Isabel Byon: 0:00

The New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports, or OASAS, provides this podcast as a public service. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the agency or state. This is Addiction: The Next Step.

Jerry Gretzinger: 0:22

Hey everybody, Jerry Gretzinger, your host for Addiction: The Next Step, the podcast brought to you by the New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports, and I want to thank you for hanging out with us a little bit today, because this episode we're talking about something timely September well, it's a lot of months, right, we recognize certain things for certain months. September's a lot of things, but it's also Responsible Gaming Education Month, and that's what we're going to talk about in this podcast episode. And we've got a couple of folks here who's going to talk to us about why it's important, how we kind of you know, tribute, you know, to Responsible Gaming this month, and we've got Rob Williams. He's the Executive Director for the New York Gaming Commission and our Commissioner Dr. Chinazo Cunningham. Thanks for both, for sitting down with us today.

Jerry Gretzinger: 1:04

Glad to be here Likewise, so all right. So let's start first of all. So, Responsible Gaming Education Month. You know it's also, you know, Recovery Month. As I said, a lot of things happen in the month of September, but this is one that we want to talk about. We've been doing a lot at the agency, you know, to talk about responsible gaming and to make sure people understand how to be gaming responsibly. Certainly, e njoy it, but do it responsibly. What is it about this month? What are we trying to make sure people understand this month? And, Rob, let me talk with you first about that. On the Gaming Commission's end of things, what do you hope people get from this month and the messages we're putting out?

Rob Williams: 1:40

The main element for us is to raise awareness of problem gambling and raise awareness of the different items that people who are afflicted by problem gambling have the opportunity to avail themselves. So, from our perspective, it's really trying to ensure that there's a visibility of the issue and a discussion of the issue with individuals who are interested in hearing.

Jerry Gretzinger: 2:03

And you know, I know I should also mention too. There's the RPP, the Responsible Play Partnership, and that's something that incorporates, you know, those of us here. There's a group of agencies that work on this and, Rob, I think you were around when that started. Was that back in 2013?

Rob Williams: 2:17

Yes, I was around. We founded it in large measure. The Gaming Commission was established in February of 2013, and we were an amalgamation of the New York State Lottery and the Racing and Wagering Board, so we had a new administration that came in at that point and I was named the executive director and one of the first things that we did was talk about what our approaches are to our own industries, because we were divided at that point and I was a little surprised that we had no formal either at the Racing and Wagering Board or the Division of the Lottery had no formal relationship with the Office of. You were a little bit named differently at that point. Yes, I was Trip over that, but OASAS and the New York Council on Problem Gambling.

Rob Williams: 3:04

But OASAS and the New York Council on Problem Gambling. I had had some interactions with the New York Council on Problem Gambling back in 1996 when I worked on a report of the task force on casino gambling and we delayed the issuance of our report to review the first 10-year replication study that Rachel Volberg conducted relative to the prevalence of problem gambling. So I had a little bit of an introduction into that and then I moved out into other different elements of gambling policy. But when I came back I was literally stunned that we had no formal relationship, not even an informal relationship. So that's the reason why we did it and we you know my director of communications at the time, Lee Park, contacted individuals over at the New York Council on Problem Gambling and over here at OASAS and said I think we need to kind of get together and that ultimately led to a formal establishment of what we call the Responsible Play Partnership, the RPP.

Jerry Gretzinger: 4:12

And I know, obviously, since then, there's been a lot of work that's been done to be able to promote responsible gaming and, with the RPP, Chinazo, let me ask you so what are some of the things that have been happening in the recent years and I know we've been making a real effort, you know, towards responsible gaming, that message? What are some of the things, like the top things that we've been putting out there that seem to be, you know, you know, make, making a difference?

Chinazo Cunningham: 4:34

Yeah, well, I first want to say you know of New Yorkers who gamble most people gamble responsibly, right, and so I think it's really about making sure that we reduce the risks of harm, so really take that's taking a harm reduction approach, and that we're using our data to help, you know, figure out what that approach should look like. And so I think it's really important right in partnering with the Gaming Commission in order to do this, and so some of the partnership includes sharing of data and figuring out, you know, ways to constantly improve to make sure that people know that resources exist if they do have problems or you know they think they may have problems and to to have those resources easily available. So you know, really kind of looking at what's available, looking at the messaging, looking at the websites, looking at, you know, the public service announcements and working together to you know to really make sure that New Yorkers know that resources are available and can access them.

Jerry Gretzinger: 5:42

And so I know we've also been moving towards things. I know that's something I hear a lot about and people may not understand voluntary self-exclusion. That's been a part of this right.

Chinazo Cunningham: 5:50

Absolutely. And so that's, you know, a process where people can exclude themselves from gaming. So, going to casinos and we want to make sure that we understand what's happening in that area, so how many people are doing that, what their characteristics are like, and part of that is so that we can understand who may be having problems and then better target those individuals so that they that you know they can access services. So I think, again, working with the gaming commission here to make it easier, um to to have voluntary self-exclusion and um, you know. So, for example, one of the things that we've done is, during that process, in our partnership, together added the possibility for people to say they want to receive a phone call from our helpline, the hope line, you know, so that somebody can reach out to them and follow up to see if they need services, to do a warm handoff to treatment. So that's one example of the kind of way in which we partner.

Jerry Gretzinger: 6:52

And another example as to how things continue to evolve, because, as you said, that's a new addition that people can take advantage of.

Chinazo Cunningham: 6:57

Yes, right, so that's just in the last year.

Rob Williams: 7:00

Well, last couple of years. It's actually an interesting thing. It's something that we worked on with your staff before it became something that was obligated under the law. So this is something where it developed out of the Responsible Play Partnership as well. When we're talking about things that we can do, one of the things that we thought was to implement a self-exclusion program. This is before the statutes actually caught up and required us to do it.

Rob Williams: 7:26

What Dr Cunningham is talking about is only in the last year has there been an obligation to utilize some of the data. So there's been a formalization of the process. But we rolled out a you know, collectively we've rolled out a self-exclusion program several years ago and the legislature finally got around and said, hey, that is a good idea. Why don't we put some frameworks around it and also utilize some of the materials that you guys are receiving? Because maybe that information that we're receiving on individuals who are self-excluding can be used by professionals. We are not professionals in problem gambling at all. We are simply there to assist those like the people here at OASAS, to access some of that information, to make sense of that information and then to utilize that information to make policy choices and determinations in the future.

Jerry Gretzinger: 8:16

When you talk about the people who like, who play different roles in this process. I know within the past year there was a press event where we announced training I think too right for casino staff, so they can also partner in this effort.

Chinazo Cunningham: 8:29

Absolutely, and I think you know that's a great example again of the kind of partnership is to make sure that staff who work in casinos you know, understand and you know can identify people who may be at risk of having problems right, could talk to them, can offer them again resources, point them in the direction, point them to the hope line or to the website, and so you know again, these are just opportunities to make sure that you know people, if they, you know, are developing problems or worried about it, that they know that they can get the resources that are available.

Rob Williams: 9:04

And so that was one of the major things with the Responsible Play Partnership is trying to build upon those relationships. As I said, we're not professionals in problem gambling by any means, but we do know them. What I do have is an ability to attract my licensees, because if I ask my licensees to show up at something that I appear to in their facility, they will. So what we can do then is build upon that relationship of getting them to the table and having that discussion with the professionals the New York Council on Problem Gambling and OASAS, as professionals that work in problem gambling, open that door and allow for the understanding of what the benefits are for this type of training and exposure and how that helps the facility as well as help the individuals who are afflicted with problem gambling issues.

Jerry Gretzinger: 9:49

You know and I have asked this question too you know I mentioned the word evolve before right and the evolution of this partnership. But then there's also been the evolution of gaming in New York State and really across the world with mobile sports wagering. People can do it from their phones. You know how does that impact y ou know these efforts. Do we look at this and say, okay, so what else can we do to help, kind of, you know, build upon what we're offering? You know the connections we have with people to bring them in to see who may need some assistance and get this sort of information, knowing that they don't necessarily need to be in a facility.

Chinazo Cunningham: 10:23

Well, I mean, I think one again example of a partnership is you know we talked about the voluntary self-exclusion process right, and sharing data and getting a better understanding of that. Similarly, with the accounts that people have for the mobile sports wagering, you know we've also again worked on looking at those data and sharing those data again to understand what's happening in this area, so that you know a better understanding again will allow us to then better prepare for people if or when they have problems. And so again, that partnership with the Gaming Commission and OASAS is there for those mobile sports wagering accounts and those data.

Rob Williams: 11:03

That's one of the wonderful things about mobile sports gambling.

Rob Williams: 11:06

It's kind of a weird thing to say a wonderful thing, but mobile sports gambling, in order for it to be conducted, has to be through an account. So every single wager, every single location, every single piece of time where the individual was how long they spent on that application, what did they wager, what did they return, what did they then re-wager all of that data is captured, so that data exists. The bigger question is, what do we do with that data, and that's something that we're working through right now in trying to determine what is accessible, what can perhaps be because a lot of the operators have concerns with people looking under the tent flap to see how that sausage is made and how it's done, but maybe anonymizing the data and allowing the professionals who have statistical research capabilities of getting a better understanding and maybe someday finding certain trigger elements or behavioral patterns that you see that can identify an individual as having potential problem gambling. So an intervention that could occur before it becomes a problem.

Chinazo Cunningham: 12:16

Absolutely, and you know examples of you know how we could use data like that are just even understanding patterns, right? So is it young men between certain ages that are really, you know, gambling more, is it at certain times? Is it, you know, from 10 pm to 2 am? Should we then have staff available during those times, right? Those are the kinds of things that we're interested in, and we can just better target our resources and our efforts using a data-driven approach, and so that's the kind of thing that we're thinking about to just, you know, have a better understanding and then a more refined approach.

Jerry Gretzinger: 12:52

I'm glad you both are explaining how you know the data is, you know, called together and then it's gone through to figure out how we can utilize it, because I think so many times we hear from people, certainly, who say, well, this is an issue and we want an answer right now and what are you going to do about it? And I think this is a good explanation of, well, you know what? Mobile sports wagering this is still kind of like the new kid on the block here and we need to learn about it, how people are utilizing it. And, like you say, data driven. Let's use the data to figure out what we can do to help.

Chinazo Cunningham: 13:19

Absolutely. And I think, Jerry, what people I think a lot of people don't understand, and I actually didn't understand this before becoming the commissioner, even though I'm, you know, spent my entire career as an addiction you know physician. So there's a there's little data when it comes to gaming, and part of the reason why is because at the federal level there's very little support, so we really don't fund anything that really looks into addiction to gambling or problems with gambling at the federal level. So the National Institute of Health funds addiction related to drugs, addiction related to alcohol, but not gambling, and so there's a lot that we don't know, even though, as you said, you know, a lot of the opportunities for gambling have really dramatically increased in the country. So we have a lot of catching up to do in terms of the science around gambling, and so that's just one of the things that you know a lot of times from the federal government. We do have the science and the support to be able to do that, but not really with gambling.

Jerry Gretzinger: 14:29

So I'm going to jump into it. Another question here that we sometimes get. You know, we'll put out campaign materials on social media or whatever it may be, and very often about responsible gaming, and we get some people who look at us and say, or they'll make their comments, and they'll say something like, oh, look at New York State talking out of both sides of its mouth, they're pushing the gambling, they're pushing the mobile sports wagering. And then here they come saying, oh, but be responsible. So I just want to address those folks for a moment and say you know what I mean. So how do we explain to them? Yeah, we need to be doing both.

Rob Williams: 15:01

Yeah, absolutely, we have to do both. I mean, we have an obligation to be responsible in our practices as well. Gaming Commission is very unique in that regard in that we operate the New York Lottery. So not only am I a regulator of gambling, I'm actually an operator of gambling as well, so the responsibility is a two-edged sword. Just as you pointed out that I'm trying to raise money from individuals on the lottery side for public education, but I'm also concerned in the manner that I do it. What's the approach that I do? How is my advertising? Who am I targeting and utilizing those data points? And trying to be responsible in what we do.

Rob Williams: 15:49

One of the things that was published a couple of years ago now I think two years ago was an article in the Lancet, that indicated that the industry itself purposely does not identify negative behaviors they aim towards. They look at the money we're raising, look at the jobs that we have, look at the good things that come out of that gambling spend. We're cognizant of that. What we're trying to do is bring a little bit of a balance. Yes, there are good things that occur from some of the gambling revenues, but we want to be careful as to whose expense those are coming from and if we can identify individuals and intervene before it becomes a problem. I think we have a responsibility to do that, even if nobody is directing us by law to do that.

Chinazo Cunningham: 16:34

And you know, I think, when we think about this, you know, gambling is not unique. We know that alcohol is available legally in this country, so is cannabis now in New York, and we know that people can have problems from those things, but they're legal. And so our approach is very similar, which is a harm reduction approach, right, and so we're not going to make them illegal, but we want to reduce the risk of harms, and most people are able to. Again, the people who do gamble, most people are able to gamble without having harms, and so our focus is really on reducing and preventing those harms from occurring and then, if they do occur, making sure that people have the resources necessary to address them. And so, again, similar to alcohol, similar to tobacco, similar to cannabis so not unique to gambling.

Rob Williams: 17:34

To pick up a little bit on what Dr Cunningham had said. I think it's an educational element for us to provide the understanding of individuals what gambling is, what it can do, what it can't do, and make people a little bit greater aware of what the potential issues can be if you do reach a particular point that moves towards problem gambling.

Jerry Gretzinger: 17:57

It's the same thing that we do with alcohol, you know. I just want to put out a little plug there for the campaign that we've been having going recently, which is the Take a Pause campaign and encourage people. You know, sometimes I'm sure people may be wondering all right.

Jerry Gretzinger: 18:06

Well, maybe I am gaming more than I should. Maybe. It is a lot of control. So we actually part of the campaign was we have a very short survey on our website that you can go to and you can take a survey and it'll tell you, you know, in pretty layman's terms, if it's something you should be concerned about or if you're doing okay, and then you know. From that point you can be connected to services. And, Chinazo, let me just ask you quickly. I mean, we have we services, we have treatment centers that focus strictly on problem gambling.

Chinazo Cunningham: 18:39

Absolutely, and so we have a whole continuum of services.

Chinazo Cunningham: 18:43

So we do prevention activities, treatment, harm reduction and recovery, and so for treatment we have both a network of clinics, and so there's 49 clinics that have received specialized training in order to provide treatment for gambling, and then we also have a network of about 100 private practitioners who in their offices also provide treatment for problem gambling In addition.

Chinazo Cunningham: 19:10

So those are sort of outpatient, you know, treatment we also have inpatient, and so where people can stay, you know, in our addiction treatment centers, for example, if people have very severe problems with gambling can actually stay for, you know, 28 days or longer to really address their gambling problem. So that's the treatment part. But again we have prevention treatment, harm reduction and recovery services. And so we're also working on, you know, training our workforce better as well and so getting more and more of our account. Our licensed counselors to you know, get the addiction training around gambling specifically so they can have that sort of designation and then be able to offer more specialized treatment. So there's a lot of work that we're doing to get our system, to expand in our OASAS system and to have a better trained workforce as well, to be able to address any problems with gambling.

Jerry Gretzinger: 20:11

So I think we've done a pretty good job kicking off Responsible Gaming Education Month. So thank you both for sitting down and chatting with us today. I think this has been great. Hopefully it's been informative for the folks who are out there listening and if anybody wants more information, you know where to go oasas. ny. gov, oasas. ny. gov and, as we mentioned a couple times, the HOPE line 877-8-HOPE-NY. And, by the way, when you go to that website, look for that, take a Pause survey. It's interesting to do and the results you get, you know, could be eye-opening. And, of course, services are always listed on that website as well. Thanks for joining us, Chinazo, Rob, thanks for sitting down with us for this episode. Until we see you again next time, you will.