Isabel Byon 0:00

The New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports , or OASAS , provides this podcast as a public service . Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the agency or state . This is Addiction: The Next Step .

Introducing Problem Gambling Discussion

Jerry Gretzinger 0:19

Hey everybody , Jerry Gretzinger , your host for Addiction: The Next Step , thanks for checking out this episode of the podcast . And today the topic that we're getting into is problem gambling . You know we've done several episodes where we discuss problem gambling and a lot of it talks about how the landscape has changed . You know , not just in New York State , obviously , but around the world , because it used to be , if you wanted to participate in some form of gambling , maybe you'd go take a day at the races , you'd go to a casino . Now , if you have your phone , it's at your fingertips 24 hours a day , seven days a week . But what we're going to do today is we're going to talk to a couple of men who are working in problem gambling , trying to help folks who are living with that in their lives , who have also lived with it in their own lives . So , guys , I want to introduce you and start by thanking you both for being here to share your stories .

Jerry Gretzinger 1:05

We've got Louis Laboy . He's with the Acacia Network , the Bronx Senior Administrator for OASAS Residential Services . Thank you for sitting down with us today . Thank you for having us , Jerry . We've also got Albert Aponte . He is the Peer Supervisor Samaritan Daytop at the Richard Pruss Wellness Center in the Bronx . Thank you , sir . Thank you for inviting us . So we chatted briefly before we started rolling here today and we said how , very often , what is most compelling and really most helpful is for people who may be experiencing some concerns about problem gambling in their lives to hear the stories of others , and I know , as I said , both of you have your own stories to tell . So that's why I want to start . I want to start by me sitting back and hearing what you have to tell us about your experience with this in your life . So why don't you go ahead and start for us ?

Luis Laboy 1:52

So Luis Loboy from Acacia

Luis's Journey with Gambling Addiction

Luis Laboy 1:54

Network . So I can tell you , Jerry , that gambling started out early on in my life where it was a cultural activity accepted with dominoes , dice, cards , bingo . It became problematic early on as a teenager playing three-card , monty , you know , and getting chased by the police , and it elevated into . There was a time where I was incarcerated when I was gambling for , uh , sugar cigarettes wow , yeah yeah , we played cards , so it becomes problematic .

Luis Laboy 2:34

Uh , my aunt played every day , at least $200 a day all her life and that was interesting so we thought it was normal

Jerry Gretzinger 2:41

So you kind of brought up with it really, right ?

Luis Laboy 2:43

So we thought it was fine .

Jerry Gretzinger 2:46

And when you said early on like how old were you ?

Luis Laboy 2:48

Oh , we started gambling . Probably about eight years old .

Jerry Gretzinger 2:51

And you said it was sort of a cultural thing , it was just accepted .

Luis Laboy 2:54

It was just accepted and we gambled for toys , desserts , cookies .

Jerry Gretzinger 2:59

And I'm sure when you're doing that at that age , a lot of people look at it and think it seems pretty innocent .

Luis Laboy 3:06

Normal

Jerry Gretzinger 3:06

Yeah

Luis Laboy 3:07

And it's okay .

Jerry Gretzinger 3:09

So how did it advance , then , from being something where you were , like you know , playing cards for cookies or candy or sugar or whatever it may be , to where it became problematic , where you said whoa , something's got to give here .

Luis Laboy 3:20

Yeah , I thought it was a job at one point , ended up getting incarcerated but it did get to the point where you lose everything . I had co-occurring disorders where I started using substances early on as well , so that elevated to a tolerance and to a point where I became suicidal .

Jerry Gretzinger 3:38

Really ?

Luis Laboy 3:39

At the end .

Luis Laboy 3:39

Yeah .

Jerry Gretzinger 3:40

And so , just to give people a sense , what was the age range you were in at that point ?

Luis Laboy 3:45

I was about 38 years old .

Jerry Gretzinger 3:46

Okay .

Jerry Gretzinger 3:47

So you had started so early on with the very simple , seemingly innocent type of gambling and at 38 , it had grown to such a point where you said you had suicidal thoughts .

Luis Laboy 3:57

Jails institutions .

Jerry Gretzinger 3:59

What was it that led to the incarceration , like I know ?

Jerry Gretzinger 4:02

just again to kind of explain for people how significant this got

Luis Laboy 4:06

Yeah , seeking income , seeking money to play with or to use drugs to support the habit .

Jerry Gretzinger 4:13

So at that point you were saying you had some co-occurring issues going on . So you had the substance , you had the gambling and you were looking for money to be able to afford both .

Luis Laboy 4:22

Right . That became more important than anything else in my life , More important than food , family, sex . Most important . My brain was hijacked .

Jerry Gretzinger 4:31

Yeah , that's a good way to put it . Yeah , because some people are just they're hardwired for that to be potentially more of an issue than others .

Luis Laboy 4:42

Definitely yeah . Susceptibility , inheritance , things like that , the environment being exposed to it .

Jerry Gretzinger 4:50

What was the point when you decided no more , I need to work on something here .

Luis Laboy 4:57

Incarceration , solitary confinement . I started looking at myself , see what was going on . I got lucky and got recruited into Phoenix House . There was a Phoenix House in 1997 in the Department of Corrections , and they recruited me for treatment and that helped me a great deal . It helped me identify my triggers , the consequences of continued drug use , and it implanted hope that there was a possibility that I could change at some time , and now I pass it forward to other people .

Jerry Gretzinger 5:30

Was there a point and I imagine there is for everyone when they're at that bridge , if you will , when they say , okay , I've got to make a decision here . Did you look at it and say , okay , I've got an issue with gambling , I've got an issue with substances . Did you feel like I don't know if I can be helped , what can be done to get me across that bridge ?

Luis Laboy 5:50

Very interesting . I didn't know there was help at the time , but I did find out there was Gamblers Anonymous , Narcotics Anonymous and I started to reach out and I learned all this through treatment Phoenix House at the time and I just took the initiative to try and figure out how can I stay home , stay out of trouble , get married , go on vacations , have money in my pocket . But first of all I had to learn how to control my desire to gamble and use drugs .

Jerry Gretzinger 6:23

So , and I want us to be able to talk . You mentioned about not being aware that there were such services and supports available . You learned about that . I do want us to talk about that , and I think we'll get into that in just a moment because first I want to switch over to Albert and I want you to take us through your journey that helped get you to that point where we're about to start talking about supports and services and how we , how we moved towards , you know , recovering from all of that

Albert's Story of Cultural Gambling

Jerry Gretzinger 6:45

. But so where did you find yourself ? You know getting into gambling and that becoming a problem in your life .

Albert Aponte 6:49

Well , my story is more or less like Louis' . You know , I grew up in a family where gambling was accepted . Um , they used to sit down at the table on a Friday after work and then get up until Monday morning to go back to work . So me , as a kid six , seven years old they used to put chairs together so I could lay down on the chair and sleep . That's how much they went to the gambling . So to me , seeing this , it was normal . So my mother used to scold me and punish me because she used to catch me outside pitching pennies and , from there , playing dice . And as I kept growing , it kept progressing , but I didn't see it . I didn't think I had a problem because it was normal to me .

Albert Aponte 7:47

And in my culture , in Hispanic culture , we do a lot of gambling . You know which is acceptable , like cockfights , right the boxing . You know baseball games , World Series . You know all this . We used to gamble and it was normal . You know , I saw it . You know we do it . My family does it . Why can't I ? You know . However , yeah , like Louis , you know I , I got into selling drugs so I could make money . So now I'm playing scratch-off tickets , so my profits was going in me using drugs and playing the scratch-off and playing the numbers , the illegal numbers , what we call bolida . So during again , like Louis , I also went to Phoenix House and I give them credit for the information that they gave . They were providing us about addiction , and still I didn't see gambling as a problem . So , but when I wanted to buy something and it was something that was needed in the house , but I chose to gamble my money to try to make more money to do so , then I noticed I got a problem .

Jerry Gretzinger 9:18

So that was your point where you said wait a minute , I'm choosing gambling over necessities .

Albert Aponte 9:24

Yes , correct . That's when I realized that something's got to give . My wife told me you're spending our money . I said , yeah , I'm trying to make more money without taking the risk of getting arrested because I don't want to sell drugs , no more . But that didn't work out . I just kept finding myself in a hole and digging the hole deeper and deeper .

Jerry Gretzinger 9:50

Which is often where people find themselves . The hole keeps getting deeper and deeper . I want to point out too , we've just discussed your lived experience with gambling and , obviously , substance use . That became a part of that as well , and we're now going to discuss how you kind of put things together to walk away from that part of your life and to be in recovery from it all . But also , I just want to point out , you both work now

Finding Support and Recovery Paths

Jerry Gretzinger 10:14

helping others who are in situations like you were in before , which I think is tremendous , and I think we all applaud because you know that sort of peer support and advice I think is so important .

Jerry Gretzinger 10:25

And right now , what you're doing sharing your stories with people out there who may be thinking well , I'm in this position . I don't know . Has anybody ever , like , made it , made it through to the other side ? And here are two examples of not only making it through through the other side , but now helping others do the same thing . So I think that speaks volumes right there . But so let's continue to talk to the people who may be listening to this wondering okay , so what was next ? You made this decision . I need to turn something around . We talked about supports and services . What were the things that were most helpful to help you get to that point where you could say no , I'm not going to buy that scratch off , I'm not going to play those numbers , I'm going to find a different way .

Albert Aponte 11:00

You just said it , the support , you know , finding those that who better to help you than somebody that's been there right and staying connected . You know , and talking about it , you know because there was at one time there was a lot of shame .

Albert Aponte 11:23

I felt shame , you know , to talk about the issues you know in my life . Today I feel proud of myself and it's rewarding to see that I'm able to help other people , you know , and to see them progress also , you know , in their recovery . It's I can't explain it . There's something , a feeling inside of you , that you say , yes , I'm doing the right thing now .

Luis Laboy 11:49

Gratifying . Definitely , in the beginning I had to understand addiction . I went through a long journey . It took me a few years to understand addiction , to understand that gambling and drug use was only a symptom of my problem , that the problem of addiction is up here in the head , in the brain , right the production of neurotransmitters abnormally being created for instant gratification . So I had to learn to explore new things to do . You know , I tried ice skating . I fell on the ice in Walman Rink . I didn't like it . I tried ice skating . I fell on the ice in Walman Rink . I didn't like it , so I stopped doing it . I went running . I ran the marathon , the New York City Marathon .

Luis Laboy 12:24

It was exhilarating .

Luis Laboy 12:26

I loved it . I thought I would never do it again , but two years later I ran it the second time .

Jerry Gretzinger 12:30

No kidding , wow .

Luis Laboy 12:32

So there was things that I had to explore and discover for myself that created pleasure , a natural high instant gratification that produced neurotransmitters , and with support . That was only with support because I couldn't see my defects , my character defects , right . What I wanted in my life all the time was sex , drugs , gambling and salsa mambo right . Most people would say sex , drugs and rock and roll , but for a Latino , that's what it is, right .

Luis Laboy 13:01

So then , other individuals in recovery from gambling and addiction helped me identify these consequences of drug use , the relapse triggers , right , that came from things that I saw , things that I smelled , things that I tasted , things that I heard , things that I touched and emotions that I was going through that would bring me back to a subconscious level where I was gambling and using drugs and creating strong triggers and being an addict , I had this impulse to react to those thoughts , but in recovery I learned how to put a stop sign between the thought and the reaction . So I'm still an addict . I still get cravings once in a while . I just don't respond to them the way I did .

Jerry Gretzinger 13:46

So , as you guys were explaining this , I started thinking and you talked about triggers , things that come back and give you those sensations again , but you're able to put up that stop sign . I'm wondering for yourselves and for others maybe in similar situations . You know you talked about once playing dice or doing the scratch offs or whatever else . I mean the fact that now you know you can find wagering opportunities 24 hours a day , seven days a week on your phone . Does that present a whole new level of potential triggers ? Just seeing that it's there , and then all the commercials on TV saying you know , hey , we'll give you $500 if you spend $10

Modern Gambling Triggers and Resources

Jerry Gretzinger 14:23

or whatever . I mean that's going to be a whole other challenge to try to say no , I'm good .

Albert Aponte 14:27

Well , for everybody . Everybody's recovery is different . Right , for me it has no effect on me . However , I know a lot of people that it has effect on them , especially when they're offering free money . That's how they rule you in . So I know that could present a problem for the individual who we're working with Because , like I said , for me it might not be a problem , but I know for them it is . So the thing is to help them identify that . That is one of their triggers , you know , to avoid , you know , putting downloading that into your phone , you know .

Luis Laboy 15:15

Right . So in this whole process right especially with the phones now , very similar to what we went through with gambling and alcohol use and drug use we have to develop an awareness and get support to develop a relapse prevention plan . I know I like this stuff . It's right on my phone , so I've got to think about the consequences if I continue to play on the phone . I've got to think about the positive affirmations . If I don't Money in my pocket vacations I keep my family , keep my job , my apartment .

Albert Aponte 15:44

My house .

Luis Laboy 15:45

I also need to call my support system and let them know the feelings that I'm going through . Listen , I've got the phone right in my hand . I feel like pressing the button . Express your feelings and let those feelings pass , that craving pass . And then the most important thing is meet another person in recovery . Make a meeting , find another person that has the same issue , that's in recovery like you . Because it's a ping pong effect right , one day the cravings and the addiction is affecting me real hard , but it might not be affecting you today . So by me talking to you , you'll support me in going through the process , one day at a time , one moment at a time , one step at a time .

Albert Aponte 16:24

Yeah , the worst thing you could think is that you could do this by yourself . It's not happening , because who better than yourself to con yourself ? You start believing your own lies . So the support is very big , you know .

Jerry Gretzinger 16:46

So if we do have people who are listening to this podcast or watching whatever the case may be , and they're sort of on the fence , they're like , well , I don't know , I don't know how involved is it ? I mean , do I want to pick up the phone and really talk to somebody ? How would you help them make that first step ? What would you say ?

Luis Laboy 17:05

The first thing I would do is try and encourage them to do a self-screening . If I could get them to access a screening they can start raising awareness about , maybe I do have a problem . But the first thing I also would do is give them my phone number right 718-299-1100 . 718-299-1100 . That's Acacia Network . If you call and you tell me that you have a gambling issue , then we can start talking about possibly helping you with treatment if that's what you need , support if that's what you need , peer services if that's what you need . But definitely I do recommend Gamblers Anonymous , also Gammonon for the family members and financial advice . That's for free now provided by OASAS , which is amazing . So I will start in those routes , letting them know what's available , that there is help available .

Albert Aponte 17:57

There's plenty of help out there now . Yeah .

Jerry Gretzinger 18:00

And we just so .

Jerry Gretzinger 18:01

I'm glad you pointed out the different resources that are provided through the organizations here , that what OASAS is trying to do , and you know our slogan is every step of the way right , and I think the most important step is that first one . So , hopefully , by you giving out that phone number to you guys sharing your stories today , you know we're helping somebody take that first step and it's , you know , just to start the conversation . It can be with someone , that's , you know , not going to judge , there's nothing being held against them , they lose nothing , but they can start finding out if this is something that they should be working with somebody through . So , guys , I want to thank you both . Lewis Albert , thank you so much for coming out and sharing your stories OASAS are so proud of the two of you and everybody who does the type of work you do , taking your experiences to help others through theirs . So we applaud you .

Luis Laboy 18:51

Thank you .

Albert Aponte 18:51

Excellent . Thank you for having us .

Jerry Gretzinger 18:53

Absolutely .

Luis Laboy 18:53

It's all about love for humanity .

Jerry Gretzinger 18:56

Yep , yep , and there's a lot of it here . We can tell that for sure . Thanks again , guys .

Albert Aponte 18:59

Thank you . One thing we share our story is not to boast , but it's to inspire people and motivate them to change .

Jerry Gretzinger 19:07

And we hope to have done that today . All right , so I'm going to share some more information

Final Words and Contact Information

Jerry Gretzinger 19:12

for you . If you're looking to take that first step , you can always find OASAS Supports and Services online oasas . ny . gov oasas . ny . gov . There's also our Hope Line , 877-8-HOPE-NY 877-8-HOPE-NY . Make a call any time of day , send us an email , send a text to the Hope Line . You can do that too . Lots of people eager to help you take that first step . I'm Jerry Gretzinger , your host for Addiction: The Next Step , until we see you again next time . Be well .