multiples of those on a single card. So jungles and wetlands, for existence, for instance, or all coastal lands.
SPEAKER_01:It's probably worth mentioning that first you will draw, um, say, for example, you drew a mountain under the explorer phase. Yeah, once you've done that, it then moves up so that you know what order it's going to hit. So you know, like in two turns time, it will be mountains that get ravaged, for example.
SPEAKER_00:So you can kind of see it coming to a certain extent.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, for a very, very complex game, that is basically it.
SPEAKER_01:In a nutshell.
SPEAKER_00:In a nutshell. Um obviously a lot of the rules minutiae within the cards and the powers. One thing I haven't mentioned is all um spirits have innate powers and a special ability, as is often the way with sort of picking your character. But the innate powers, each power that you use has elements on there, and provided you meet the criteria of those elements on your turn, you can you can use as many of your innate powers as you have elements for. They don't get used up when you use them, it's just sort of thresholds that you have to meet. Um, and as you get more powerful as the game goes on, as you place more presence onto the board, you'll get things like innate elements that you'll get automatically every turn. You basically you take counters off your player board and put them on the board and they reveal things underneath. Um, you'll be able to play more cards per turn. You'll be able to get more energy at the start of your turn every turn. Uh it's uh as as you place more presence, as it were, on the island, your your spirits' powers and that button.
SPEAKER_01:You can lose presence as well. Yes. And it is almost nigh on impossible to get that back.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um and it's also almost nigh on impossible to get to harm back, although there are cards that allow you to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, they're usually uh a finite resource. Um, yeah, if you're present if you are present in a land that gets blighted, you lose a presence from that land. It doesn't go back to your ward, it basically gets trashed.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um running time.
SPEAKER_00:I would say probably on average, I'd say about 90 minutes to two players.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:I'd say that's that's on average. That's if you get that far. Yeah. And don't completely wipe, which is the case we'll get on to quite often.
SPEAKER_01:It's probably worth mentioning as well that you've got the base game, as it were, and then you also have scenarios with it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it's got a difficulty system within it where you can ramp up the difficulty, uh, but it also has things like scenarios and particular nations you can face, and they have their own special rules and uh basically a lot more difficult than the base game, but it ramps up in difficulty quite a lot. So obviously, I heard a huge amount about Spirit Island over the years, and it looked looked like our cup of tea, you know, really sort of meaty cooperative experience, very, very heavy on the rules, uh, the kind of thing that I tend to enjoy.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like this is probably one of the most heavy games, war game geek rating wise.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's above four, which is quite a rarity. Yeah. Um it's it's rated very, very highly on the the sort of the rules heaviness scale, which I don't actually agree with, but we'll get on to the reasons why. I think the rules are fairly simple. We've got a whole category for that. We'll save we'll save the conversation for that. But yeah, so I've heard so much about it, so I'm you know decided to pick it up and give it a go.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So on that note, shall we crack on with scoring?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, let's.
SPEAKER_01:So under our first category, we have components. So that includes board space, setup and the actual things that come in the box.
SPEAKER_00:Indeed.
SPEAKER_01:So one of the things I'm gonna say is if you look at the box and if you look at the colours, it's really bright, vibrant, and playful. And actually the theme is not very bright, vibrant, or playful. No.
SPEAKER_00:There's a real weird cartooniness to a game that seems to be about death and destruction. I've identified there's a disconnect with a lot of card card art, which is actually quite gritty, and the general presentation, which is a bit like, ooh, cute spirits. That's like what?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they're they're not cute spirits, they're gonna fuck your shit up, man.
SPEAKER_00:I think there's a lack of cohesion to the style of this, which I find quite eyebrow-raising. And I'm not quite sure whether there was a concept before that then took a wheel turn and development or something, but it it it does stick out a little bit. It's that it really doesn't match.
SPEAKER_01:The front of the box does not look like what the meat of the box is about.
SPEAKER_00:No, the front of the craft looks like you're about to crack out like flame craft or something like that by cutesy dragons. You know, it it just it doesn't it doesn't gel.
SPEAKER_01:Um that's what I really like. The front of the box, it's really pretty.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I actually prefer the odd the cartoony art style stuff to the more gritty art style, which I find a bit yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Uh with that aside, um, I think the components are pretty good. So you've got these cute little uh Dahan creatures.
SPEAKER_00:The mushroom men.
SPEAKER_01:And I would say that all the components that you get in the box are all quite distinct and unique. You're never going to confuse the the two of them or confuse any of the parts together. So that gives it a big tick in my box.
SPEAKER_00:I have to ironically laugh at the amount of plastic in a game about you know nature reclaiming the land. Um all of the explorers, the the towns and the cities are very small plastic minis, basically.
SPEAKER_01:They are quite cheap and flimsy, though. But then I mean I didn't I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Do you like monopoly houses and hotels? That's kind that's kind of what you're looking at.
SPEAKER_01:But then you've also got these fear tokens, which are quite big, and again, cardboard and purple, which again thematically interest, and then you've got these really weird small grey blight tokens that don't really represent anything aside from perhaps maybe a spludge of mud.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I have to say it looks a bit of a mess on the table. Like it it's not, it just doesn't feel cohesive with the artistic vision of it and in the comp the use of components. You've got mixed materials, as you say, it just it all feels a little bit disconnected, discombobulated.
SPEAKER_01:Um very unique looking.
SPEAKER_00:They are unique looking, yeah, yeah. But I'm I'm I'm not sold on the way it looks. Yeah. I think it looks quite ugly and messy when you play it. Um it's not a pretty game.
SPEAKER_01:That said, the card art though, I know you said that you prefer the cartoony stuff to the actual art on the cards, but I think the cards are really quite pri they're they're well designed. Yeah, yeah, no, they are.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not yeah, I don't hate them. I just yeah, I think I think one cohesive theme would have been better.
SPEAKER_01:Um you've also got um map uh pieces, and you have to combine two, or is it the number of people?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it depends on the number of people. So you have an island board for each player, basically.
SPEAKER_01:Um they sort of all slot together, and then you have another board as well, which keeps track of all your cards, your explorer cards, your fear, yeah, all that kind of stuff. Um it's not a massive table hog.
SPEAKER_00:No, it's not. It's actually considering the the density of the game is quite compact.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, yeah, no, you can definitely you can play this on a reasonably small area.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:With two people anyway, obviously with more people you'd like to do.
SPEAKER_01:I think even four people, do you know it's it's not going to be absolutely massive.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, we do play it on a big table, but yeah, you know, I don't think it's definitely it's definitely smaller than games of the skill usually are, I have to say. Okay. Set up and teardown. I mean, uh it's it's a complex co-op, so set up is a bit of a bit of a finicky experience.
SPEAKER_01:What's really irritating, and it's a small bugbear of mine, is that on your player mat, you have to look at the back of it to know how to set it up. And nine times out of ten, I will then lay all my presence tokens on my board and then go, Why have I got extra presence? I have to take them all off and then which is I mean, it's a really small, picky.
SPEAKER_00:It is a small thing, but it annoys me as well. I also had to do that. You've got to unpack everything, turn it over, just look at it. Like I feel like setup instructions should have been on the playing side.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Just because you probably need to refer back to them when you're, you know, actually setting up the game, not you've selected your spirit. Um, worth mentioning as well that some of the text on the player, on the spirits, is tiny, like really tiny. So if you do have any sort of sight problems or anything like that, you might struggle there. Very, very small, not easy to read. Yeah. Um teardown is pretty much the same as setup, not too bad, not too onerous.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:Alright, so what did you give it?
SPEAKER_01:So I gave it a seven.
SPEAKER_00:I gave it a six.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think the theme is probably my main bugbear with the game, but I don't have that much of an issue with it.
SPEAKER_00:My biggest issue is just that it looks quite messy and ugly when you when you're playing it.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Alright.
SPEAKER_01:And so then on to complexity. Okay, and as always, well, you can say it.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so as always, this is not how complex the game is. We don't give higher scores for more complex games, and vice versa. This is how well the complexity and design of the game serves the gameplay. Do you want to start?
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Um, so I think there are some real highs in here for me, and there are also some real lows.
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:Uh shall we talk about the highs first?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, let's go with the highs first.
SPEAKER_01:So, presence is a really integral part of the game. There are um a lot of cards that will only play where you have presence or within a particular range of presence, um, and you get a single presence and a double presence.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which is called a seat of power if you've got two presents on one land.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, and so because it's such an integral part of the game, there's this real push-pull dynamic about where do you place your presence and what do you what what sort of um because whenever you play a presence, you take it off your player mat and you will get either additional energy or you will get to play additional cards or or or or something. And so it's a real push-pull dynamic about working out where to place them. I really like how tight that is. Yeah. And how that's a really um yeah, it's it it just it feels really, really good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a really sound part of the game, I would agree. Yeah, that's that choosing where to where to spread yourself to and how quickly you want to advance is integral to it and it's a really interesting mechanic.
SPEAKER_01:And I think depending on who you're playing as well, it it depends whether you want to spread yourself quite thin to begin with, or whether you want to concentrate in one particular area and leave your you know, your your your other player to kind of pick up their side of the board. Um, so I think that's really good.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I also think the deck building element is well, there are highs and lows to that. So you you do have to craft a deck, and actually when you get to draw cards from either minor or major power, you get to draw four. So you do get a good pick.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, you do.
SPEAKER_01:Uh you draw four, pick one. Um so you do get a good range of cards. Um, and quite early on it becomes well, it becomes easy to build up your hand quite early on by getting minor powers.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Um, when you get a major power, you have to discard a card. So there is that deck-thinning aspect to it. So you don't want to go too quick and too heavy with your major powers because one, you won't be able to afford to play them, and B, your deck is just too small.
SPEAKER_00:That's what I was gonna say. With the major powers, a lot of them are very expensive, and you just simply will not have the energy early on in the game to be able to use them, so you can't sort of rush into them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, so that's a nice way of being able to balance it out. However, despite the fact that you get to draw four cards, yeah, too often I find myself drawing a handful of cards that don't work well or interact well with your spirit. My spirit. And this is one of the problems that I have, particularly with innate powers.
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:Because innate powers, you have to have um a number of symbols. I don't know how else. They're elements.
SPEAKER_00:Every power has a number of elements on the left-hand side of the card.
SPEAKER_01:And so you'll need two of one element and then one of one and then one of another one. And so there becomes this real push-pull between, well, do you pick a card because you want the power in it, or do you pick a card because um you want to foster the ability to play your innate powers? Yeah, and that becomes a real bugbear for me, because actually I find that too often than not I pick a card because my innate abilities and actually necessarily work all that well for my playstyle, or then conversely, I end up picking cards that work with my playstyle or the particular problem that you've got on the board, and then I lose the ability to use my innate powers.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so, you know, you will talk about, you know, is it one rule too many? And I kind of wonder whether that whole innate power thing is just one too one rule too many.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, perhaps. I mean, I'm uh I'd be quieter than normal because I think uh the uh the there's a lot of threads that you're pulling on that I'm going to go into in the next category for me, so I'm not gonna talk to them. I I'm not gonna talk to them too much in this one. Um fully agreed with everything that you said. Um Is it a rule too far? I don't know, and I think this is a this is a general overarching thing for me with this. I don't think the rules are the problem. I think the rules and the mechanics as written are fine. I have other issues, which I'll get into in a bit. As far as a rule set goes, I think it's actually quite simple. I don't think I was surprised at how heavily this is rated. Um it requires a lot of thinking and a lot of planning, but as a rule set, is it overly complex?
SPEAKER_01:You don't know what complexity is though. Isn't complexity about it's not just about rules and how many there are or how difficult they are to get your head around. It's about how deep does the game go, how much strategy and how much options you get around it. And I think and I I I think you struggle with this because of the complexity, because the other thing that I really like about this is that it's kind of like playing 3D chess because you're constantly thinking two, three turns ahead, and you're trying to set the board up, and I think that's that's the complexity, and that's why it's rated so heavily.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but the thing is that doesn't really that doesn't really pan out with board game geek ratings, like chess would be rated one. Oh well that's that's the thing. I think that's kind of my point. Um, yes, I I agree with everything you've said. I think just from like uh the way games are rated around complexity, it tends to be about the rule set.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And I just I don't know I'm rating here. Yeah, that's fine.
SPEAKER_01:I I'm not board game key.
SPEAKER_00:No, you're not. No, we're not. Um that's not exactly what we rate, yeah. But I I think what I'm saying is I was I was taken aback by how simple the rules were. I was expecting like pages upon pages of minush, you know, just from the reputation I had, and that's not what I got, and I think that's the point I'm trying to make. So from the rule set perspective, I think the rules are absolutely fine. I actually think it's a reasonably easy teach. I think. Yeah, I do. I do. I don't think it's as bad as like I think something like brass is way more difficult to teach than this.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna think about that for a minute.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, you think about that for a minute. I I I think there's a lot of games that we play that are more difficult to teach somebody than this. I think this as far as how the game works and the the core rules and the core mechanics are really not that bad.
SPEAKER_01:Um turns are long, turns are convoluted, there are many phases in it, you like you start off with you and then it goes to the you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That was one thing I was about that that was I was going to get on to. Where I think perhaps it goes a little bit too far is around the phasing. So turns are these multi-phased back and forth between you and the evaders, and this happens and that happens. It's very, very convoluted the way a turn flows through. It's not sort of you go, then the bad guys go, you go, then the bad guys. It's it's that slow and fast powers, and the enemy turn in the middle really throws me for a loop when I'm trying to strategize. Like I find that really difficult as a concept to keep in my head all the time. I understand it, but I forget it when I'm in the midst of trying to think things through. So I'll often play a power because I thought, oh, I've got this sorted out. Oh no, it's a slow power. No, I haven't. I've ruined over.
SPEAKER_01:And yet that's one of the things that I really like about it. I like the fact that you do your thing there and then, and then you start doing board setup later. And I I do like that. I do struggle to get my head around it, and I think quite often you're fighting fires, so it kind of gets waylaid. But I like that it has that opportunity or that ability to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. I think my issue with this, and this is a me issue, is I think it's got an ocean of depth, but not very much width. So you have to, you have it's very, very deep in the way you have to think about the tactics and how what you're doing and the strategy, etc. But you don't have a lot of wiggle room, and it's very difficult to pivot if you get anything wrong. If you take a step out of line, it feels very much that there is an optimum way to play, and if you deviate from that optimum way to play, you're gonna lose.
SPEAKER_01:Is there an optimum way to play? Is there?
SPEAKER_00:I think so, and I think that's different for each spirit, but I think it's one of those things where you essentially solve it and you know how to play your spirit, and then it gets boring, and then you go up in a difficulty. I just I don't think there's a lot of depth, but there's not a lot of lateral sort of I find it hard to describe, but I always feel like there's not enough options. You're either doing the right thing or you are not, and from a complexity standpoint, that's not the complexity I gel too well with. I prefer having a wider open decision space. I as opposed to just feeling like I'm doing it wrong, which is how I feel a lot of the time when I'm playing it. Um is that is that complexity? Yeah, probably. That's what you're talking about, a sort of strategic depth. It's got a huge amount of strategic depth, but I don't know if it's the right sort of strategic depth that I gel with. Um but is it makes it it makes it a hard one to score this one? It really does, because how well does the complexity serve the game? Wonderfully, if that's your thing. I think is my perspective on it. Um is it your thing? Is it not? That that's gonna that's gonna alter your your mileage, really. Um for me, I've tried to be as objective as possible, and given how the rules are fairly well designed and streamlined, and there's that huge amount of depth there, I've given it a seven.
SPEAKER_01:So I gave it a six.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I'm very interested that you gave it a higher than me, but I was trying very hard to get certain personal things out of that bucket.
SPEAKER_01:Um the reason I think I gave it a six was um again, it's about the deck building element to it, which I find quite frustrating. Yeah. Because because I never feel that it's as powerful as it should be, and it's always a trade-off at something else. And that I think is is that about complexity?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you see, it's not for me, which is why I'm keeping quiet.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, but I do think it is, because I think it's because of that issue between your your powers and your innate powers. Um I also think, and I I haven't talked about this yet, there's something as well about range and about cards and the amount of times that I've made mistakes, I'm pretty sure you've made mistakes as well, is because there is often a huge amount of detail on those power cards that you pick up, and quite often I will end up misplaying them just because there is so much, and that's maybe that is an issue with me, and it's a rules issue, but but also when the game is as complex complex as it is, I think it's just a little bit too much.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a sea to power one that always gets me because it's not immediately visually obvious without really looking. That's what requires a sea to power, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But also it there's there's ones that uh require specific target land, like the target land must be mountains or jungles, and that's fine, but m target land has to be Dahan or target land has to have blight or something like that, and that's easily missed. And I just think that's one level of detail that maybe just it it pushes it a little bit cheaper than it's a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay, fair enough. Yeah, that's fine, that's valid.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I gave it a six.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_01:All right, and then on to shelf life. So on the shelf life we talk about things like value for money, but also replayability. So as always, what's the price point?
SPEAKER_00:65 to 70.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's definitely on the expensive side.
SPEAKER_01:How much is brass?
SPEAKER_00:About fifty.
SPEAKER_01:How much is the witch on?
SPEAKER_00:65.
SPEAKER_01:I don't think that's unreasonable.
SPEAKER_00:I don't think it's unreasonable, but I do think it's pushing it a little bit. Um, it's definitely on the expensive side for what you get on the box, in my opinion. I've seen a lot more for less.
SPEAKER_01:I would say if it had a more coherent theme, regardless of how you feel about it, you probably wouldn't bat an eyelid.
SPEAKER_00:I don't know. I think I still would.
SPEAKER_01:Really?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think I still would. There's a lot of the box, but it's not insane amounts in the box, you know? And it's not particularly deluxe in any way. I think the only exception would be the Han, which feel really nice, almost like polished varnished wood. But a lot of it is cardboard and all these little plastic sort of shits for you know, it it it it doesn't feel that's a price point for me. It really doesn't. It does feel a little bit over.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:You know, but 50 fifth 50 to 60 range I'd probably be alright with.
SPEAKER_01:But I mean 60 I'd be quite happy with.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I just I I do think it's a little bit on the expensive side, I have to say. Um, probably a move point now that I think they've sort of got out of business and stopped printing it. But yeah, definitely, definitely on the high side.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So let's talk about replayability.
SPEAKER_00:I think this is a hard one for me to answer. That'll become apparent in the next category. I think that if you liked this, you play you could play it forever.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so here's the thing. When we first started playing it, I wasn't massively into it, and we took a break for a long time, and then we came back to play it, and I completely forgotten how to play it, and I found it a really frustrating experience. In fact, we started over three times until I got my head back what I was supposed to do back into the game and what I was supposed to do. And then since then I've been on an upward trajectory, and I think now I have finally figured out what it is that I could or should or would be doing. Maybe I'm just behind you, or maybe that's it.
SPEAKER_00:Not necessarily.
SPEAKER_01:Actually, I do think this is something that I would keep going back to. Yeah. Um, and it is a real puzzle to solve, and I think a lot of games do run quite differently. I think depending on your boards, your setup, depending on what characters you pick, but then also you've got the turn order deck from the invaders, so that constantly varies and therefore is constantly a new challenge.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think there is quite a lot of replayability in this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I think the if if you enjoy it, the replayability is huge. Like, it's definitely there. There's all the structure around the the difficulties and scenarios of playing different sort of invaders and all that kind of thing. Like, there's so much there to enjoy, and there's the quite a few spirits in the box. They they you know, there's a lot of variety for people there that that enjoy it. So I think as a shelf life proposition, it's definitely a good one. If if you like it. Like you, yeah, I've I've I think this would be like an evergreen for people that really like it.
SPEAKER_01:I always have to adjust my scores when I've heard what the price is, because I never know that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, fair enough.
SPEAKER_01:So I would probably score it a seven.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, fine. I have given it a six. I think the price board bothers me more than it bothers you on this one. Um, but I do I think it's worth saying and worth you know making absolutely clear that this is something you like, the shelf life is huge. Like you can go on forever. The expansions apparently add a lot more to it. Um, a lot of people, this is one of those games that often comes up in the what game would you play or not play without the expansions debate. Um, but again, the expansions are also quite expensive. So, you know, it's quite a big money proposition. Oh, if you like it, you like it.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So yeah, I gave a six.
SPEAKER_01:Alright, so then onto our final category onto our general uh scoring and fun. Did you have any fun when you played it? Off you go.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no. Yeah, I've got a lot of problems with this one.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I realised I'm gonna say it straight at the start, I know this is a beloved game, and you know, I'm sorry for anybody who gets annoyed by what I'm about to say, but I'm sure if you love it, what I have to say doesn't matter and shouldn't matter. But if you're on the fence, you're probably gonna hear two slightly sort of differing opinions here. And I'll try and articulate as best I can why I don't like Spirit Island. My fundamental problem with it is it feels like the entirety of the game feels like just trying to put out fires. And it feels like you're trying to put out fires with a water pistol. And I don't I don't need every game to be some sort of power fantasy, but I've never felt so deeply ineffectual in a game as this one. I just feel like so much of my time is spent going, oh well, I can't really do anything useful again. And I find that exceptionally frustrating because I I feel like it then just all the tension evaporates. It's just, oh look, everything's fucked again. Oh look, everything's now more fucked. Okay, great. I can't do anything about it, but yeah, now it's just more and it I just that's the cycle of the game for me.
SPEAKER_01:And it's not like we've never won, we've won a few times, but I don't I would just interject and say that was right when we first started playing, and I think we probably got a lot of the rules wrong.
SPEAKER_00:Quite possibly. Who knows? Um, but even then I didn't feel that satisfied with it. It felt like it was just uh nine turns of getting punched in the face and then we suddenly rallied. And I feel like that's the rhythm that always goes, but I just I don't enjoy that just watching everything burn. I I just I like to be able to feel like I'm doing something or having some sort of effect. And I've tried I think all bar one of the spirits now multiple times. And not one of them have I ever felt super effective with. Um or even effective at all. Some of them I felt like I may as well not be there at all. Like and as you touched on in the complexity bit about the luck of the draw with the the card draws, I tend to find that a lot of the power seem to be antithetical when you're going for your innates, and you're then left with the power that doesn't really do much.
SPEAKER_01:I think what's really frustrating is when you go to get a major power, which is a big deal because you obviously have to thin your deck out, you have to trash something, and then you get four loads of cards that just do not work at all.
SPEAKER_00:But I just find there's so many cards that just don't work. That I think that's my problem. That there's so many cards that just don't seem to do anything that warrants using them. Um, and I obviously just not seeing the big picture or whatever, but it it sends my brain to a spiral of frustration. I just I'm I'm like, I'm out, I don't want to do this.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, all the major powers do have big effects and they are all really powerful. It's just it's that synchronicity that I think I sometimes struggle with and adds to that feeling of I'm not being as effectual as I could be. It's interesting that's why I queried you when he said is uh people will min-max this and they'll find out the optimal strategy because I'm not sure that I'm at that point where I know the cards or the deck or anything well enough to be able to do that, but I also imagine people that are into this, as I could imagine me being, would be very much wanting to min-max it, and that's probably yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But I I think for me, I feel like that's the only way to play if you want to get anywhere with it. And that's just not really what I derive enjoyment out of in board games. Like I am the opposite of a min-maxer, I don't I don't enjoy that kind of thing. I don't enjoy sort of pouring over it and going, Oh, I'm every single turn has to be optimal and everything must go this way. And I just it's antithetical to fun, which is this category for me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so I mean, one of the things that I really like about it is that I very much like being able to control board state, always have done. Um and I think that it allows me to do that. So I might not be able to do huge amounts of damage, I might not be able to necessarily uh resolve the tidal wave of colonialists that are coming onto the land, but I am able to control pockets, and that's why I quite get a kick out of it, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:Um I do enjoy that, and you are absolutely right, like it feels like you're losing and you're losing really badly until suddenly you're not.
SPEAKER_02:And usually badly.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and that's usually because you start progressing with your fear deck, and your fear deck every time you turn over a fear card, it gives you quite a powerful effect, but also then becomes easier to win.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so actually, as you then start building that fear engine, that's when things start becoming really quite powerful.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, fine. I fundamentally for me, I just f I don't enjoy the gameplay loop enough to ever warrant putting the time into this that so desperately requires for you to get anywhere with it. I think that's the fundamental thing with me. Um I don't enjoy I don't enjoy the core game. Um mainly because of that general feeling of ineffectualism. I I just don't get on with it at all. I find it more frustrating than enjoyable. If I'm not having fun, why would I play something?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's funny because I think the first three turns, or the first three rounds, should I say, I often feel I am not having fun in those first three rounds. It just feels like it's mad scrambling.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which is normal in the game, I think.
SPEAKER_01:No, but I I find this really, really difficult. Yeah. Um, and then I begin to start getting into a bit of a groove and I begin to start working towards something, but I think by that point you're out.
SPEAKER_00:I think what I found is once you get past that, start to get a little bit of a groove going, but then it comes back ten times worse. And then it's just back to the start again, but worse for me. And it's the same issues I have in the first three rounds, sort of come back again around like eight, nine, and ten, but worse. And then you've got this, you've got all these cards, you spent all this time trying to build your spirit up, and you're still completely ineffectual. And that's that that it's at that point that I'm like, I'm out. Either this is this is just this is annoying me as opposed to being a fun experience.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And it's not about frustration around losing. I will quite happily No, it's not.
SPEAKER_01:You are a very good loser.
SPEAKER_00:Very good loser, and I'm a good co-op loser. I mean, the amount of time that we've bashed our head against the walls and things like Marvel Champions, like that, but I'm having fun, so I don't I don't mind too much. Like, oh dang, we lost again. But it doesn't bother me. This bothers me with a capital B. And I it's not a difficulty thing. I I mean outside the ball game space, I'm a from soft enjoyer, Dark Souls, etc. You know, I like I like hard things, I like bashing my head against something, but I can feel myself getting better, and I can I I I'm enjoying the gameplay loop and I'm enjoying the actual uh act of playing, and I don't in this.
SPEAKER_01:So here's the things that I like about actually playing this that I think is is where we differ. So I like I called it 3D chess earlier, and I like that. I don't think I get the opportunity to play it that much because I'm playing with you. Oh, sorry.
SPEAKER_00:But I like you know just actually throwing darts at the board, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, yeah, and that I think is kind of what you're doing, and and that's how you play, and that's fine. But I really like the idea that you need to start setting things up two turns in advance to be able to deal with the ravages. You can't be dealing with the ravagers, ravages as they're happening. No, you should have dealt with that two turns ago or had a path to that, and I love that, and so I love the interaction between slow powers and fast powers, etc. And I I just think that's that's the depth that people love, and that's the depth that I feel like I could love. If you gave me a chance to play it.
SPEAKER_00:If you had a better husband.
SPEAKER_01:If I had a better Wait, Henry Cavill when you even that's a constant refrain.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know, maybe maybe he wouldn't like Spirit Island either.
SPEAKER_00:Let's hope not, eh?
SPEAKER_01:Um I think if again you're a bit like me, you like to overthink things, uh huh, you like to plan things out three turns in advance, then yes, yeah, this this this will scratch that itch for you.
SPEAKER_00:And yeah, I mean this is not me. I'm not even going to cry and say you go, this is a shit game, it's rubbish. It's obviously not, but it does not work for me in any way, shape, or form, and I have very little fun playing it. And I'm really disappointed because I I I think I wanted to love it, but I I just I can't. I I I don't enjoy it, and there's that constant refrain in life. If you're not enjoying something, stop doing it. So I'm just like, no, I'm not playing it.
SPEAKER_01:But we did get to what, like seven plays?
SPEAKER_00:No, we got a lot more than that. We've got over ten plays thus.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so we did.
SPEAKER_00:We did go with the mile. I'm not gonna start going into the idioms and new thing. Um yeah, we we we did give it a really good try. Like, I I didn't give up, but I'm I am giving up at this point.
SPEAKER_01:Um I'm no under fun, how much did you score?
SPEAKER_00:Three.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. I gave it a seven.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, there you go. Two two differing opinions. Okay, so as ever, we add those up and we average them out, and that gives us an overall general rating of six, which is probably very low for Spirit Island, but probably due to me having a right old person moan about it. Um, if you were more wired like Hannah, it'd be much higher than that.
SPEAKER_01:Right, so let's then talk about our two-player rating scale. So, under the first category, we have table talk and interactivity. And interactivity in general.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I think this is I mean, it's a co-op, so always fairly decent for that. I think there is a fair bit of strategizing to be had, but I think it is one of those games that it's very easy for all the players to get in their own heads. And I found this playing with you that we don't talk as much as we probably should, because I think we're so focused on trying to do what we're meant to be doing that perhaps we drop the ball on trying to marry things up. I think we got better as a at a as time goes on, but I think there is that um you you really need to focus, and it's quite a heady affair. So, how much room that leaves for generalized table talk and planning things out.
SPEAKER_01:There's something about you need to know what your other player can do and can't do, so that you need to then kind of decide what your objective is for that round.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then work out how you're gonna get there. And I think when someone's struggling or not having that much fun, that can be quite difficult to do. And I also think again, you become so focused on what you can do, but that's the point. I think. Yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why we've not had a huge amount of success of it. Is perhaps we haven't had that working at it as a team together.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, perhaps. Perhaps. But I think with a come under the Sunday scalability, with more people comes more problems in this. Um, it's one of those games that I feel like the difficulty scales with how many players you've got quite effectively. And uh you could argue there's like, oh, you're there to sort of fill in the gaps for the what the other person's lacking, but I've never quite found that rhythm with it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and so I think that's what's really interesting because I really like the Earth Golem, which is all about defence, which kind of suits my playstyle. Um, and the idea was that I should be able to kind of hold the fort and defend things while you then bide your time and then do huge amounts of damage. And yet it never really works out that way.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, it never does.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm not and I'm I'm not sure whether that's because we've struggled to find the right combination of characters or whether we've just had bad luck, or you know, it that harkens to your point about too many fires, no, not an effective out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and yeah, and I think that's the thing. You know, you you've got this other person that's there, but it's very difficult because I feel so ineffective, it's difficult to help them out when you can't even get your own stuff under control. I think that's that's also the issue. So it again also feels and that probably affects the the interactivity for me because it all feels a bit hopeless, and I'm just trying desperately to fight my own fire. That I don't, you know, you don't naturally go, oh no, I can help do that, or which goes back to the whole presence argument.
SPEAKER_01:So presence becomes so important because actually I can't help you out on your island if I've got no presence over there. But actually, presence becomes really difficult, and you don't necessarily want to spread yourself too thin because then that means that you can't defend yourself, and once you lose a presence, yeah, it's gone for good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, which is very damaging.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, so yeah, I I do I do think you are constantly talking and you are constantly interacting with each other and trying to sort of work out what better do quite it's all open-handed as well. You don't have to you can be as you know, you can show your class, and I often do. I'm like, oh, but if I did this and stuff. Um and I think you know, if you're gonna play it really well, you probably need to start thinking, well, if I did that, and you have to start kind of calculating out how things will play out in order to be able to mitigate that. Um which I think you need yeah, you need lots of communication to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And it's it's a game that doesn't apply as you say, it it sort of lends itself to it. So yeah, I just think there's that trying to focus too much on yourself thing that can impact this bit negatively.
SPEAKER_01:Equally, if you're not having a huge amount of fun, you Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, I know, but I've tried to take these all sort of objectively as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, I'm not criticizing you particularly, I'm just saying that um because it is really complicated, you do get stuck in your own head.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, you do. Yeah. So you end up being a bit more silent than perhaps you should in something like this. So how did you score it?
SPEAKER_01:Um so I gave it a seven.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I gave it a six.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. All right.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So then on to our cooperative rating, and that includes things like quarterbacking as well. Which I think is really interesting with this because I think it is a complicated game.
SPEAKER_00:I think this is very difficult to quarterback, personally. What do you think?
SPEAKER_01:I could imagine being sat round a table with four players and one person orchestrating the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00:They need a big brain in that head of theirs.
SPEAKER_01:I think my brain's big enough.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, yeah, you're gonna be that person, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think I could be that person.
SPEAKER_00:Right, okay, you go off. Excuse me, uh listeners, I'm just gonna Google local spirit island groups because I want to watch this.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I do I do think you could have somebody, uh particularly if you've got people that are more uh inexperienced with it, I do think that that could be a possibility. I think telling you how to play your class.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's a possibility. I think it's less likely than a lot of co-ops. I I think there's just too much mental overhead.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I might be wrong. Maybe people have had some insanely quarterback spirit idle sessions, but it was just I don't think it's gonna be horrendous, but I do think it's got that possibility. Okay, fair enough. Uh and what how do you feel about a general like co-op the cooperability of it?
SPEAKER_01:Right. So we're gonna disagree on this. I think the only way that you can win this is if you work together.
SPEAKER_00:Oh no, I fully agree.
SPEAKER_01:And so there's a lot of mechanics, so for example, pushing and pulling, so you can push Dahan or explorers, etc., you can pull them towards you as well. So the o and and they you then use them to do damage and generate fear, etc. etc. And the only way you can do that is if you work together in order to be able to achieve that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I think one of the reasons why we struggle is because we don't do that enough.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, possibly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I fully agree. I I don't disagree with anything you said. I think that you have to be very much working as a team if you want to get anywhere with us. I think again, it comes back to sort of the fun issues a little bit with me, where one of the things that I enjoy about a cooperative game is talking through a strategy and seeing it get executed effectively. And it comes back to the lack of effectiveness for me. But again, that's a bug. But uh it is that a problem with this co-operability a little bit for me. But in terms of how well it works as a co-op, fantastically so. I mean, it it it it is, it's it's it's very, very well designed.
SPEAKER_01:Some of the best games that we've had, even though we lost, were where I was able to push and pull, and you had um so you're just able to like engulf them. Scoop them up. So I was just able to like push them towards the coastal regions, and you were just able to scoop them up and get rid of them. And that was foul, and that felt really good when that happened.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it was really good. Yeah, yeah. The one time it happened. Um yeah. No, I I don't I I rate this strongly on uh co-op ability. It's it's a really, really fine co-op experience in terms of the mechanics and the nuts and bolts. It works very, very well. But I have my problems with the co-op side of things, but that's more to do with the fun factor than it is with co-op. Yeah, so what I put is that basically it's really difficult to achieve that yeah, that that synergy where it feels where it feels really good, like you execute something well.
SPEAKER_01:Um and so for that reason I gave it a six. I gave it a six as well. Yeah, it's difficult to achieve.
SPEAKER_00:Similar, similar reason, yeah, it's difficult to achieve that satisfying payoff to your tactical planning. All right.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so our final category under two player is scalability. So uh would it be better with more than two players? Or how well does it play it too, I guess?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, is it is it crying out for more people?
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:I'm not sure. I'm very on the fence about this one. I think w where my concern lies is adding another island with stuff going wrong on it. I uh from my experience, I just feel like that would be completely unmanageable.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean I I would agree with you, yeah, it it it would. Um, but also towards a later game when you get to be able to play more cards and more powers, I think that will then become an overwhelming uh favour inside of perhaps, yeah, you know, for us.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think again, one of the reasons that cooperability thing isn't well executed at two players is because you need more powers in order to be able to achieve that. Maybe you need more people working on short um sorry, fast powers to deal with like the immediate effects, and then you need other people that are looking at two or three turns in advance in order to be able to set the board state up. Yeah. I think that this would sing with four payers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, maybe.
SPEAKER_01:Although it would be an absolute fucking clusterfuck to begin with, it would just be like you're feeling like you're drowning. I think plumb about turn four, five, you'd really begin to hit your stride.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, perhaps you're right. And I think it might be, I think the the thing that stuck out for me is what you just said about having more different spirits around the table. Um, because perhaps then you'll have a much better spread of being able to plug the gaps in each other's games.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, because I did originally just sort of put this right down the middle, like I was like, um, you know, yeah, it might be great, it might not be. But I think that's the thing that that gets me that that perhaps with that greater variety you might have a better time.
SPEAKER_01:And then you think about your short-term goal and your longer-term goal, and actually it's not that the same people can always do the longer-term goals, it it would be about well, who's the best fit for that in that situation, and I think it's that it's that 3D chess thing, isn't it? It's it's you have more people around the table to solve that problem so it allows you to think about it in different ways.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, perhaps.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, or solve it in different ways, should I say?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, uh very, very good point, very well made.
SPEAKER_01:So basically, I want to get rid of you and I want to play with a whole bunch of other guys.
SPEAKER_00:Again, I'll just look for spirit island groups and hot spirit island groups in your local area. Okay, so how'd you score it then?
SPEAKER_01:So two.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, yeah, strong. Uh I went for four. So that gives us an overall two-player rating of five. I think we're all pretty much down the middle, and then you're you you obviously you desperately want more players for this.
SPEAKER_01:Or just a player that isn't you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, or just a player that's not me. Um put an advert out there, that's fine. Okay, so yeah, that was a that was a biggie. Um I'm disappointed that I didn't like as much as I did. I'm disappointed in it, honestly. Like I thought I I thought I would like it a lot more. But um I think I'm probably an outlier. I think I'm probably a a loud voice on uh the outside on this one, and that's fine. Thank you for joining us, and until next time, have fun, be good to each other, play lots of board games.
