Addiction: The Next Step

From Hitting Big to Hitting Bottom: A Cautionary Gambling Tale

• NYS OASAS

Share episode

Could a single win at a casino change the course of your life? Scott Meyer joins us to recount his emotional journey from casual gambling with friends and family to an all-consuming addiction that started with a jackpot win at age 32. Scott paints a vivid picture of how offshore gambling sites turned his pastime into an obsession that threatened his relationships and career. His story is a stark illustration of the warning signs of problem gambling and the courage it takes to confront the issue both personally and with loved ones.

We also shine a light on the transformative power of peer support in recovery, a path Scott himself has embraced. Alongside Brenda Harris-Collins from the Recovery Bureau at OASAS, we explore how Scott's role in peer support fosters a sense of community and hope for those affected by gambling harm. We discuss initiatives to expand access to trained peers and the development of a peer training curriculum, which aim to build a robust support network through community outreach centers. This episode promises insights not only into the struggles of gambling addiction but also the inspiring resilience found in recovery.

Isabel Byon:

The New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports, or OASAS, provides this podcast as a public service. Thoughts and opinions expressed do not necessarily represent or reflect those of the agency or state. This is Addiction: The Next Step.

Jerry Gretzinger:

Hey everybody, Jerry Gretzinger, here, your host of Addiction: The Next Step and we are coming to you from the New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports we're taking an opportunity today to talk about another area of addiction that we focus on and that we work with people with, and that is problem gambling. And in New York State, certainly across the nation, around the world, there are so many more ways that people get involved with gambling and that type of entertainment and, you know, in a certain amount of it, some people will tell you it can be fun, it can be certainly entertaining, but, like so many things that are fun and entertaining, there is also the potential that it can get out of hand, it can get out of control, and today we're going to talk about how that's happened. and we're also going to talk about some new ways that we're trying to help people who are finding themselves in that position. So let me tell you who the lovely people are who are sitting down to talk with us about this today. We've got Brenda Harris-Collins. She's one of our own here, the director from the Recovery Bureau here at OASAS. Also Scott Meyer. Scott is a peer at the New York Council on Problem Gambling and he helps to provide support.

Jerry Gretzinger:

Thank you both for sitting down with us today.

Brenda Harris-Collins:

Thank you for having us.

Jerry Gretzinger:

So, Brenda, I know we've spoken to you on the podcast before and that's just one of the reasons why I'm going to say we're going to get to you in a few minutes. But I really want to get into Scott's story, because when we talk about peers, Scott, we talk about people who have lived experience. Right, they've been through it, they've walked the walk and they're here to share their story now. And we're very pleased and thrilled that you're willing to share your story today, how you got to where you are today as a peer. So this is the point where I'm going to kind of make myself stop talking for a few minutes and let you take over. Take us back to the beginning. Everyone's story, everyone's journey starts with a couple of steps. Where did your path towards problem gambling begin?

Scott Meyer:

It's interesting that you ask that question, and I often wonder when it started. I know when the path to problematic gambling began somewhere around the age of 32. What's interesting, though, is you go back to childhood and how gambling is normalized in the youth and how it is seen as harmless entertainment. You know a scratch off ticket at Thanksgiving dinner. You know going to betting on the local neighborhood sporting events or learning how to play blackjack on your father's lap. There is so much normalization in the youth that it's interesting if it has an impact later in life, but during my young adulthood, gambling was seen as, or viewed as, a harmless form of entertainment. Occasional trips to Atlantic City with friends Gambling was secondary to why we were going there. We were going there to have fun and laugh and spend some time with friends, and then, at the age of 32, things changed, and for 13 years, ice, it started slow and steady and it went fast and furious and it became an obsession of mine.

Jerry Gretzinger:

Let me jump in really quick. Scott, you talked about how it changed At 32, it changed and obviously you said before that you'd go to Atlantic City and the motivator was to hang out with friends, to have a good time, share a few laughs. What were the things that maybe not at the time you noticed, but that in hindsight you look back and say that was a sign that it was changing? That was a sign that it was changing, because people might be wondering am I seeing that sign?

Scott Meyer:

That's a great question. Um, and and having the clarity during recovery to look back and see these moments. That happened. I had opened my own accounting firm and I began to have a career that was far more beneficial than I've ever realized. Um, and then we went to a casino. My wife and I went to a casino for a concert. We hit a big jackpot together. And what did we do that day? Got up and left the casino and the invites started flowing in. The opportunities to go to the casino were more often and it developed into a habitual like let's go this weekend, go up there and get the gift that they're offering.

Scott Meyer:

But the real change in the accessibility to gambling was and I'm dating myself now and I received a disc in the mail. I plugged it into my computer and within a minute I was gambling on these offshore gambling sites, and that was the change that made it fast and furious. I had access to gambling, just like the new laws would legalize sports betting. How the access became on your phone. I had access 24-7. And that's where it really took off became an obsession, became every aspect, every part, every component of my life was dedicated to gambling the need to gamble, the want to gamble. And more importantly, and of equal importance, the amount of time, effort I put into the deceit, the manipulation, the cover-ups, the secrets, the lies in order to continue gambling, because I was scared to death of what was happening to me, scared to tell my wife, scared to tell my business partner, afraid of my own self. And I just needed to win that big one to make it all right.

Jerry Gretzinger:

And so that fear that you felt I mean again, probably, I'm assuming not something you felt at that time, but now you know you said the clarity of being in recovery you could see that you were you were fearful of acknowledging what was going on, maybe not only to your loved ones, but also to yourself.

Scott Meyer:

That's correct. That's correct. I would look myself in the mirror and I was afraid of my own self. Uh, I, I couldn't stop. I stopped 30 times during that journey, 30 times that I can remember. I swore I would never gamble again. Driving home to the casino, shut the computer, deleted the apps, swore I would never do it again. And 30 times I went back. Why? Access to money. I went back to work, closed the deal, got money, went back to gambling. Never worked on myself, never knew where to go, didn't have access. There wasn't awareness. I was alone. I was in the chains of uh, imprisoned in the chains of addiction for literally 10 of those 13 years.

Jerry Gretzinger:

Wow. So I know you said that you tried 30 times, so then it begs the next question what was it? Was it the 31st time? If so, what happened that 31st time that made you not go to a 32nd and a 33rd, like what finally made this change for you?

Scott Meyer:

I wish I could say I had the courage to seek help, find it, talk to my wife, open up. I wish I had the courage. It was in July of 2013 that I received silver bracelets as a gift. I was arrested for acts that were committed as a result of gambling. I was taking money from people that trusted me. It was a horrifying event, but it was literally the day that my freedom was taken away and my freedom was given back to me. In that one day, it was over. It had to be over and, sadly, that's what it took.

Jerry Gretzinger:

So that's been how many years now since?

Scott Meyer:

It's 11 years. Since 11 years, two months and eight days, or seven days, who's counting?

Jerry Gretzinger:

But first of all congratulations on that. That's terrific. Thank you and you know, and before we get to Brenda and talk about the other piece of this that we want to address today, I think other people might want to know too. 11 years plus, that's tremendous, I have to imagine there are days that are not as easy as others.

Scott Meyer:

The journey of recovery is not a linear path at all. It is a roller coaster, especially in the beginning, when you're trying to navigate and build a foundation and answer all the questions and the whys. And the questions come from within yourself as well, like how, how did this happen? Why did this happen? You know? Why couldn't you stop? Where do you get help? Learning about the disease, learning about the brain functioning, of how gambling impacts the brain. There is so much in a recovery journey and finding your pathway, finding what works for you, you know. If you don't mind, I would just like to give a little shout out.

Scott Meyer:

I walked into GA the day after my wife bailed me out of prison, you know, to. You know to go and then and then start the journey of the legal system. And I walked into a GA room, a broken man, shoulders down, head down, emotional. I couldn't even. My feet were shaking, my legs were trembling and I sat in that room not knowing where I was going, what I was going to do and how it was going to happen. And two hours later I walked out of that room with my shoulders back, my head up and the word hope embedded in my brain that I would have a chance, because there was 40 other people in that room just like me. In one room in a local town there may 40 other people just like me and and the word hope with a capital h-o-P-E instilled in me.

Jerry Gretzinger:

And that's where it all started to change for you.

Scott Meyer:

It did, and the first two years of recovery were really the hardest One. I had legal system issues to deal with, but it's really a matter of looking at yourself in the mirror and starting to be honest with yourself, because if you're not honest with yourself, nothing can be honest, and it was that day that I finally realized that that was the moment that my recovery really began to take stance.

Jerry Gretzinger:

You know you talked about sitting in a room with 40 other people like yourself and we talked at the beginning about you know you being a peer, uh, and that I know that's something we're going to talk with Brenda now about, because that is so important.

Jerry Gretzinger:

And I, just before before we start that too, I want to say that I think some of the things you've said here are serving that same purpose of being a peer for people who may be listening. I think, too, you acknowledge that when you got that disc and I know what those were, so I'm dating myself too that came in the mail and how it gave you the constant access, right. And I think now, too, people are hearing this because, with the way you know the digital world is, that's available 24-7. You don't even need that disc anymore, right? So there may certainly be so many other people in the same situation who just maybe, just from that easy opportunity and access, are having a harder time. So let me ask you now, Brenda, to hop in here and as we talk about, you know, peers, you know what Scott's doing here is sort of new. It's sort of unique in the area of problem gambling and certainly something that we want to build on right.

Brenda Harris-Collins:

Yes, so we are excited about really OASAS taking the stance to. We've done problem gambling prevention. There is problem gambling treatment available, but now we are really developing problem gambling recovery. And as we begin to develop problem gambling recovery, one of the biggest parts of that is looking at how do we have individuals with lived experience who can share their lived experience with another person who is no different from them. They've experienced some of the similar challenges.

Brenda Harris-Collins:

These individuals, like Scott, provide non-clinical, strength-based support. They inspire hope. So we use that word hope today and that's what someone like Scott can do for someone and it's really important because many times individuals are and I heard Scott say that you know he didn't know where to go or what to do or how to manage or connect, but they want to connect with someone. Connecting with someone who's had that similar experience really helps to guide them and connect them to resources that can share. You know I've been there so I know that you know I understand what you're going through and you talked, Scott, about those other 40 people being there. So that peer relationship, that relationship it's not hierarchical, it's not someone who's sitting in a space talking down to you, but it's someone who you have that relationship and can build that relationship with. So it's really important that we begin to give people a voice and that you know this is part of that effort.

Jerry Gretzinger:

Yeah, and I think too, you kind of touched on this, I think, for people, sometimes, when they're at that point where they they believe something has to happen, they need to make some sort of change, to go right to, you know, like strictly treatment, it may, it may be difficult, it might be scary for them, but the opportunity to talk to someone who, as we said before, walked the walk, has been through it, I think, must you, would think, take a lot of that pressure off of them, because they've got somebody who understands. And Scott, in the work that you're doing now, I'm assuming, you see, that when people come to you, that being able to speak to someone like you maybe puts them at a greater sense of east.

Scott Meyer:

it does, it really does.

Scott Meyer:

Taking that first step is really difficult when you, when you have the ability to speak to someone who has comparable lived experiences and who has been professionally trained as a peer.

Scott Meyer:

It offers an opportunity for them to feel comfortable, a non-judgment, non-hierarchical area where they can just have open conversations and navigate these challenges, because the challenges are immense and, you know, ga is not the pathway for everybody. Each individual has their unique recovery journey. They have to find what works for them. I have been introduced to over 100 peers in this role and you know we connect, we go deep, we get emotional and I have to tell you, as a peer, this is not something that you can do if your recovery is not foundationally strong. You asked me eight years ago to do this. I would have said no way possible. This is a career, this is an opportunity. Peers should be recognized for what we give, and I think they are, and OASAS has done a wonderful job promoting this and I really, truly appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. We are advancing our recovery options for individuals and this is just an area where people can feel comfortable. That's a great word.

Jerry Gretzinger:

So, as we said before too, you work with the New York Council on Problem Gambling as a peer providing support, but you also work with Vibrant Behavioral Health, and they're the folks who work the Hope Line for us, correct.

Scott Meyer:

They do. I work with Vibrant Emotional Health. I'm in a totally separate part of vibrant emotional health. I am not connected with the whole plan at all. It's a great organization who has the infrastructure that can handle the the HOPE line access, and they they really do have individuals there for them.

Jerry Gretzinger:

Yeah, I just wanted to mention that because, again, your journey from 11 years ago to where you are today, you know being able to help so many people in different ways. I think is tremendous and, Brenda, I want to have us give one more plug, if we can, about wanting to build that peer base, to have more people get involved, to be able to do type of good work that Scott's now doing.

Brenda Harris-Collins:

Yeah, so you know we're really looking to expand access to peers who can help. We're looking at launching a peer training curriculum and that individuals who are already certified recovery peer advocates can take and really gain knowledge of how to work as a peer. We're looking for individuals who have lived experience and that have some time between the time that they entered into recovery and have the strength to be able to share that story. Self-care is really important. So you know what Scott talked about. It's not easy because you have to be able to balance life and balance, but the thing that peers do in sharing their lived experience or what I would like to say is lived expertise every day. It really takes a lot out of you and so you know we're looking for how do we support individuals to be able to do this and really work with even our recovery community outreach centers. We're going to be working with them to provide a hub and we're doing some needs assessments right now about incorporating peer support for those affected by gambling harm into even our recovery community out expenses.

Jerry Gretzinger:

All right, I think it's great, and Scott said too that there's really some wonderful work that's going on to continue to support this sort of thing. And, scott, let me ask you a quick question so you know. Obviously we're for the New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports. What area of New York are you from?

Scott Meyer:

From Long Island.

Jerry Gretzinger:

From Long Island okay.

Scott Meyer:

As we say, on Long Island.

Jerry Gretzinger:

On Long Island yep, and I'm just thinking after hearing this podcast, everyone who may have questions about this is going to want to talk to Scott. They're going to say can I talk to Scott? Can I get a hold of Scott? I want him to be the peer I work with. I want to point out that, again, there are peers doing the same sort of good work who have similar stories to share, and we just encourage people that if you are in a position to do the work to become a peer, please do so, and if you need to talk to one, there's lots of people like Scott out there ready to help. I think I'm correct in saying that. Right, guys.

Brenda Harris-Collins:

Yeah, and we want to develop it. Scott is a professional peer so he's trained to do this and we want to get more trained and place them in places that they can be reached more readily.

Jerry Gretzinger:

And, Brenda, how can people find more information? I mean, I'm always happy to give out our website, oasas. ny. gov, oasas. ny. gov, and you know. Once they're there, what can they do to make sure they're accessing the right information?

Brenda Harris-Collins:

So they can go to Problem Gambling. They can put OASAS and look at Problem Gambling and you'll come to that website. That website will lead you to some of the resources and publications and tools that they have. On the website there's information about accessing the Problem Gambling Resource Centers. The Problem Gambling Resource Centers are across the state and they also provide connection to therapists and to treatment OASAS actually all their addiction treatment centers provide treatment and there's other access opportunities for treatment. So there's a lot of ways that you can connect and get some services and some hope and some direction in the recovery process. This is a hidden addiction. It's not something that somebody is going to overdose over. So it is critical that we provide and really talk more about this topic so that people hear that there is help and there is a place that they can go.

Jerry Gretzinger:

That's great. Brenda, thank you so much, and Scott, thank you for sharing your story. Certainly, and if people are out there and you have questions and you're wondering, boy, am I following a path similar to Scott's, like Brenda said, go online, oasas. ny. gov, go to Problem Gambling. You'll find information. If you have questions you got to talk to somebody you can reach out to the HOPE line 877-8-HOPE-NY. There are all sorts of resources that we're trying to make available and we're continuing to try to build that up even more. So, again, thank you both so much for sitting down with us today.

Brenda Harris-Collins:

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Jerry Gretzinger:

Absolutely. We'll have to have you back sometime. Thanks everybody for checking us out on this episode of Addiction: The Next Step I'm your host, Jerry Gretzinger, and we will see you next time. Be well.

People on this episode

Head Shot

Jerry Gretzinger

Host