Isabel Byon: 0:00

The New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports, or OASAS, provides this podcast as a public service. Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the agency or state. This is Addiction: The Next Step

Jerry Gretzinger: 0:21

Hey everybody, Jerry Gretzinger here, your host for Addiction: T he Next Step, the podcast brought to you by the New York State Office of Addiction Services and Supports. We thank you for checking out this episode and today I'll tell you. We always love talking to people who have really motivating and inspiring stories to share, and we've got just one of those today to share with you. I want to introduce Anthony Kohl. He's joining us here. He works as the Senior Peer Coordinator at VIP Services in the Bronx. Anthony, thanks so much for taking time to sit down with us today.

Anthony Kohl: 0:53

Thanks for having me, Jerry. I really appreciate you acknowledging this. Thank you so much.

Jerry Gretzinger: 0:58

We appreciate you joining us and I think people understand why very quickly. Just recently, Anthony was recognized as a Peer Specialist of the Year and this is a big deal because, you know, they only have a handful of people who get this distinction and Anthony was that guy recently and today he's joining us to talk not just about that, but what brought him to that point. And Anthony, I know it's. You know, as anyone who is currently a peer and works in this line of work, they often have a story to tell and you definitely have a story which I think is important for people to hear and, again, as we said before, it can be inspiring, motivating, and I want to have, first of all, congratulations on the award.

Anthony Kohl: 1:40

Thank you very much again.

Jerry Gretzinger: 1:41

It's tremendous, and I want to just have you go back now and talk to us about let's not start with the work you do. Talk to us about where your story began, because I'm hoping what we can do is make a connection with others who are out there listening, who may be living with substance use of some kind, and there's always that question can I do this, can I get into treatment, can I begin a life of recovery? And that's what you were able to do. But I think your story is important because it wasn't like an overnight success. You had to work at it to make it happen. So let me stop talking and let you start talking. Take us back in Anthony's life, to where it all began.

Anthony Kohl: 2:19

My history. I had many years of substance abuse and it was very prevalent in my family. Back in the 70s and 80s my uncles and aunts had used drugs occasionally and drank. Some of them had issues, some of them didn't. But I grew up around it. I lived in Washington Heights, that's upper Manhattan by 193rd and St Nicholas Avenue. She's very drug-infested and they call it one of the cocaine capitals of New York. So growing up I saw a lot of it while I was in high school.

Anthony Kohl: 2:48

But since I played football I was able to get out, go to college and still dib and dab and fool around and thinking that I'm in control and I can do this, I can do that. And then I went into the military. After all that and still thinking it was okay to do this once in a while and just not having any consequences for my action was a lot of my story. In the beginning, you know, my mother had passed away. When I was 15. I took care of my brother and sister, helped raise them and always said to them don't smoke pot, don't do this, don't do that. But yet I was doing and for many years when I was married I continued using on and off and it.

Anthony Kohl: 3:28

I didn't need a hard feeling or a bad feeling to use, I just used right and I could, and I continued using and never seek help, never thought that you know I would stop. And then you know, after going to be incarcerated a couple of times, I was on a bus coming home from Florida because I got incarcerated in Florida and I'm saying to myself I can't live like this anymore. I can't put my family through this. Getting removed from my family, not having any friends that can count on me, it's just really like you know, I was lost. So I came back to New York and I said I got to do something different.

Anthony Kohl: 4:02

I went to an outpatient program at one of our local hospitals. It was called Jacoby Hospital in the Bronx. I was a part of their outpatient program and one of their counselors said hey, Anthony, everybody seems to listen to you when you're talking. You should become a recovery coach. I said, nah, I don't think I can do that. You know he goes.

Anthony Kohl: 4:21

Anthony, give it a try. Because I knew nothing about harm reduction. I knew nothing about people living with the disease. I knew about methadone and suboxone because I don't like. I said that I used, but my story was taking me to a point of using cocaine, drinking alcohol, for saying, oh, at least I'm not doing heroin. And that wasn't even what my mind was thinking. My mind was you know, I'm just gonna do it until I die, I guess. But with all that guilt I was having and just feeling like not being connected with anything, you know I was standing with 70 men at attention. I felt like I was alone and couldn't wait until I went out to drink at night or waited until I separated myself from what I had signed up,

Jerry Gretzinger: 5:01

Anthony.

Jerry Gretzinger: 5:02

I'm sorry, I don't mean to cut you off.

Jerry Gretzinger: 5:04

But I just I wanted to jump in because I know you talked a little bit about how you know, when you were younger you used a little bit here, you used a little bit there. You played football. You kept using a little bit here and there. You were in the military. We're using a little bit here and there. And then you said it came a point where you started getting incarcerated. So I just I want, I want to go back and kind of expand a little bit. I mean, so it went from cause, you know, we, we do hear from some people, right, they're like oh, I use recreationally, I use a little bit here, I use it every so often, but it's not a problem for me. So when did it go from? Like you said, you know you were younger, I try a little bit of this, I try a little bit of that. When did it, or how did it get to the point where it became more of a concern, more of a common occurrence for you to be using to where you got to the point of being incarcerated.

Anthony Kohl: 5:55

You know, I started noticing I was working two jobs just to feed my habit and using all the time even though I was paying bills with my wife and the kids and taking care of them.

Anthony Kohl: 6:06

I just felt like I was chasing the drug and I was never getting satisfied. I was always on that roller coaster up and down, up and down. Then I started getting arrested and the consequences started coming like a roller coaster to me and I wasn't ready for them. So once I would be removed I would get this sadness and depression and not know how to address it. So, like I was saying, when I got back at the Jacoby Hospital and I did that outpatient program I'm sorry, I did that outpatient program I met a lot of interesting people that were in recovery and they knew about Narcotics Anonymous and other groups like that. And it's funny because 36 years ago I drove my cousin to Phoenix House at two o'clock in the morning and he has 36 years clean and I have 10.

Jerry Gretzinger: 6:50

Wow, that's great.

Anthony Kohl: 6:51

You know what I'm saying.

Jerry Gretzinger: 6:51

Two good stories.

Anthony Kohl: 6:52

You know I'm great and happy, but I say, wow, he stayed with it because he goes, won't you come with me, Anthony? And I was like I don't need it. But you know, in reality I did

Jerry Gretzinger: 7:01

Right.

Anthony Kohl: 7:02

That's that's what we're talking about. The hardness came in and the desperation and just feeling alone and nothing is ever good enough. If I got a trophy like this 10 years ago, I would have said it was the ugliest thing in the world.

Jerry Gretzinger: 7:14

You have a trophy there I don't deserve it.

Anthony Kohl: 7:16

Yep, I would have said I don't deserve it.

Jerry Gretzinger: 7:18

Oh, there, he's got it. So if you're listening to the podcast.

Anthony Kohl: 7:21

This is the trophy they gave me, and this is the plaque.

Jerry Gretzinger: 7:23

Oh, that's great. If you were listening to the podcast, you'll have to check out the video version. You can go to YouTube and check it out, because he's showing us right now the plaque and the trophy, which is tremendous for good work.

Anthony Kohl: 7:34

And it's heavy.

Jerry Gretzinger: 7:37

Well, that means it's good, right? It's heavy, it's good.

Anthony Kohl: 7:40

Yeah, it's amazing because I went to the, to the NatCon National Wellbeing Conference and all that stuff and I'm meeting all these people that are in recovery. You know Rob Lowe was there and he's talking to us about how he had to recover and how he had to change his life and now he had to make decisions that were close to him being better. Because I keep saying to myself the first thing they tell you on the airplane put the mask on yourself before you can put it on anybody. And I live that every day because I know if I'm not good to myself right now and I'm not doing the right thing, the right thing, you know, for Anthony, how can I help John in the park that hasn't eaten lunch in two days? You know I give out 50 lunches every day and I see people in the park. They're coming out with their kids so they can be their meal for the day. It makes my heart.

Jerry Gretzinger: 8:30

I don't want to keep going back, but I want to make sure that I get something that I think may be useful to other people who are listening to this. I know you said that it got to the point you had been using a little bit at a time, and then you found yourself working a second job just so that you could sort of keep feeding your habit. So at that time of your life now, you know, looking back, you can acknowledge okay, it was getting out of control. It was using more frequently, it was becoming an issue. At that time, though, did you still say to people oh, I just use every now and then, oh, it's still an occasional thing, it's not a problem. Is that what you were saying at the time?

Anthony Kohl: 9:04

A hundred percent. I thought of myself as a recreational user until I started becoming Sunday night football. Monday night football, tuesday basketball, wednesday baseball. I was a sports fan and I was getting high every night. It was seven days a week. I went to rehab, never had to do a detox, because for cocaine there's no detox, so we did the rehab. I would get out after 30 days. On the 50th day I was going back out and picking up because I wasn't working on myself and I wasn't making that change I need to make so my life can improve and I can be better to other people and be better to myself. I kept making bad choices.

Jerry Gretzinger: 9:51

Do you find in the work that you do now that a lot of people find themselves in a similar situation where you know when they first start out trying something like this they don't have an intention of having it be a problem that gets out of their control but that's where it winds up.

Anthony Kohl: 9:52

You know, what I find is that if they're not working on themselves, but they're just staying abstinent, not doing drugs but not peeling the onion and not talking to another human being about how they're feeling and what was the slow point of their life, and acknowledging those feelings and the days of disparity, of feeling like nobody cares, nobody loves, and you're doing it to yourself because you're removing yourself from situations where you can be loved, because you're chasing the dragon, you know, chasing the drug. And when I talk to these news guys, I tell them remember, this is temporary. When you get out of the rehab in nine months, I don't ever have to see you again if you don't want, but you can do the best you can to stay away, and that's by staying clean and getting on a new journey you know people, places you think was a big trigger for me.

Anthony Kohl: 10:38

I have uncles, I love cousins, I love ex-football players.

Anthony Kohl: 10:41

I know that you, I, can't hang out with them, I can't go visit them and I choose not to because I don't want to put myself at risk.

Anthony Kohl: 10:47

And VIP has helped me stay that way, just by working with people every day and saying but there go I. You know, I'm that close to feeling like that again and I have to keep my feelings and my mind in tune of convincing myself that I'm never going to pick up again, because I don't know the true answer to that and we never know the answer to that, but we know, just for today, I'm going to make better choices and I'm going to talk to people and try to help them and continue to support them. I bring them clothes, I bring them food, like I said, and it makes me feel good because this gift of recovery was given to me free and I have to be able to give it back to somebody, so I can keep it. Do you understand what I mean,

Jerry Gretzinger: 11:28

I do, I totally know what you mean.

Anthony Kohl: 11:33

Every day I'm out there. We were at the National Council Convention this year and I was with my son. He's 34 years old, doesn't have a drug habit, doesn't know none of that. And we're going into the elevator and a guy passed out. I said give me the Narcan Boom. We say we go, dad, what are you doing? I was like don't worry. He's like, don't touch that guy. You know stigma. Getting in your feelings and I'm like and I'm not mad at him. I just said, son, you better remember they're human, just like you. And when you can see the human side of a person who is addiction to substances or mental health. Because I needed somebody to relate to Anthony so I could feel comfortable. The only two people in my life that related to me was my high school coach and my mother. She passed away and he passed away. Who else is going to relate to me? Because I know when I was using him I wasn't related to him, I was just existing.

Jerry Gretzinger: 12:23

Well, you just said who else can relate to me and I'm thinking there's probably a lot of people listening to you now telling your story who can relate to you and say, yeah, I kind of know where he was, I know where he's at. Let me ask you this too. I know you said is your cousin who's 36 years in?

Anthony Kohl: 12:38

recovery.

Jerry Gretzinger: 12:38

Yep, All right. So and you said you're 10. I was looking at some of the details of your story. Did you have a period in your life where you were able to be in recovery and then had a situation where you went back to use again and had to kind of put it back together again?

Anthony Kohl: 12:51

So two or three different times I would have two years, 24 months steady, and then somebody would pass away and I would go out and use. Like that for me was a sign like, okay, go party. I don't know why, but that's what I related it to Get out of your feelings and just disappear. And then another time I had 18 months and then when I was incarcerated, I had two years prior to that not using, getting incarcerated for an old violation that I was still clean and I said, man, now I'm in jail and I'm clean what the hell. And I wound up doing four years. At that time you know altogether I'm not using and I still went out and used because I didn't feel like I was ready to stop and I had to really do a rude awakening this last time and just say you know, you can't live like this anymore.

Anthony Kohl: 13:39

Anthony, look at what you're putting your family through. Look at what you're putting yourself through. You're in your emotions. You were never like that. In high school I would knock someone down on the football field. I'm 6'5", 200 pounds and I would chuckle. Now I'm only in my feelings. I don't think I can do that anymore. Now I'm picking people up when they need to be lifted. I lift them up and try to show them that you know you can make a change, but you've got to want this more than anything.

Jerry Gretzinger: 14:01

You know you talked about your son, right.

Anthony Kohl: 14:06

Yeah, 34 years old.

Jerry Gretzinger: 14:06

You talked about family right and about how you thought about. You know what this is doing to my family and I want to keep my family together. Am I correct? That was your son graduating at one point and that was one of the moments that made you sit back and say I need to do better for myself and for them.

Anthony Kohl: 14:22

So he was graduating from college and I went down to Florida with two years clean and I got arrested again. And then I came back to Florida with two years clean and I got arrested again. And then I came back After I did two years for the violation. I was on that bus and I was saying, wow man, I got removed from them again. I had the opportunity to be a part of something that was bigger than me his graduation. I saw it and then I got arrested, but not for breaking the law, for a traffic violation.

Jerry Gretzinger: 14:47

Right, right right.

Anthony Kohl: 14:48

And my name came up and I put the handcuffs on and I said I got to do what I got to do. I went in, I did it, but I was just thinking on the bus ride home from Florida I was saying, man, I got to stop, I'm going to die, I don't want to do this. And I kept whispering to myself, talking to myself. Your father died of an overdose and nobody was there to help him because Narcan wasn't around in 1966.

Anthony Kohl: 15:09

I'm born in 1965. My mother passed away at the age of 34 and you know a lot of substances and other like sicknesses were a part of her story. But you know I can make a difference. Maybe live with her a little longer, try to help people. You know now's the time to do it, Anthony, you have a chance. You know now's the time to do it, Anthony. You have a chance and it has stuck with me because, you know, at VIP I have the opportunity to do all this and I have the opportunity to go work at a job in Manhattan where they say they do this, they do that, but at VIP, the people in my community where I was brought up and raised. I need to be around them so they can remind me every day of what's going on. And I call my son and I tell him I love him and I'm proud of him.

Jerry Gretzinger: 15:51

And you know you talk about the job that you do and you lift people up when they're down, that need to be lifted up, and about how much of an impact you're making. And I just want to point out you said that when you first thought about doing this type of work, you thought, oh, I don't know, I can't do that. But now you do a great deal of that.

Jerry Gretzinger: 16:08

You're not only doing VIP, but don't you also work with local police and if somebody gets brought in for substance use?

Anthony Kohl: 16:17

So my other job is with the Bronx Heroin, overdose Prevention Education, which is an intervention support system. So if a person in the Bronx gets arrested for a minor drug charge, I'm excited when I talk about it. I'm the first peer in the Bronx to be hired for this program six years ago and it's been life-changing for me. I see people where I was and the amazing thing is the first precinct that I went to was the last precinct that I was arrested at.

Jerry Gretzinger: 16:42

Oh, wow.

Anthony Kohl: 16:42

Because you know God has a way of doing things and putting you in places where you don't think you should be. But when I walked out I said, man, I'm not in handcuffs this time. I got to keep coming back and it's called the Bronx Heroin Overdose Prevention Program and we're with the Bronx Community Solutions over at the courthouse. We sit at the precinct sometimes and when people get arrested I go hey, Bill, how you doing? Man, what's going on? What's a barrier from people to, oh, I don't have money to get to detox. I'll pick you up in an hour, sit with me and I'll call somebody. Hey, can you come and get Bill? Let's take him here.

Anthony Kohl: 17:22

And we have people leave straight from the precinct and see me six months later. They look like they had a baby boy. I go yo, Jose, what's going on? He goes oh, Anthony, now I have blood pressure. I said it's better than having an addiction to crack. And we talk about this stuff all the time, me and the guys. Because I see them at my program, because I refer them to come here and they go. You saved my life. But you put me at the precinct because I curse them out if I have to meet them at 10 o'clock at night when the Giants are playing, I go, man, how do you get up on the Giants? What are you doing? Going out to get high on a Saturday night, but in a joking and caring way.

Anthony Kohl: 17:48

And they start talking, and then they're getting help. Some of them say no, Some of them say I'm not ready yet I go. Here's my card.

Anthony Kohl: 17:58

When you're ready give us a call, we're not going to fail you. We need to hear that. Go ahead Jerry.

Jerry Gretzinger: 18:00

I was going to say. You're talking about something that take so seriously here it's about. You You said. are trying to get rid of the barriers that some of them face.

Anthony Kohl: 18:08

Yes, the barriers.

Jerry Gretzinger: 18:10

I'll pick you up.

Anthony Kohl: 18:11

I don't speak English, I'll learn Greek if I had to. On a translator to fill out this piece of paper. I've done it with a Russian guy. He told me his whole life story in seven minutes. It was horrible, but you know what? I was able to get the translation and we got him help and that's what it's about.

Jerry Gretzinger: 18:28

That is so key because, again, people who want to start that journey. If there's a barrier in the way, that can be one small thing that somebody could help out, like you are doing, but it can hold them back.

Anthony Kohl: 18:39

Here goes a great example. The woman told me I need somebody to take care of my cat. I said all right. I made a phone call the next day, adopt an animal, temporarily sheltered the cat for 30 days while she went to rehab. That's one less thing they have to worry about so they can think about themselves. My kids need help. Go on, we're going to get you the help, but if you're not there for you, how can you be there for them? Self-care, Like I learned here, self-care is important. I learned it at VIP.

Jerry Gretzinger: 19:07

And so many things like that that I just don't think a lot of people realize can be.

Jerry Gretzinger: 19:10

so such a game changer to help someone

Anthony Kohl: 19:14

And you see it on their face Because they're used to the door going boom or you're an addict, just go back out, do what you know. I tell them do something different. Get on the train, get on the train, go to the brooklyn bridge, walk it, come back and hang a lock on it and come back in two years. See it, if you don't get incarcerated within that two years, you're doing something right.

Anthony Kohl: 19:37

You know, I tell them stuff like that

Jerry Gretzinger: 19:39

I gotta tell you we, we love hearing stories like the one you're sharing with us today.

Jerry Gretzinger: 19:45

Not just about your journey with coming from substance use yourself and how well you're doing, but the fact that you're using that experience to help others. You're doing what you can to remove barriers so others can get on that journey and stay on that journey. And we want to point out too recovery, as you know, not a destination.

Jerry Gretzinger: 20:02

It continues to be a journey.

Anthony Kohl: 20:03

It's a continued journey, one day at a time, one minute. I've had to do one second at a time. A big tip I have is when I feel like I used to get itchy, I would mail myself my debit card because I knew I would get it in three days and I had no access to money. And maybe that might've been just mental for Anthony, but it seems to have worked and today I have some money in the bank. I'm going to see my sons in Florida July 15th for a couple of weeks.

Anthony Kohl: 20:30

10, 12 years ago I wasn't thinking about going to visit anybody. I was thinking about Anthony and what he was going to do. What's the next thing he could think of? Today I said I got to get up for work. Tomorrow I got to do this. I got to get up for work tomorrow. I got to do this. I got to do that. The thing with the NYPD. I have New York City cops' phone numbers in my phone when I used to run from them and I'm dating an ex-cop

Jerry Gretzinger: 20:52

Wow.

Anthony Kohl: 20:54

She keeps me in line. Her name is Sandy. She's my angel. She's helped me get to where I need to be and trying to become the better person, because I'm not perfect.

Anthony Kohl: 21:03

And I know that

Jerry Gretzinger: 21:04

Sounds like you've been an angel for a lot of people yourself.

Jerry Gretzinger: 21:07

And so again, congratulations on your journey,

Anthony Kohl: 21:10

Thank you, Jerry.

Jerry Gretzinger: 21:10

The work you're doing.

Anthony Kohl: 21:12

You guys made my day, made my week. Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate you. You guys are awesome.

Jerry Gretzinger: 21:24

So listen, I just want to say again you know great work, everybody you know. Listen to Anthony's story, his experience, and I'm sure if anybody you know down in your neck of the woods is hearing this and says I got to talk to that guy, I'm sure they'll have no problem finding you.

Anthony Kohl: 21:31

100%.

Anthony Kohl: 21:32

Come to VIP 770 East 176th Street. We're a methadone program, health service program, wellness program. I'm also a veteran. I'm a diverse veteran to be with the veteran support recovery professional in the state of New York and I do veteran groups on Wednesdays at 12 o'clock and I do groups in a men's shelter down in Manhattan. Mental health and substance abuse.

Anthony Kohl: 21:55

I'm trying to stay busy man.

Jerry Gretzinger: 21:58

And.

Anthony Kohl: 21:58

Jerry, I love you, man.

Anthony Kohl: 22:00

Thank you. Thank you

Jerry Gretzinger: 22:01

All right, thank you. So I'm going to give out some information here really quick. If anybody's looking for some services or supports, you can always find it on our website. It's oasas. ny. gov, O-A-S-A-S, dot N-Y, dot G-O-V. And also, if you're looking for some help, phone and talk to someone immediately 877-8-HOPE-NY, and there'll be somebody there who can assist as well. Thanks for checking out this episode of the podcast. We'll see you again next time and until then, be well.