How To Recognize And Address Burnout Early In Your Medical Career With Dr. Joe Sherman

🎙️ Welcome back to another impactful episode of The Physicians and Properties Podcast with host, Dr. Alex Schloe.

💡 What if the key to thriving in medicine wasn’t pushing harder—but aligning your work with your values and rediscovering who you are beyond the white coat?

In this episode, Dr. Schloe sits down with Dr. Joe Sherman, a board-certified pediatrician with 37+ years of experience serving underserved and medically complex children in the U.S., Uganda, Bolivia, and beyond. From the inner city of Washington, D.C., to mission hospitals overseas, Dr. Sherman’s journey is a powerful testament to purpose, resilience, and the courage to change course when burnout takes hold.

They explore his international medical work, the identity shifts physicians face, and how self-compassion and coaching can help doctors reclaim joy and meaning in their careers. Dr. Sherman’s wisdom offers a lifeline for any physician feeling trapped, exhausted, or unsure of their next step.

💥 What you’ll learn:
✔️ How cross-cultural medicine can transform your perspective and practice
✔️ Why volunteering can be a powerful preventative for burnout
✔️ The early warning signs of burnout—and how to address them before they escalate
✔️ How self-compassion rewires your brain and fuels long-term well-being
✔️ Practical coaching strategies for physicians feeling stuck in their current roles
✔️ Why holding onto your core identity matters more than any title or position

🔥 Key Takeaways:
✔️ Burnout isn’t a personal failure—it’s a call to realign with your values
✔️ Physicians need intentional outside support to sustain their well-being
✔️ Mission work can reignite passion and purpose in medicine
✔️ Self-compassion is a skill that can be learned and practiced daily
✔️ Your career should serve the life you want—not the other way around

If you’re ready to protect your joy in medicine, rediscover your purpose, and create a career that reflects who you truly are—this episode is for you.

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Transcript

Dr. Joe Sherman: The role where my soul matches what I'm doing in the moment, and when I have that sense of peace or that sense of excitement or that sense that, boy, I can't wait to do that again. That holds the key to the elements of who you are. Not so much what you do, but who you are, what your values are. What it is that makes you unique and special and also what I believe you were meant to, to do on this earth.

 Dr. Alex Schloe: Welcome to the Physicians and Properties Podcast, the show where we teach you how investing in real estate can give you the freedom to practice medicine and live life how you want. Doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor. Now here's your host, Dr. Alex Schloe.

 Hello everyone. Welcome to the Physicians and Properties Podcast. Today I am honored to have Dr. Joe Sherman on the podcast. He actually graduated from the same medical school as me a few years before, and is a board certified pediatrician. He's got 37 plus years of experience. He's worked with underserved and medically complex children in the United States.

 In Uganda,  in Bolivia, and he has an incredible personal journey that he's gonna share with us today about burnout, perfectionism, anxiety, and how he transitioned that into coaching and physician wellbeing advocacy.  Really excited to have  Dr. Joe Sherman on the podcast. Joe, is there anything that you'd add to that introduction?

I know that was not enough to do justice, but grateful to have you here.

Dr. Joe Sherman: That was perfectly concise and right on the button. Thank you very much, Alex.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Awesome. Well, it's great to have you here all the way from Seattle and like we were talking about beforehand, it's always so cool to connect with other docs from from MCV now VCU School of Medicine and and just learn about the awesome things that people are doing that started there. So do you mind just giving us a little context about your path?

Pediatrics and what, what drew you into working with underserved communities?

Dr. Joe Sherman: Sure. First of all, my, my path into medicine really arose from several factors. One is I grew up in the city of Washington, DC and was the youngest of seven kids. Part of it was trying to find a profession that.  My older siblings were not interested in and did not pursue a little bit of a competitive edge in my family.

So that's part of it. The other part is that  I found from an early age that I really enjoyed accompanying other people through coaching, sports and tutoring and different activities such as that, and did have one experience.  A cousin when I was a teenager who had  myocarditis this kind of idiopathic myocarditis as a young kid as 12 years old, and I would go visit him at the hospital when I was a teenager and became kind of interested in what was going on around I think I would've paid more attention to.

Why I really enjoyed being there, which was more about being with him and accompanying him rather than so much of the science that was going on around. But  all of it interested me. And then going to college, I studied biomedical engineering mostly because it's kind of like if you don't get in medical school, you need a plan B, and  engineering was my plan B.

And but it also was a great pre-medical major to have. And then moving on to medical school. It was really there, I think in Richmond, Virginia, and you know, the population of VCUs Hospital. Is predominantly an inner city population, would you always get referrals from all over the state? Really?

 However,  the bread and butter patients that we took care of, both when I was in medical school, as well as staying on there for three years of pediatric residency, were mostly inner city marginalized populations either from, because of low income or because of race or because of whatever social circumstance and medical conditions that they encountered.

And I think,  I really believe that, that those people taught me how to be a doctor.  And I really feel like as a medical student and as a resident, I learned how to be a doctor by practicing medicine on. Those folks who lived in around Richmond. And so that really interested me in this complex care of underserved populations, the kind of psychosocial medical model that that I was exposed to there.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's great. Yeah, I can definitely relate to that as well. I always wanted to do family medicine for a similar reason, and was really fortunate that MCV had started the I two CRP program, which was the international inner city rural preceptorship program, and I was fortunate to get into that. It's a quote unquote honors program and I don't know why they picked me, but I'm grateful they did, and it was a really cool opportunity to really get interwoven within.

 The fabric of the city. I, I got to work at a free clinic a couple times per month from first year of med school all the way until when I left at Crossover Clinic, and it was so cool to be able to serve, be in that free clinic environment, provide care for the folks who needed it most, and I completely agree with you, Dr.

Sherman, like that, that transformed everything for me about how I approach medicine, how I think about medicine, being cost conscious.  And then you get into the military and the military, everything's covered by TRICARE and you don't even think about that for a little bit. And I've recently now pivoted into direct primary care and, and, and getting back into serving the community and getting interwoven and, and practicing cost conscious medicine brings me back to that.

And so I'm really grateful for the training that I received there and for that, but I agree, it's just such a joy to get to practice in your community and, and serve some folks who are in those underserved environments.

Dr. Joe Sherman: Yeah, I think it's interesting you say that that pathway exists now because back,  well, 44 years ago, whatever it was, I began medical school.  There weren't tracks and pathways and things like that, and it was really my senior year of residency in pediatrics where I had what we called an away elective, which basically meant you had no call responsibilities for a month.

And I had a friend that had done some volunteer work in bay and I had never left the country at that point in my life, and I decided that I would do that. So. I went for a month and worked at a small clinic on the border of Baileys in Guatemala, and that was something that no one in my residency program had ever done.

 Most people kind of go to some town or somewhere where they think they might be practicing. When they finished residency. But for me that was a way that I could expand my horizons and see  what it was like to, to work internationally. And that was an amazing experience.

Dr. Alex Schloe: What were some stories or, or things that you remember about that trip? First time out of the country and, you know, first time doing international medicine, what was that like for you?

Dr. Joe Sherman: The first thing I remember is, is just. Leaving the hospital pretty much,  and this is the kind of memories I have, and I know it wasn't like this, but it was almost like I was off call, run home, grab a suitcase, go to the airport, fly to Miami, fly to Bailey and land, and get picked up by. This person who was my host, family sponsor person picked up in a pickup truck and driven across the country from the east coast of Bailey to the west coast of Bailey.

 Well, the west border, next to Guatemala, and just. Having a little bit of high school Spanish and really not much else.  And the folks there spoke this kind of, they were mestizo mixtures of mostly Mayan descendants, as well as some of the Spanish, that, that, and Bailey has a rich history of all kinds of colonization and everything.

So  several sections of the small country speak different languages, but there was predominantly a kind of a mesti indigenous language and Spanish. So at least I had Spanish that and some people spoke English too, but that was the big thing. Just the shock, the culture shock of going from an inner city developed.

Hospital to this tiny, tiny town with dirt roads and just.  10 little government clinic that existed there in that town.  The other big memory is that I got chicken pox while I was down there and  going through a pediatric residency and never having chicken px as a child.  This was before any vaccines existed, like for chicken pox.

And then having a couple of scares of exposure during residency where I had to be. Isolated and and taken out of any clinical rotations.  I guess they caught up to me finally over, but I was overseas so  that was unpleasant period of that, of that rotation. But I was able to tack on an extra week at the end ' cause my chief resident was also my roommate, so that was a good connection to have.

So he allowed me to add on an extra week 'cause I lost one with chicken pox.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's awesome. Yeah, I, I have been fortunate to be able to do some mission trips to  El Salvador, Costa Rica,  Zimbabwe, and  every time I'm just struck by  how. of the current state of the United States and  beliefs, et cetera, how blessed we are to live here, how blessed we are to have the resources that we do, and to have the, the access to the internet and clean water and electricity and all these things that we take for granted every day.

 And I think it's really important for folks to have those international experiences. I mean, in Zimbabwe we were seeing crocodile bites.  Puff adder bites and all kinds of trauma and tons of hiv aids and tb. I saw pots disease there where the TB into the spine, and I mean, it's just  all these things that you read about in the textbooks and, and all these things that we almost kind of take for granted.

And then you go over there and you're like, wow, this is reality and, and  this is real and I can make a difference by doing this. And so  I'm definitely looking forward to as time has kind of. Expanded and, and had some more time as I'm not practicing every day. Definitely looking forward to being able to do some more international trips and you know, there's a ton of need in the states too, so maybe that looks like doing some more rural medicine or something along those lines as well.

So lots of need, but I think nonetheless that it's so rewarding to get those experiences and have those experiences. But  as we get busier and busier in life, we have to search for those and we have to be willing to take the time to do that. But it oftentimes fills your cut back up.

Dr. Joe Sherman: Yes, I agree with that a hundred percent. And I think and I've written about this and talked about how. Volunteering as a physician because we do have such sought after skills and the privilege of being able to be welcomed into patient's lives in ways that  other folks are not that this is often a.

Preventative measure for burnout and, and say can mitigate burnout if you, if you are able to work in a situation where you feel you are truly valued and that you have something to offer.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Absolutely. I love that. I know you spent some time in Uganda, in Bolivia as well, correct.

Dr. Joe Sherman: That's correct. Yes.

Dr. Alex Schloe: How did, how did those experiences shape your view of medicine and, and purpose?

Dr. Joe Sherman: Yeah, the, my experiences in bay and then later when I started practicing pediatrics and I came back to Washington DC I worked  and in initially at a private practice in pediatrics. It was not a good fit for me. It was a time that I struggled greatly with. Anxiety and feeling as if  I was misplaced, I was in the wrong place.

 Fortunately I was also volunteering at a clinic  in the, in a  neighborhood in DC called Columbia Heights.  And at the time,  this was the late eighties, which was the peak of the crack epidemic in, in dc but I worked in a small clinic that was also a transitional shelter for. For families, and I worked alongside of,  of my friends that were doing educational work.

We're doing housing, we're doing social services, legal services. So we really felt like we could encompass these families with a lot of services  that. Continued and, and then I also every couple of years or so took a trip overseas, either to Dominican Republic a couple of times,  or to Central America, so I kept that up because I really enjoyed that cross-cultural medicine  and could see where my experience overseas.

 As well as my experience domestically kind of really  complimented each other. I was fortunate to meet my wife who was also interested in international work. She is a clinical psychologist and had done some study abroad in East Africa and Kenya.  And so when we got married, we both had this interest and.

She's much more of the go-getter kind of idea person in our family.  And we wanted to travel overseas and live overseas, and she.  She said, well, I have an idea. I've, I've been in East Africa. You haven't,  we could honeymoon in East Africa and you can kind of see what it's like  and we can decide what we're gonna do.

After we did that, we made this decision that  we would spend some time living in East Africa before we had kids. After we have kids, then we would try Latin America. That was the plan then so. I was fortunate after looking all over trying to find a position in any way that might pay expenses, I was able to get of all things a pathology fellowship position as a pediatrician that was working in a, in a clinic that was conducting clinical trials on maternal child, HIV transmission prevention in Kampala, Uganda.

And I, I got a job working as the pediatrician in the clinic. So it was a clinical job, even though it was with the research team. And so I took care of the newborns, infants and children that were born to women diagnosed with HIV at the time. And then given. Depending on the arm of the study, either a ZT nevirapine, I think there were a couple of other medications we were studying to try to prevent the transmission from from the mother to the baby.

It was a very challenging time for my wife and I. We both were trying, we were working, she was teaching psychology and working, doing some child development work there. But there were no antiretrovirals available at all anywhere in the country, in the, in the continent that I knew of, except for people who were very wealthy.

So we were only offering the opportunity for this mom to prevent transmission, but. Other than general medical care, we didn't have antiretrovirals to treat people diagnosed with HIV, which at the time I thought, well, there's just too many people. It's overwhelming. And what I realized later, it was kind of more of the will of more developed countries to end pharmaceutical companies and funding organizations to really make it a priority.

Anyone with HIV has the right to access to medication. So that being exposed to a lot of death, a lot of suffering. Mostly actually from malnutrition, tb, malaria diarrhea measles, tetanus, every. Vaccine preventable disease I saw. And so makes me a little bit more of a, a vaccine passionate person.

But that was our experience in, in Uganda. Later we came back, we moved to Seattle where my wife is from and, and her family lived. We had two kids and it was about, I got a job teaching in a family medicine program teaching pediatrics. About five years after we got back we went to a presentation on living in Mission as a family overseas, and my wife was like, that's it, that's a sign.

We, we have our kids. They're, they're four and two at the time, and when they're five and three we'll be overseas. This is perfect. So that's what happened.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's amazing.  What was that like to have young children and just take the leap and be like, we're gonna do this. We're gonna live in Mission. This is a sign, let's go. What was that like for you? Was there any consternation or or difficulty deciding?

Dr. Joe Sherman: I was terrified. I think it was already an adjustment for me to, to move from. Washington dc which all my family lived over to the Pacific Northwest, where I really didn't know anybody.  I really relied on my wife's family, didn't know anybody as far as getting a job either, so that was a challenge at first, but I have to say that.

 Going overseas and living in Latin America, and we lived in Bolivia. We were part of a mission organization and we were there for four years.  It was a commitment that we made and once we made that commitment and we were able to kind of project what it was gonna be like and really lean on each other and our community for support, it really ended up being the most.

Influential in the greatest time for our family. I believe my kids were,  when we left they were five and three, and when we came back they were nine and seven, and  for them it left a lasting impression. I'm not sure how many specific memories, especially my younger daughter remembers, but for me it was transformative.

It really did integrate.  Who I believe I really was meant to be and  really was as a pediatrician at certain times  in my career. So it brought that revelation and insight to me.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's beautiful. Yeah, we just spent some time in Europe  on vacation and  we've, we've talked a lot about mission work and or just, just having that international experience with our kids.  And I see my niece and nephew in Germany and  they're amazing. My little. 2-year-old nephew, Luke was like talking German.

They've only been there since November and we're in the elevator and he is like talking German to this German lady. We have no idea what they're discussing or what they're saying. And it was just so cool to see how fast they've picked up the language and how cool it is for them to experience that culture.

And that's something that we want  for our kids as well at some point in the future. And, and, and I think it can really be transformative.  For them to experience those different cultures at different language. Being in a developed country seeing, seeing dad work really hard, taking care of really sick patients, I'm sure, and those sorts of things, I'm sure  they will not forget.

So thank you for sharing that.

Dr. Joe Sherman: Yeah, that I,  for our children,  like when I look back in retrospect, I can see all the wonderful times and the  community bonding. And because we had kids  the indigenous population that we worked  among. When we were both there, my wife is a clinical psychologist. She was, she was putting on workshops, she was teaching, she was helping people supervising psychologists there in, and we were all doing community education, community development work.

It was a chance for us to. Both of us to experiment with all kinds of different activities, which was really fantastic.  There were some rough times each, the transitions, our kids were going, we, we moved several times. They had to go from one school to another school. Fortunately they were very young, so they always say that this.

Type of cultural acultural relation of, of children seems to be acute and then it's done. For adults it's a little bit more of a chronic process. And but once we did get settled and we had a stable community,  which was predominantly all bolivians, we did have our mission community of, of expats that we would get together with periodically.

Predominantly, we hung out with the folks that we worked with and we lived among in our community.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's fantastic. What was it like after you wrapped up your time in Bolivia, I'm assuming, came back to the States? What was it like?  Like as you transitioned from practicing medicine in Bolivia to coming back to the United States and, and in our system.

Dr. Joe Sherman: Yeah. Well, this is a little bit of a difficult story because I. One thing to know about me is that from the time, like I referred to before in residency and then right afterwards, I really had a difficult time with anxiety and feeling. That I was in the wrong place. I wasn't sure I had somatic symptoms of that with back pain, headaches, and numbness.

And fortunately at that time I was able to get support through a psychiatrist and therapy and, and be able to be supported and that continued. To help me understand where it was that I felt most comfortable, where I felt I was meant to be. But sometimes I would go through these periods where I would get so deeply absorbed into my work.

 I would get. Kind of hooked on the affirmation that came from  patients and people around me about the work I was doing, and I would often kind of lose touch with what was inside of me because I was so externally focused. I returned and we had this amazing, expansive experience in Bolivia. But when I returned back to Seattle, it was kind of like in my head.

 I had to start working. I had to start making money for my family. It was kind of like, okay, we had our time of adventure. Now it's time to get down to work.  And so I got a job as a medical director in a pediatric clinic. Also a teaching situation, but I really took on all the burdens of that clinic, all the administrative responsibilities, wanting to make it great for everybody involved in that clinic.

And I threw myself into that. I, I took on anything that, that seemed to be not going well and took responsibility for it, and really went downhill feeling. Burned out. But I think more this, this idea that I was responsible, I had to make it right and that really took me downhill. And I eventually got depressed.

I had to quit, stepped away from that job and spent some time in recovering from that and. In that time, really look back at all the experiences I had had in my life where I felt most myself, most alive, most at peace. Most at who I was in what I did.  And in the process of doing that through coaching, therapy, spiritual direction, every possible help I could get reading books I was able to return back to medicine.

And I worked part-time in a couple of different clinics. But then I also wanted to start. Supporting other health professionals, especially physicians, understand the culture and the philosophy that we were brought up in through our training and how that was contradictive and counter to our wellbeing and being able to have that balance in life.

And so that's how got me into individual coaching for physicians and other health professionals as well as retreat facilitation.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Thanks so much for sharing that. I know it probably is difficult to, to be vulnerable and, and share the struggles that you've had and  I, I know there's a lot of people that are listening to this podcast who  feel that same way, have felt that same way and have not. Known how to overcome that. I mean,  myself, I also struggled with a lot of anxiety and kinda that imposter syndrome.

And  there's always more, more, more to do. How am I ever gonna catch up? How am I gonna  practice medicine? How I want to take care of patients, how I want to when I only have five minutes with them, when I only have 10 minutes with them when we're running really far behind?  And I think that we all struggle with that and it's really important to hear these stories and, and hear your journey and see that.

 There's, there's ways around that. There's things that can help with that.  Have, as you've been working with physicians, have you noticed or recognized early signs of burnout or do you have any guidance in terms of folks who may be experiencing burnout? They don't even notice it.  Some ways that they can combat that early on, besides like the pizza party that the clinic probably has.

Dr. Joe Sherman: Yes. I think burnout actually is getting a lot more. Press, notoriety and awareness. I think now both with individuals as well as with institutions, and I believe that there's this debate going on about whether burnout is caused by the institution and the structure of the organization or the individual.

And the culture that we were brought up in, I referred to before of this self-sacrificing. Never say no, never ask for help, kind of philosophy.  And I believe it's a combination. There's no doubt in my mind.  And there may be other people of my generation who may disagree as physicians,  but for me, there's no doubt that physicians nowadays  are under much more pressure,  much more stress.

The amount of information coming at physicians these days, the amount of technology and research and the rapid expansion of knowledge. Is something that I never encountered when I was early on in practice. We didn't have computers, we didn't have the internet, we just had a paper chart. It was a much it was a much different world back then.

So from my perspective, it's when you are trying to deal with all of the pressures and the stressors that are going on around you, and as you come home. Away from the hospital or the clinic, and that's still weighing on your mind and it's still preoccupying you and distracting you, and you're still wondering about that patient, or you're still wondering about, you know, how am I gonna get my charts done?

And those types of things. I think that's a first sign, that sign that you cannot leave it behind and it's still spinning around in your mind. That's when for me, it's important to get some help. It's important to understand really, I think with someone who can be more objective than  just talking to a friend that's saying, oh, come on, you can do it.

You're a great doc. Get back in there. You're, but someone that's really looking out for your best interest and. Maybe that's a family member or maybe it's a, a coach, a therapist or somebody that can help you get some perspective on things. But I think that that's, that's the biggest the sign of the, kind of the preoccupation and distraction.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah, I agree. That kind of emotional exhaustion, preoccupation, I think all those things  certainly play into burnout. And  it's hard though. I mean, I, I think, you know, a lot of us we're, we're, we're type A, we're hard charging. We've been trained to do more, more, more work harder and do more.  And we almost feel guilty or almost feel.

We're admitting a weakness by saying like, ah, man, I am exhausted. I am burnt out. And, and then the next step is admitting that and then asking for help. And I think we have a hard time as physicians at admitting that weakness, emitting that anxiety, that burnout, that stress, whatever it may be. And then asking for help because we think that we're.

Gonna be judged for that or, or that makes us less of a doctor that makes us less of a human. And I, I don't think that's the case. But personally, as I mentioned, you know, I, I struggled with a lot of anxiety and I bottled it up for a long, long time.  To the point where it started to impact my family and, and my relationship with my wife.

And that's when I was like, wait, what am I doing? Like I'm not being the dad I want to be. I'm not being the husband I want to be. I'm not being  the doctor I want to be. And then once I was willing to admit that  and get help.  Everything changed and I was like, why did I wait for so long to do this? So, you know, if folks are listening to this and you're there, like admitting that you need some help and getting that help is such a huge game changer for your mental health, and that's incredibly important.

Dr. Joe Sherman: I, I would say today, especially folks that are in, I think all physicians, but. And not only physic all health providers. You need to have support. You need to have outside support in some way, whether that is  friends, family members, coaches, therapists, whatever. You're put in a situation that you cannot go it alone.

It's different. Maybe back in the day you could, but today, society is not kind of conforming around you to support your life and bowing down to whatever you need. And so if that's the case, you need to get things in perspective and you need to have that that other voice of reason helping you out.  So from my perspective, that's a habit that should begin in medical school.

It's an institutional obligation, I believe, to expose medical students and trainees to what it's like to have a coach, a therapist, a counselor, somebody else that's gonna help you as you move down the road to adjust to the demands that the profession puts upon you.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Absolutely that, that is well said.  How do you feel like coaching can help folks that feel stuck? They feel trapped by  the golden handcuffs or as I like to say, the golden stethoscope with their job or their role.  How, how do you help them process that, or what recommendations would you have?

Dr. Joe Sherman: The first thing I do when anyone is approaching me asking about help is to congratulate them for having the courage to do it because it's something like we've discussed. It's something that is counter-cultural. It's something that you have to overcome a tremendous number of. Of myths and, and cultural norms to get over.

 So that's a big thing. That's a huge step that you, you reached out for help. And then the second thing is compassion is self-compassion. And I usually go through this process and say, if a patient were to come in to, to your office or your own child were to come to you and say. I feel like I'm not matching up.

I feel like I'm under stress because I just feel like I'm not enough. I, I'm, I'm trying as hard as I can. Would you treat that person to say, come on now, buck up, toughen up. Get it back out there. You can do it. This is ridiculous. You shouldn't be complaining about these things. No, but we treat ourselves that way.

And so if we're able to first show ourselves some compassion. Of course we feel bad that we, that we run up against normal human limitations. But if we're able to show ourselves compassion and then start to look in and examine what is it that really brings me life? What is it about medicine outside of medicine where I really feel like.

My, I call it soul, the role where my soul matches what I'm doing in the moment, and when I have that sense of peace or that sense of excitement or that sense that, boy, I can't wait to do that again. That holds the key to the elements of who you are. Not so much what you do, but who you are, what your values are.

What it is that makes you unique and special and also what I believe you were meant to, to do on this earth. And then we kind of look at that and say, okay, here are the core values that you really hold true and don't deny it. These are things that are really important to you.  Where does your work fit into that?

Where does your life fit into that? And if it's not fitting into that, what can we do to try to either change the mindset and the perspective you have about that or to start making some tweaks and changes.  For some people they're completely misplaced and they need to be somewhere else. But I would say for most people, it's a matter of learning new skills, such as setting limitations to what you're willing to say yes to all the time, as well as being aware of what your own physical, spiritual, intellectual, and psychological needs are.

And then as you start to do that, there. There's some space that opens up. You don't feel as stuck. You don't feel as confined and therefore possibility exists and you start to think, wow, okay, I don't have to stay in the same place. It's not that, you know, the grass is never greener on the other side, there can be another place that is more comfortable for you and fits into who you are a bit better.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That is really well said. Thank you for sharing that.  Dr. Sherman, I know that you contributed to a recent book that came out, white Coats Courageous Hearts.  Could you tell us a little bit about your contribution there?

Dr. Joe Sherman: Sure. This book is a compilation of several physicians' stories about. There are struggles, there are joys, there are challenges that are humans all about being a human being in medicine. And my chapter was predominantly about the identity that we take on as doctors and all that burden that that puts on us and we put on ourselves.

 We take that on and that. Causes a tremendous amount of stress, and the key to that is self-compassion. And in my chapter I talk about the actual practice of self-compassion, where you place your hand on your heart, which stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system, which releases oxytocin. And you say words of affirmation, words of consolation to yourself in that form.

Breathing deeply, letting it sink in. And this actually changes the neural pathways that exist inside of us to where they're not in those constant automatic do, do, do, never say no. Instead, we have alternatives and that we can treat ourselves with the same compassion that we treat our patients with.

Dr. Alex Schloe: I love that. Where can fi folks, if they want to purchase white coats, courageous hearts, where can they purchase the book?

Dr. Joe Sherman: Oh, it's available on Amazon. It's also available in other, and you can if you contact me, I'll be happy to try to to access the book for you if you'd like. They're hoping to have a series of these, of these books that, that come out from collections of different physicians. Kim Downey, who is a.

Physical therapist has brought us all together. She's a great physician advocate and

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's awesome.

Dr. Joe Sherman: so yes, you can do that and I'll be happy to lead you toward it.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's great. Joe, you also have a podcast correct? Beyond the Finish line, is that correct?

Dr. Joe Sherman: Yes. The Beyond the Finish Line is a series of podcasts that I did on the I fluent platform for early career physicians and and physicians in training. And it just. It talks and touches on some of these topics and several different people who took different roots in medicine, some clinical, some nonclinical, some a mixture in and out of that.

I think, I think today's world allows physicians to have a broader choice. Many of us feel like we are actually have less choice because the majority of physicians now are employed and they have to pretty much. Play the party line of the institution that they work for. I think I work also with institutions to try to increase engagement of frontline practitioners into policy and, and procedures that they have to con they have to follow.

But also I believe that we have many other choices that are both clinical and nonclinical. I think that will expand in the future.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah, I agree. A lot of cool opportunities and, as, as AI changes medicine and a lot of these other changes in medicine happen, I think we're gonna see  more unique opportunities that pop up, which is, which is quite exciting. Dr. Sherman, if you could give one last piece of advice to a physician early in their career to help them thrive long term, what would that advice be?

Dr. Joe Sherman: That advice would be spend some time. Understanding who you are outside of the white coat, outside of your ambition, your dream of being a doctor. What is it that exists inside of you that it doesn't matter whether you're being a doctor, whether you are being a friend, whether you're being a partner, whether you're being a parent, but whatever it is that makes you, you.

Focus on that. Reflect on it. Meditate, journal. Be creative at how you can integrate that into your life so that you can continue to hold onto that thread throughout the rest of your life, because if you don't, you'll lose it. Because there are several other people you will run into in your medical training who want to give you their threads and want you to take that on and in return they'll give you honors or a recommendation or a letter or whatever it is.

If you can be more like them. So you have to hold onto who you are.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That is beautiful. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that expert advice there. Where can folks reach out to you if they want to connect and know more? Dr. Sherman?

Dr. Joe Sherman: Sure, thanks so much. You can access my website, Joe Sherman md.com. It's very easy to get to, and you can reach out to me by email joe@joeshermanmd.com. I also have a LinkedIn page, Joe Sherman, MD. And those are the ways to get in touch with me, and I would love to talk to anyone that's interested in these topics or who is looking for some support in making their way through a challenging but very rewarding profession.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Absolutely. I think we can all work on  letting go of outdated ideals, embrace balance, embrace self-compassion. I think that's really gonna lead to thriving in, in the current medical climate. So really excited to have you on the podcast today, Dr. Sherman. Thank you so much.

Dr. Joe Sherman: Thanks so much for having me, Alex. I appreciate it.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Awesome. With that, it's been Dr. Joe Sherman and Dr. Alex Schloe with another episode of the Physicians and Properties Podcast. Signing off.

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