Hiring and Retention in Nonprofits

Finding and keeping exceptional nonprofit talent requires both competitive compensation and a winning organizational mindset that values staff wellbeing as much as client outcomes. Dan Leal joins Spring Richardson Perry to share wisdom from his 20+ years of nonprofit leadership experience.

• Nonprofit compensation packages must include competitive salaries, quality health benefits (including mental health), and retirement planning
• Boards should shift from a scarcity mindset to a "winning mindset" when approaching organizational finances and hiring
• When hiring executives, look beyond impressive resumes to assess intangible leadership qualities through behavioral interviewing
• Creating diverse organizations begins with heart-centered authentic commitment rather than performative language
• Use technology thoughtfully in hiring processes and maintain human judgment rather than over-relying on automated screening
• Take time with hiring decisions—your people are your organization's most precious resource

If you want to connect with Dan Leal, find him on LinkedIn or email him at dan@seedlingmentors.org.

Transcript

Introduction to Nonprofit Hiring

Speaker 1 0:03

Hey , nonprofit friends , welcome to the Spring Forward podcast , where we talk about all things nonprofit , from board discord to grant writing and strategic planning tips . If you're an executive director , nonprofit board member or just someone heavily involved in the nonprofit sector , then this is the podcast for you . Let's spring forward into excellence , and this is the podcast for you . Let's spring forward into excellence . Welcome , welcome everyone to another episode of the Spring Forward podcast . I'm your host , Spring Richardson Perry , and today I am super excited to be talking to you guys about hiring and retention in the nonprofit sector . This is going to be a good one , because we are always talking about employee engagement or looking for ways to get good talent in the nonprofit sector , and I have back with us today once again Dan Leal , who has been in the nonprofit world since 2002 . He is currently the CEO of Seedling and he is just a wonderful , wonderful person to get to talk to about the nonprofit sector and all the things going on . So I'm excited to talk to you today , Dan . How are you ?

Speaker 2 1:19

I am really , really great and I'm just excited to talk about one of my favorite topics with you today .

Speaker 1 1:33

So this is going to be fun , this is going to be awesome . I want to start with talking about just talent in general . Right , because in the nonprofit sector it always seems like it's a little harder to attract good talent because of the salary ranges , right , and so in the private sector , if I was a development director , which would be the equivalent of a salesperson , I would be making maybe six figures , depending on where I was at , what company I was in . Right , I would be expected to make that much . But in the nonprofit sector I was looking today actually at what a development director makes . The US national average is anywhere from 80,000 to 120,000 . So if you're at a larger nonprofit , you may be on the higher side , which could be comparable to the private sector , but if you're at a smaller nonprofit , you can go to the private sector and make more money . So how do we attract this top talent who's going to be really good at what they do , but also compensate them fairly in the nonprofit world ?

Speaker 2 2:37

So twofold

Total Compensation Beyond Salary

Speaker 2 2:38

answer to that . Because it's both things right . So one is the compensation , so we'll talk about that first . Because it's both things right , so one is the compensation , so we'll talk about that first . And we have to educate our boards of directors . Even though the boards may not be looking at the specific salary of the staff other than certainly the executive director or CEO , the board sets the stage for sure with the executive director CEO compensation , the stage for sure with the executive director ceo compensation . Some boards do look at salary ranges and certainly the board is approving the overall budget for the organization .

Speaker 2 3:12

But as the ceo executive director , you've got to set that culture and that expectation with your board that we're going to compensate our staff . Well , obviously , behind that is the ability of the nonprofit to be sustainable in raising money . And you've got to be intentional on the fundraising side regarding or excuse me , on the benefit side , regarding the full package , when we're talking about compensation . So you're talking about the annual salary and constantly making efforts to do cost of living increases at minimum , if not bonuses , keeping your eye on local sector comparables but always wanting to be the best in those local sector comparables . And also that full package includes health insurance and what that looks like in providing a good health insurance .

Speaker 2 4:10

And then thirdly and I'm going to pause before we talk about culture , so I can take a breath and let you see if anything I said leads you to anything else . But I haven't forgotten about the culture , because that's a whole topic too . But also the retirement is very important because , because we want our employees as nonprofits to be set up for their future as well , nonprofit employees should not have to suffer in the future while they're doing great things today . And then , lastly , on the compensation side is mental health is a big deal , so you got to have a mental health package built in within your nonprofit too . So those are the four things , just purely on the money side , that I can think of . I may have missed some , but I'm going salary , I'm going raises or cost of living , I'm going health , I'm going retirement , and then back on the health . The fourth one would actually be the mental health tied in with that health package .

Speaker 1 5:10

Yeah , Total compensation package matters and especially when you have multiple offers that you're considering , you may take a lesser salary because you get these premium health benefits or you may take lesser health benefits because you get this larger salary that can cover that .

Speaker 1 5:31

And so I totally understand exactly what you're saying here and I really want to bring it back to the benefits themselves . Because , as an organization , right , you want to , like you said , you want to compensate your employees fairly , you want to set them up for success in the future , and so you have to be able to communicate that effectively to your board , because if we're not setting these salaries up in the beginning to where we can attract good talent but also sustain this for the future , then there's going to be a problem with the organization as a whole . And benefits , oh my gosh , like health insurance , is ridiculous . It's ridiculous , but it's one of those things that will make or break an offer for someone . So you have to be able to find a balance .

Speaker 1 6:31

And you know , I love when you said culture as well , because the culture of the organization matters , especially if I'm expecting someone to take a pay cut to come and work for me . Well , if they're taking a pay cut , they're coming to a toxic work environment , they don't have any benefits , they don't get a retirement plan , what's in it for them , and this is what I see in nonprofit organizations and their excuses . Well , we're a nonprofit , we can't afford that . You better figure it out , because you won't be anything if you don't have people to help you carry forward this mission .

Speaker 2 7:11

That's right . And you know what , when you have a nonprofit , one of the biggest mistakes that a nonprofit can make is operating that nonprofit from a position of let's not lose , instead of operating the nonprofit from a standpoint of let's win . Because you know what ? We want our clients at our nonprofits to win . We want them to advance in their lives and no matter what service we provide , even if it's an emergency basic need , we want them to . You know , help them avoid , you know , homelessness , and that temporarily . But ultimately we want them to be economically self-sufficient . So shouldn't our nonprofits operate the same way ? Instead of a losing mindset , let's move towards a winning mindset , not that we're less , than because that actually feeds into the culture .

Speaker 1 8:09

I totally agree with you , and when we start thinking with a scarcity mindset , we start reacting in that way instead of being proactive in what we can do . So I completely agree with you here . So I'm thinking too , dan because this has a lot to

Winning Mindset vs Scarcity Thinking

Speaker 1 8:28

do with the executive leadership in the organization as well how they set these things up for success , how they frame this with their board . But when the board is looking to hire executive leadership right , how does that that work ?

Speaker 2 8:45

talk to me about that so there's got to be really advanced um work in terms of vetting the executive director , and it goes even deeper than the numbers . You know you can . You want your person to have experiences in your field of work , sure , but this person has to show evidence , when you're hiring the executive director , of having a track record of success in fundraising , being a good steward of funds and also taking good care of their people . And also taking good care of their people and also , like there's intangibles that you've got to figure out as a board when you're interviewing the executive director . That will feed into a good culture .

Speaker 2 9:49

Really digging deep into how does this nonprofit CEO handle stress themselves , what are the ways that they handle it when things are going not so well , because there's a lot of things that can happen that can create that . How do you respond to crisis ? But you've got to really dig deep . When you're using a recruiting firm , you've got to make sure that they're digging deep and doing screening and asking some of these intangible questions , because it's not always in the numbers . People can dress up their resume real nice and they can look good from . You know , coming from a big organization that had this many millions of dollars and all that , but that doesn't mean that that doesn't mean they did a great job , nor does it mean that they did a good job taking care of their people . So you've got to dig way deep behind the numbers and look at the intangibles of leadership , because leadership is about deeper things than just numbers .

Speaker 1 10:40

Absolutely . And I'm laughing over here when you said a larger organization with big numbers because , like you said , they could not have anything to do with that . Right , they just had a great team and , for whatever reason you know , they they couldn't find their footing or whatever happened in that role , that they weren't successful . But it looks like they were successful because you have this large organization . That's pretty much a well-oiled machine .

Speaker 1 11:10

And so it's going to be very different when you're stepping into a role of a smaller nonprofit . That requires you to really roll up your sleeves and get dirty and get not not dirty like doing dirty stuff , but like you know what I mean . Get to the front line , work with some of your employees as well , and this is why I'm a huge fan of behavioral interviews because , I want to know what is it ?

Speaker 1 11:43

how would you react in this situation ? How have you reacted in this situation in the past ? If you haven't encountered this type of situation , what are your thoughts on handling that ? And that's going to tell you a lot about the intangibles that you're looking for within that organization , and I think that being able to assess that appropriately is going to give you a much more well-rounded person and give you what you're looking for in terms of the culture , building out the culture of your organization . I know I'm going deep . This is all in .

Speaker 2 12:17

I love it , I love it , I love it . You got to find the substance of the person . I mean , some people are also real good at showing style , like they might look good present well . What I mean by look good present , well , you know , but then maybe they don't really have substance . I mean , we all have to have a little bit of style to you know , advance and all that .

Speaker 2 12:39

But when you're doing interviews and when you're vetting these executive leaders and your leadership team , like you're , especially like your direct reports to your senior leader , you've got to understand the substance of the person . And you know one would assume , ok , these people are all in nonprofits that we're hiring , so they've got substance right . You know what I mean . Like an outside person , they would say , oh , they all have it . But that's not necessarily true . Everybody in the world comes into the workplace and into their profession with stuff right , profession with stuff right . You've got to figure out how is that person , uh , matured in their stuff and how do they handle the stuff that comes out . Then it comes at them . You know what I mean . So it just because a person works in the nonprofit oh , you know , a board's like , oh , this is such a great person and I love my , my people . I'm not saying anything about anybody , but you've got to really check the heart and the emotional intelligence and the maturity of those hires , all of them , but especially at the executive and the director report levels .

Speaker 1 13:54

I love how you said that , dan . Right , you said your board says , oh , I love this person and or our personal relationship with them , whatever that may be into thinking , oh , this is a great person , they'll do great in this role . Well , what evidence is there that shows that they'll actually perform well in this role ? What are the qualifications for this role ? What are some of the things that they need to do , some of the role responsibilities , and what evidence have they shown that they can actually do these things successfully in this role ?

Speaker 2 14:45

Right , and you know , in the nonprofit world today we need to hire people that have some business intelligence to them , to them . But

Hiring Executive Leadership

Speaker 2 15:04

obviously it's also something that they have to have a background in or around a field or similar type of field because of work within the sector . Right , because maybe not everybody is great with crisis services like domestic violence or child abuse , domestic violence or child abuse . Right , maybe not everybody is great in emergency assistance provision .

Speaker 2 15:26

Um , now , it doesn't mean nobody , not , I mean somebody can't cross over . But you got to look at some intangibles to see if they can cross over , if they've been in one section of the nonprofit sector to another . You know , the nonprofit executive has to have passion for the topic or they have no business applying . Certainly that's a thing that the board has to check their passion for the topic . But then there's some intangibles that also will tell you are they going to be good for this particular field or they don't have to know everything about it . They never maybe did it before , but they have to come in with a humility , a willingness to learn , but also some intangibles that tells me that they're going to be able to handle it .

Speaker 1 16:13

Yeah , yeah , I agree , and I'm also thinking about when you say this right , this is going to .

Speaker 1 16:20

You're going to need a diverse pool of people to choose from , and I start thinking about the DEI initiatives that have been scaled back on the federal level . And so I'm thinking and I don't want to get political with this , because this is not about politics , this is about being able to find the right candidate . And so how does your nonprofit , how can you sort of weave in diversity , equity , inclusion , without saying this is a DEI initiative , but we're looking for people who have a diverse set of skills ? We're not discriminating against anyone who maybe has a disability or is a neurodiverse individual and or or has a you know , a sexual preference that is different from mine . How do we incorporate this without saying it's DEI , but giving everyone a fair shot at if they have the skills , the qualifications and those intangibles that will fit well into the culture , into us carrying out the mission ? You know how do we include that without including it . You know what I ?

Speaker 2 17:35

mean I love this question and I love the way that you asked it . You did such a great job asking it , because this is how I , this is how I I think , and quite honestly , let me just say I had a pastor one time that used this phrase , and I keep using it over and over again , and this phrase is that the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart , and so when you're talking about having a workplace that's welcoming and is seeking diversity , that's a heart issue . That's not an issue that you can . Well , somebody might argue with me , but at least my personal feelings about this is I can't .

Speaker 2 18:17

I mean you need to educate , right , but just by putting the words there doesn't mean that you're going , that your heart is there either . Okay , words are words unless you back it up . I've chosen to live my life , especially in the workplace , in trying to show my heart in this matter , and I don't even I've never cared about I mean I care about words because words are important , but I mean I'm not , it's not , that's not the first thing Like , the first thing is the heart , and so it's got to be the heartbeat of your organization . The board and the executive director set that heart .

Speaker 2 18:56

So when you're talking about having a diverse staff , it's got to be at the top of your heart and the top of your mind to be seeking a diverse work pool , because when you have diversity in your board and in your hiring it makes your organization richer . You know , one challenge that I want to be transparent of that I've had in my organization one side is a good thing is that we hardly have turnover . So like I haven't had a higher in , you know , like a full-time hire in like 18 months even though we have 15 full-time staff members because everybody wants to stay . We've been very fortunate . So every time we make a hire because there's so few in a 15 full-time we have to have our eyes on that lens .

Speaker 2 19:42

But it's hard when you're looking to make progress when you don't have a lot of hiring . That just naturally happens . But it's got to be at the top of your mind and top of your heart to do that . And people know people want authentic people , will see through the heart and I think that's that's just how you have to be you . You have to show it and that overcomes any word subtractions or , quite honestly , unfelt word additions that anybody has .

Speaker 1 20:18

Yeah , I love this because , you know , again , there's so much right now around DEI initiatives and , like you said , you can say anything , but how are we actually backing this up , how are we weaving this into the culture , the environment of our organization ? And that's why , you know , I firmly believe that , whether or not you allow it , you know .

Speaker 1 20:46

on , a what do we call it on a law like , lawfully or not ? We value everyone's opinions , we value everyone's perspectives , we value different cultures and different , just just differences among us that can help us to really serve the community that we're set up , that we set out to serve . And so I love , I just love , the way that you framed that because , um , you know it makes a difference in terms of how you're able to serve your community .

Speaker 1 21:24

Um , because if you

Heart-Centered Diversity Approaches

Speaker 1 21:25

have all of the same thought process , you know , what I mean , all of the same cultural backgrounds then you're going to be missing something , because there are experiences that others have had that maybe this group of people have not , and those experiences that they haven't had could be something very beneficial to the community in terms of how you serve them .

Speaker 2 21:47

Right . One more thing , and it kind of is a combination with the question you asked earlier about the benefits piece . I'm going to say that there are diverse , there are diverse groups that are in high , high , high demand in the nonprofit sector . That because we're because we as nonprofits should be hungry for having a diverse workforce , the salary demand is higher . So , for example yeah , you know what I'm talking about Spring , because people are in high demand , yes , it goes back . So if I want to intentionally hire someone who's maybe they're bilingual , well , you better pay for that .

Speaker 2 22:29

Or if I want to hire a person who's Black or African American , that has been in the sector and has great talent , which they you know , then you better be able to hire for it , because this person is in demand .

Speaker 1 22:42

Salary-wise , and even people who have trauma-informed experiences . They have those certifications in trauma informed care that is in high demand in the nonprofit sector .

Speaker 2 22:59

Right .

Speaker 1 23:00

And so , yeah , you better be able to put your money where your mouth is .

Speaker 2 23:04

I saw your face when I brought it up , because you know what I'm , you know what I'm talking about . Because you know what I'm talking about . And so if you want to be diverse , you better be ready to pay for it , because people are in high demand right now .

Speaker 1 23:18

So tell me this , dan what are some ways that the hiring committee can assess a candidate's alignment with the organization's mission and values , just beyond a traditional interview Like ? What are some ways that they can find that alignment ?

Speaker 2 23:41

Well , you know , every organization should have core values . I mean I would hope that they're written and I really encourage nonprofits to have those value statements that their employees put together . So you've got a mission , you have a vision , but also you should have value statements and , of course , as a nonprofit executive and leadership team , you should be backing those values up and make sure they shine . So when you ask questions regarding the interview , you want to make sure that this person's values align with yours in that regard , which also feeds into the culture . You just really got to figure out where your nonprofit sits in terms of that culture .

Speaker 2 24:28

Like a little subtle thing like , for example , you know , running a mentoring organization , I want to make sure my people are relationship-driven and that they are willing to dig a little bit deep , at least , you know , because that fits with the culture . And when you're a mentor , that doesn't mean , when I say that I want them to be relationship-driven , that they're all extreme extroverts or extroverts . No , you can still be relationship driven and be an introvert , Absolutely , you know . But you've got to find out that . So that's an example of my nonprofit , you know , with , like one of my values , relationship driven . I want to figure out if this person fits in our culture from a relationship driven standpoint .

Speaker 1 25:11

But I find introverts to be the best relationship builders because they're so , they're not going to just expend their energy on just anything Right , so they're going to make sure , okay , if I'm building a relationship with this person , I know this is not my thing , so I'm going to make sure it works , and so , yeah , they tend to be the best relationship builders in my experience .

Speaker 2 25:43

I love that . That is so , so true and also better listeners than some of us extroverts .

Speaker 1 25:45

Exactly . So let's talk about this too , because you know , ai is on the rise and I have seen I've seen so many people on LinkedIn as they were looking to hire . They're saying , oh , I'm tired of reading these AI resumes , but what can ? How can you leverage technology to help you make these hires Right ? Because , yes , we know AI is on the rise , we know people are going to use it . Um , but how can we use it to our benefit

Technology in Hiring Practices

Speaker 1 26:17

as we're looking to hire people ?

Speaker 2 26:20

let me just say this uh and this isn't really what you're asking , but I just have to say it when we're talking about diversity in our non-profits , now we're all learning . I mean , I don't care what age you are . If you're , you know about your year in your seventies and you're on the verge of retirement , or you're 23 , 25, . We're all learning about AI .

Speaker 2 26:42

But I will say , in our hiring and in our we have to have diversity from an age standpoint as well when you hire people because the younger generation is more tuned in flexible , knowledgeable , innovative in some in those regards to where we are looking at incorporating technology . Having that talent from a skill standpoint and sometimes younger , you know more with the people in this regard is helpful to your nonprofit to have that kind of diversity . Now , in using AI in hiring , I don't want to be able to tell if that employee put together their resume or they're certainly not their cover letter using AI . I don't want to know that they did , because it means it's authentic Right Now . If they did and it tells and I'm hiring and I'm going , oh my gosh , they used AI , they're out .

Speaker 2 27:49

But if they did use AI and I can't tell .

Speaker 1 27:51

I'm going .

Speaker 2 27:51

Oh my gosh they used AI , they're out . But if they did use AI and I can't- tell .

Speaker 2 27:54

I'm like , oh , this is really good . I mean , this is good , I didn't even know . Then it's a better letter . So as far as on the end of the person that's putting themselves forth as the hire , I'm not going to want to know , Maybe it'll strengthen their ability . Now , as the receiver , my nonprofit's not big enough to screen for that sort of thing , but I would say that using AI in some basic screening is probably okay . But I'm a hands-on person and I like I mean these positions are so important that any higher level screening I'm going to want to do it myself .

Speaker 1 28:59

Yeah , I agree , because you want to know what's coming through the hiring piece at all unless it's for the executive leadership or at least some well-defined like a well-defined job description , well-defined intangibles that you're looking for and some well thought out interview questions for this executive leadership position . But I totally agree with you when you say you know , you want to put your hands on it , you want to put your eyes on it , you want to see who's coming to your team because ultimately , as executive leadership in a nonprofit , they're going to report to you at some point . You know , when we're thinking about private , private businesses , you may not necessarily have interactions often with frontline people when you're at executive leadership , all the way at the top , but in the nonprofit world everybody's working towards one mission , one goal and at some point everybody's going to sit at the table and you guys are going to come together and say , okay , what do we need to do differently , what's working , what's not working and how can we move this forward . And in order to do that , you have to know who's on your team . You have to know their work style and what . You know what they're supposed to be doing , what they have done and what they still need to do and you need to have some sort of relationship with this person .

Speaker 1 30:24

So it's super important , like you said , that the executive leadership , the executive director or whoever , even the executive team if there's an executive team in the nonprofit itself , if it's large enough for that they need to be in on the hiring , they need to know who's coming in so that all of this , so that the organization thrives , because if you don't know who , you're't know who you're hiring , who's coming in , what's going on , then it's gonna it's gonna be a problem . Right , I've seen it . I've seen people be hands off . Somebody comes in and it just doesn't work and it's more detriment to the organization . Um , and the organization has to play cleanup , you know .

Speaker 1 31:13

So , everything , everything that happens , um , in smaller nonprofits , aside from like a United way or like the big habitat for humanity or something like that , but an organization like seedling right , if you had a this horrible employee who came in who's just going out building relationships on lies , that's going to reflect badly on your organization and then you have to play cleanup from that right and you have to try to figure out okay , now what am I going to do ? How am I going to rectify this ? You know this , they could have severed relationships with funders that could have been major donors that you need to go back and try to , you know , make relationships . So I'm always thinking about those things and how to be super careful and super cautious , but also welcoming everyone to at least , you know , feel like they have an opportunity to apply and an opportunity at a shot at it if they have the qualifications . So it's that , that balance . I know .

Speaker 2 32:20

That's why I think the initial maybe okay for your minimum qualifications , but , um , just make sure you're real . You're real on target about what your minimum qualifications are and what they aren't , because you don't want this tool to screen out somebody that might be good . So your non-negotiables are that's fine on the AI standpoint to screen them out , but just make sure you know what they are and what they aren't in terms of your minimum qualifications .

Speaker 1 32:54

Yeah , I'm not big on I am not big on automated screening tools when it comes to hiring a resume . It's like I much prefer . Let me put my eyes on it , let me read it myself . For let me put my eyes on it , let me read it myself , let me see for a fact , because these resume tools are going to be looking for specific words and they could very well describe , they could very well describe their experience not using any of those words , and those experiences could be way better than what the automated system can detect .

Speaker 2 33:27

So yeah , yeah , and you know , in the AI thing , this is a test of our discernment , you know , in our wisdom , you know , and because the world will tell you , oh well , you're not with it . If you don't use AI and at least 80% of your you know workflows or whatever , then you're just not with it and you should be kind of embarrassed . No , it's not , that's , that's the wrong pressure you got to . We got to use wisdom and discernment , to use it where , where it really really is needed and helpful , and understand where it's not .

Speaker 1 33:59

Absolutely . I agree , I agree 1000% . Um , this is great , dan . This is amazing . I'm so excited . Thank you so much for having this conversation with me .

Speaker 1 34:08

I just , I want to be able to give , give nonprofit organizations , the leaders , the hiring team , even the board just ideas about how they the CEO , to really drive the mission forward and to really have a team of people that's going to be effective in doing so . And so you have to make sure that you have the right person in place to be able to do that , and it's not just

Building Effective Teams

Speaker 1 34:42

because , oh , I really like this person , we have a great relationship , so they'll be great in leadership . Well , what , like you said , what intangibles do they have that's going to fit into this culture ? What actual evidence do we see that tells us that , yes , they can do some of the responsibilities of this role ? They've successfully done it in the past . We feel like they're going to do it here . And are they coachable ? Are we going to be able to really , you know , help them learn more about this specific organization , this role and what it takes to move forward in this organization ?

Speaker 2 35:23

we've got to take time with people , you know , and sadly , people , people do make judgments right off the bat in a lot of things like in the world where we are so quick , everything information is coming out so quick we're also quick to judge , and so I would challenge us all to make sure that in hiring that we take our time with it , do those person to person-person things and not be so quick to judge with your negotiables and just check it out . Look into the person a little , a lot more . Take the time to do so , because your people are your most precious resource .

Speaker 1 36:05

Absolutely , absolutely . And people in the nonprofit world . Like you said , we are a people sector . We are serving people . We are looking for the right people to help us serve those people . So we have to take time to really get to know people . So thank you so much , dan , appreciate you I've enjoyed it .

Speaker 2 36:28

It's a good time . Thank you for uh letting me talk about this and for your openness and great presentation of all the questions awesome , awesome , well , guys , thank you so much for tuning in today .

Speaker 1 36:41

Um dan , once again , if anyone wants to reach out to you , if they want to learn more about you or seedling or any of the other things that you have going on , how do they get in touch with ?

Speaker 2 36:50

you . Yeah , find me on LinkedIn . We can connect there , or just email me at danatseedlingmentorsorg .

Speaker 1 36:59

Awesome . Well , guys , there you have it . Thanks for tuning in and until next time , guys , on the Spring Forward podcast .