How To Break Free From Burnout and Quadruple Your Income With Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid

🎙️ Welcome back to another insightful episode of The Physicians and Properties Podcast with host, Dr. Alex Schloe.

💡 What if the key to transforming your medical career wasn’t more degrees—but more freedom?

In this episode, Dr. Schloe sits down with Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid, a board-certified pediatrician and the founder of Doctoring Differently. After walking away from a traditional pediatrics job, Dr. Naomi has built a flexible, fulfilling, and financially abundant life—quadrupling her income while working on her own terms.

They dive into the world of non-traditional physician work, covering per diem jobs, locums, VA disability exams, expert witness consulting, and even medical aesthetics. If you’ve ever felt trapped by the golden handcuffs of medicine, this episode is your permission slip to pivot—with purpose.

💥 What you’ll learn:

✔️ How per diem and locums work can restore your time, flexibility, and income
 ✔️ What VA disability exams and expert witness work actually look like—and how much they pay
 ✔️ Why medical aesthetics and medical directorships are untapped income streams for physicians
 ✔️ How Dr. Naomi built a six-figure side hustle (and then some!) without leaving medicine behind
 ✔️ Why you don’t need another degree to build the life you actually want
 ✔️ How Doctoring Differently is helping hundreds of physicians break free

🔥 Key Takeaways:

✔️ You don’t need permission to pivot—but if you do, here it is
 ✔️ Financial freedom is about options, not escape
 ✔️ Nonclinical work isn’t failure—it’s strategy
 ✔️ You can build a career that aligns with your values and your bank account
✔️ Your medical license is more valuable than you think—use it differently

If you're a physician craving more autonomy, higher income, and the freedom to doctor on your terms—this episode will blow your mind.

If you want to learn how investing in real estate can give you the freedom to practice medicine and live life how you want then check out the links below:

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Transcript

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: I have found such incredible ways to work and to live as a physician, and by the way, quadruple my income. I told you my starting salary was 125,000 last year.

I cleared 500,000 still as a general pediatrician. As a general pediatrician, and as I told you, spending the summer in Europe and working remotely half the time. And so just seeing that this is so possible despite being told it wasn't, and that's what gets me.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Welcome to the Physicians and Properties Podcast, the show where we teach you how investing in real estate can give you the freedom to practice medicine and live life how you want. Doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor. Now here's your host, Dr. Alex Schloe.

 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Physicians and Properties Podcast. Boy, do we have a super fun episode for you today.  This was an incredible episode with today's guest, Dr. Naomi Lawrence Reed. She is a board certified pediatrician. The founder of Doctoring Differently, she has been doctoring differently and she has made it her mission to help physicians like you and me discover non-traditional clinical and non-clinical jobs that create more flexibility, income, and joy in our lives and careers.

In this episode, we talk about all kinds of different nonclinical paths, such as locums per diem, VA disability exams, expert witness work medical. Botox and aesthetics. So many really cool things that she's doing in so many ways that might be able to help you break the golden stethoscope or break the golden handcuffs, if you will, and practice medicine and live life how you want to.

 So without any further ado, let's get started with today's episode with Dr. Naomi Lawrence Reed.

 Dr. Naomi Lawrence Reed, welcome to the Physicians and Properties Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you for taking the time from sunny San Diego. How are things going?

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: As always, thank you for having me, Dr. Alex.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah, absolutely. Really glad to have you on the podcast. It's been fun following your journey along on Instagram doctoring differently, and it's been really cool to see how you've been doctoring differently. And for example, if I'm not mistaken, you just came back from a locums gig. Is that correct?

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: That is correct. I have been doing locums since pretty full time, since 2019, so it's been about six years and I'll, I'll,  you know, fly somewhere or drive somewhere, come home, you know, but it's been not the heavy lift that I think a lot of residents or early career docs think it is. So happy to get into it more.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Absolutely. We definitely will. That's something we haven't talked about too much on the podcast is locum, so definitely excited to learn more about that. But before we get there, do you mind telling us about your early medical career? How did your path start, and then how did that start in traditional pediatrics.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Right? Sure. So I, I did my residency in New York City, a general pediatrician. I imagined a career, a pretty typical career as a full-time clinical pediatrician. I actually thought I may work in a pediatric er. So I, I moved to San Diego. Right after residency and.  I began working in a pediatric er as you know, hadn't done a fellowship yet, but just was, was working and quickly learned.

This was in my early thirties. Quickly learned that this was just not a career that I could see myself doing for the next. 30, 40 years. I, I, you know, in an, in an er, of course you're working overnights and weekends and holidays and it's just a very, very constant grind. And at the same time being a pediatrician falling to the very bottom of any physician pay scale within I would say two years, I began to start to look up and look around and think, okay, what else is there for me?

Dr. Alex Schloe: Okay. Yeah. And that can be tough too. Kind of that arrival fallacy sometimes of, Hey, you've been through all this training, and then you get there and you get the attending job and you're like, oh, like I'm not as fulfilled as I thought that I was. It sounds like after those couple years you started to explore some more opportunities outside of like full-time clinical medicine.

What, what did those look like or what initially drove your interest to get started looking at some, some more atypical avenues.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Yeah, that's a a great point. You know, when I started to have that, that itch you know, talking to my friends, my colleagues, my classmates, you know, it was, well, their advice was, you gotta do a fellowship or, you know, go get that MBA or go do an anesthesia fellowship or something else. You know, they, the answer always seemed to be more education, more, more.

You know, more fellowships, more degrees. And I, that just didn't feel right to me. I, I thought I've done, I gave my whole twenties to this. I've given my whole life up until now to this, but more education doesn't feel like the answer. And in fact, it makes it, it, to me, it felt like. I'd be even more stuck if I can say, in a very conventional academic center, full-time position kind of still on the wheel.

So, you know, if I I'll describe kinda my, my aha moment or I'd like to call it my villain origin story. In that I went into my shift in that PZR, they as many ERs have a small back office for charting for doctors. Two desk, two chairs, two computers, and I walked into that room in the chair that was available, the armrest was broken off and there were just shards of metal, you know, shooting up.

 And I, you know, there's a little post-it note from someone had written it, said, ad administration is aware, you know, we're working on it. We got you. And I thought, okay. So I do my whole shift, I chart with my arm, you know, tucked against my flank, so I'm not impaled. I see my patients write my notes, do my shift leave.

I come back the next day or the day after expecting to find, you know, a new chair. But instead, administration had wrapped diapers around the. Shards of metal that were protruding from the chair.  And I, I stood there for, you know, maybe about 10 to 20 seconds. And in that moment, my, the months and the years of, of discontent of, you know, non-negotiable salaries of, you know, the feeling like I was not going to really ascend in this department.

It just all came to me at that moment and I, I knew where I stood, you know, I felt the level, quite frankly, the disrespect was so loud in that moment. Now, that wasn't my office, it was the office of all of us. Right. But it, it really landed with me in a very uncomfortable way, and I submitted my letter of resignation that night.

Dr. Alex Schloe:  Wow. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. I feel like a lot of us have the, the broken chair moments and, and similar stories where it's like something as simple as just replacing a chair is all that it would take have taken to show you some degree of respect, which you absolutely earned it. And there's little things like that that are happening all across the healthcare system.

And I'm glad that you had the courage to submit your resignation and be like, Hey, I'm not, I'm not gonna put up for this. You know, if they can't take care of their chairs, how are they gonna take care of you? And how are they gonna take care of patients well too? That's the other thing that's pretty, pretty sad.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: These are, these are hospital systems. This one has a, a billion dollar, billion dollar annual, you know revenue stream. So it, it just, it, it felt time. Now, I'll tell you this is, I want, you know, my story to be visibility for. People who don't have a plan, doctors who don't have a plan.

We love a good plan. We want a nice, clean, long runway that we can see to the end. But in that moment, after seeing that chair, I knew I had to resign and I didn't have a great. Plan. I didn't have any plan. I just knew that I couldn't stay there. At the time I was 33. I had student loans. I had almost 200,000 of student loans.

I was renting a small one bedroom apartment driving my med school. Corolla. Loved her dearly, but that I, I didn't see any way beyond my current situation. But at the same time, I was so unhappy and felt so disrespected that I just figured, you know, I've got this medical degree, medical license. We're gonna figure it out.

And what that next step looked like for me was ultimately going per diem, which is not. A wild thing, but to tell my friends and classmates and colleagues that I was going per diem, you would've thought I was, you know moving to Bali to, I don't know, be a scuba diver. I, it was like, it felt so foreign and so off of our usual, you know, career trajectory.

Nurses go per diem. Doctors don't do that. Or if they do, they better have a very good reason for it. But it was just, I. Need to pay these bills. I have a degree that can allow me to do so. I'm going to leave this institution and stay in my town, stay in my community, but just work, you know, hourly. No, no obligation to the department.

I can find my own health insurance, but I can, and I can still practice clinically in the specialty that I'm trained to, and in a fa in familiar work. So that was just the absolute best thing that I did. So for doctors who might think, I can't quit this job, you know. You all, whatever you're doing there is a way out and a way through.

For me, it was simply going per diem I I, that it changed everything and it allowed me to actually breathe. And I think my cortisol levels went down and I was able to just see.  You know, understand what, what I wanted out of this career. And I know that might sound all, you know, a little kind of fru, but it's so true.

We never get a chance to actually think about what we want and how we wanna work and live. We're always told exactly what the path is, what we're supposed to do, what we have to do. But going per diem allowed me to actually take a, a step, a breather and consider my next step even after that.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That is awesome. Yeah, I didn't even know a whole lot about per diem jobs or that they even existed. And then one popped up here in Colorado Springs and through, through a bigger healthcare system here. But I was like, you know what, lemme just. Look into this and 'cause I'm also looking for that flexibility and the freedom to work on real estate ventures.

And then I'm probably gonna work part-time at a direct primary care practice. And so I was like, lemme just see what this is like and then maybe I'll just use this to kind of supplement here and there.  And anyways, long story short, they were telling me about it. I'm like, this sounds amazing. They're like, yeah, you can work as many shifts as you want or as few shifts as you want, and we're gonna pay you x amount of dollars.

It's 10 99. I hope that's okay. I am like, that sounds great. I can be my own boss and do what I want and not be on call. And so I'm, I'm really looking forward to that. So, yeah, per diem, maybe something, but it wasn't really marketed. I

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: no, it never

Dr. Alex Schloe: line somewhere and I was like, I'm just gonna call and see what happens.

And then it led to, to the job. And so for folks who are out there, you know, thinking about it, it can be a really good way to still make pretty good money. It, I mean the, the crazy thing is with this job, if I worked 10 shifts a month, I would make my Air Force salary.

 That's exactly, exactly. I never once, I never once dropped below my full-time salary working per diem. And by the way, they ask you,  Hey, would you like to work this weekend? Would you like to work this holiday? And you can say, no.  We're not used to being, we are voluntold to do things and we're not used to having even that option to say no.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: But even having that option felt like. Such a win. It was a great first step and I'm, by the way, you just displayed a great point that I teach a lot of my students about, which is just pick up the phone, call, inquire even if it, you know, a lot of people, you wanna wait till you see that perfect high paying job that's fully remote and then you'll maybe call if you meet all the qualifications.

But if you see something that even slightly interests you, it costs nothing to pick up the phone and call and ask. So great

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah.  Absolutely. Well, thank you. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I think too, you know, if some folks listen to this are probably thinking, well I wanna start like a direct primary care practice or, or I want to do concierge medicine or something else that requires some time in building up a practice Like this is a great way where you can build up your practice, still have some good income coming in, and that that's, but still have the flexibility and the time to do that.

And so I think it's a really great opportunity. So thanks for

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Point. Yeah, great point. It doesn't have to be, I quit my full-time clinical job right now and I just step out and I'm now a full-time entrepreneur or full-time pursuing an adventure. There can be a, a nice ramp. Up ramp down to your next, you know, as you are growing your next venture, whatever it is.

And having, and the best part about per diem jobs is there's no non-compete. You can have as many if you know, if you're someone who's worried about oh, well I have enough shifts in a month to cover my bills, if you know you're in a community that has multiple practices, hospitals or clinics, you could have multiple per diem contracts.

And just. Pick, you know, if one is, doesn't need you as much, go to the other one. I mean, it's, there's just the variety and the flexibility is, I think, paramount and, and having, at least at the beginning of some sort of career transition, having a, a good per diem in the bag is a great place to start. But I've, I've spoken enough about per diem.

I think your listeners know now how I feel that, that, that I'm a big, big fan.

Dr. Alex Schloe: I agree. I agree. I'm looking forward to it. It'll be a couple months before I start there, but looking forward to having that flexibility for sure.  Well per diem, love that. What are some other kind of atypical medical paths that you've gone down or, or learned about or teach about?

 Right. So Locums was the next one. And I'll tell you you know, as a pediatrician in the, I, I trained in New York City locums was a bad six letter word. And my administration, residency admin. Directly told us, do not pick up the phone when they call. Do not respond, do not engage.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: They are so pushy. You'll, before you know it, you will be you know, working a three month shift in Arkansas. And in my mind, you know, I, I've, I'm from the east coast, northeast, I live in California. I thought that Locums was only a states or states that begin with a, and there's absolutely no shade to states that begin with a, but they were always just very far from where I lived.

And that was my assumption of where.  All locums was, it was, you know, very rural. It would've taken, you know, three flights and a train and a bus to get there. But you know, I think we all, I mean by the time you're a second year resident, you're getting calls and phone calls, texts, you're, how do they get my number?

And they're starting to reach out and they may mention big numbers.  And maybe you'll hear from one.  You know, or maybe you see small numbers either way. I think if you're primary care, you may see numbers you don't like from, from recruiters. But soon after I started going per diem and again, just had a second to breathe and, and be and live and pay my bills, but not be going, going, going, I.

Called a recruiter back, or I answered the phone when she called and just had a conversation and ended up, I, you know, I told her, I was like, I'm in California. I'm, I don't wanna get another medical license at this point. I. But I feel like this is a big state and I should be able to find something here.

And it took a few conversations back and forth, but I was able to find a locums gig, or she was, she presented one that was a three hour drive from where I lived in San Diego. Initially, again, I've over time negotiated higher and higher rates, but at the time, I was making more in. A couple of in a week, then I was making in two months at my old job I was, you know, able to make, let's see, $2,000 a day flat.

There are a few different ways of, of how these pay structures can go. But, you know, at, at the time I was able to make $2,000 a day with a $200 an hour for any, any callback or any working in the. Hospital, you know, malpractice covered, travel covered and a 10 99 as you described. So as a 10 99, you're able to enjoy the world of tax deductions if you have your own kind of corporation, as you know, much better than a W2.

So over the course of the years, I was able to, you know, really pay back my loans and, and enjoy a really good lifestyle for me where I would just go, go away for maybe a week. Work straight but then come home and have the rest of the month my bills paid and then some. And then that kind of opened the door of my curiosity to say, okay, now what else can I do?

One of those next were was veteran and disability exams, and you mentioned that you are soon to separate from the Air Force. Congratulations. Thank you for your

Dr. Alex Schloe: Thank you.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: I, I am not military. Had no, I have no military in my family, despite living in Southern California where there is such a military presence.

I really didn't know much about it.  And I connected with a friend on a, a friend, a past kind of colleague that I'd met. Reconnected with her on LinkedIn. She was a family medicine physician. And I was seeing all of this on, on her LinkedIn. I was seeing all this veteran work and I thought, no, I thought she was, you know, family medicine had in the clinic up in Oceanside and, i, I picked up the phone and we connected. Her husband was a 22 year retired marine vet and she decided to, you know, kind of pool their knowledge and start doing veteran disability exams and I. I then joined them and began doing veteran disability exams. Really just out of kind of curiosity, and I'm not gonna lie, a little bit of boredom.

I was making so much at Locums and I had nothing to do when I was back home. And so I thought Sure. She was so excited about it and I began doing it at the beginning of 2020. Two. Yes, that sounds right. And nope. 21, the beginning of 21 and January. And it was, you know, I was very, by that point, I had not touched.

An adult in, in, in a, in a clinical sense, in 10 years. I pediatrician, right? I, I, I just hadn't it, these are nonclinical, non-diagnostic, non-treatment exams veterans, you know, they, they, they themselves you know, file their claims of what, you know, an ailment and injury that they may have sustained or got worse in service.

 And then as a physician, a third party physician, they military physicians cannot do this work. They need a, you know, impartial third party. We. Assess the claim. We are presented with their medical records. We can corroborate any x-rays or imaging or visits that happened in service. We'll do a brief physical exam.

These are often musculoskeletal claims, so it's range of motion, maybe it's measuring a scar and kind of completing a questionnaire and returning it to the, to the va. So again. It's, it's nine to five, or not even, I'd say probably nine to two. It is again, nonclinical. The veterans are so friendly and polite.

I think initially I thought this might be, there might be, you know, hardened war vets with a, you know, a prosthesis slung over their shoulder. It's not that at all. It, it has been just wonderful. Very, very nice. You know, American service members who have served our country. Some have been deployed, some not, some have stayed domestic, but all with great stories.

And ironically, I feel like it's made me a better pediatrician. I really enjoy just talking to them and, and, and hearing their stories, but also a reintroduction to, you know, what medicine looks like in their age demographic as well.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That is cool. Yeah. It's the c MP exams. Everyone has to go through 'em when they're, when they're separating or retiring. So you automatically have that population built in of like, Hey, you have to do this. So there's plenty of opportunity there from that perspective. And, and correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause Yeah, you're you're exactly right.

I had nothing to do with them when I was active duty. I had to go through one myself as, as I was separating. They're pretty intensive, few hours long. But I, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think you're paid based off complexity and then based off like the amount of time you spend with a patient.

Is that correct or is it just based off hourly.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Well. I, I, I think neither, at least for me. But no, I don't think you're wrong. I think that it just depends on the avenue you take. There are staffing agencies, there are medical groups.  There are just a few ways to access veteran disability. I'll tell you the way that I am compensated in the medical group I work for, work with I am paid.

Per veteran per claim. So actually the complexity of the claim does not matter at all. It's whether it's a claim or not. It could be a claim of migraine headaches. It could be a claim for, you know prostate cancer. It doesn't matter what the claim is. But I'm paid per veteran per claim. So I, if I see one veteran who has one to two claims, I will.

You know, I could probably knock off that in 15 minutes, but I'd be paid I think $130 for that. But if it's a veteran who say, has 15 claims, a, a new separation as, as you just described, you know, that could be a visit that takes longer more documentation, more chart review, and that I'd be compensated about $700.

So that is the difference. But staffing agencies love to pay. I would advise if anyone is doing veteran and disability, you do not wanna be paid hourly. Definitely not because, because that, that you will be shortchanged and undercut, but you may not even know that there are other options. But, but the way I prefer, the way that I, this the way that I worked is, does it?

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah, the, the way that you mentioned it is the way that I understood it too. You just said it with a lot more elegance than than how, how I asked. The question. But that's, yeah, that's exactly right. That's how I've heard it as well. And it's kind of a win-win for, for the veteran as well too, right?

The, the provider's incentivized to really go through your claims and to try and, you know, help you get as much disability as you can and, and vice versa. So that is awesome. I did

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: and I'll, and I'll say I'll,  oh, sorry. I just wanted to say you as the provider are not in charge of determining whether the veteran gets the claim or not, so I just wanna that that is not on us. You just are very objective with what you find in your questionnaire and it is the VA who determines the rating, so it is not up to the physician.

 You stole the words outta my mouth. That's what I was gonna say.  The other interesting thing I'll say then is that I learned that actually in order to get a disability claim for hypertension, they do not look at the systolic number. They look at the diastolic because the, the veterans were going and running around the clinic before their vitals check and then coming in and getting their blood pressure checked.

 I mean, I'm sure you saw a lot of crazy stuff

 Well, they stopped. They would stop taking their meds a week before their visit and that also not recommended.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I won't don't get me started on some of my thoughts on VA

 sure, sure. There's a lot.  Right, right, right. There's

yeah. Yeah. But grateful to have served. I'm grateful for everyone who has served, for sure. Awesome. So, so we, we talked about per diem, we talked about locum, we talked about VA.

Am I missing anything? Anything else you'd like to add?

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Yeah, I could. I mean, I, in the interest of time, I've, I've done a lot, as you can tell. I kind of got, I got, I got the, I got the bug of what else didn't they teach us?  What else is available to us? They would've had me doing a three year GI fellowship when instead I'm having so much fun doing all of these other things.

I am more than quadrupling my salary when I was. A full-time pediatrician where my starting salary in 2014 was $125,000. And I, you know, I, and I was told that was the best I'd ever get. That's just, you know, the peds, la, la, la, la. And I thought, no. No. And so for all of these different things that I am describing and mentioning, and oh, by the way, you know, even with Locums, my last contract, I was able to negotiate $3,200 a day flat.

I've had ones that were even some days if I was doing clinic and I was in and out, you know, if there was a lot going on, I've had $4,200 days. So, so it's, my point is this can be cumulative. These things can add up. In, in 2024, I had. Two, six figure months, just kind of stacking all of these things on top of each other.

They were, you know, somewhat busy, but the fact that I even could do it was amazing. And then I turned around and took, you know, three months off. I took the summer off, went to the Olympics, had a great time. So I just wanna give that, that, that, you know, kind of unlatching my, perception of what a real doctor job looks like, that it doesn't mean I go to one clinic every day.

Someone tells me where to be, what time to be there, gives me my schedule. The, the way of working this way really can be, be tenable for anyone. But as I said, in the interest of time, I'll just talk quickly about two more. One is, one is expert witness work or being a physician expert witness, which I think our minds immediately go to a episode of Law and Order, SVU and someone's sitting on a stand and of wood all over the courtroom and an angry lawyer slamming his, you know, hand on the, on the, on the wood in front of you and telling you you didn't go to med school.

It's. I, it is not that.  I just know that that's where my mind goes there. And then it, and then we also think that it's always malpractice. That that is the only intersection between law and medicine. And that is not true. I'd say in many civil cases.  The civil cases that I've worked on, I've been doing this work about four years.

Less than 30% of the cases I've worked on have been malpractice.  Most of them are simple kind of liability. For instance I worked on a case where you know, two families living next to each other. It might have been military housing and one family's dog, but the other family's child on the face.

So she had to go to the er, and then she went to plastics, and then she went to her pediatrician. So at the end of it, there was a stack of medical records. And you know, this is, you know, we know how to read these records, but these are lawyers, this, they don't know. So they just needed a pediatrician to translate into fifth grade, eighth grade English.

What happened and what the course was. They weren't, you know, none of the physicians who treated. The child were at fault or even suspected of being at fault. It was just tell us what happened. And I was able to do that to the tune of $600 an hour.  So that is the type, there's, there is a lot of money and people will pay a lot  for our expertise.

But we unfortunately are conditioned. To, you know, what? We, the offers that we get through clinical medicine have, have shaped the way that we you know, imagine what, imagine what our, our, our time, our energy, and our expertise are worth.  And that is why we are, you know, shunted into these full-time clinical jobs, hit with non-competes so that we never really, truly see the value of our degree.

But I am charging six and seven and $800. An hour to opine on some of these cases. Some are, some as a pediatrician, I've, I've worked on a child abuse case. I've worked on  some other types of cases. But I, I recognize, listen, these cases are happening with or without me. I'm. Coming down as a person of honesty and integrity, whatever I say, on either side, it will be the same.

And I have worked on, on both sides of malpractice cases as well. So, you know, it might by, I wouldn't have wanted to start on malpractice, but after a few years of getting used to it and kind of understanding the lay of the land, being an expert witness is, I also think has made me a much better physician.

I've worked on cases where you know, six months later I have an exact same type of child with the same condition in front of me and, but I was paid $600 an hour to research and read and write about that case. And here I am.  You know, putting it all to use into action. So I think that, that, I think within, you know, five years outside of training, any physicians should start considering, you know, being open to this kind of work.

It's a lot of reading and writing, by the way. It's reading charts, it's emails and it's potentially writing a report sometimes. But it's honestly a lot of fun. It's like putting, it's like a puzzle. It's fun.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That does sound fun. 

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Stimulating. Yeah.

Dr. Alex Schloe: yeah. Yeah. And it exposes you to new and interesting things, I'm sure all the time. And the pay sounds great too, to be honest. So, yeah. Yeah. And

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: that one is

Dr. Alex Schloe: it remote.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: ex. Exactly. It is. I have not seen a single lawyer in person. In fact, last summer I was working on a, on a big case last year. I, I knew. From the beginning, I, it was going to trial, so that was not a surprise. But I'd been doing, again, I'd been doing this for a few years and I knew, I was like, okay, you know, I'm ready.

I can do this.  But by the time they told me the trial date, I already had my trip to Europe planned, and I was there for six weeks over the summer. So I told them, I said, listen, I, I'm happy to, you know, be an expert if it can be done remotely, but. You're telling me this date a little late and I already have my, my summer plans.

So I testified remotely via Zoom for a San Diego district court from ho Well, it was, it actually went two days. So the first day I was in Vienna, Austria, and the second day I was in London.  And I'm sitting there with like, you know, blazer up top and shorts on the bottom and, being paid $700 an hour to, to talk about this case.

But also I was over, I knew this was coming, so I was reading and writing and doing things kind of throughout my summer, you know, a few hours a day maybe, and being paid an incredible rate. So through, through traveling over around Europe last August, working on this case, I earned $20,000, not in the United States.

You know,  I, I feel very blessed. I feel very blessed that, that I was able, that, that, you know, happened and it can happen for any of us. Yeah.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Wow. Absolutely. Well, that is awesome. What a cool way to travel, get paid and it sounds like ha still have the freedom to explore and do all the things that you wanted to do while you were traveling. So I would imagine hopefully that paid for a good chunk, if not all of your trip. Which is cool.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, and, and another thing about, you know, both this work and veteran disability work, these are nonclinical. So you are not restricted to your state of licensure. You have an active state medical license in any state.  You can participate in this work across state lines. So locums per diem, yes, you need, you need that medical, you need that medical degree for that state that you're practicing in.

But a lot of this nonclinical work. State, state, state licensure is not significant in that way. Okay.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Wow, that is good to know.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Yes, and the last one I I'll tell your listeners about is probably somewhat ubiquitous and I think that. Has ha they've all heard of it. And that is aesthetics, that's Botox and filler practices.

I'll say in 2017 I was at a dinner party and a friend's dad is a s I think he was a cardiovascular surgeon in Iowa. He's, you know, sitting around and saying, Hey, you guys should, you know, looking at me and some of these other younger doctors saying, you guys should start a Botox and filler practice.

And I looked at him so indignant and I said, I'm a real doctor. I would not ever. Do such a thing.  And he is like, he's like chuckles to himself. And he said, listen, listen, I get it. He said, but you're in Southern California. He's like, I'm, I'm doing great in Iowa, like of all places. And it, it, I thought about it and I, I went back to him a little while later and I thought, you know, but I'm a pediatrician, you know, I'm not der or plastics.

And he said, you su your kids' faces in an er. That's harder. That is harder than the, than than this. And I said, you know, you have a point. So I ended up just taking a little an afternoon class. A lot of the, the. There are some classes that are mobile that travel we'll come to a city, rent out a ballroom at an Omnia hotel, you know, bring in plastic surgeons or derm and really do a couple hours didactic, couple hours of hands-on practice.

And, and then I thought, you know, this is kind of fun, you know, some of my friends are asking about this. I was in my mid thirties at the time we were thinking about it. Again, I'm in Southern California, which is the hub of such, I think, I don't wanna call it vanity, but just awareness of one's face. Long story. Long story short, I began, I began a, a small concierge, you know, boutique aesthetics practice. And I thought eventually I would turn it into, you know, a, a, maybe a med spa, some sort of brick and mortar.  But a couple years into it, you know, as you've also. Can tell. I, I do a lot of different things and I like that I do a lot of different things and I thought opening a med spa is doing one thing and that's not me.

So I continued to just work the way I work, which is friends and family. Not really marketing, but enjoying it and you know, people having parties and people telling friends. So I was. Still was earning about I'd say about six to 7,000 a month just by word of mouth from these parties.  But again, it wasn't anything I could say I loved doing.

 But in the, in the process, I came across a few nurse practitioners who wanted to start their own practices, which I wanted to mention this because I'm sure a lot of your listeners have also. Potentially been approached by nurse practitioners or PAs about becoming a medical director and many of us you know, tense up and immediately shut it down because how terrifying to have your someone else working under your license, despite the fact that that often Without us even knowing it at these big hospitals. But that's another, another episode. So I initially had that thought too, like, well, I didn't go into this just to be a medical director, but I had some coffee, some conversation with this, this one woman initially, and she had been. Doing this longer than me.

She had, she was so smart, so motivated, taking courses, you know, it's kind of like if you're going to the er, are you asking the doctor to put in your IV or are you asking the nurse who does it 40 times a day? And it, it's the same if you were to go to a, a plastics or derm office, probably not the doctor doing the Botox.

It's probably a, a nurse or someone else. So. I developed a level of trust with this woman and I eventually agreed to be her medical director. And so now I've, you know, kind of honed my skills and, and, and, and meeting these. Often women who are looking for medical directors and you know, we're reviewing their charts.

I understand their education, they know their limits, they know I'm close, they know what to do. We've written orders. We've written the, the, like I said, the consents, the physical exam.  And so this is something that is somewhat passive income to be able to be their medical director for their. Small practices and I charge them a thousand dollars a month to be their medical director.

So that is somewhat passive, but it is just a way, I'd say if, if you have been approached or any of your listeners have been approached, i, I think that there's absolutely space in the State of California. Nurse practitioners still do need, for now need physician oversight. I know in some states they can work independently, entirely by themselves but in California, they still do need a physician to oversee them.

And so I think that they, they, there it can be a relationship there, it can be profitable for both of you.  And it can be a, a great, I think, learning experience and learning tool.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Wow. That is awesome. Yeah, you, you have definitely done doctoring differently. And it's really, really cool to see. ' cause I feel like a lot of times. You know, folks feel trapped. They feel that golden stethoscope, they feel like they can't escape. And so, you know, it's, it's really cool to see and learn about these, these options.

I remember when we first started talking about doing the podcast, you were like, oh, I don't have a lot of real estate experience. I don't have a lot of value to add. And I was like, no, please come on the podcast. 'cause no one has talked about this stuff before. And I have learned so much. So this is awesome.

So you have been doctoring differently. You started doctoring. Differently. Tell us a little bit more about that and how folks can reach out to you and connect.

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Cool. Well, thank you so much again for, for having me. And you're right. When I saw, you know, properties in real estate, I was like, oh, that's not me. But, but you know, you're absolutely right. I have found such incredible ways to work and to live as a physician, and by the way, quadruple my income. I told you my starting salary was 125,000 last year.

I cleared 500,000 still as a general pediatrician. As a general pediatrician, and as I told you, spending the summer in Europe and working remotely half the time. And so, so just seeing that this is so possible despite being told it wasn't, and that's what gets me. So it was in 2020 near the end where I was doing about four of the things I've, I've talked about this.

These past few minutes, and by the end of 2020, I'm looking around like I'm doing really good. I didn't know at the beginning, I didn't know what 2020 was gonna look like for me. I'm on the very edges of a quote unquote real, you know, doctor job. But I thought, you know. I've really figured something else out here.

And so I'm trying to call my classmates and colleagues and I'm ranting on their voicemails and I, I was like, you can do other things. Let me tell you what you can do. And then I thought, this is not an effective way to teach and, and convey all of this knowledge, not only the things that I do, but you know, getting malpractice insurance and, and getting your own health insurance and what to, how to think about your retirement plan and like those things that really do keep good doctors and bad jobs.

Those. Not, not mentioning, not knowing what else is out there, but what about my health insurance? What about my kids? What about this? Like, and all of those things kind of close in and we stay. So I thought, you know.  Maybe I make a course, no, I'm not an actual educator, but I've gone to school long enough. I know how these things go.

So I, I created a six week curriculum on a whiteboard in my, in my condo. And I just started, you know, thought, okay, let me start with. Big picture. You have permission. Let me tell, like, like I'll tell you just that permission thing is big for us. You have permission to do other things. There are no rules to this career.

You've been told there are rules. I know I was too. But in fact, you can go per diem, you can do locums, you can do new things.  And then the second week, all the, all the clinical things I talk about, which are per diem and locums and independent telemedicine and even DPCI teach about now.  The third week I get into.

All of the non clinicals and all of the things I've talked about plus so many more I talk, I then was like, you know what, lemme teach about resignation. We don't know how to resign and it's scary. How to write a resignation letter, how to bridge the gap to your next opportunity. And then how to negotiate actually how to talk to a recruiter like these are, as we talked about with veteran disability, there are many ways that that compensation can work and we don't know.

We don't know what they are, so we don't know how to negotiate, we don't know what our power is there.  So doing a whole module on, on having these negotiation conversations as well. So that in August of 2021 was when the first doctoring differently cohort of students came through of physicians across the country.

And so now I've been teaching this for. Almost four years I've recorded the course. So it's a, a, a digital, almost nine hour course, and I rec, I update it often with all of these lessons and modules about each of the things that we've talked about on the program and and so much more. So that's what doctoring differently is we have monthly q and As.

 Where the whole community gets together. I may give a short lesson, but I'm, we're also answering each other's questions and, and, and new things We find out, new things we've done, successes negotiation, successes you know, we talk about and, and share. And it's been physicians of all specialties. I'll tell you, it's been amazing to watch.

We are all the same ultimately.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's amazing.  Awesome. Yeah, I, it's so cool to, to just see what amazing things you're doing, see what other things that physicians are doing. It just really opens your eyes to all the possibilities that are out there. And gives you insight into like, Hey, this is what I need to do. This is how I can do it.

There's other people who have done this before and getting in the right rooms is so huge and so it's awesome that you're offering that for folks.  What's the best way for folks to follow you or or to reach out and learn more? Is that through social media or?

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Yes, they can find me at, at doctoring differently on Instagram, on Twitter or x on Facebook as well. And then they can go to doctoring differently.com and that's where you can find all of, all of the insights, all of the things I talk about and, and join. Join the course. Join the community.

This is where it's at. This is where you start. You don't have to have.  The, the long runway necessarily. You don't have to have all of the answers before you maybe resign or make a change in your career, but come get the exposure and the education, and the knowledge and the community. All right here.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's amazing. We'll be in, we'll be sure to include all the links in the show notes for doctoring differently and how you can reach Dr. Naomi Lawrence Reed. This has been awesome. Any parting shots? Anything you want to add before we wrap things up?

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: Just want your listeners to know there are no rules, so if you've been thinking to yourself, I, I can't quit. I have to stay full time. You don't, there are so many options available to you and you don't need permission, but if you do, here it is. You have permission. If you wanna do something new, explore something new.

You've heard the things I'm saying.  You hear the things that  Alex is talking about on this podcast every week, all of these investment opportunities, and maybe you're sitting on the sidelines and thinking, ah, it's too risky. Oh, I don't know. You're,  you're still going through it in your head, you know? You know, get to a place where you can do it.

I promise you can. You know, we're living, we're learning, but we're making educated choices and you can do anything you want.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That sounds amazing. I'll add one more thing to it that I think will be helpful. Worst comes to worst. Say doctoring differently does not work out.  You can always go back to your clinical job. So your, your, your biggest fear is your present day reality

Dr. Naomi Lawrence-Reid: That's true. It's true. And I'll tell you, I, I think doctrine differently is so successful because I am still doing the things, as I told you,  I just left a locum shift. So I teach about locums, but it's not like, oh, I did it once 10 years ago.  I'm still doing and negotiating and growing and learning.

So this is a very live and active and a living group. So, and I know yours is as well, so thanks for what you do. I'm learning so much from, from your podcast and your platform, so thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Awesome. Thank you so much. Well, hey, it's been, it's been awesome. And with that we'll wrap things up. It's been Dr. Naomi Lawrence Reed and Dr. Alex Lowe with another episode of the Physicians and Properties Podcast signing off.

 Hey, real quick, if you're still listening to this, I'm assuming you got value from it, so I need your help. Specifically, my two year vision with this podcast is to help 100,000 physicians learn how investing in real estate can give you the freedom to practice medicine and live life how you want. There are two main ways that a podcast grows.

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