December 2025 Bonus Episode

This is our new season of bonus episodes of the Reading Teachers Lounge podcast.  In this season of exclusive extra episodes, Shannon and Mary welcome reading teachers from the field to join their discussions and share their unique teaching experiences.

In this December 2025 bonus episode, Mary and Shannon welcome Cindi Bauman to the Reading Teachers Lounge.   Cindi is a middle school reading specialist with a wealth of experience and passion for reading education.  During the chat, Cindi shares her journey from being a special education teacher to becoming a certified dyslexia interventionist through advanced training and her personal inspiration from her son's struggles with dyslexia. They delve into the specifics of her role, the methodologies she employs, including Orton-Gillingham and the highly effective Corrective Reading program, and the importance of evidence-based practices in closing reading gaps. The discussion also highlights the need for systemic changes in teacher education programs and the critical role of SEL in supporting struggling readers. Cindi's insights offer valuable lessons for educators, parents, and advocates aiming to improve reading interventions and educational outcomes for all students.

00:00 Welcome and Introduction

00:25 Cindi Bauman's Background and Journey

01:52 Current Role and Teaching Methods

04:19 Corrective Reading Curriculum

07:21 Challenges and Successes in Middle School Reading

10:01 Assessment and Intervention Strategies

23:34 Systemic Support and Collaboration

32:22 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

RECOMMENDED RESOURCES RELEVANT TO THE EPISODE:

1. CERI Certifications
2. Corrective Reading
3. Mount St. Joseph University Reading Science Program
4. Gallistel-Ellis assessment
5. Order form for Gallistel-Ellis Test Kit
6. San Diego Quick Assessment

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Transcript

December 2025 Bonus with Cindi Bauman

Shannon Betts: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Reading Teachers Lounge. This is another one of our e extra episodes where we're welcoming teachers that we've met through the internet that are working in the field, that we've invited them to join our conversations here in the Reading Teachers Lounge. And so we are so excited. Mary and I are here to welcome Cindi Bauman.

To the reading teachers lounge and can't wait to hear. Tell us about your teacher training and where you're currently teaching and all about yourself. 

Cindi Bauman: Okay, great. Thanks for having me on. I'm really excited. I actually was a special education teacher for about 15 years and I had gone through the College of St.

Rose, which is in Albany, and, I worked in early intervention and then I worked through BO Cs as an itinerant teacher. And then my son was diagnosed with dyslexia when he was in third grade. And we were very fortunate that he had a highly trained teacher [00:01:00] and was able to provide him what he needed for reading instruction.

And I decided to go back to school at, mount St. Joseph's and get certified and to become a reading teacher. So I spent two years in their master's program and it really totally changed my life. I, it, it, I feel like it's my calling to teach reading. And through that program I because there's an Orton-Gillingham practicum, I was able to become a certified dyslexia interventionist through CERI.

So I have that. And then the program also trains you how to use circadian for oral reading fluency as well. So I walked away with a lot of knowledge that I don't think I would've gotten otherwise if I tried to piecemeal it on my own. 

Shannon Betts: That's fascinating. And then where are you applying now? All this knowledge that you got in your wonderful training?

Yep. What is your current role? 

Cindi Bauman: Yeah, I'm currently a middle school reading specialist, so sixth through sixth through eighth graders in a suburban school district. [00:02:00] And our, we have students with a variety of needs coming to us. And there's actually, there's me and two other teachers who are working, who are providing intervention.

I, I see my students every day. The other teachers see their students every other day. So we have a tiered system for reading intervention. 

Mary Saghafi: I love that your students are so lucky that you have such high certification and training so good on you. It's one of, you're one of the first people that I've heard from and it's likely because it's recently that you feel like your training, your college training has really.

Prepared you well, so that's amazing and wonderful and I'm so happy and excited for you. Can you tell us just a little bit about, you know, what your day kind of looks like? 

Cindi Bauman: Sure. I I have five periods of for my students, so I have a couple planning, three planning periods in there. So [00:03:00] I see my groups of students for 42 minutes each day, and they.

They vary in size. My intervention numbers are, are larger. I have anywhere from seven to 13 students in my classes and we're using corrective reading this. This is our second year with corrective reading. And it's been a game changer. Before that I was using Orton Gillingham and I don't think I'll ever go back after discovering corrective reading and just the impact it's been, it's had on my students.

Mary Saghafi: I think the problem with Orton-Gillingham, it's not really a problem, but it's really just a whole methodology and so that it lends itself to teacher created interventions, which are wonderful, but extremely time consuming, and it, it takes a long time to kind of utilize all of the. You know, pieces of the curriculum and create multisensory things.

And I recently discovered using an Orton-Gillingham based curriculum has just really [00:04:00] been so wonderful for me as well as far as just making sure I'm encompassing all of the pieces of the lesson, making sure that I'm like, you know, held accountable with curriculum standards and, and it just keeps me in line with sequencing.

So I'm so happy for you too. That's wonderful. 

Cindi Bauman: Thank you. 

Shannon Betts: Can y'all fill me in on corrective reading? So it's an actual curriculum that Yes. Is aligned with Orton-Gillingham. 

Cindi Bauman: It's actually it's direct instruction. So it has, it's based on like 60 years of research and it was first developed. It wasn't reading first, it was one of the, I'm sorry, I'm blanking on it now that it was when they formulated it, they, I did the trials through a government program, and it showed so many benefits, but because there were so many push, there was pushback against the other methodologies that weren't pop more popular at the time. It kind of faded to the backdrop, but it has [00:05:00] really it, it, it works like it really, it, it encompasses things in that lesson that it would take me.

Weeks of planning to formulate into one Orton-Gillingham lesson. It's, there's a lot of interleaving. There is you break down the sounds in the words, then you read the words, and then you read those words in the text. And then they do timed readings with each other. So there's a lot of practice so they can see, and then they chart their progress.

So every day you follow the same sequence. And this was the first year 'cause after using Orton-Gillingham for so long that my students after summer break instead of summer slide, there was a few, but the majority of them actually came back with stronger reading skills. They moved up, like if you look at beginning, middle, or end of year with their orff, some of them went from middle to end of [00:06:00] year in their number of words.

They were able to read correctly and maintain their accuracy. Over their summer without intervention. 

Mary Saghafi: That is wonderful. Congratulations. 

Cindi Bauman: That's so great. Yeah, I, I'm like, I'm, I'm completely sold on it. When the kids sold too. Do they like it? Some of them do, they don't mind the routine. Initially there was some pushback because they liked the Orton-Gillingham lesson, but I also had to cut it into two days to fit everything in.

And so the pacing at first was an adjustment, but they, it was just remarkable to me how we came back this year and after two weeks of doing the benchmarking. Process for, with all of them that my students who are returning to me actually fell right in line and knew the routine. So they do, I think they like the predictability of it and they know what to do.

And, I [00:07:00] think many of them do see the benefit of why we do what we do, whether or not they're actually admit that out loud. Sometimes it's a different different story. But I've had the confidence I see in in them is the best. It's the most rewarding part. It is. That's why we're,

Shannon Betts: that's why we stay in the field.

Cindi Bauman: Right, right. 

Shannon Betts: What are you hearing positive things from them? Other content area teachers, like other students able to apply that improved fluency and vocabulary skills to, to everything, every reading area. 

Cindi Bauman: At some, because there's still the, the gaps are still existing, but we did see progress in the map last year was the first year that we were within 50% across the three grades towards the map.

After just one year of intervention. The so two, myself and another colleague use corrective reading 'cause she primarily works with sixth grade, but the teacher for the seventh and eighth grade is [00:08:00] using rewards. So we kind of. Put them together. And I think the three of us working together using this program is what created that shift.

So I think she's seeing more carry over into the classroom 'cause she's closing the gap closer to grade level. And my kids were trying to move them 'cause we do a tiered process. So if I get them within two grade levels. With their fluency, then they will go to the other teacher and start rewards. So some, I see my students being willing to read more and take more risks, but I'm not, I'm not always seeing them close the gap to the grade level content.

Because some of them have gaps, like I've worked anywhere with a. Five year to a three year gap. 

Shannon Betts: That's what's gonna be my next question is like the typical group, like where do your students mainly fall? Is it about like a second, third grade level where they've got sort of all the one syllable words and vowel sounds down and then you're just doing [00:09:00] multi syllables and morphines?

Or break it down for me. 'cause a lot of times Mary and I are usually talking about like. Early beginning emergent readers. 

Cindi Bauman: Yes, and I do have, even though they're in middle school, I do have a number of early beginning. Emerging readers. So I have some students because they're ELLs or I've had students who've come in from other districts who are barely at like a first grade fluency level that they're still working on some foundational skills.

And then I have students who are within. Like one year of their grade level. Sometimes. I had a student like that last year. But his foundational pH phonics knowledge just wasn't, he could spell some CVC, some CCVC, but he couldn't he had no word attack skills because he just didn't have that knowledge.

So I kept him. To bolster those skills before I, because you want those foundation skills in place before [00:10:00] you start rewards. So it's a real I just never, that's why it's so important that I do that benchmarking at the beginning year. 'cause we start with the, with the Acadian or, and then I, we actually use San Diego for our incoming students to get a ballpark where to start instead of starting at the sixth grade and then working on the way down that's fatiguing and it, and stresses them out.

Like how they would internalize that, that frustration of doing the same test over and over. And then I use the gal Ellis to test a coding for phonics. Spelling and word reading and based on, 'cause I don't do an additional phonemic awareness screener because of that included in pretty much with, I get a ballpark of their font phonemic awareness skills from a, with the lower levels that K one two piece.

Mary Saghafi: I [00:11:00] so appreciate you, you know, being specific about the. Assessments that you use, because I think that that is really the foundation of determining where your students are. And I'm, I'm a little curious now to kind of talk about the motivation and how you can keep motivating your students at these levels that I do kind of wonder, you know, just like 42 minutes.

How are you able to get through a lesson or do you have kind of a rhythm of your lessons? What does that kind of look like? 

Cindi Bauman: Yeah, so it we. With it being a scripted program. I know some people are, are iffy on those, but it's just, to me, it's just a gift because it's all there and then I can really focus on how they're responding.

But yeah, so I follow it and I keep a tight routine like I. I displayed the points as they earn them on the board. I know there's supposed to be, like, there's usually four different components of the lesson, and so if everybody's within a certain percentage of accuracy, they earn certain points throughout.[00:12:00] 

And then I even have a bonus section up there for like, if they come in and they get their book open and ready to go to the lesson, if they're staying engaged, if they're not interrupting. Like, so I have a lot of really, i've created a lot of structure around expectations in the classroom that we have to do the whole lesson.

It's only gonna help them in the end, and then like, they'll see, like it's the joke because usually I am, I get a little goofy by the end of the week, so I'm kind of dancing and like sing song. Some of it when I'm doing the lesson. So even though they're in middle school and they'll, they'll pretend like I'm cringe.

They think I'm funny. So I try to. Silly with them. 'cause I feel like they still need that. And then I praise them. Like when I see that effort happening and we, we just talk about how, you know, because of my son's dyslexia, I have sometimes my phonemic awareness isn't the best and we just model the ex.

Model acceptance of making mistakes, and that [00:13:00] sometimes if your brain's tired, it's okay. You just have to tell me that you're having an off day to support that social emotional development with them too. And that we, we go back and we try again tomorrow. So I, I allow them to have some agency based on where they're at that day, because middle school is hard enough.

And then I feel like sometimes students carry things we can't even imagine. Just to give them the ability to advocate for themselves is important too. 

Shannon Betts: Yeah. You're speaking our language here. I mean, with the motivation and meeting 'em where they are and getting them engaged, and I love all that and adding that social emotional piece, especially going through puberty and puberty and everything, and then it's got to.

Feels so frustrating. I've, I've, I've had a little bit of experience at the private school I was at with middle school students, and I've had a few of those struggling readers in those grades, and it's just like to have been passed on so many years, you know, it's like, okay, maybe you're in [00:14:00] third grade and like you, you know, you're struggling to read.

Like, that's still sad, but like, it's, it's, it's a real tragedy, like when they get all the way to middle school and they're still having those deficits and just to imagine like. What I've noticed about those students is like, when they're in the regular class, there's like a frenzy of like how they're trying to like, keep up with the, with the bulk of the class, of just like copying from their peers and frantically copying from the board and just sort of like, okay, how can I do these things and sort of look like I'm keeping up even though I can't read?

A single thing on the page that's in front of me. 

Mary Saghafi: Yeah.

Shannon Betts: And it's really hard for them. So I'm, I'm glad that your classroom is a safe space where everybody can feel comfortable making mistakes and grow together. And it just sounds like that's exactly. What they need to, to, to have an environment where then they can make progress and finally learn the missing skills.

So, and I don't know if you, like, we've all been teaching a long time, like I had heard like a myth like when I [00:15:00] first started teaching that like kids after the fourth grade can't learn phonics. And I have never found that to be true. 

Cindi Bauman: Yep. Yeah, it's never too late. And I think that's the biggest opt obstacle, like when we're trying to talk with content area teachers, because first of all, they're not trained in the teacher prep programs.

And then I think some of those myths are so instilled in within us that they, that it's almost. Acceptable on some level. Well, they can't read, but they, they have access to tech. We can just, like, they, you don't have to write because you can just type and like all or voice memos and like, I feel like it just feeds into that.

And that is definitely one of my, as a parent and as a member of society who sees the literacy crisis we're in, that is always my biggest. Beef, like, no, we have to, it's never too late. We have to, we have to teach 'em. We have to catch them early or not catch 'em early. We have to catch 'em when we can and [00:16:00] give them what they need to be successful.

'cause it's a lifelong, 

Shannon Betts: yeah. Mary and I were just speaking with another parent about how her own child's depression was linked to the struggles with reading. And then as the reading skills increased, the depression decreased, you know? Yeah. 

Cindi Bauman: Yeah, no, they, they carry that, they know, they know that they're different than their peers.

Like my own son. He would, he used to have afterschool before he got diagnosed. It wasn't until third grade, he would have to afterschool restraints collapse. So he'd come home and he'd be like a puddle and he couldn't, I thought he had sensory processing disorders. He also, he used to hide his report cards from his older siblings, like they just.

It is such a burden for them to carry. And it's never, and I owe, and I'm very clear with my students about that. It's not you, it you haven't had the right instruction. And so that's how I try to get them to buy [00:17:00] in. Like, you've gotta give me a chance. We're gonna work through this together. And because you're.

I, and I always tell them this too, I don't care about you just in this classroom. I care about you everywhere you go. And so it's really important that we give you the skills you need so you can have the life you want. 

Mary Saghafi: I, I think you know, most special education teachers really are very empathetic, but I think it brings a different level of understanding when.

Your own family member you know, has gone through something like this. And when you can see it on the parent side and also that feeling of helplessness, like, oh, I've been trained in this. And, and I, I see this so often as a dyslexia advocate that parents just try to dig really deep and kids who are so lucky enough to have a strong support system and parents who have the time, ability, and capability of, you know, digging deep and, and starting to understand [00:18:00] or being able to get the resources.

My heart often goes out too. People who don't have access to those resources. Or even teachers such as yourself in higher grades who have the educational piece that's really required to reach all student readers. But I hear often for middle school teachers, well, I don't know how to read, so they should have taught him in elementary school, and that is such a harmful statement and.

I don't wanna say harmful, I wanna say unhelpful is really kind of how, how I see that. And I know that it comes from a defense mechanism because I've been there myself, where you feel defensive, like I've gone through years of training to be a teacher, but some kids get it, some kids don't. Also not helpful.

So yeah, no I, yeah, I'm very. Interested to hear, you know, kind of what the process looks like in middle school too, because I think that there [00:19:00] are a lot of executive executive functioning demands that have to be met. There's a lot of growth and changes and hormonal changes and reflection on who you are as a person and who your peers are and how you fit into that.

And so, mm-hmm. Navigating this age is interesting, but I also think that students at that age are. Sometimes even somewhat more malleable to helping them because they're at a, at a place where they're looking for support from people outside of their family, and hopefully that is a caring teacher who's trained for.

So I, I love that for you. That's how I'm kind of interpreting your conversation. 

Cindi Bauman: No, I love it. No, thank you. Yeah, no, I think it's really important and yeah, because I think that just knowing too, like I, people always assumed because I was a special ed teacher, that I knew how to help my son and I didn't, and that's why it was so important for me to [00:20:00] go to.

Mount St. Joseph's and get that, that understanding and like just the using my voice at work and I see some of the changes like the te the, some of the teachers are starting to recognize when they should refer students to get the reading evaluation. And that's when we do Acadian Orff and we do the GE spelling.

'cause that's a great way to get insight into their phonics knowledge. And so there, there we, even last year, I put together what to look for when you should refer a student to us for, for the eval. And so that's being shared as well. So I'm just always trying to be proactive and really trying to get as many students help, the help they need before they leave us and.

You know we have that, we have that window, we might as well capitalize on it. 

Shannon Betts: So one quick question. I'll ask both questions, but one probably has a quick answer. So are y'all like considered like a tier two intervention? Like it's not special ed, it's just like [00:21:00] extra intervention during the school day.

And then I also wanted to ask like if it's pull out like how are the teachers able to get grades and like do the things that they need to do with the regular grade level standards?

Cindi Bauman: What, so we are, so I'm considered tier three even though I'm not because I do have students with IEPs. So because I have them daily and then our tier two teachers have them every other day, and we are on their schedule so we don't interrupt their other classes. So. We are a scheduled course. We just put that they're enrolled.

We don't have to enter a grade. 

Shannon Betts: So, okay. I'm just thinking about this. My son is in middle school and I think he has four periods. Yeah. So the fact that y'all are five. Okay. That's how he wipes in. 

Cindi Bauman: Yeah. Yeah. And we actually have eight periods during the day. So there's the four, there's the four [00:22:00] content. We don't teach more than five in a day out of the eight periods.

So there's, some of them have a study hall, there's pe, science, I mean, not science, but art. There's a STEM class, so they have electives on top of those four content classes. And what and what the state mandates like that they need. Music, pe, things like that. 

Shannon Betts: So they're not missing, they have a regular ELA that's for sixth, seventh, or eighth grade.

Okay. Very interesting. That's, that's a great way to set up. That's your whole state or district that's like that.

Cindi Bauman: That's how, that's how we do it within our district, I believe some other districts. And that's where, there is a gap some districts don't have reading at the middle school level or at the high school level.

So that's where I think we're a little fortunate. We do have a reading teacher at the high [00:23:00] school but I think that's being looked at more. Because we're, we're just very fortunate that we have very forward thinking people within our district who are seeing the needs and wanna. Make sure our students are are getting what they need intervention wise.

Mary Saghafi: I love that. I'm kind of curious how the ball got rolling for that because you know, would it be teacher voices or parent voices or just people who are also happen to have an interest in the place of power within the district? 

Cindi Bauman: Well, we're we're fortunate that one of our, the k our K through five director was, I actually know her from my previous job came to the district and she's a ladders trainer, so, oh, great.

So she, she has the vision and is, a strong advocate within her job and within the community. So we're very fortunate that her and her, her. Magical [00:24:00] self came to the district and she sees

Shannon Betts: that it doesn't stop at fifth grade. So she's helping set up systems in place in the later grades and schooling so that they can continue to get what they need.

That's fantastic. And is forward thinking, like you said. 

Cindi Bauman: Yeah. And the sixth through 12th director works closely with her and. He saw the need for reading when he was a middle school principal, so they're, it's like the Wonder Twins. So they're working together to make sure things are in place and they're very wonderful for contacting about your concerns and all that very open to hearing teacher voice.

So that's definitely a boon. 

Mary Saghafi: That's fantastic. I'm so happy for you. Thank you. I, I also think that, you know, it can be a call to action for any of our listeners as well. You know, if you are so inclined and you have the ability to go, you know, get a little bit of extra training, [00:25:00] those contacts really can start to have a ripple effect and really affect change in your community.

So I'm so excited for your position and for your students because truly. If you can get them to you know, close to or within the grade level, they will be much better ready for college and career readiness, which is really the true end goal. Especially you know, getting them right in middle school.

It's just fantastic. And I wanted to clarify too, so, I when your students qualify for reading intervention support, the teacher does a referral and then it goes into the MTSS referral, or is it just through reading? 

Cindi Bauman: Yeah, it's just directly, it comes directly to us and then Wow. We look, so then we look at our schedules and see in their schedules and see which one of the three of us can pull them to do the initial screening.

And then we just send, you know, we send an email to the. Let them know what the results were, speak with the [00:26:00] parents, and then have it added to their schedule. 

Shannon Betts: Do you do that? Is to get parent consent, but it's not this formal diagnosis, formal thing. 

Cindi Bauman: Right. Just so that they're aware, like, this is what, this is what we're seeing, this is the need for it.

Because I think that's the biggest, parents wanna know what's happening with their, with their students and mm-hmm. You know, students sometimes, because I think one of the biggest issues too is that the students struggle for so long and mm-hmm. That it's almost like we've talked before, they're not always aware.

That they're struggling. 'cause sometimes they think that's just how it's going to be. And, and I think sometimes parents, without the knowledge, they don't understand that they're, how the struggle that their child is having. So just to, and the, if we just pull them and then change their schedule, I've had students become quite upset 'cause they're like, wait a second.[00:27:00] 

So I think just involving everybody in the process so that. The parents's aware, the students' aware just smooths it out a little bit and just allows the parent to reassure their child that this is the right thing for them. 

Mary Saghafi: That is so interesting 'cause I haven't seen it play out that way typically.

So I guess my next question would be, so if you are doing your reading interventions, are you collecting data? If you suspect that there might be you know, some more lack of progress, maybe they would qualify for an IEP. Are you part of that team? Are you leading that team? 

Cindi Bauman: I'm not leading that team.

We, I do collect data 'cause I do progress monitoring every two weeks. And then the corrective reading also has a 10 every 10 lessons. We do that as well. So I do share that with our SST process. When I, and with their with the team lead, 'cause each we have two, like we have a team lead for. Two wings of sixth grade [00:28:00] to seventh to eighth.

So I contact them and share my concerns and we see what the team decides on that. 

Shannon Betts: Are you a grade on the report card since you're on their schedule? 

Cindi Bauman: No. Nope. We just mark that they're enrolled. So it's, I, you know, sometimes that can. I think it just helps them on some level to not have a grade. You know, I know it's important that they're not graded, but although some of them will use that as well, it's not graded.

And I said, but it's the most important class of your day. So

Mary Saghafi: I, I really like that and I actually I do kind of appreciate the fact that it's not a graded course because kids are so. Either highly motivated or highly anxious, or highly preoccupied or very you know, just perfectionist about what those details are. And I love that it is the most important class of their day and they don't have to worry [00:29:00] about, you know, that, that tiny piece, that grade, that bugger grade.

Exactly right. It's just, 

Cindi Bauman: yeah, let's just work on your reading. No grade. Let's go. 

Mary Saghafi: I'm so I love the model that your school has. I'm just, I'm so grateful that that is in existence and I think. I'm happy to share that model with other schools. As I come to, to find out, I think that we, we need to have more opportunities to share what's working in other places.

'cause it does sort of feel like we're very siloed, not just in our classrooms, but also within our schools or our districts. And I think even districts can sometimes, you know, stick to their own same routine and, and. Our world is changing too fast to keep sticking to what's not working. Right, 

Cindi Bauman: right, right.

And I think that's just the, the joy of it all though, like if you're going to follow the evidence-based practices, you [00:30:00] always end the MTSS system too. It's best ability. You always have to have a, a level of discomfort almost that you have to always be looking forward like, what do I need to change?

What's working? What do I need to learn more of? Okay. You always have to be in that state of, of that metacognitive process and just looking at the process and what you need to do to improve. And I feel some. There, and I feel like that's pretty much the only path forward. And so I think that's the hardest part is getting people to get to that point where they're okay being uncomfortable and you, you don't always have to be the most knowledgeable or ex or have the highest level of expertise in the room, that it's okay that we're, we're in it together and the the kids are what matter the most at the end.

Shannon Betts: This remind, this feels like one of those, you know how like the nightly news will try to end on like a happy [00:31:00] story of like, okay, the world's not ending completely. Here's a happy story from some small town to like cheer you up. But this, this sort of feels like that. It just feels nice to know that there's some good things happening, you know?

And it's good to know that your students, where they are in New York are like going to your classroom every day and you're actually. Doing the work to close the achievement gap, which is just amazing. That must feel very rewarding every day to just go, okay, I'm really, I'm getting 'em closer and closer and closer.

Mm-hmm. 

Cindi Bauman: Mm-hmm. Yep. And building their confidence in their, in, in who they are at the same time. 'cause I feel like that's always the biggest piece too, is that by the time they get to me, their confidence isn't always, and so sometimes it comes out sideways. Mm-hmm. And you'll see more behaviors.

Kareem Weaver is like also my favorite. Oh yes. Quote is that the number one Sel L is teach 'em to read. And I feel that would solve so many issues. If we get them young. We teach 'em right the first time. [00:32:00] Another quote, Stephanie Stoller. 

Shannon Betts: And when they get to the just right work that's within their ZPD, it, like my students would almost just.

Sigh and relief and just be like, they would, they would always say like, this is fun. Even though it was just the most boring thing, you know, but it was fun for them because they could actually be successful. Yep. Success is fun. 

Cindi Bauman: Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. 

Mary Saghafi: Yeah. And I think that's probably why that curriculum feels so positive to you too, because you know that you're meeting all of those elements, you know that you can track the progress.

The students are feeling the progress. That's, that's where it really like where the rubber meets the road, right? Like you're just like, oh, we're, we're making this happen. Keep, keep on. While we have you, are there any other things that you would like to add or share? 

Cindi Bauman: I, I guess just back to that, SEL think that mm-hmm.

Piece is that I think a lot of people within education and outside of [00:33:00] education, like don't recognize the trauma that is caused by just passing kids through without the ability to read and how that, that carries into their behavior, into their ability to complete work. Ability to show what they know, and that that's really a huge missing piece that we have that should be motivating as a society that we are.

This is a, a problem that has been created that has an apparent solution that we've known about for a very long time. But we are putting children through unnecessary pain and humiliation by waiting to address it more. Quickly. 

Shannon Betts: I 100% agree with you. And I will say I've had many colleagues who unfortunately weren't aware.

They, they didn't know that their kids didn't know how to read. And it wasn't until like our school started doing ORFs regularly or [00:34:00] reading fluencies that, I mean, that's what it has. That's what it has to come down to. It's like you have to sit down with every single kid one-on-one and listen to them read regularly.

That's the only way you're gonna actually have accurate information. You can't just rely on the map testing. You can't just rely on the state testing. You can't just rely on if they're participating in class or not. Mm-hmm. You have to just sit there and listen to them. Read for one minute. Then you'll know so much in one minute, but you know, when you have 30 kids in the class, it's, it, it is time consuming to do that, but it's that, that's what made me break that cycle when I was a third grade teacher, even early in my career, it was like, whoa.

The second I heard students missing certain words, like over and over and over. I knew I immediately had to make changes to my instruction. And then there was, you know, a domino effect. But I think that some, if you, if you're not in a, in a school that requires that and you're not aware that you need to do that as like a third or fourth or fifth grade teacher, then they might get [00:35:00] passed on through.

Cindi Bauman: Yeah. Yeah. And then I just, and I do feel for the teachers who, because there's always that regret that comes with it when you. Become more aware of evidence-based practices and you realize what you didn't know and how that impacted your students. And I just, my heart does break for them because you're always, I think you don't go into teaching without caring about kids and wanting to do what's best for them and best practices.

And so that's where I do get really right now, my biggest, gruff is against teacher ed programs because like New York State finally is online in that with, they signed legislation and that the local 'cause that's why I couldn't choose a local college to go to. I had to choose one online out of state, but that they're still like a resistance to what they actually have to do to make it work for their teachers to lead their [00:36:00] knowing how to teach kids how to read.

How to teach math and like my, I, my oldest graduated a year ago and he's a physics teacher and he was telling me about a student who like failed the one of his regions four times. And I said, can he read? And he just looks at me. I'm like, yeah, there's a reason. Like if you don't get to the core of the program problem, you can teach, you can tap dance all you want up there, honey.

But if they're not being supported in the classroom with evidence-based practices, then. The gap, the gap's not going to close. And that's the other piece I think needs to happen to intervention alone isn't going to help close these gaps. Those tier, those evidence-based practices, vocabulary, background knowledge, even fluency practice in the middle school content area classes needs to accompany the intervention.

And that's when we're gonna really get the biggest movement. 

Mary Saghafi: Yeah, [00:37:00] that's super well said. And I think you're, you're a hundred percent spot on. I still feel frustration with my teacher prep program and I think that that is, I don't know where to put that energy, you know what I mean? Other than back into your students, but it's still there.

It's still lingers. It's frustrating. We don't want, we don't want this to continue. We want to move forward. And if districts are not helping support teachers to either get some training or, or things like that, then it's up to teachers to pay for it. And that is also, in my mind, not acceptable because it, it, I really feel like it's not acceptable.

Many other careers don't have to pay for. All of their professional development the way that teachers do. And I do believe that we should stand up for our profession, and I think others will respect our profession more. You know, when, when all of these things kind of come to line. But, you know, that's my soapbox.

Cindi Bauman: No, I, I'm right there with you. So,[00:38:00] 

yeah. No, and I do feel like, and that's the hardest part too, 'cause when teachers first notice and they want to learn more, that knowing where to turn. Is also hard because there are what I call sore light or sore sprinkle programs that don't get to the depth you need to know in order to be effective, and then you don't know.

You know that whole gap again. You don't know what you don't know, and you can't look at the curriculum to know what's missing, what gaps to fill, what to advocate for, and then so you're, and then you probably start to feel like you're spinning your wheels and just how frustrating that would feel. 'cause you wanna know better, you wanna do better, but you're not getting the support to make that happen.

Shannon Betts: I think that that's the first time I've heard that phrased that way with like the science of Reading Sprinkle. But like I think we are in danger of, as a field of a lot of that happening as this legislation comes about in all the different states [00:39:00] because curriculums are just like frantically, like wanting to do the minimum that they can to slap that science of reading label on it.

Mm-hmm. Without it really being depth and quality. So yeah, I know that like the reading league and other. Groups are like really trying to not police it, but like, you know, just be trusted curators of. Okay, let's, let's really look at the nitty gritty and like every single part of this. And is it a really in depth quality or is it just the sprinkle light?

Cindi Bauman: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like that's, and that's, yeah. And I know the reading league is trying to fill that gap in other programs as well, and I feel like that's, very ambitious and much needed, and I just wish that there was more push against those companies to actually adhere and change their programs to evidence-based [00:40:00] instead of like, you know, slapping a new label on the, on the box saying there's so signs of reading aligned when they haven't really made the necessary changes.

Mary Saghafi: I have thoroughly enjoyed our talk. I think that you are a true gift to your district and your students, especially also for your son who you know, you know, you can just tell that you are completely aware of students. You, you see them and you are there to support them. And so. Thank you for doing that hard work and for being such a presence and then also sharing that with us today and to all of our listeners.

It's so nice to have you in the Reading Teachers Lounge. I hope that everybody enjoyed eavesdropping in on this conversation 'cause this is this is the a plus teacher right here. 

Cindi Bauman: Thank you. It's been lovely meeting both of you and I love having this opportunity. It's been a great conversation.

My family was very happy [00:41:00] that I had somebody else to talk about it with so they didn't have to hear it. So 

Shannon Betts: think that's why we started the podcast just so we would have a reason to talk more about it. 

Cindi Bauman: You gotta channel that energy. Yeah, right. 

Shannon Betts: No, you're, this has been a delight. Thank you so much, Cindy.

Oh, thank you so much. Have a wonderful night. 

Cindi Bauman: You 

too. 

Shannon Betts: Great.