Isabel Byon: 0:00

The New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports, or OASAS, provides this podcast as a public service. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the agency or state. This is Addiction: The Next Step.

Jerry Gretzinger: 0:19

Hey everybody, Jerry Gretzinger, your host for Addiction: The Next Step, thanks for checking out this episode of the podcast. And today the topic that we're getting into is problem gambling. You know we've done several episodes where we discuss problem gambling and a lot of it talks about how the landscape has changed. You know, not just in New York State, obviously, but around the world, because it used to be, if you wanted to participate in some form of gambling, maybe you'd go take a day at the races, you'd go to a casino. Now, if you have your phone, it's at your fingertips 24 hours a day, seven days a week. But what we're going to do today is we're going to talk to a couple of men who are working in problem gambling, trying to help folks who are living with that in their lives, who have also lived with it in their own lives. So, guys, I want to introduce you and start by thanking you both for being here to share your stories.

Jerry Gretzinger: 1:05

We've got Louis Laboy. He's with the Acacia Network, the Bronx Senior Administrator for OASAS Residential Services. Thank you for sitting down with us today. Thank you for having us, Jerry. We've also got Albert Aponte. He is the Peer Supervisor Samaritan Daytop at the Richard Pruss Wellness Center in the Bronx. Thank you, sir. Thank you for inviting us. So we chatted briefly before we started rolling here today and we said how, very often, what is most compelling and really most helpful is for people who may be experiencing some concerns about problem gambling in their lives to hear the stories of others, and I know, as I said, both of you have your own stories to tell. So that's why I want to start. I want to start by me sitting back and hearing what you have to tell us about your experience with this in your life. So why don't you go ahead and start for us?

Luis Laboy : 1:52

So Luis Loboy from Acacia Network. So I can tell you, Jerry, that gambling started out early on in my life where it was a cultural activity accepted with dominoes, dice, cards, bingo. It became problematic early on as a teenager playing three-card, monty, you know, and getting chased by the police, and it elevated into. There was a time where I was incarcerated when I was gambling for, uh, sugar cigarettes wow, yeah yeah, we played cards, so it becomes problematic.

Luis Laboy : 2:34

Uh, my aunt played every day, at least $200 a day all her life and that was interesting so we thought it was normal

Jerry Gretzinger: 2:41

So you kind of brought up with it really, right?

Luis Laboy : 2:43

So we thought it was fine.

Jerry Gretzinger: 2:46

And when you said early on like how old were you?

Luis Laboy : 2:48

Oh, we started gambling. Probably about eight years old.

Jerry Gretzinger: 2:51

And you said it was sort of a cultural thing, it was just accepted.

Luis Laboy : 2:54

It was just accepted and we gambled for toys, desserts, cookies.

Jerry Gretzinger: 2:59

And I'm sure when you're doing that at that age, a lot of people look at it and think it seems pretty innocent.

Luis Laboy : 3:06

Normal

Jerry Gretzinger: 3:06

Yeah

Luis Laboy : 3:07

And it's okay.

Jerry Gretzinger: 3:09

So how did it advance, then, from being something where you were, like you know, playing cards for cookies or candy or sugar or whatever it may be, to where it became problematic, where you said whoa, something's got to give here.

Luis Laboy : 3:20

Yeah, I thought it was a job at one point, ended up getting incarcerated but it did get to the point where you lose everything. I had co-occurring disorders where I started using substances early on as well, so that elevated to a tolerance and to a point where I became suicidal.

Jerry Gretzinger: 3:38

Really?

Luis Laboy : 3:39

At the end.

Luis Laboy : 3:39

Yeah.

Jerry Gretzinger: 3:40

And so, just to give people a sense, what was the age range you were in at that point?

Luis Laboy : 3:45

I was about 38 years old.

Jerry Gretzinger: 3:46

Okay.

Jerry Gretzinger: 3:47

So you had started so early on with the very simple, seemingly innocent type of gambling and at 38, it had grown to such a point where you said you had suicidal thoughts.

Luis Laboy : 3:57

Jails institutions.

Jerry Gretzinger: 3:59

What was it that led to the incarceration, like I know?

Jerry Gretzinger: 4:02

just again to kind of explain for people how significant this got

Luis Laboy : 4:06

Yeah, seeking income, seeking money to play with or to use drugs to support the habit.

Jerry Gretzinger: 4:13

So at that point you were saying you had some co-occurring issues going on. So you had the substance, you had the gambling and you were looking for money to be able to afford both.

Luis Laboy : 4:22

Right. That became more important than anything else in my life, More important than food, family, sex. Most important. My brain was hijacked.

Jerry Gretzinger: 4:31

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah, because some people are just they're hardwired for that to be potentially more of an issue than others.

Luis Laboy : 4:42

Definitely yeah. Susceptibility, inheritance, things like that, the environment being exposed to it.

Jerry Gretzinger: 4:50

What was the point when you decided no more, I need to work on something here.

Luis Laboy : 4:57

Incarceration, solitary confinement. I started looking at myself, see what was going on. I got lucky and got recruited into Phoenix House. There was a Phoenix House in 1997 in the Department of Corrections, and they recruited me for treatment and that helped me a great deal. It helped me identify my triggers, the consequences of continued drug use, and it implanted hope that there was a possibility that I could change at some time, and now I pass it forward to other people.

Jerry Gretzinger: 5:30

Was there a point and I imagine there is for everyone when they're at that bridge, if you will, when they say, okay, I've got to make a decision here. Did you look at it and say, okay, I've got an issue with gambling, I've got an issue with substances. Did you feel like I don't know if I can be helped, what can be done to get me across that bridge?

Luis Laboy : 5:50

Very interesting. I didn't know there was help at the time, but I did find out there was Gamblers Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous and I started to reach out and I learned all this through treatment Phoenix House at the time and I just took the initiative to try and figure out how can I stay home, stay out of trouble, get married, go on vacations, have money in my pocket. But first of all I had to learn how to control my desire to gamble and use drugs.

Jerry Gretzinger: 6:23

So, and I want us to be able to talk. You mentioned about not being aware that there were such services and supports available. You learned about that. I do want us to talk about that, and I think we'll get into that in just a moment because first I want to switch over to Albert and I want you to take us through your journey that helped get you to that point where we're about to start talking about supports and services and how we, how we moved towards, you know, recovering from all of that. But so where did you find yourself? You know getting into gambling and that becoming a problem in your life.

Albert Aponte: 6:49

Well, my story is more or less like Louis'. You know, I grew up in a family where gambling was accepted. Um, they used to sit down at the table on a Friday after work and then get up until Monday morning to go back to work. So me, as a kid six, seven years old they used to put chairs together so I could lay down on the chair and sleep. That's how much they went to the gambling. So to me, seeing this, it was normal. So my mother used to scold me and punish me because she used to catch me outside pitching pennies and, from there, playing dice. And as I kept growing, it kept progressing, but I didn't see it. I didn't think I had a problem because it was normal to me.

Albert Aponte: 7:47

And in my culture, in Hispanic culture, we do a lot of gambling. You know which is acceptable, like cockfights, right the boxing. You know baseball games, World Series. You know all this. We used to gamble and it was normal. You know, I saw it. You know we do it. My family does it. Why can't I? You know. However, yeah, like Louis, you know I, I got into selling drugs so I could make money. So now I'm playing scratch-off tickets, so my profits was going in me using drugs and playing the scratch-off and playing the numbers, the illegal numbers, what we call bolida. So during again, like Louis, I also went to Phoenix House and I give them credit for the information that they gave. They were providing us about addiction, and still I didn't see gambling as a problem. So, but when I wanted to buy something and it was something that was needed in the house, but I chose to gamble my money to try to make more money to do so, then I noticed I got a problem.

Jerry Gretzinger: 9:18

So that was your point where you said wait a minute, I'm choosing gambling over necessities.

Albert Aponte: 9:24

Yes, correct. That's when I realized that something's got to give. My wife told me you're spending our money. I said, yeah, I'm trying to make more money without taking the risk of getting arrested because I don't want to sell drugs, no more. But that didn't work out. I just kept finding myself in a hole and digging the hole deeper and deeper.

Jerry Gretzinger: 9:50

Which is often where people find themselves. The hole keeps getting deeper and deeper. I want to point out too, we've just discussed your lived experience with gambling and, obviously, substance use. That became a part of that as well, and we're now going to discuss how you kind of put things together to walk away from that part of your life and to be in recovery from it all. But also, I just want to point out, you both work now helping others who are in situations like you were in before, which I think is tremendous, and I think we all applaud because you know that sort of peer support and advice I think is so important.

Jerry Gretzinger: 10:25

And right now, what you're doing sharing your stories with people out there who may be thinking well, I'm in this position. I don't know. Has anybody ever, like, made it, made it through to the other side? And here are two examples of not only making it through through the other side, but now helping others do the same thing. So I think that speaks volumes right there. But so let's continue to talk to the people who may be listening to this wondering okay, so what was next? You made this decision. I need to turn something around. We talked about supports and services. What were the things that were most helpful to help you get to that point where you could say no, I'm not going to buy that scratch off, I'm not going to play those numbers, I'm going to find a different way.

Albert Aponte: 11:00

You just said it, the support, you know, finding those that who better to help you than somebody that's been there right and staying connected. You know, and talking about it, you know because there was at one time there was a lot of shame.

Albert Aponte: 11:23

I felt shame, you know, to talk about the issues you know in my life. Today I feel proud of myself and it's rewarding to see that I'm able to help other people, you know, and to see them progress also, you know, in their recovery. It's I can't explain it. There's something, a feeling inside of you, that you say, yes, I'm doing the right thing now.

Luis Laboy : 11:49

Gratifying. Definitely, in the beginning I had to understand addiction. I went through a long journey. It took me a few years to understand addiction, to understand that gambling and drug use was only a symptom of my problem, that the problem of addiction is up here in the head, in the brain, right the production of neurotransmitters abnormally being created for instant gratification. So I had to learn to explore new things to do. You know, I tried ice skating. I fell on the ice in Walman Rink. I didn't like it. I tried ice skating. I fell on the ice in Walman Rink. I didn't like it, so I stopped doing it. I went running. I ran the marathon, the New York City Marathon.

Luis Laboy : 12:24

It was exhilarating.

Luis Laboy : 12:26

I loved it. I thought I would never do it again, but two years later I ran it the second time.

Jerry Gretzinger: 12:30

No kidding, wow.

Luis Laboy : 12:32

So there was things that I had to explore and discover for myself that created pleasure, a natural high instant gratification that produced neurotransmitters, and with support. That was only with support because I couldn't see my defects, my character defects, right. What I wanted in my life all the time was sex, drugs, gambling and salsa mambo right. Most people would say sex, drugs and rock and roll, but for a Latino, that's what it is, right.

Luis Laboy : 13:01

So then, other individuals in recovery from gambling and addiction helped me identify these consequences of drug use, the relapse triggers, right, that came from things that I saw, things that I smelled, things that I tasted, things that I heard, things that I touched and emotions that I was going through that would bring me back to a subconscious level where I was gambling and using drugs and creating strong triggers and being an addict, I had this impulse to react to those thoughts, but in recovery I learned how to put a stop sign between the thought and the reaction. So I'm still an addict. I still get cravings once in a while. I just don't respond to them the way I did.

Jerry Gretzinger: 13:46

So, as you guys were explaining this, I started thinking and you talked about triggers, things that come back and give you those sensations again, but you're able to put up that stop sign. I'm wondering for yourselves and for others maybe in similar situations. You know you talked about once playing dice or doing the scratch offs or whatever else. I mean the fact that now you know you can find wagering opportunities 24 hours a day, seven days a week on your phone. Does that present a whole new level of potential triggers? Just seeing that it's there, and then all the commercials on TV saying you know, hey, we'll give you $500 if you spend $10 or whatever. I mean that's going to be a whole other challenge to try to say no, I'm good.

Albert Aponte: 14:27

Well, for everybody. Everybody's recovery is different. Right, for me it has no effect on me. However, I know a lot of people that it has effect on them, especially when they're offering free money. That's how they rule you in. So I know that could present a problem for the individual who we're working with Because, like I said, for me it might not be a problem, but I know for them it is. So the thing is to help them identify that. That is one of their triggers, you know, to avoid, you know, putting downloading that into your phone, you know.

Luis Laboy : 15:15

Right. So in this whole process right especially with the phones now, very similar to what we went through with gambling and alcohol use and drug use we have to develop an awareness and get support to develop a relapse prevention plan. I know I like this stuff. It's right on my phone, so I've got to think about the consequences if I continue to play on the phone. I've got to think about the positive affirmations. If I don't Money in my pocket vacations I keep my family, keep my job, my apartment.

Albert Aponte: 15:44

My house.

Luis Laboy : 15:45

I also need to call my support system and let them know the feelings that I'm going through. Listen, I've got the phone right in my hand. I feel like pressing the button. Express your feelings and let those feelings pass, that craving pass. And then the most important thing is meet another person in recovery. Make a meeting, find another person that has the same issue, that's in recovery like you. Because it's a ping pong effect right, one day the cravings and the addiction is affecting me real hard, but it might not be affecting you today. So by me talking to you, you'll support me in going through the process, one day at a time, one moment at a time, one step at a time.

Albert Aponte: 16:24

Yeah, the worst thing you could think is that you could do this by yourself. It's not happening, because who better than yourself to con yourself? You start believing your own lies. So the support is very big, you know.

Jerry Gretzinger: 16:46

So if we do have people who are listening to this podcast or watching whatever the case may be, and they're sort of on the fence, they're like, well, I don't know, I don't know how involved is it? I mean, do I want to pick up the phone and really talk to somebody? How would you help them make that first step? What would you say?

Luis Laboy : 17:05

The first thing I would do is try and encourage them to do a self-screening. If I could get them to access a screening they can start raising awareness about, maybe I do have a problem. But the first thing I also would do is give them my phone number right 718-299-1100. 718-299-1100. That's Acacia Network. If you call and you tell me that you have a gambling issue, then we can start talking about possibly helping you with treatment if that's what you need, support if that's what you need, peer services if that's what you need. But definitely I do recommend Gamblers Anonymous, also Gammonon for the family members and financial advice. That's for free now provided by OASAS, which is amazing. So I will start in those routes, letting them know what's available, that there is help available.

Albert Aponte: 17:57

There's plenty of help out there now. Yeah.

Jerry Gretzinger: 18:00

And we just so.

Jerry Gretzinger: 18:01

I'm glad you pointed out the different resources that are provided through the organizations here, that what OASAS is trying to do, and you know our slogan is every step of the way right, and I think the most important step is that first one. So, hopefully, by you giving out that phone number to you guys sharing your stories today, you know we're helping somebody take that first step and it's, you know, just to start the conversation. It can be with someone, that's, you know, not going to judge, there's nothing being held against them, they lose nothing, but they can start finding out if this is something that they should be working with somebody through. So, guys, I want to thank you both. Lewis Albert, thank you so much for coming out and sharing your stories OASAS are so proud of the two of you and everybody who does the type of work you do, taking your experiences to help others through theirs. So we applaud you.

Luis Laboy : 18:51

Thank you.

Albert Aponte: 18:51

Excellent. Thank you for having us.

Jerry Gretzinger: 18:53

Absolutely.

Luis Laboy : 18:53

It's all about love for humanity.

Jerry Gretzinger: 18:56

Yep, yep, and there's a lot of it here. We can tell that for sure. Thanks again, guys.

Albert Aponte: 18:59

Thank you. One thing we share our story is not to boast, but it's to inspire people and motivate them to change.

Jerry Gretzinger: 19:07

And we hope to have done that today. All right, so I'm going to share some more information for you. If you're looking to take that first step, you can always find OASAS Supports and Services online oasas. ny. gov oasas. ny. gov. There's also our Hope Line, 877-8-HOPE-NY 877-8-HOPE-NY. Make a call any time of day, send us an email, send a text to the Hope Line. You can do that too. Lots of people eager to help you take that first step. I'm Jerry Gretzinger, your host for Addiction: The Next Step, until we see you again next time. Be well.