Season 3. Episode 4 Think you are not creative? Lisa Brown will show you how you really are!

Lisa Brown has had a varied educational background. She wanted to combine art with psychology, but back when she was searching for a program like that, none existed. She ended up making her own programs and through the years has worked with seniors, kids, cancer survivors and people who are grieving.

Her approach is so interesting -- she starts most people with collages, and students tear out pictures from magazines to assemble the collage. She also works with two-handed journaling, so that people can "get out of their heads" and discover what they are trying to say  using their intuition.

Lisa offers a variety of programs and workshops. She is currently working on developing a certificate program too.

We had a fascinating conversation with Lisa, and we hope you will enoy it!

To learn more, go to 
https://art-as-therapy.com

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Transcript

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Hello, and welcome back to the BW NICE Voice Podcast. We're happy to have you back here. I am Debbie Weiss and I am here with my co host, Lynne Thompson, and our guest today Lisa Brown. Lynne, why don't you introduce Lisa, for us. We're really excited to talk to you, Lisa. Lisa is a member of BW nice the Somerset County Chapter. And she joined in 2018. Her career is expressive arts workshop facilitator. And the name of her business is art as therapy. She's been in the business since 1998. And before that, she was a teacher and a trainer. We're gonna talk about how we can have stress free art for all and I'm really looking forward to it because it sounds interesting as heck, Her website is art as therapy.com. I just love what you do. And we can't wait to hear about how you got here. And can you tell us a little bit about how you started and welcome, Lisa. Thank you. So I went to school, actually to be an art teacher. And I taught in a public school systems for three years. And then I decided I wasn't really sure that's what I wanted to do. And I ended up actually going to a headhunter, and then up in the magazine and newspaper publishing industry for the next 15 years in New York. So I was basically a trainer, I would teach people how to use the programs on the computer to create magazines and newspapers. And the last place I worked at was up in New York Times as a consultant. But then when I came when I finished that and I during that I met my husband and I ended up getting married and started to have a family. And so I kind of backed out of New York a little bit and started to kind of review what I wanted to do. And I went back to school to get there was no art therapy degree at that time. So I was going to get a psychology degree to go with my art. So I went and got my master's at Rutgers, they didn't really have a program for me. So I ended up with a creative arts a master's in creative arts education. So I stayed in the education field. Then as my kids were getting older, I was still creating, I painted as a young person and painted all through my life. My son wanted to go to an arts stone art program, and it was really bad. When he came home. I was like, oh my god, I can do this. So I said next year, why don't your friends come to me. And so his friends came to me. And then I had one student whose mother was a survivor, cancer survivor. And she said to me at the Women's Resource Center, and someone is looking for a teacher to work with the cancer survivors. And I was like, Oh, I would love to do that. And so I kind of couple of things happened at the same time I had gotten sick, I was sick with Lyme for five years, really sick. I mean, I had IV four times for months at a time, the only time I felt better was when I was creating art. So I thought, oh, maybe there's something to this, you know, to kind of take people away for a couple of hours and have them just create something and not think about their pain. I went and I taught the cancer patients and I loved working with them. They just you know, they have so much to say and so much is going on in their life and so many changes. So I also at that time started training with a woman named lutea. Dr. Rutuja Catholic Yoni, who wrote 14 books on journaling with your art, I really loved her methods, which is actually to journal and write with both hands, so that you're tapping into both parts of your brain. So I ended up incorporating her techniques with my art, art expertise, and I came up with art as therapy to kind of get people and take them away. That's a long, long winded piece. But anyway, that's how I got started. I think it's wonderful. There's so many nuggets in there. I've had Lyme, not as bad maybe as you had it, but I know how awful it can be and how hard it is to get a diagnosis. And that's one of the diseases that people can't tell you have it by looking at you. So lonely road sometimes I love how you use your own experience of noticing that art made you feel better. And you thought this is my favorite thing is when people turn it around and say, Well, I can help others who don't feel well and and the work with the cancer patients. Also amazing. So you kind of carved out your own place. Yeah, I was looking for a niche and I wanted to I just wanted to help people who were you know, like you said, when you have Lyme, nobody knows they don't see it. So they go Oh, you must feel better. And you're like, oh my Yeah, it's just really it's a hard one because and then it took me like I said over a year to get somebody to diagnose it right. I was really really sick by the time I got anybody to even find out what it was. I think one of the things is that when you're concentrating on creating, you kind of forget about other things. And that's the piece that I really wanted to work on. So a lot of times I do a lot of bereavement groups also, because I lost a son at 20, he was 23 to addiction. And so because of that, I learned that I can put some of those feelings, the anger and the loss and everything into images. And, and that helped me kind of get through that process. And also the journaling. So the journaling piece is really interesting, because what you do is you ask questions with your dominant hand, the one you usually write with, and you answer with your non dominant hand. And that will tap it, whether you're left handed or right handed, it'll tap into the intuitive part of your brain and give you some answers that you just don't expect. So that piece of it is really important to the techniques that I use. So I want to understand that a little bit better. In that you, are you saying both hands, you're doing art or you're journaling writing out, you're immersed? You're right, or, and then painting or doing some kind of art with your left? Or how's that work? Okay, so generally speaking, I use collage with people who are not artists, because the everybody can do collage. And rather than cut, I have them tear, so they can't be very precise. And that puts the artist and the non artists together, though, we tear images and words to express whatever the theme is that we're working on. And after we're done, we do some questions and dialogue with that image or with those images, like we would ask, How do you feel and the other hand, well, that the opposite hand will tap into the intuitive part and tell you exactly how you feel. So it's really interesting, because I've done a lot of different themes. One of them was recently that I did that was fun was, you know, we don't name ourselves. So we get named by our parents, and they don't have our person, they don't know anything about us when we are born. And they give us a name that we have to live with for all our life. So I did kind of a take on that where I asked people, what would you name yourself? If you could have named yourself? Why do you think you know what, what are the images that come to mind with that name? And then they would kind of dialogue with that? So that question, oh, my gosh, that just got me thinking, as you're saying that I'm like, Oh, my gosh, what was my name be? You think about how long you have to carry that name, right? And you didn't choose it. I'm so very sorry for your loss that hits very hard, because I have a 23 year old, I can't imagine. And I'm very impressed that you could find a way to use the art to help you. It wasn't immediate, but you know, I, but now now that I can share kind of the way for the people to express their, their sorrow, and their grief. And, and grief comes in a lot of different ways. But I think if you can put out just my thing. And I think most people, the thing that they they worry so much about with grief is that they're going to forget, and they don't want to forget. So if you put memories into with that, with that collage, we actually package it so that it's closest so that other people can't see it, because it's private. And when we package it, you know, we put it they have like doors, we closed it, either we put it into a book or some way so that it's closed. And those images are just for you to remind you of the things that you want to remember. And then you can also like I said, you can dialogue with some of those, you know, sometimes you there's an image that you really need to have in your collage and you don't really know why that's the time to ask those questions with your dominant hand and answer with your non dub really interesting answers from that. So you go a lot deeper than the art I love how you incorporate the writing and the intuitive part of people's brains. Years and years ago, when I was in a creative writing course, in college, we did something kind of like you're talking about and it was so cool. I haven't thought about it in ages, but you're reminding me of it. We had to go inside paintings and write about what it felt like and we kept dream journals, like I think she was the teacher was trying to do the same thing like pop that part of your brain open, you know, the non the non rational part. And I had such great result in sets. Yeah, so fun. So I can imagine that people are very surprised when they when they're, you know, taught by you. Yeah. And sometimes it's just as simple as you know, if you have a problem. I always say like sometimes when a conversation goes all wrong, and you're like, what happened? What did I say? No. And then you go home and you say, Hmm, let me just ask what, what happened here. And a lot of times you pick up mentally or unconsciously some of the things that are going on with the person without really realizing it. And those are the that's intuition that may come up that that person was really sad about something or had a fight in the morning and it wasn't the conversation went wrong, not because of anything you said but because of something that was going on with them when you realize that It's like, okay, I don't have to take that burden on you know, I can I can let that one go because you don't know. So I think I just think that the work is really it's, it's easy to do anybody can do it, you can teach anybody who's having any problems and let them run through it and, you know, really helps a lot of people. So, I, I've taught, I don't even know how many people have tired, I've taught all over the world I've taught in Ireland and England, Mexico. So I just find that, that once people get out of their head a little bit, and have some fun, and when you're tearing magazines, it's something that you didn't normally get to do. And so it's kind of fun, like, it's kind of like you're a kid, you know, I get to do something that, you know, somebody would say, No, don't do that. So already, you feel fun, you know, it's, there's a fun piece to it. The thing I love about that is that I consider myself to be completely the opposite of creative, and no art talent whatsoever. Afraid of art. And the interesting thing is, my husband passed away six months ago, two and a half months after that, I went to a spa. And they have art classes. And I thought to myself, I feel the need to do this, even though I am scared out of my mind, because I everyone else is going to know what they're doing. And I don't even know how to dip. When do I dip the brush into water. And I was very, very intimidated. And once I got in there and got out of my own head, I could not believe how restorative it was. And just, it was phenomenal. So much. So when I came home, I started to look to see if anything like this was available. So one, it's so interesting that you have found your way onto the BW nice voice podcast. And too, I absolutely love the idea that you use collage, because that is not intimidating. And I can just visualize tissue paper in different colors that I used as a kid and anybody can rip and glue stuff. Right? Right. And it's just an it's just once you get out of that. But you know, women always tell me they are certain women, they tell me they don't have any art ability, but they have beautiful rooms that they've created with the pillows. And you know, men don't do that women do that. So I always say there is something, if you love the rooms you walk into and you made them, then you do have an artistic talent. I say that all the time that people are so much more creative than they realize. And that's the example I use these beautiful rooms, and these beautiful colors, but also the way people think like, Debbie, I think you're pretty creative, you come up with ideas for your business. You know, people don't give themselves credit for just how they think like that they think of cool new things they can try and do. But I love that you bring it down to that physical making of art. I think that that touches something in people, we just don't, we kind of don't do that anymore. Right as adults. So it's precious that you do that. A lot of my clientele are usually retirees who haven't done art, since they were in grammar school, and in grammar school, they dad to you know, make it orange pumpkin, like the teachers orange. And so for them to let loose, as you know, magazines is the easiest way to get them started. And then, you know, we can move on to painting if they want and stuff like that. But yeah, I find that I'm and the other thing that I do most of my classes, even the fine arts pieces of the classes, I don't it's a piecemeal thing where we're gluing things on top of other things, you know, for mixed media, and so they don't know exactly where it's gonna end up. And I want them to kind of create as they go, because it becomes more of them. And so a lot of the work that I do is like that. When I do workshops, I do all kinds of workshops. But yeah. I have a question about I wanted to ask you before you said you know, you found your niche when with the cancer patients of whatnot, but earlier you said you wanted to go back but they didn't have the program you were looking for but you were looking for you knew you wanted to work or get a degree in psychology. I'm guessing you already had the idea back then for what you wanted to create. Yeah, I had the idea that I wanted to kind of incorporate the art with psychology. I just didn't know. There were no programs. Now there is at Caldwell. I think Caldwell College has the programs but it used to be that if you did are what they called our therapy, you were working with very psychotic people. And so they can't really tell you that they feel better to know what I mean. Yeah, but this way, if I'm working with just the average person who's had a rough day, or has has a disease or is going through something, if I can help them, I can see it right away. And it's just so fun. It makes me so happy to see people walk out with a smile on their face, or, you know, tell me that share something that was really, you know, a wow moment for them. You go to different support groups or different, you know, how to, how did I do, I've gone to many of the hospitals in the area and also, now its essence COVID. Well, during COVID, I did a lot. I started a program, which I call Jeremy away, which of course, is a horde magazine. Yeah, so I did that online. And I've, I have continued that with a small group who have stayed with me. But I started to do a lot of workshops for the senior centers, and the library's online. And then then once COVID opened up, I started to go to them. It's a little bit of a pain, because I have a studio and I can do it here. But you know, for me, to just get out there, it's fine. You know, I can bring everything and go. And again, it's mostly the local places. I've done some places more than others. And it's just, it's just finding new people. You know, yeah. Do you also work with children. I did work with children for many, many years. I stopped about three, but right before COVID, I had stopped, I usually would start with them at age nine and keep them through till they went to high school. So the same kids would come year after year. And they really, it was fun, because they they knew where things were, I didn't have to tell me I'd say I need glue. And I say well, you know what that is, you know, help each other. But it was really nice. I, I had them do everything that I've done. Clay, I have a I have a studio kiln in my studio. So we do clay, we've done everything. But those kids, but the last year I had like 8/8 grade girls, and they were all I just didn't want to start with nine year olds again. So I kind of like that I'm done. So not all of them started at nine, but most of them came year after year. And most of the boys that came were not athletic boys, because that's why they had time in the afternoon to come see me. And those are the kids who have the boys are the ones that have come back to visit me as they age, which is so cute. I love that. It just sounds like it's so fulfilling. You know, it's been so fills your heart. Yeah, that's my heart. And I think if I didn't have that I would have never survived. There's no way. Yeah, I know that feeling. I know what you're saying. So I just think you're brave. And you touched so many people. I mean, it's just, you found your vehicle. It's so cool. Yeah. And now I'm at the point where I want to start offering, like a certificate program called art as therapy where I, you know, teach other people how to how to teach this way, how to think out of the box, how to bring your own life, like I always say, people, if you want to teach a class and you're going through the emptiness, then you should teach a class about that, you know, kind of go where you are. And because your experience is going to come into the, into whatever, however you teach, and people appreciate that. So that's my kind of next goal is to start doing that in it. Well, you know, a certificate doesn't really mean anything. It's just that I get to train some people who are really interested. Yeah, but it's a great way to take what you do and have that ripple effect. I mean, you just have no idea how many people will be affected in a positive way because you're training the trainer's Right, right. Well, that's, that's why I want to do it. And I did, you know, a couple of years ago, I did a theme of of legacy. And I, I realized that, you know, the, like I said, most of the women are in their 50s and 60s when they come to me first and I said you know you you forget that you've touched so many people, even simple little things all your life. Like I just told one girl one time that my niece was an architect, and she decided from that point on to do Interior Design. And now she's designing shopping centers. I mean, it just and she says it's all due to me and I all I did was say my, my nice. This is Mark tech, and it's not a woman, you know, not many women are in that. And so I wanted people to realize like how much how many people you actually touch that they don't come back and tell you but you have to give yourself your own legacy to understand that you've you've helped people even along the way that you don't even know about, you know, you don't even know how, yeah, I mean, if you only think about your own experience and think about those people who've had that effect on you, right? Think about that often, like, boy, why don't I ever write them a letter and just tell them, you know, drop them an email or something. And then it's always for me on to the next thought, or the next thing. So any other aspirations? Not that you need anymore? Well, we're in the middle of downsizing the house. So I'm hoping to find a place where I can continue to teach the way I do. And if not, I'm hoping I can find, you know, a retreat center that I can teach, also. And I did do a program for the BW nice in Pennsylvania a couple of months ago. And we did you know, a little bit of I think career information, we did a little bit about career, but I had them doing both hands journaling with both hands and doing a little collage. So that's really fun. Oh, my goodness, I would love to have you do that. I don't know where you guys are located. Where are you? We're in 100. And chapter. Okay, yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And what about other groups? Is this something that you've thought about? I know, COVID is over. But there is still opportunity online to connect with people all over the world any given any thought to or, like I said, I'm just continuing to tear me away. And I'm also, you know, do some classes like grief classes every once in a while online so that people can have a chance to do that. You know, I have a website, people can find me, by the way, you said that the website is art as therapy, but is art with a hyphen, as I art a as therapy with hyphens.com? Just will also make sure we put that in the show notes. We'll put all your contact info. Thank you. Yeah. So what did you ask my aspirations? I'm just you know, right now, I'm in the middle of hoping that, that people will find me again, when I move, I'm not going very far, I'm going to stay in the area, because my son travels all the time. So we want to be close to the airport. But maybe we just have to downsize. We have a very big home. And it's big for two people. Yeah, you don't need all that space. And you don't need all this because we realized there were rooms we didn't even walk into. It's like, okay, I think it's time. That's a sign. That's one of the signs. We were talking about Linda and I were talking about that I think last week about stuff that we collected. Oh my god, right? That is to start that cleaning out process. Yeah. And I want you to see this. I have I already have a, you know, a storage unit for most of my art. So this is there's more. So how with your own art now is how does it work? I mean, do you paint every day? Do you paint when you have a whim, you know? Well, I usually keep one day where I paint. And then I have a I have a watercolor class on going on Wednesday morning set has been on for I don't even know, like 10 years, and different people have come and gone and come back and gone, you know, so that I that's a steady so I always, you know, not always is my, my practice sheet on my training piece. You know, frameable, but sometimes it is. And then I as I teach I usually do depending on the size of the group, I do something with them or start something with them so they can see how it gets started. And then I'll finish it later. So I'm always producing more work. There's tons of work here. So that's the other problem I'm having with moving as where am I going to have the wall space again? So but yeah, I can't imagine I would want to keep every single do you keep every single thing even if you think it's not good quality of your own route, or it's really funny. Sometimes I think it's not good. And then somebody will go oh, this is perfect. I just was looking for something like this. So I keep it but I have I have done some art shows out of the house just to get you know, just recently, especially to try to get rid of some stuff. Yeah, it's it's just I don't know. So a lot of stuff. I guess it's a whatever of the profession, right. So I was so proud when my little thing I brought back from the spa. And I thought to myself, well, what am I going to do with this? Like, where do I put it? I didn't want to hang it somewhere. But I thought I can throw this out. Made it I feel like my bulletin board. Yeah. Because it makes you feel good. Like, Oh, I thought I like I said you can do I could do it and you know, okay, it was dot art or something. I'm like, Okay, some of my dots. Were a little too big, but that's okay. Nothing. I did it. Yeah. And that's all that matters. And then that's, you know, I mean, that's the whole thing. If you're happy with it. That's good. And I you know, my thing is says that I don't want people to feel tied down. Like I had one student who did a watercolor of she was she was an African, she wanted to do the elephants on the beach. And she, she didn't like the elephant. She liked the beach part of it. And I said, well, let's just what else can we do? Do you want to cut out an elephant out of something else, and we picked fabric and she'd put fabric elephants there. And then she loved the painting. And so I don't want I want people to like, and that's what I was trying to teach the kids is I didn't want them throwing out their work ever. Just see if you can change it. So that you like it. You know, don't don't feel tied down to one media. You can't you know, that's not necessary. You can always add add to it. But great advice. I was thought to do that. Would you let us know? That's the artist in her. Exactly. I love how you're using all the examples to remind us that, you know, we can do this. So people listening will probably get inspired and understand that everybody has something in them right that they could bring out and I love that. Yeah. And even if they keep it private, it's just for them. That's, that's okay. Yeah. That's what if that's the way that's the way it feels. That's the way it'll be. You don't have to show everybody but I think you know, it's just just a way. I mean, we're the only animal that can really create art. May they say that elephants can paint, but they don't know that they're painting. Do you know what I mean? The monkeys I saw somebody was selling monkey paintings. I'm like, Yeah, but they don't know what they're doing. They don't know what they're feeling. It's not a conscious effort. I want to make a flower, you know. So I think I think that we because we can, and unfortunately the schools have really let art go away, especially after COVID. It's just really scary to think that the kids aren't going to be doing that. Yeah, isn't out. But so I'm curiously so what would you need? What if you chose your name? What would it be? Well, because I was when I was born, Lisa, I there were not too many leases around. And my mother had picked a name when she was a teenager because her sister had a friend named Lisa. So that's how I got that name. But I think I always thought I would be Elissa Alicia, or something a little slightly different, but not not that everybody has a name that everybody has. Because I was just really sad. When I was like five, there were leases everywhere. And I was like, ah like that. Well, is there anything else you want to share with our listeners? No, I just I just hope they pick up magazines and put their hard onto paper, tearing, tearing, and just put images in words that feel good. And then if you want to know more, ask questions with a dominant hand and answer with your non dominant hand. And if you ever want to take a course just look at my website. That's awesome. Before we wrap up, I have to ask you something because I'm sitting here and you can't see and nobody listening can see. But off to the side, I have my attempt at a vision board. And it seems to me like everything that you're talking about is is perfect for the vision boarding process. Right? Is that something that you offer that you walk people through? Absolutely. And also, the woman that I said before I read the 14 books, one of her books is visioning. And it's all about the vision board. And yes, the thing about vision boards is that it's not magic, it's if you think about it in an intelligent way, once you put those images of what you would like to do onto a visual board, and look at it all the time, then it's on the top of your mind. And when you hear people talking about something like that, then you're you're picking it up like my girlfriend when a friend she wanted to travel. And so she put all these travel things and then she kept I guess hearing and listening for people who wanted to travel and she finally found somebody who wanted to travel like she and they went together. So those division you boy that you know it's not people think like oh, it's going to be magic. It's not really magic. It's just that once you put those images in front of yourself and and you think about it a lot, those those things can happen and sometimes it's Kismet. You know sometimes money comes from you don't know where to help you get where you need to be, but I've done the vision boards are pretty easy to do online, so I can do that online. Yeah, I actually have I've created a few and one of them I have just on regular construction paper taped to my bathroom mirror. So that every morning when I'm blow drying my hair, I just look at images and the words so it makes you happy. It does. And it reminds me right like just like you said it just keeps keeps those things top of mind. Yeah, so So that's a great tip. Thank you guys. Thanks for coming on. Yeah. This This is fascinating stuff. I just, I think what you're doing is so great. They caught us that, you know, they I guess she found me and she was like, Oh, that's interesting. Can you come do a thing? And I was like, yeah, yeah, no, I think that is that would be phenomenal and something that everybody would really, really, really enjoy. So thank you. It's something different, you know, it's like a different way to express yourself and think about your life. Well, and the thing is, is one of the things that I I like to do, you know, I did a lot of conferences, thing in the conferences. Everybody's just yapping at the epi talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And I'm like, No, we're going to do, we're not going to talk we're going to do because I think it's better you get you need to get out of out of your head sometimes about talking and just kind of get into yourself and doing as the way and doing something personal is good. Absolutely. Fantastic. Lisa, thank you again, we really appreciate no problem learning some more about you and about art therapy and its magic effects. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, it was great talking to you.