How To Think Like A CEO Physician And Escape The Employee Trap With Dr. Amy Vertrees

🎙️ 𝗪𝗲𝗹𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗲 𝗯𝗮𝗰𝗸 𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗣𝗵𝘆𝘀𝗶𝗰𝗶𝗮𝗻𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗣𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗿𝘁𝗶𝗲𝘀 𝗣𝗼𝗱𝗰𝗮𝗰𝘀𝘁 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝗵𝗼𝘀𝘁 𝗗𝗿. 𝗔𝗹𝗲𝘅 𝗦𝗰𝗵𝗹𝗼𝗲.

💡 What if the biggest “wealth skill” physicians never get taught isn’t investing… but negotiation, leadership, and thinking like a CEO—so you can practice medicine with autonomy, purpose, and peace?

In today’s episode, I’m joined by Dr. Amy Vertrees—a board-certified general surgeon, Army veteran (17 years, 3 deployments), former Lieutenant Colonel, private practice surgeon, author, and founder of the Boss Business of Surgery series.

Amy shares what it’s really like doing surgery downrange with limited resources (no CT, no laparoscopy, no robot), the leadership lessons the military forces you to learn fast, and the powerful mindset shift physicians need after training: stop thinking like an employee and start thinking like the CEO of your career.

We also go deep into negotiation—how she used principles from Never Split the Difference to increase her pay per RVU, why keeping emotions out of negotiations matters, and how knowing your value changes everything.

This episode is for the physician who wants more than “just surviving” medicine—who wants to lead, negotiate, and build a career that actually fits their life.

🔥 𝗪𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝘆𝗼𝘂’𝗹𝗹 𝗹𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗻:
 ✔️ The difference between military med school (USUHS) and scholarship routes (HPSP)
✔️ What deployed surgery really looks like: limited tools, high stakes, rapid triage
✔️ How the military builds leadership through responsibility, early and often
✔️ Why “we were told we could do it… so we became capable of doing it” is a life-changing framework
✔️ The whiplash of combat medicine: intense stabilization → evacuation → little closure
✔️ Why money doesn’t fix misalignment (and how autonomy + meaning matter more)
✔️ Negotiation basics: know your value, keep it calm, and don’t trigger emotion
✔️ Tactics from Never Split the Difference (stalling the number, anchoring, conversational tone)
✔️ The CEO vs employee mindset—and how it changes how you solve problems
✔️ Emotional capacity: how naming your emotions precisely helps you lead yourself (and avoid burnout)

🔥 𝗞𝗲𝘆 𝗧𝗮𝗸𝗲𝗮𝘄𝗮𝘆𝘀:
 ✅ Know what you offer + know your number. Confidence comes from clarity.
✅ Negotiation isn’t combat—it’s a calm conversation that lowers emotional threat.
✅ Thinking like a CEO means you stop asking “What are the rules?” and start asking “What are my options?”
✅ A raise can feel good… but autonomy, purpose, and alignment are what actually sustain you.
✅ Emotional capacity is a physician skill: when you can name the feeling, you’ve already started solving the problem.
✅ Your career is a business—whether you treat it that way or not.

If you want to learn how investing in real estate can give you the freedom to practice medicine and live life how you want then check out the links below:

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Transcript

Dr. Amy Vertrees: There's a lot to, to be said for knowing what you have to offer and knowing what the number is that you're looking for.

So a couple tips,, are first, and to, to really believe in what you're asking. So in that particular case, I knew that we were doing like the, the top, you know, 80, 90% of MGA volume, but we were paid at like the 30 or 30% or below MGA value. So I mean, it really wasn't a hard. Sell. But the, so I knew going in there that I had the belief that it was, it was worthy and I knew that I could get something out of it.

Dr. Alex Schloe:  Welcome to the Physicians and Properties Podcast, the show where we teach you how investing in real estate can give you the freedom to practice medicine and live life how you want. Doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor, doctor. Now here's your host, Dr. Alex Schloe.

 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Physicians and Properties podcast. I'm so excited for our guest today, Dr. Amy Vertrees, to have her on the podcast. She's a boss and you'll learn more about what that means here soon. She's a board certified general surgeon, also was an. Army veteran. She did 17 years in the Army, uh, and left the Army as a lieutenant colonel and deployed three times.

So really excited to share her journey and her experience in the Army. She's built a very successful private practice and she's the founder of Boss Business of Surgery series. She does coaching. She's also an author. She's a woman of many talents. Amy, so grateful to have you on the podcast today. How are things going?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Great. Thank you so much for having me on Such an honor.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Absolutely. Well honors all mine and I'm really excited to, to share your journey on the podcast tonight. Let's kind of start from the beginning. What, what led you to medicine? And then I'd also love to hear, uh, why the army and, and how was that experience?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: So my dad was in the Army. Uh, he's a. A Vietnam War veteran. And so we moved around a lot when I was younger. And so that lifestyle seemed pretty reasonable to me. I mean, didn't know any different. And I was interested in medicine science, math, anatomy, all those things, and just really gravitated towards the the sciences and went to Georgia Tech and realized. I wanted to go, into medicine, become a doctor. So that's, you know, what I ended up doing. I took a little bit of a detour there. Probably not really relevant at this point. But, you know, took a detour in graduate school, realized that wasn't for me, and, uh. Then I ended up in, interesting enough, the military medical school, a lot of people have not heard of sys, the Uniform Services University, the health sciences in Bethesda, Maryland. And I just remember sitting in a coffee shop figuring out where I wanted to go. I was in Florida at the time and the schools didn't call to me and I looked at. This Kaplan book and it said that the best kept secret in medicine was up there. And I was like, you know, I know Army. I can do that. And so I applied and I went up there and I just absolutely loved it.

It was a fantastic school, great education. And you know, I, I joined in 2000 before any wars happened. So it was certainly different military that I. Entered into then, then I ended up serving in, that's for sure. Uh, so it was, it was just something that was interesting and I think we're all just kind of interested in becoming, I don't know, the best version of ourself and, and expanding and trying new things.

And so it felt different and unusual and interesting. And I, I knew that it was gonna be interesting. I had no idea just how interesting.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah, I, I'm excited to, to dive more into that 'cause Yeah, the, the military I was in was also significantly different than the military that you experienced. And, so I'm, I'm really grateful, , for your service, especially that time too. What, what a, um, just wild time in American history and, and you know, of course with, Iraq War and Afghanistan and everything that was happening at that point in time, I, I don't think folks,

really appreciate all the sacrifice that happened, there, especially with, you know, unfortunately how things kind of ended and the drawdown and everything. And so, uh, thanks for your service. And, and, and thank you to your, your dad as well. Vietnam Vet. I, I've been really, I love military history. I've been.

Really leaning into lately learning more and more about Vietnam and just like, what, what a fascinating war and what just, you know, incredible stories of, of sacrifice that, that the men have that went over there and just, uh, just something that's not talked about enough. And so I'm glad to see like more and more podcasts and more and more people coming and sharing about their experience in Vietnam.

So anyways, all that to say, incredibly grateful over here for you and for your family. Uh, and thank you for that. I, I want to just kind of clarify for folks who are listening, who are thinking about the military as a route, for medical school, and after. So, do you mind kind of explain, explaining the difference between sys, which is an amazing medical school, and I'll kind of talk about the HPSP program and we'll kind of compare and contrast the differences for, for, for the folks that are listening.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Yeah, absolutely. The, uh, uses is a bit of a bigger commitment. So when you apply for medical school, you're also applying be commissioned into one of the armed services. So when you get accepted, you also, become commissioned as an officer in the military and it's a tri service. Uh, school. So I chose the Army branch and then we are basically officers in the military.

You get the rank, the benefit, the pay, then they pay for school. So I actually got paid to go to school with all the benefits, um, out of an Army officer. And those four years will count at the end of the service. So. We were able to just be military officers, so we wore uniforms and, you know, our casual day was like our camouflage, you know, otherwise we were wearing our, you know, usual business attire. And we went a lot of trainings and so we had two big military training exercises. One, we were, in our. First year of middle school in between first and second year, and then also later, something called Bushmaster, um, in our fourth year, which was really putting us in the operational setting. And, you know, they had a lot of fun with us too.

You know, first year too, we, we went to Quantico with the Marines. They had a lot of fun with us too. I'm pretty sure we there, we were there for their entertainment. But so we got to really be a part of the military. And interestingly enough, in between our first and second year. We were required to do a military rotation of like just two weeks to really embed yourself into the military and to understand what it's like. So I was, one of the, one people in our class who have class of over 160 people. One person a year was chosen to go to the White House,, to serve with the, and, and it was great. I was chosen for my class, unfortunately, but ended up being fortunate they, because they were having an administrative change. The administrations were changing, so they said, you know, you really can't go this year. They just don't want anyone right. This, this summer, I was like, that's a bummer. So I ended up going to CENTCOM instead in Tampa, and this was the summer of 2001. And so it was a few months before September 11. So I actually ended up meeting all, uh, a lot of people that ended up being on the news.

As

we begun the war. So it was a really interesting time to be, um, in that particular location. So by them allowing us to go in the military, I actually got to really experience it and got a unique experience. I was also there with the special ops command, uh, to where they, uh, showed some of the, Missions that they do, and they, they shared a lot of things with me and told me, say like, don't talk about this, it's secret. I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Your secret's safe with me. but it was really great to be a part of that because they, you know, I was like a little kid to them and they showed me, like through all the different areas they showed me.

What a general does goes through to get briefed for, all the news things and, and how they put all these war plans together. Uh, it was really, really phenomenal. And my project that year was, or that, that two weeks was to help the special ops. Learn how to, you know, do better IVs, which, I'm a first year medical student.

What do I know? Anyway, so I appeared with a junior college there, and helped them and, and come to find out, you know, a few months later, some of them were really actually going to war. So it was a really surreal kind of time to, to have an accidental disappointment, you know, turn into something that was pretty really remarkable.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah, that is really cool. It's, it's tough. You know, army might be a little bit different, but Air Force sometimes you. You don't feel as connected to the mission depending on where you're stationed. And so it's really cool that you had that experience and you were able to like really feel embedded, uh, in there.

And then of course with, you know, everything that subsequent subsequently was to come. I'm sure you felt very much a part of the army. , But, they, well that's such a cool experience. Yeah. HPSP for folks who are listening, that's how. I went into the military, the health promotion scholarship program.

And so there are a little, a few things that are different. The commitment is a little bit shorter, so I think for uses it's eight years. Um, for

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Seven years after residency.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Oh seven, okay. Four for us after residency, um, for HPSP, so basically one for one for your medical school, but similar, you, you are, you get a stipend.

It's not full officer pay, but you get a stipend while you're in med school. I, I wanna say mine was 2060 $4. Which I thought I was living large, in med school with $2,000 a month going into my bank account. But, uh, and , and then you, you do some different trainings in between different years of med school, so first year commission officer training, and then I did, some aerospace medicine courses and stuff as well, and then rotations, throughout med school.

But it's, it's a really great experience. I, I talk to people, a lot of med students about the military and I, I. We incredibly grateful for it. I think it was a really great. Incredible training. You know, I can speak to the family medicine side. I, you know, I, I feel like the training that we get in family medicine in the military is just amazing, you know, and you get a lot of extra stuff, like a lot more trauma and emergency medicine.

And we probably do a bit more surgery rotations than typical and deliver a lot more babies. And so it was just a really, really cool opportunity that I, that I'm grateful for. And then just having the opportunity to put the uniform on every day. It was weird getting out and then having to think about what to wear.

'cause you get so used to just throwing the uniform on every day. But, um, grateful for that experience. And for folks who are listening who are interested, you know, if you, if you feel like you want to be in the military, it can be a great opportunity for you. But I think if you, if you want to just have med school paid for and you don't have a desire to serve the country, it might not be the best opportunity.

But, anyways, that's, uh, that's my, my, my Air Force tangent, HPSB tangent, but hopefully helps answer some questions there for folks. So you spent 17 years in, in the Army and deployed three times. Do you mind sharing a little bit more about kind of what day-to-day looked like for you during that time?

I know you had multiple different roles, , during that timeframe, but what was that like for you?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Yeah, you know, honestly it really started, um, at Walter Reed. So we saw the first war injured people and when I was a resident was really when the wars ramped up with Afghanistan and Iraq. And so we would get war injured every Tuesday and Sunday and because they were coming from Launch stole in Germany. We would typically get a lot of the information ahead of time. So really got immersed in a lot of the injuries and injury patterns that had happened and, you know, really, helped me appreciate just how diverse these injuries were and, you know, really participating in the care when they came back. And, so I had an understanding of some of the work, the injury patterns we would see. And also actually started our military injury database and did a lot of publications related to that. So, when my time came, 'cause we were, we're not deployable till we finished residency. So we finished residency and um, and also very grateful to, maryland Shock Trauma that we trained, did a lot of our trauma training up there, and that, that was absolutely phenomenal.

Dr. S

really, um, really prepared us for that too, including things like allowing us to do hand, so anastomosis and things like that too. He was a really huge supporter of our military surgeons. So, , my first deployment was to Afghanistan in, in 2011. I was in Jalalabad and, uh, Afghanistan is, has like basically a mountain range in the middle of it. Deserts to the Southwest and then, a, a mountain range. And I was in Jalalabad, which is in the mountains. So I was there and it's next to like A-C-C-I-A compound and stuff. It was actually on the, O Dark 30 movie. I was there at that time when they, uh, captured Bin Laden. You know, we met

the military seal portion of the SEAL team.

We didn't see the SEAL team themselves and, and didn't do anything. I was just nearby. But

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's so cool though.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: It was, it was very cool because, uh, you know, they would, they would come by all the time. We got a big mission. We're like, oh yeah, sure. And then I'm in the gym tent and I'm like, on the treadmill. I was like, what, what just happened?

Anyway, so it was a, it was a time in 2011 that was very, very busy in that timeframe and a lot of the. Fighting happened at night, so it was always kind of hard to figure out when to stay awake, when to sleep. And um, there was a period of time of a couple weeks where we were getting just constant injury injuries, um, or patients that were injured and you never knew what you're gonna get.

I mean, we would get like a nine line medevac and say, you know, we've got a certain number of casualties and things. And there were definitely some pretty remarkable things that that came up. So you, the nine line medevac just basically tells you, here's the number of casualties, here's approximate number of injuries, and the stability of them.

So we could prepare and the, uh, the estimated time of arrival. And sometimes you'll say like, you know, they're unstable and they come in, they look okay, and then sometimes you're like, oh, these doesn't sound like it's gonna be bad. And you, you open up the ambulance back door and they're like doing CPR. So we never knew exactly what you're gonna get.

And you know, to put some perspective in there, we basically had an ultrasound and an x-ray. There's no CT scanner, there's no laparoscopic equipment, there's certainly no robot. And we had a, uh, a really phenomenal. Program of, whole blood system. So we were co-located with a Charlie Med, so we had the ability to manage a lot more, casualties and expand because we had some more personnel. 'Cause our, I was part of a full FST, which is about, I think we're like 20 people and, but the Charlie Med had more people and if we needed whole blood, you basically just say, Hey, I need blood. And they would call over the loudspeaker, whatever blood type, 'cause we screened them ahead of time. And then before you know it, I mean within 30 minutes you had blood in hand. So it was a, a really phenomenal thing. And we did have to call, , some of those, uh, you know, massive transfusion protocols a a couple of times, so that, that one was really busy. And I mean, there were times where like we had, CRNAs were our, our, anesthesia folks, and there were times when you had like two people like head-to-head, like there were managing anesthesia for two people at once.

And,

um, it was a pretty phenomenally challenging time. And then, then you'd have, you know, run a mill, appendicitis, diverticulitis, things like that. And so it was a, a really interesting, interesting time to be there. , My first deployment was probably the busiest. , My second deployment was in 2013, and that was in the Hellman Providence in, um, ed Dwyer. So this was in the desert. And, it's, it's really actually, . Completely different. It's like a different country. So there's a desert. Uh, the very first day we touched down there's like this massive sandstorm. I've got a great picture, it looks like straight outta the Mummy. But we went to like this, this, this was downsizing at the time in Afghanistan.

So. We were in a tent and there was like a, a big metal box that was for, or, and it would get extraordinarily hot there. And so I, I just remember there was one time we were operating, , this guy came in and, and I, I had to, I had to scrub out and, and, and, and I basically, I had to throw up because it was so hot.

It was that bad., It was, it was interesting. Our CNA, he's like, he said, I looked up over the curtain and you were gone. So I came right back. Anyway. It was, it was crazy. , And then that was also really cool because the British Special Forces would, they, they'd land and then we would, help with any injured that they had before going to Bastion, which is the mil, uh, British Hospital. So we had a lot of, uh, collaborations with there. And I had a friend who's over at Bastion. So when I said some there, I could, you know, give them a briefing of what, what we had. And I remember this one in particular where I said, every, everything's injured, all of it,

everything. Everything centered. And I was there with an orthopedic surgeon.

This, we were a split FST then too. We still had the capability of doing whole blood. But fortunately we didn't need as much. But you do have to make some tough decisions because we had one where there's, you know, multiple casualties. We got, it's just, you know, orthopedic surgeon and, they, they would use explosive devices that include like the equipment.

So whenever we were drawing things down, you had to be very careful, which was, uh, what was around, because they could use that as in part of the bombs. And so we were taking down beds and they had these like really long bolts and then nuts. We had this one guy came in where, a bolt was actually into his temporal lobe. And, the other guy, the nut was in his pelvis and

he had some abdominal pain. I thought, okay, fine. You know, it looked like maybe right colon, something like that. Well, when we got in there, interesting enough, the, the nut part of that had blown through this side of his hip and had actually formed the back wall of the common iliac vein.

And

Dr. Alex Schloe: Oh, whoa.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: 'cause I, when I opened the pelvis or open the abdomen, I was like, it was pristine. I was like, this is not good.

And uh, so I was able to kind of, find the, common like vein and isolate it and, you know, thought about repairing it. By that time we'd already used our blood and I think we only had like, maybe 20 units who could use 11. So ended up just packing 'em and sending him to, to bastion. After isolating the injury. And, putting, a, I just can't think of it right now. Not tourniquets, but the, anyway, was able to kind of like, pack them off some Sebastian where ended up stretching their resources too, but that, that he, he lived, had to com a repair of that.

Of course. The other guy lived too, um, debrided of his temporal lobe and, and repair like that too. So

it's really remarkable to be able to hear, because we would have these weekly. Uh, meetings, like basically just briefings of hearing what happened. And it was great too because I remember at Walter Reed when we participated there, we saw the injuries.

We, we knew the final story, but for to hear them, how they worked up people, how they, treated people was, really helpful to, to hear and understand and, and get the full breadth of it too. So I was really. It, it, well, it didn't, honestly, it didn't really feel special at the time 'cause everybody was doing it. But you know, when you get past that, you're like, gosh, that was really a phenomenal time in, in the military.

And my third deployment was in, the northern part of Iraq and in, , Kurdistan and at at Bil. It's interesting because I felt fairly safe. Um, in there, we, our FST was out of the old, airport and there was a big city.

There's interesting enough, there's like a lot of cranes still as if they were constructing the, the big city. Apparently they'd been there for decades because it kind of ran outta money and, uh, and they're just abandoned buildings in some of those areas from what I understood. But that was an interesting thing.

That was a very, um, multinational thing. We were there with multiple countries. There was, you know, British surgeons. There was a, a Canadian surgeon. There's, and there it was. It was really great to get to know a lot of different people from different countries and, and how their medical systems work and how their deployment systems work, which were far different.

Like for example, the Germans, would only go for a few weeks at a time, whereas we would typically go anywhere from, you know, five to, six to you know, more months. On deployments, but they would basically just rotate short rotations. And they had the

plan out for two years in advance where we were like, Hey, you're leaving, you know, in a month.

And so it was, it was interesting just to see like all three deployments, wildly different. And each are really gained a lot from, um, but really certainly an appreciation for what the American military is able to do. And, I'll never forget this, quote, which someone said is like, you know, we are a, a necessary military asset because they know that they can push themselves and they know that they can potentially put themselves in harm's way because if they get an ambulance or a helicopter and they get to us, that we will save them. And, that was, real, a huge honor. A lot of pressure. , But it was really, I mean, talk about like feeling like you had a purpose and, and knowing like the, that comradery of saying that, you know, you're there fighting for us and we are here to make sure that you go home. So that's, that's pretty much the summation of, of the highlights, I guess, of

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's amazing. Yeah. Again, thank you. I I could talk to you about that, uh, for many, many more hours. 'cause it's just fascinating. And, and just, you know, I, I, I, hopefully folks really take the gravity seriously of what you did and what you guys were doing there and what you're capable to do, capable of doing with really minimal resources.

And you'll, you'll think this is really cool. It actually just got published last week. We started when I was in residency, gosh, 20. 20, I think was when we first started working on this project. But we were looking at, uh, aerial delivery of whole blood and hey, would it be able to be transfusing? And, we called it Operation Blood Reign, kind of as a joke.

And then we, we got to, we got to, we would draw whole blood off of each other, just some, some residents and, and, and some techs. And, we'd package it up in this like really fancy, expensive, cool air. And um, and then we'd throw it out at airplanes, C one 40 fives and, and then we would take it immediately to the lab and see, hey, did it meet criteria to be transf usable?

And it did. And it was just really, really cool. And then we ended up entering it into, we wrote some research papers and we entered it into what's called the spark tank in the Air Force. And we ended up winning that, which was really cool. But it just got, it just got, published in Deployed Medicine.

It's operational practice guideline, now aerial delivery of fresh and stored blood products. Thank you. I, uh, I was only a tiny, tiny part of it, but some of my blood got thrown out of an airplane and it was able to be transfused at one point and, well, you'll, you'll appreciate this too. We were going out for the first time to test it.

We were at Herbert Field. Which is where a lot of the special operations are for the Air Force. And, we loaded up everything into the C 1 45 and I was on the ground and, um, they were flying in, they were getting ready to drop the blood and the commander of the base called and was like, should we be doing this?

Like, what, what happens if, if like, blood goes everywhere and we're in the middle of like, the reserve of Eggland, you know? And we're like, well, like. I don't know. It's, it's probably not a big deal. Right. You know? And then, and then, uh, the, one of the, docs we were with, who's a special ops doc, he was like, we're just gonna do this.

And, uh, so we did and everything was great. And we were like, what if we get one of these like, blood bags stuck in a tree or the cooler gets stuck, what are we gonna do? And it was just really funny. And, and you can relate to like, Hey, la. Last minute in the military. We've been planning this for months, talked with everybody, got all these approvals, and right as we're about to drop these bags of blood is when, uh, when they're like, yeah, maybe we shouldn't do this.

But, anyways, it worked out. And, yeah, December 1st that was published, the operational practice guideline for deployed medicine. So really, really cool. Dr. Uh, Rosalyn Fuentes really led the push there and, she's amazing and it just, just a really cool experience that, it's, it's, it's awesome to have those experiences in the military that you're like, I would never have got this in private practice.

And so anyways, so really, really cool opportunity and I'm grateful for that time as well. Uh, I did wanna ask one more question though. How, how, how far out of residency were you, on that first deployment?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: I finished residency in 2010

and I deployed, um, oh gosh, like maybe January, 2011. So yeah, within a year

Dr. Alex Schloe: Okay. Was that what, what, what, yeah, what was that like for you? Where do you remember like kind of emotions, feelings? Were you excited? Were you scared? All the above. What was that like?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: I, I actually, it's so funny you mentioned that because I was moving around some stuffs, a bookshelf and I came across, I had this spiral bound notebook and, you know, I was, I was always like the gunner, the a plus student kind of thing, you know? So I, had. Basically, um, copies of the anatomy and all, like

meticulous notes and, you know, filling. I studied all the time because, you know, you have to do everything. My first deployment, I did neck explorations, we did thoracotomies. There was, you know, pancreas injury and there, I re remember there was a explosion where the, the pubic synthesis like. Tore and a tore like the, the bladder, uh, deep in the pelvis.

And so we learned this technique, you know, open the bladder, repair it from the inside and things like that. And, um, there was just, and, and we were capable. And that's the, the one thing that I think was really remarkable that I really tried to emphasize to people who weren't in the military is like. We were told we could do it, so therefore we became capable of doing it. And I think that in this day and age, everyone's so scared of people doing stuff that like, you could, you can do this, you can only do a little this and you know, and maybe you should be asking somebody else. And, and that just was not what was our, our training was, we were enabled from the very beginning and said, you're gonna do this. Um, and it was really, you know, it was tough because you had to be capable of doing so much. And, I'm really fortunate because, you know, Walter Reed, we were, we had the best training for sure. Like I, I left there highly capable and and also empowered by all the things that we, we learned from our training.

So it, I felt okay, but it, like each trauma, it was, it was just rough and, and it's a very weird experience. Because like in the hospital, you're expected to have complete ownership of your patients and in when you're deployed, it's this like really intense. You do everything that you can, you're, you're trying to figure out what the problem is.

You're trying to diagnose it with the stuff you had, and, and then all of a sudden like the plane comes, they're gone. You're just like, what just happened? Like the, and then the FST goes silent because there's nobody there. And, you know, after that really intense thing and then, then that person's outta your hands.

And sometimes, luckily we were able to usually figure out what happened to people, but if they were, Afghans or, Iraqis and much of the, whatever part of the, the country they're from, you may not actually know what happened to 'em. But either way, it's like the intense stabilize and they go away.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not as much closure and uh, you kind of saw the whole. Spectrum, right? Being there as in, in the FST and then also, you know, getting started at Walter Reed when, when the, when the war was starting. So you kind of saw that whole continuum and, and loop of everything that happened. And so that was probably really interesting to see from both sides.

I would've liked. Knowing the closure, knowing what happened. But, uh, but that is, that is interesting that that's the case, that sometimes you just do the best you can and then they're gone and, and hopefully everything worked out, you know, in their favor. I'm sure. There were some, some certainly challenging times during that, uh, experience.

After you, after you got out of the military, what was next for you?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: So, yeah, it's funny that you mentioned that, um, the, the Boss Business with surgery series started in 2015.

When I was working on getting outta the military. I knew 2017 was my end date. And, there were all the things that I needed to know, like CVS and negotiating and all this stuff. I mean, like coding.

I, I had no idea. I mean, the

military is like, it's, we just don't have to worry about a lot of those things,

Dr. Alex Schloe: Monopoly money

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Yeah. And

Dr. Alex Schloe: is what I used

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Exactly. You know, it's funny, um, I, our, our salaries were actually literally determined by Congress.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah. Yeah. And, and yours was like, I don't know, probably a third of what general surgeons actually make. You know, even family medicine is like half of what family medicines typically make, but uh, yeah. Isn't that crazy?

Well, you know what's really ironic, um, and I talk about this all the time in my group when we talk about money, because I never actually thought about how much I made because it didn't matter. I mean, what am I gonna do? Like ask for more? It's never gonna happen. So, and you know, honestly, like the salary wasn't much, but I, I left with no debt.

And in fact, you know, because they paid me throughout all of this, and I actually was in the DC area for the entire 17 years, unlike a lot of people. And, because when I finished residency, they asked me to stay. And . So, yeah, it's, it's funny because I really literally had no idea how much I made. I just made what I made,

and then I, I just remember like the, the visceral fear of like, how am I going to ask for what I'm worth and how do I negotiate for all those things?

And so like. Necessity is a mother of invention. And so, um, I created the the Boss Business of Surgery series as a way to figure out those things. 'cause I figured if I needed to know, then other people needed to know. And I think that's where a lot of good business ideas come from, is when you find it a need and you.

Fill it. So it was interesting at that time, I think it was a really good idea at the time, but you know, 2015 people weren't doing stuff. I mean, I thought I was like phenomenal to get like a website. I was so proud of it. And then when I pulled in my phone, I was like, this is crazy. And then, but like any entrepreneur and I, I understand it now is like the very first roadblock you have.

Like, oh, that's it. This was a dumb idea, and then you stop. And, I was preparing for my third deployment at that time, and so I kind of let it go. And it wasn't until, um, you know, COVID in 2020 that it, that it picked up again. , But, and that came from my experience, um, to, to, you know, long-winded way to answer your question.

After the military, I did what everyone said we're supposed to do. And this, you know, goes into the messages that we get. Everyone says you have to get employed jobs, so. I had an interview at a private practice in Nashville, and then an employed job at a community hospital. And I was actually really drawn to the community hospital to be able to continue to do the full breadth that we were told we could do and were doing in the, in the Army.

So I was really gravitate towards the community hospital, so that's where I ended up going and it was very, very happy and. I was happy with the patients in the OR and things like that, but I was not particularly happy with the clinic and there were just, I felt, uh, the administrative, like lack of autonomy and things like that. And so I discovered coaching this time. I'd never heard of it before. And this was 2020 and I was like, that's great. I'm gonna use it to negotiate. 'cause we were not getting paid much per rvu based on MGMA data now that I actually knew what that was. So, um, I negotiated actually a phenomenal raise and then like three months later I quit.

Dr. Alex Schloe: it was good practice though, and great for those three months.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Yeah,

Well, it, it was. It's interesting because it's not money. Money does not make you happy. Um, and that's, you know, what I've learned through the military and, employed medicine and private practice, it's, it's really not about the money and, um, we think it's about the money, but it's not, that's actually an employee trap.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, you know, I do think money can offer some flexibility and some freedom, you know, and I think that's what you're looking for and, and you know, kind of return of that autonomy and control and being able to practice medicine to your full scope and those sorts of things. And. That's what really fills folks up.

I wanted to hit on the negotiation piece real quick 'cause uh, this is something that is close to close to my heart because I, also learned none of this and then got outta the military in June. And I, I practice part-time now, and, and really fortunate for that. I do direct primary care and then some per diem work, for, uh, for a big medical system here.

And, I didn't know anything about negotiating and, and the direct primary care practice didn't really need to negotiate that. But, uh, for the per diem, I was, I had a guest on the podcast and and, and she does a lot of locums and per diem work. And, she's like, you gotta negotiate. You gotta negotiate.

You gotta negotiate. And so, anyways, long story short, they initially said the rate that they were gonna pay me. Um, and so I reached out to her. I was like, Hey, what do you think? She's like, no, you need to ask for like. $800 more or something like that, like, you're worth way more. And I was like, I, I don't know, this seems like a lot of money 'cause you know, comparing it to the Air Force and, um, so anyways, I did.

And they came back and they're like, oh, well we won't do $800 more, but we'll do $500 more. And I was like, okay. So it's like just so simple.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: You insist?

Dr. Alex Schloe: $500 more, uh, shift just because I sent one email. So that's not how you properly negotiate. But I say that to say like. Had I not asked, they certainly weren't gonna offer that.

They were gonna pay me $500 more. And so anyways, what are some tips and tricks that you've learned about negotiating, salaries for folks and, and getting set up in, in, in private practice? I.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: So the negotiating there, there's a lot to it. So that, um. Particular negotiation about increasing the amount per RVU was not as hard as I thought it was gonna be. So I read Chris Boss never split a difference,

and I used a lot of his techniques. And, I've, over the last, you know, few years, I've really developed a lot more nuance that, that have helped tremendously.

But in that particular instance, it was all about money and, and, and good relationships. So I had good relationships with the people that I was negotiating with and,, I knew my value. And so there's,

there's a lot to, to be said for knowing what you have to offer and knowing what the number is that you're looking for.

So a couple tips,, are first, and to, to really believe in what you're asking. So in that particular case, I knew that we were doing like the, the top, you know, 80, 90% of MGA volume, but we were paid at like the 30 or 30% or below MGA value. So I mean, it really wasn't a hard. Sell. But the, so I knew going in there that I had the belief that it was, it was worthy and I knew that I could get something out of it.

I think we were getting like 30, $37 per RVU and I had in mind, I was like, we should be able to at least get in the forties. I mean, this is just ridiculous. So anyway, I felt, you know. Perfectly fine asking and said, Hey, you know, just, um, made it conversational and felt pretty, relaxed about it. Um, really not raising the, uh, the emotional fear in the other person, which I know a lot of negotiations, they're emotional, they're not logical. So it was a conversation and I, the techniques, the specific techniques that Chris boss talked about really helped. So I, I said, you know, well, you know, we're not making MGMA. Numbers. I said, no numbers. I said, well, you know, you're not, and he is like, well, what are you looking for? I was like, well, I, you know, you know the MGA numbers just like I do.

I mean, I, I just really think that, that we need to talk about, you know, getting a little bit more in line with what a general surgeon should be making. And, and I just kept stalling and not saying a number, and then they said, well, I don't know. We were thinking about like, maybe I, we could start with $54 per hour view.

I'm like, I guess I could do that. So.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: was just really crazy. Um, that, and, but I had prepared for a high anchor, so they said, you know, if you're thinking of a number, to put like the number that you have as a low part, then do a high anchor is like, so in that instance I could have said, you know, I was really looking more like, well, and then even then, you're not just saying, I demand this, or, you know, I, I do this.

You're just, it's usually just conversational, like. MGMA I've seen, you know, anywhere from like 45 to $65 per rvu. So, you know, the numbers. I mean, we're, we're just wanting to look for what's, what's really helpful for a general surgeon. Uh, and you know, he said, don't hit the triggers like, you know, know my worth and my value and be

fair. Like, all those things are very alarming. But if you make it like, I don't know, you know, you know the numbers. I mean,

like, I'm just a doctor.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That is awesome. Uh, that is an amazing book. Never Split the Difference by Chris Wallace. If folks haven't read it, please tell me you used his classic, like, well, how do you expect me to do that? You know, I feel like he always says that. How do you expect me to do that? Um.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Exactly.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Yeah.

And then using like, the, the odd numbers when you're, when you're negotiating like $997 and 97 cents instead of a thousand, you know, and those sorts of things. But that is cool. That is, that is a great way to do it too. And, and it's, you're right. You kept the emotions out of it and, um, they probably felt so much more comfortable.

And look at like what you were able to get, you know, you were going in shooting for like, hey, maybe in the forties, and then they offer 54. Great. That's awesome. I should have read that book before I just like sent an email and asked to be paid a bit more. I shoulda,

Dr. Amy Vertrees: I mean, even just the ability to put out there in the first place is, is engaging and

um. You know, it's much more sophisticated than, than what I did when I first got the contract, because I just happened to notice in looking at the contract that there were certain things that were bold, in bold. And so they all seemed to be, I was like, these all look like they would be flexible.

I was like, I think they bolded it to see. And so I, everything that was bolded, I asked for more.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That is awesome. That is awesome. Very cool. Well, what are, you know, let's, let's talk a little bit more, about, uh, about boss, you know, and, and everything that you've. You've done and you've have, you've learned and you've taught, what are, what are some of the key pillars or things that you've learned either from Become the Boss, md, which is your book, which I'd love to hear, you know, what that experience was like, um, but also the Business of Surgery series.

What are some other things that tend to come up quite often and that you help coach physicians on?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Yeah, I definitely under understand that there's like very specific things that come up and so the military helped. Understand and, like comradery and leadership that was really pushed on us. We were got leadership positions early and often, so we really learned how to interact with other people. So a lot of my leadership comes from that. And then the employed, position I really. Understood how to, you know, work within a constrained system. And, uh, I used the resources around me for building a coding. So I met with our coders often, things like that. And then, the real education came in 2020 when I started the private practice. So I sort of, we didn't really talk about it, but I kind of sort of suddenly quit and it, it actually wasn't sudden at all.

Um, I just knew like there was just this. This idea in my head, I was gonna be complaining about the same things for the next 15 years. And in that moment it felt intolerable. So, I went on my own and started discovering all these things for myself. You know, as I became the administrator in a setting, I started understanding what some of the administrators were trying to do, but weren't really communicating well why they needed to do the, some of those things. And. You know, because I'd had a lot of conversations with people all along the way in the system. I understood things on, um, a better level. And then as I learned coaching, I got my coaching certification in 2020. It lear it's a different way to think. The best way I know to describe it is instead of being a physician where we tell people what to do, we're used to figuring out the problem, tell people what to do, and a coach is like the exact opposite. I actually draw information out and I help someone else decide what to do. And that changing of the framework of how I interact with other people for one thing is so much easier. But also help me, um. Inspire other people around me to be the best that they are. I'm not telling them what to do. They're not sitting there waiting for, for me to tell them what to do. They're now figuring things out for themselves. And so, the framework of the Boss Business of Surgery series became a few fundamental things, and then it's even continued to evolve. So I boiled down, my group program is a year. It covers three months of dealing with difficult people, like difficult colleagues. I called it the difficult partner, but then people kept thinking it was your spouse. I was like, no, no, they're fine. But difficult colleagues, like, what do people bring up in us Because, you know, I have an interaction with someone and this is where it's so confusing for people. We have an interaction with someone, we're like, they're wrong. And then you have this other guy, like, I don't think they're that bad. So I mean, it's, it's interesting because there's something that someone brings out in us and it's. Us understanding that and not trying to change other people, which makes a big difference. So three months of dealing with, uh, difficult people in the workplace, then three months of dealing with complications. And this is when, you know, we, we, it's so funny because so many people in the group, I said this, and they, they actually like blew their mind. I said, you know, we have hard jobs, right? never occurs to us that our jobs are really hard. Um.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Right.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: But complications are when we do something. And how do you deal with the guilt, the shame, the worry, and then how do you tap into this idea that it's okay to be okay with yourself and how do you, uh, support yourself through all these and have your own self-compassion and, and deal with the, the, the gravity of what we're meant to deal with. So we do that for three months. And then there's three months of power negotiating. This is where you kind of put both of those things together when you figure out who you are and you're okay with who you are and you're able to take risks because you're never gonna harm yourself. Um. You also understand what other people set off in you, and you can use that to move the needle forward.

That's really what power negotiating is. It's an interaction with two people and you have to be very solid in yourself to be able to lead somebody else. And I call that lion taming. You know, the person in front of you can be potentially very dangerous and you're just like this dude with no weapons, except for the power that you can say like.

Read their cues and say, we will not be doing that. I see you over there. We're not gonna be doing that either. And you have the ability to actually settle someone down because most of the powerful things that we see are usually, actually a fear-based stress response. So you start to lean, manage other people's stress response. And then there's three months of, I call it stop painting clinic. It's actually really like, I mean, I can't get you to love it. There's no false advertising here. But it's, it's about how do you lead. Clinic, how do you manage your time? How do you get paid? How do you, um, inspire other people? How do you manage your time? And how do you make this job manageable? So there's, there's a lot to that. Um, and that really is where you step into the CEO role and they start to realize we're trained. As employees, we're trained to do what we're told and we're trained to follow the rules. We are not trained to innovate and inspire and really tap into the value bank that we have.

That's, uh, vast is like the top 1% of educated people in the world. So that's where we really step out of the role of employee and step into it. You are the clinic, CEO. You're the one managing people. You're the one making the big decisions. And you do this from your own. Personal missions and your values and your leadership style, and less on what you think, other people, uh, are telling you what to do. So.

Dr. Alex Schloe: That's amazing. Uh, that was a masterclass, right there. Thank you for that. When, when let's, let's, uh, pull the thread a little bit of the, the CEO and thinking like a CEO. 'cause I think this is really good and really. Really important for folks to, to kind of understand, when, when you're, when you're saying, you know, think like a CEO act, like a CEO, what do you think that looks like day to day?

I guess if we can compare and contrast like the, just the employee physician and the CEO physician, what do you think maybe the differences are in that mindset, that, uh, is how they interact,, different differences in how they run the clinic, those sorts of things that you've seen in your experience?

Hopefully that question makes sense.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: No, it, it's actually like really detailed. Um, I remember we had a, uh, a group call where we talked about CEO and employee mindset, and we actually broke it down into different things of like, you know, how would you respond to this if you were the, the CEO versus how would you respond to this as an employee, which is, , typical saying like the. Where is your source of power? Like where do you gather your power as an employee? And you know, when you're an employee, you gain your power. It's like, well, they tell me what to do. There's a hierarchy. And I just do what's told and, and it's very clear. And we have job descriptions and things like that. And the uh. The CEO is more innovative. It's like this comes from my personal mission, this comes from the values that I have. This comes from my ability to lead other people and to inspire and be inspired by the people around me, way different sources of power. And so you could see how one is very limited and one is not. , And have a very specific example where I woke up one day and I was like, I solved a problem because I was thinking like an employee. So we had a bit of a conflict with one of our hospitals. So it's a really long story, but, , I was very disappointed with how something worked and we really needed something for my practice to move forward, um, to allow us to expand and to really support my other partners.

Because the part the. Group itself has become different. As we gain new partners, it changes the dynamics with each person. So anyway, I, we were really frustrated and I really couldn't solve this problem. I was like, how am I gonna make our practice succeed? And, um, I just, I woke up one day, I was like, wait a minute. We're private practice. I'm not an employee. We can go to another health system, and that's exactly what we did. And so we

found two hospitals nearby and we ended up, getting, uh, a, a deal with these two hospitals to support them. And in return they supported us. And so I was able to get, another partner on an an income guarantee. We're able to, create call contracts that helped as private practice. You know, anything that gives you sustainable money, is helpful because consistency is key in being able to survive, and it allowed us to really expand our practice. It was absolutely necessary, absolutely necessary to run into this roadblock to realize. I think with, with innovation, and we follow our values, which is to serve our patients. We're now serving them closer to home. We're helping hospitals, we're helping patients, we're helping our practice. We're all benefiting from it. And it, it came from that one morning waking up saying, I cannot believe I fell for it.

I can't believe I was just trying to follow the rules, the rules that didn't exist because I was not employed by this hospital system.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Right. You got to write the rules.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: I have that.

Dr. Alex Schloe: yeah, no, that's a great example. And I think that's a, a perfect e example of like, uh, you know, how powerful things can be if you don't have those constraints and those bottlenecks. And you can, you can innovate and you can improvise, adapt, and overcome as the military loves to say.

And you're able to do that in private practice more so than as an employee. And that CEO role can be so. Man, I love that. That is, that is so awesome. Uh, are there any, you know, I wanna be respectful of your time and I know it's a lot later where you are and thanks for staying up late to do this podcast 'cause it's been super valuable.

But are there any, you know, um, tips or tricks that you would recommend to a, resident who's about to get into their first attending job? If you were to kind of rapid fire a few things for them to either learn about, think about, or just kind of understand the concepts are, what would that be?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Oh, I think you know, for one thing, your podcast is a great example because you are opening their eyes to something. Other than just medicine being a source of income. So you're tapping into the idea that they have a value bank that they have generated that is worth something beyond just generating an RVU. So by thinking outside of just the system that you're in, you could start thinking of innovation. And so I encourage them to expand beyond just medicine. Read. Entrepreneur books, read business books, think and, and get inspired by these people around that are thinking differently than you are and putting yourself in different rooms with different kinds of people, because we tend to gravitate towards the medicine folks, and which, you know, of course we would.

That's, we're all in it, in it together for sure. But every now and then, just kind of drifting off and then learning something new and, um, learning from the people around you as well. If you want to know how the medical system works. Talk to people that you wouldn't have otherwise. We tend to, as physicians, I think, talk to physicians, but if you talk to the coder, if you talk to the biller, if you talk to the nursing supervisor and if you see what their problems are, and the CEOs too, I, I've talked to several CEOs now of hospitals and you know, I'm like, I can't believe they're not thinking about me and blah, blah, blah.

And. I hear their problems and they're like, they've got big problems. You know, they're not ignoring you. They've got big problems. So I think really, not just looking inward at what you think about yourself, but looking outside and, and saying, I wonder what other people's problems are. I wonder what their perspectives are. These are simple and easy things I think we should all be doing every day. Whether you're a resident or not, is making sure to always expand your perspective. Of your experience and your knowledge. And if you do that every single day, you are gonna be worlds better than anyone else because you will have consciously gained more knowledge, uh, in doing that. And so it, it's more. I would say a practice of learning than it is what you specifically learn, because I think you're going to be pulled into areas that you have a specific interest in, and I think if you follow your interest, that's gonna serve you well later in your career. Because I think a lot of people follow what we're told to do and then start finding their interest.

I think if you start tapping into your interest earlier, then um, it will allow you to follow a more authentic path than just what you're told to do.

Dr. Alex Schloe: I love that. That's, that is a really great answer, and I think it goes back to the discussion earlier about negotiating too. Like the more emotional intelligence you're able to gain and the more relationships and the more like heartfelt and genuine you are and become like it's only gonna continue to serve you going forward and lead you down that.

Path, uh, to success. And, and I love too that you mentioned, you know, kind of figuring out what your passions are and following them. It's really interesting, uh, talking to physicians or like looking at different physician Facebook groups and seeing like physicians just be really mean to other people who are doing other things other than just strictly practicing medicine.

And, I think having these other passions and these other things that you love and ways to serve people, uh, make you a better doctor, make you a more well-rounded doctor, help you take care of patients better and help you, of course with, with burnout and some of these other things that, that we experience.

And so I love that you said that. I appreciate it.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Yeah, absolutely. And uh. Be. They can be mean, but it's so interesting, like if you think of what the underlying thought is that they're saying this, they say, I don't understand what you're doing.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Right, right. Why are you doing this? Yeah. Why would you be a doctor, but you also wanna invest in real estate or smart start a business? Yeah. It's just, it's really funny, uh, like you had your

Dr. Amy Vertrees: different. It must be.

Dr. Alex Schloe: life. Exactly. Yeah. Your whole life already planned out now and forever. But anyways, yeah, it's, it is really funny.

But I'm grateful for, for, for doctors like you who have, uh, really challenged others. Really taught a lot of other people. I mean, I, I'm, I know you have changed so many lives in the military out of the military and now, as well. And so thank you for doing that. Is there, is there anything else you want to hit on here before we wrap things up?

Any, any parting shots or final words that you have?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Yeah, the, the one thing, you, you sparked something in me. I had. Podcast a couple weeks ago about emotional capacity and. This is, I think probably the most important lesson that I have learned is missing from residency. So we've learned skills because they told us how to operate. We, um, have knowledge because we read a lot and we learned a lot. We have not really talked about emotional capacity. And emotional capacity, I think is the ability to carry negative emotions and positive ones. So the positive emotions allow us to expand and, and carry. The negative ones because when you start, you're really excited, you're interested, you're motivated, but then you have your first complication or first setback, or your first self doubt. And then the doubt creeps in and the shame creeps in. And if you. Miss the inspiration and the sense of purpose. You will not be able to carry that dread and shame and worry. And so the ability to articulate what you're, you're feeling and expand on it and understand why you feel bad, because usually we just say, I feel bad and I don't know what it is, and maybe I should leave.

Versus, oh, I'm, I'm feeling, um, I'm feeling dread of what's to come because I haven't quite resolved how to, to. Approach surgeries, you know, in a way that's logical. And those are ways that we can help solve problems when you start to understand it. Because if you understand a problem, you've already have solved it. So the, I really wanted to mention that because when you said that, I do think that's the main thing that's missing is we don't understand how we feel and the more specific we are about it, we've half solved our problem. Um, and so that's the main thing that, that I wanted to lead, leave with.

Dr. Alex Schloe: I love that. I'll add one more thing to that. I think not knowing how we feel and then not knowing how to, address it or bring it up or feeling comfortable sharing that we're struggling with X, Y, or Z. And I've talked about it on the podcast before I was, I was, dealing with a whole lot of. Anxiety and um, and I felt like you mentioned, I felt a lot of weight and kind of couldn't even really figure out, Hey, why am I so anxious?

And I've, you know, if I'm, if I look back, honestly, I probably have always been a bit of an anxious person, but it was getting really bad and it was impacting my, my home life. I was snapping at my kids for things that were. Ridiculous. I mean, he's three, he was three at the time. Like there were some things that were ridiculous, but uh, but it was like, Hey, this is just not the dad I want to be.

This is not the husband that I want to be. , And, and, and once I finally admitted that I was dealing with this anxiety and, and, and, you know, started talking to a therapist and sought treatment and so forth, like, it was just like the biggest weight was lifted. And the funny thing was, I remember being so worried about like, Hey, how's that gonna impact?

My career as a physician or, um, you know, I gotta, I, my PCM is one of my colleagues, you know, and the funny, I remember talking with him. He was a pa, he was my PCM. We worked together every day, and I, I, I, you know, frankly I kind of like broke down crying at this point And was, was talking to him about like, how much anxiety he was having.

And I had some panic symptoms and stuff at the time. And, uh, and he's like, yeah, man, I, I already knew. I was just waiting for you to like, come see me about it, you know? And he, it's like, I've known for the last year, and I just didn't want to, you know, bring it up. So that was really funny. And then, you know, and then the, the next thing that creeps up is like, well, what if I go see, you know, mental health on base and I'm gonna see a therapist and I run into a patient, then that's like, that's another thing that's like a, a roadblock, you know, and all these things along the way.

And then I realized like. This is all ridiculous. You know, if I go see, go to the mental health and I see a patient that's great, at least they know, hey, my doc is taking care of his mental health. And it ultimately being such a great thing for me. And it was like just a enormous game changer, uh, in my life as a whole.

And I think there's a lot of doctors who. Who struggle with that. 'cause we don't know, like, Hey, what are the ramifications gonna be? What are other people gonna think about us? And then we don't even, you know, really take care of ourself in that regard. So, I do think it's, it's really important to, you know, figure out what, what are those weights that are holding you down?

What are those emotions? How can you express them? And don't be afraid to express them, because I guarantee you. Almost a hundred percent guarantee with your, like, biggest fear of what may happen of you, of bringing that up and addressing that is probably not gonna happen. And in fact you're gonna feel this huge, huge weight be lifted.

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Right, exactly. And it's, it's so funny as you're saying this, like what would a patient think? Like if we're

telling them that they should go see a therapist to help themselves out, but we're unwilling to do so.

Dr. Alex Schloe: Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I saw patients there and you know what they said. What's up, doc? And no one cared, you know? And it was just, it just is what it was. And so, you know, I think, uh, it's just so funny how the mind can play tricks on you. And as physicians, we feel like, you know, almost we're, you know, impervious to some of these things.

Anxiety, depression, you know, and it's just it's just funny. We need to take care of ourselves and be willing to do that and, and do it well. Um, so anyways, I I, I just hope that folks listening to this, uh, take something from that. And if you've learned something from this podcast, just share it with someone else who needs to hear it.

Dr. Dr. Amy Ridge, it's been, it's been amazing talking with you tonight. How can folks reach out to you if they, they want to know more, they wanna learn how to lead a career like a CEO, they want to check out the Business of Surgery series or get your book. How can they do that?

Dr. Amy Vertrees: Yeah, so my book is, become the Boss md Success Beyond Residency. It Fall follows a fictitious surgeon from getting a job to all the things, um, all the way through the career. So I really tried to hit on a lot of the highlights. Along the way of things you'll encounter in your career ahead of time in a way that's pretty easy and conversational.

You can find that on Amazon. And my website is The Boss. Uh, the boss, or actually boss surgery.com or Boss Surgery will also get you there. So boss surgery.com and that's where you can find, links to the website. You can also find on Apple, it's the Boss of Surgery series. Um, soon I'll have on the website 'cause we have over 200 episodes on the website.

My, VA has almost finalized this. Page where you go directly to that and there's, it's under different topics. So you'll see things like the, the clinic and, you know, leadership complications. They'll be a lot easier to find very specific things. And, um, they really proud of that body of work because, a been able to interview and, and really get a lot of. Valuable information of, of people who've experienced, you know, well beyond my experience. That's the, the beauty of having an interview show is you get to have a lot more experience and, and I've just had some phenomenal guests on there too, which really make the show, , really amazing.

Dr. Alex Schloe: I agree. Yeah. Having a podcast and, um, getting to interview amazing folks like yourself. So much fun. I learn so much every time. And, and thank you again for making the time to be on the podcast tonight. , With that we'll go ahead and wrap things up. Uh, it's been Dr. Amy Vertrees and Dr. Alex Schloe with another episode of the Physicians and Properties Podcast, signing off.

 Hey, real quick, if you're still listening to this, I'm assuming you got value from it, so I need your help. Specifically, my two year vision with this podcast is to help 100,000 physicians learn how investing in real estate can give you the freedom to practice medicine and live life how you want. There are two main ways that a podcast grows.

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