Isabel Byon: 0:00

The New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports, or OASAS, provides this podcast as a public service. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the agency or state. This is Addiction: The Next Step.

Jerry Gretzinger: 0:18

Hello there, Jerry Gretzinger here. Your host for Addiction: The Next Step. It's our podcast, brought to you by the New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports.

Jerry Gretzinger: 0:27

Today, our episode is going to focus on, well, 30 years 30 years of work to help those who are living with problem gambling, and you know there's been a lot that we've been talking about. We've had campaigns that we've been undertaking to help people who maybe are looking for services or supports or just for some consultation. Right, maybe they're concerned that they're gambling or mobile sports wagering too much, and that's part of what's changed. Right, we talk about mobile sports wagering it's pretty much everywhere now but we want to talk about where it's come from, where it is today and how it impacts everybody here in the great state of New York. So, joining us to have this conversation, we have Jim Maney from the New York Council on Problem Gambling. He's the executive director there. Jim, thanks for sitting down with us.

Jim Maney: 1:10

Thanks for having me.

Jerry Gretzinger: 1:11

And, of course, our own Rebecca Cooper, Bureau Director for Problem Gambling with OASAS. Thanks, Rebecca, for sitting down again.

Rebecca Cooper: 1:16

Thanks

Jerry Gretzinger: 1:17

And you're going to be becoming a regular on the podcast.

Rebecca Cooper: 1:19

Yeah, well, you know, we're going to get someone else to start talking about it.

Jerry Gretzinger: 1:22

Well as many people as we can right. Because we have a lot of conversations we can have, certainly about addiction in general, but, as I mentioned today, talking about problem gambling. So the two of you together, you have a lot of combined years of working to help people through the issues of problem gambling. So, Jim, let's start with you. I mean, how many years have you been doing this type of work?

Jim Maney: 1:45

This is my 30th in problem gambling and probably 10 years before that in substance abuse.

Jerry Gretzinger: 1:50

Wow, All right. So I mean a lot of time and you have a good knowledge, my whole life, your whole life, that's right. So, as you see, he's 40, right, you've been 30 and 10 before that. So there you go, and Rebecca.

Rebecca Cooper: 2:07

Yeah. So, 30 years problem gambling and eight years before that for substance use.

Jerry Gretzinger: 2:09

So that's why we have you guys sitting down with us, because this isn't your first rodeo, as they say. So I want to start with this. We talk about the changing landscape of what is gambling and wagering, and certainly I would think one of the top things that people would think about is mobile sports wagering. You've got it on every device. Everywhere you look, there seems to be another commercial saying hey, pick up your phone, get on your laptop, place a wager. Jim. Let me ask you to start. What was the impact of that in terms of, you know, the incidence of problem gambling or the likelihood that somebody could then be dealing with that, having that access 24-7.

Jim Maney: 2:47

I have a 22-year-old daughter and her boyfriend is a member of a frat out in Buffalo and he tells me all the stories where I get my anecdotal information from him. He has all nine accounts for all the nine licensees in New York State.

Jim Maney: 3:04

And every one of the boys has those and I think the change would be that he wouldn't have done illegal gambling, offshore gambling, he wouldn't have gone to websites. None of them would have. But they make it easy, simple and that's all. It is availability and accessibility for it. And I think the information coming from him and what they do is they they sit, they watch, they bet. They're not saying he's got a gambling problem whatsoever I don't think most people do but how simple it is and what a change that has been. If we're talking about 30 years, you know, you think about it. The people we used to see 30 years ago were middle class white men who played the horses and took about 20 years for them to develop a problem.

Jerry Gretzinger: 3:48

Yeah, yeah. And now this accessibility and the ease of just having it on your device, Rebecca, what about you?

Rebecca Cooper: 3:54

Yeah, I think you know along the same lines of what Jim said. It's just too easy and with the accessibility and availability we know, even from a prevention standpoint, you know people tend to develop more problems. So the easier it is, the more likely it is that someone's going to develop a problem as a result of it.

Jerry Gretzinger: 4:11

Yeah, and you know, I think a lot of what we're here to talk about today too is you know it's legal in New York State, right? And so a lot of what we do through OASAS is you know, whether it's substances or wagering or whatnot. If people are going to do it, we want them to be safe, we want them to take you know we call it harm reduction, right. We want you to take the steps so that it doesn't get out of control, right? Do it responsibly, do it appropriately. So let's talk on that for the time being.

Jerry Gretzinger: 4:36

So, now that there is this enhanced accessibility and I don't know how it can be more accessible than it is now but how has that changed in what we can do to help people? Because, like you said, somebody could be, you know, betting on the horses for 20 years before they develop what we consider a problem. What do we do now to try to help people with this? I can access it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, right at the tip of my fingers. How are we trying to help people avoid getting into a I don't know a level of gambling where it gets out of control?

Jim Maney: 5:09

I don't know about answering that question, but it reminds me when I first started. Went to do a training at the labor department. I knew a man that was working there. I said, Jim, come up and do a talk about problem gambling, be the first one ever. And I remember going up there and it was 12 o'clock lunchtime and nobody showed up, not one person, right? No big deal. We said let's try it again next month. So I go back again next month. And three women came in and I'm like, yes, we have three people that are going to listen to me talk about problem, yeah, but I'm doing my job, right. And so we're about to start and they three got up and said oh, we were just looking for a place to have lunch.

Jim Maney: 5:51

So you take a look at that. And you think your question was how do we do it? But you take a look at your podcast today. That's how we do it, right. We do it the same way that industry does it, and we don't take a stand, but they do it great, right? They ping you, they issue the information to you, boom, boom, boom, boom, we just have to do it the same exact way they do, because how they do it works, and I think we just have to have the resources to do it the way they do it, because I think our folks residents in New York deserve that and need that information, and then they can choose to decide where they want to go with stuff. But to answer that, I think we're on the right path of what we're doing.

Jim Maney: 6:38

We just have to do more of it as much as we can.

Jerry Gretzinger: 6:39

I was gonna say you started your response by saying well, I don't know about answering that question, but but I think you give a good answer to that question because because you're right, and that is that is why we try to do this, because we want to be where people are right. So if they're listening to podcasts, you know. If they're on social media, we know we need to be there as well. And so, Rebecca, on that end of things, I mean certainly we're doing what we can to be in those places. I don't know if you want to talk about, you know, some of those efforts and what we're kind of seeing. I know one of the things we're doing right now encourages people to actively engage with the survey and the numbers that we're seeing.

Jerry Gretzinger: 7:08

If you want to talk about some of that.

Rebecca Cooper: 7:09

Yeah, and I think you know along the same lines of what Jim was saying, is that you know, over time people are becoming more and more aware that this potentially could become a problem.

Rebecca Cooper: 7:20

And I remember, you know, 30 years ago, you know, people would come into the clinic that we were working at and they were very shameful and they were very sad and it was. There was a lot of stigma around that because nobody talked about it, nobody recognized it as a problem. It was much more socially acceptable. And so I think, as we have evolved in, you know, expanding access, you know advertising, surveys, making people more aware, even just just having conversations because that's where everything starts right and making it part of a sort of normal conversation that, hey, yeah, you know, gambling can be really fun but it can become an addiction, just like substance abuse can, and I think that allows people to feel like they're a little bit more connected and that there's no shame if they are experiencing a problem or living with someone that's having a problem.

Jerry Gretzinger: 8:14

And you know, and I, as you're talking about that, I was thinking too. You talked about surveys, and one of the major pushes that we have right now is we're encouraging people to take a survey to see what level they're at in terms of gambling. Is it, is it just my you know, for mild entertainment, or is it rising to a more of a concerning level? And I feel, from the results we're seeing, that people are interested to know. Okay, yeah, where do I land? So enough people are participating often enough where they have that question where am I at? And I think one of the biggest things we're seeing is the completion rate of the survey.

Rebecca Cooper: 8:50

And I think that what that tells us is that people want to know, they want that balanced approach.

Rebecca Cooper: 8:55

They want, you know, they want to understand how the behaviors that they're exhibiting with their gambling like, how do they keep it sort of in the safe lane, how do they prevent it from becoming a problem? What does that look like? And so, by giving them, you know, what we would call normative feedback, they take a quick survey, you know, talk about what their specific gambling behaviors are, and then they get a very quick normative feedback on where they are sort of on the spectrum, and then we provide additional information for them to get additional support. But we want people to understand, and I think one of the other distinct differences, you know, with a gambling addiction, then substance use, that we see is there's not always a lot of warning signs. So, you know, that also combats some of the identification issues as well. And so by creating opportunities for people to see where they are, I think that really opens up the opportunities for people to either, you know, either reduce their gambling or prevent it from getting a problem.

Jerry Gretzinger: 9:55

You just talked about warning signs too, and, Jim, I'm going to jump back to you now. You talked about 30 years in problem gambling and 10 years before that in addiction. When we think about warning signs that people could look for, we often hear that when it comes to gambling they can be really difficult to see Because it's not much of an outward I don't know display of symptoms always. But has that changed at all over the past 30 years? Because, as you said, people used to go to the track right. So if somebody was at the track every day, maybe you'd start to wonder. Now, with people on their phones, it's hard to know what can people look for or what could serve as a sign.

Jim Maney: 10:33

Jerry, I've lived in this area my whole life and went to the track the first time in 1973 to see Secretariat run. I didn't know who Secretariat was, but I was at that race. I've never met anybody leaving the Saratoga race track that has never said they've lost money, right, They've always broke even because you could never tell if they won or not, or lost.

Jim Maney: 10:54

I think when you talk about these things it reminds me of you know, back in the day, since we're going back 30 years, what we wanted to do with lottery tickets. That was a major thing back then. It was like why can't we make lottery tickets like prescription drugs? You ever see those prescription drugs and all of a sudden they do a commercial and then for the last 15 seconds they talk about the warning signs and what's going to happen heart attacks, death, this and that. And I remember my daughter was saying, Dad, why would anybody ever take this medication if they were going to die? It doesn't make sense.

Jim Maney: 11:26

So we always wanted the same thing on lottery tickets. All right, buy a lottery ticket, but in case there may be divorce, suicide, lose your house, lose your family, lose all these type of things. And we think the same thing now for mobile sports betting. We see every ad in the world right, put five dollars up, we'll give you 150. And at the beginning, caesars was given three thousand dollars away in money. You know simple bets and I always imagine if we could do that, come to treatment and we'll give you $150. Come to treatment, we'll give you $3,000. Our places, our clinics, would be full if we could do it the same exact way.

Jim Maney: 12:05

So I think Rebecca is perfectly right.

Jim Maney: 12:08

Raising the awareness is the only thing we have to do, because if we do it, by all these things that we're talking about, we have a really good chance, because it will make the conversation start and the majority of people understand that it can be an addiction, can be problematic and, as we know, this addiction we need each and every one of us to work on this. This is not, you know, in the old days, you got DWI and then you had to get treatment. We don't have anything for that, for gambling whatsoever, right, in fact, this is the hardest one because you're winning gambling, right, you could be down $10,000, right, and in the midst of panic, in the midst of everything, and you hit Guess what, you have no problems anymore. That's the big difference, and I think you're raising the awareness of problem gambling is the number one thing we can do and that's why you're doing these things and all the information that OASAS is doing is the best thing possible.

Jerry Gretzinger: 13:05

Well, we definitely appreciate hearing that. We feel we're doing the right thing and we just hope the message is getting to enough people, Jim. So I'm getting the sense. You have a lot of good stories and you're a very good storyteller, and we often find that one of the best things you can do to reach people is to share a story about someone who's lived this experience right, who went through it. And I'm assuming in your 30 years of doing the work you do now, you've probably encountered a couple of people who had a story that's probably stuck with you and I just wasn't sure if you want to take a minute or can take a minute to tell us a story about someone who realized okay, this is getting out of my control at this point. I don't know if I can turn this around, but I'm going to try and maybe did or didn't, but a story that you could share.

Jim Maney: 13:58

That, might, you know, resonate with people at home. There's a thousand of them, I'm sure there are, and you know every story starts to say the same Shame, guilt and loss of money. Right, and the hardest thing is I think one of the first ones, and Rebecca and I were both in on this case, one of the first ones ever a woman came in, a professional woman, and she was going to buy a new car and the salesperson said you know your credit card information and she put her one credit card down and the man came back and laughed at her. He said you have to put all 13 of yours down. She says I beg your pardon, I only have one credit card.

Jim Maney: 14:34

Well, it turned out her husband took out 12 credit cards in her name and, like a good gambler, got the credit card information sent to his post office box and, like a good gambler, he paid off the minimum with the first credit to pay the second to pay a certain credit for it. And they came into treatment and she called the helpline and got to us and I remember on sunday getting a call and saying come in monday morning bright and early and bring your husband. And so they came in monday morning and I said when do you get paid? And he said Wednesday. And I said what do you do with the money? And he looked right at her and said sweetie, if you just let me gamble one more time, I can get all this money back. So the first thing he realized that he was a pathological gambler. He was right in the midst of it, still right, and I remember that case vividly and we weren't Rebecca and I both worked on that case individually and then in couples, and I will say that that's probably the first success that I had and we had together as a couple.

Jim Maney: 15:44

And you thought, okay. I remember she saying what are my options? Well, you can divorce them, you can arrest them right, or you can stay with them. And she's like those aren't the greatest options, are they right? And I remember I think they was like either 70 something $80,000, which was a ton of money back then, and I think we even did the finances. If he worked the second job right Back then, you were probably getting $6 an hour at a second job at Walmart or something. It was going to take him 34 years to pay this off. And as we went through treatment the beginning of the month, every month with her was very tough because the bills were due and she was paying for them and so we had we, I mean we had to do suicide allergy, homicide allergy with these situations because it was and they were. They were very, very, very, very hard and the last I know, success. So to me that was the first and Rebecca can tell more about it.

Rebecca Cooper: 16:52

Yeah, I mean I think I'll go to another story.

Rebecca Cooper: 16:56

Because, Jim gave a great overview of that. But one of the things that always stuck with me is it was pretty early on when we were at the Center for Problem Gambling and I remember Jim always had to walk by my office to get to his and he had a new intake and he went and got him in the waiting room and I hear him chit-chatting away in the hallway and it's a younger guy and Jim does a session and he comes out and he comes in my office and he's like I just got to tell you about this and I'm like this intake, I just did. And I'm like this intake, I just did. I'm like, oh well, what's going on? He's like I sat down and the guy, the kid, was like, oh, do you remember me? And Jim's like, no, not really.

Rebecca Cooper: 17:35

He's like well, you were my counselor when I worked at was hospitality house hope house you were my counselor when I worked at hope house five years ago and I had a gambling problem back then and it got worse. So are you gonna? And you never asked me about my gambling when I was in substance use treatment. So are you going to help me now? And I remember we both sat there like oh my gosh. And that always has stuck with me and as services have evolved and I never forgot that story and so I think, as wherever you go and you know, when I came to OASAS 20 years ago, it's like that is also so important is that co-occurring and then integrating asking those questions right, because we know people that have a substance use disorder at higher risk and vice versa, and just asking those questions and we do people a disservice when we weren't asking those questions in substance use treatment and now our outpatient providers have to screen for it.

Rebecca Cooper: 18:36

And those kinds of things make all the difference in the world when we talk about harm reduction and preventative across the board. So that's one of my earlier stories with us working together and it was really we both were like dumbfounded, like oh my gosh, we've been in substance use treatment. We never ask these questions.

Jim Maney: 18:56

I can still feel the kick in the gut right now as Rebecca tells that story. It was horrible. It was horrible. Can you help me now? I remember the conversation going forward and he was clean and sober from alcohol and drugs, but he did two bits in prison as a result of his gambling and so it was. I can feel that today. So thanks a lot Rebecca.

Rebecca Cooper: 19:23

I remember not a lot of things rattled Jim Maney, but that did, and we both sat there like, oh my goodness.

Jerry Gretzinger: 19:31

You mentioned that, though, that has become such a significant focus right the co-occurring and you know you talk about just things that change, not just you know what, what's encouraging people to go out there and participate in gambling, but also the way you screen for it when you screen for it. So these are all positive changes that are happening on that end of things. And, Rebecca, I've heard you talk about co-occurring, but I hadn't heard that story, but so I can. You know, it kind of gives you a little background as to why that's so important to you and why it's important anyway.

Rebecca Cooper: 19:58

Right.

Jerry Gretzinger: 19:58

Because you never know.

Rebecca Cooper: 19:59

You don't ever know.

Jim Maney: 20:01

And yet we did some really good work back then. So it's interesting thinking back. I mean Rebecca formed the first significant other group in the country for significant other problem gamblers and I mean that was unbelievable work that we identified that and we took a look at that and that grew. I remember that grew tremendously. Monday nights.

Jim Maney: 20:23

Yeah, what work we did in that. So there's a lot of stories, a lot of great stories, a lot of great successes. You know, I think the greatest thing is when you learn. You have to learn in the midst of the trenches and that's when we learn the most. You know, we know we learn some stuff from books and things that. But you learn from the client, you learn from your mistakes, you learn from what you did not do and you're going to do it better next time. And you know, I think if, if we take a look at 30 years, the both of us have grown tremendously because we've listened and we've adapted and we had the basic thing to care about, the people that we were supposed to care about.

Jerry Gretzinger: 20:59

Yeah, yeah, and you know I always talk about the other folks we've interviewed who have come on and shared their personal stories, their lived experience with gambling and certainly treatment and now living in recovery from it. And it's, it is, it's, it's a. It can be a difficult journey, but everybody that we've heard from has said they're so happy that they had someone who helped them along the way, because they got them to where they are now.

Rebecca Cooper: 21:21

And I, you know, I really it's a privilege. I mean, if you think back, and, as you know, we're just sort of reflecting being able to be a part of that and and and creating safe spaces for people and listening and caring and, you know, being there to sort of walk with them, it's definitely, it's been a privileged career.

Jim Maney: 21:38

Oh, we're lucky to meet more world to care about people, because caring about people makes one happier, makes one more satisfied. And so we're very lucky to do the work we've been chosen to do.

Jerry Gretzinger: 21:50

Listen, let me ask you both, as we kind of get ready to close here. I think sometimes people think that help, services, supports are there for people who are at a point where I have no other choice I've already gotten myself in so deep I don't know what else to do but I know a lot of what we want to try to do also is to help people prevent getting to that level. Giving them we talked about in another recent podcast episode the guide rails right. How can I do this safely? How can I keep myself from getting into a point where I don't know how to get out of it? So what would you say to folks out there who are listening, who may be wondering well, yeah, maybe I'm doing this more than I was, but I'm okay for now, I think. What would you say to them?

Jim Maney: 22:35

I think we have to make it the same way. If you have a rash on your arm, you're not worried about calling the doctor or calling anybody or taking a look at or showing it to your mother or your wife Nothing, right? Look at this new rash I have. What do you think about it? But I think that has to be the same conversation that we have to be able to have the conversation about gambling, problem gambling, the whole level of it.

Jim Maney: 23:02

But it has to be decided and we can't let the world decide it for us, right? We can't let Kevin Hart and LeBron James decide what our gambling is for us, right? We have to have the voice. Our voice has to be heard as much as anybody else's voice out there. So for the person that's hearing, they hear the voice, they hear the OASAS voice, they hear the New York Council Problem Gambling. They have the Liberty Experian voice at the same time, so they can have the choice. All the information. They're not getting all the information right now. It's still, I would say more one-sided on the message that gambling is harmless. How can you not be? Everybody's doing this, and if you're not, there's something wrong with you as compared to questioning and thinking.

Jerry Gretzinger: 23:51

Right.

Rebecca Cooper: 23:52

Yeah, I mean, I think what what I would say is, you know, very simple, that you're not alone. I mean, there's many people that have traveled this journey. There's people that are asking the same questions that they are, and there's no shame in reaching out, um, you know, and asking for help, whatever that, wherever that may be, and that there are a lot of supports out there in New York State that never were there, that weren't there 15 years ago or 30 years ago. You know we've expanded that we have access to peers now. You know there's lots of other treatment services available. We just brought in GAMFIM for financial things, so there's a lot of options for people and all they have to do is ask.

Jerry Gretzinger: 24:35

Yeah, just get the conversation started. And, as we talked to you about, there's so many other types of new services and you talk about the peer access and then we talk about all the changes that there are and where the availability of gambling and wagering is. There's so many new things out there. I mean, we don't expect people to be able to understand or know how all of that operates and certainly what to do if it's gotten a little bit out of control. So, reach out to us, get the conversation started, and that's all you got to do is start talking and somebody else will talk back with you. So, hey, listen, Jim and Rebecca. Thanks for sitting down with us. Again, we really appreciate it and we'll keep getting the information out there, Jim, like you said.

Jim Maney: 25:15

Thank you.

Jerry Gretzinger: 25:16

Thank you very much, all right. So if you want to have that conversation, get it started.

Jerry Gretzinger: 25:20

I'll tell you a couple different ways you can do it. You can go to our website, oasas. ny. gov. Once you're on there, you can navigate right to the problem gambling pages and you can get some specific information. You could also find a link to Gamfin on there that Rebecca was talking about. They can give you some consultation, assistance with that, to see where you're at. You could also take a survey to find out what level of gambling you're at right now Hopefully harmless, but if not, you can find out there as well. And then, obviously, the real easy way to get a hold of someone to talk to you go to our HOPE line 877-8-HOPE-NY, 877-8-HOPE-NY. Thanks for checking out this episode of Addiction: The Next Step I'm your host, Jerry Gretzinger. Until we see you again next time, be well.