As the twinkling lights and jingle bells take over, Adam and Joe invite you to a heartfelt conversation that strips away the tinsel to reveal the foundational elements of Christmas. Picture this: a world where December 25th is just another winter day, devoid of the glitz we're so familiar with. We trace this holiday back to its early Christian roots, when celebrating one's birthday was unheard of in the community, and gift-giving wasn't the main event. A personal anecdote from Adam's stint directing a Christmas Concert unveils the holiday's performative layers, leaving us wondering about the authenticity of our modern festivities.
Navigating through history's hallowed hallways, we discover the intersection of Jewish feast days and Christian traditions, contemplating the influence of ancient observances like Shabbat and the Year of Jubilee on our present-day celebrations. The adventure continues as we scrutinize the perplexing origins of Christmas, dissecting theories that early Christians might have piggybacked on pagan festivals to promote the faith. This historical expedition is not just a pursuit of facts; it's a call to remember that these holidays were once about something more profound than what's on the sale rack.
In our candid discussion, the spotlight turns to the rampant commercialization of Christmas, challenging listeners to reconnect with the holiday's deeper message of unity and generosity. Joe's own genealogy comes under the microscope, humorously drawing lines to Jesus and European royalty—an anecdote that, while whimsical, underscores the holiday's drift from its intended spirit. We wrap up with a reflection on the life lessons from the retail trenches during the Christmas rush, advocating for empathy and respect in all seasons—yes, even when faced with "Karen" and "Kevin." Join us for an episode that's more than just talk; it's an invitation to rediscover the heart of Christmas.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/how-december-25-became-christmas/
https://allthatsinteresting.com/rosemary-hayne
As the twinkling lights and jingle bells take over, Adam and Joe invite you to a heartfelt conversation that strips away the tinsel to reveal the foundational elements of Christmas. Picture this: a world where December 25th is just another winter day, devoid of the glitz we're so familiar with. We trace this holiday back to its early Christian roots, when celebrating one's birthday was unheard of in the community, and gift-giving wasn't the main event. A personal anecdote from Adam's stint directing a Christmas Concert unveils the holiday's performative layers, leaving us wondering about the authenticity of our modern festivities.
Navigating through history's hallowed hallways, we discover the intersection of Jewish feast days and Christian traditions, contemplating the influence of ancient observances like Shabbat and the Year of Jubilee on our present-day celebrations. The adventure continues as we scrutinize the perplexing origins of Christmas, dissecting theories that early Christians might have piggybacked on pagan festivals to promote the faith. This historical expedition is not just a pursuit of facts; it's a call to remember that these holidays were once about something more profound than what's on the sale rack.
In our candid discussion, the spotlight turns to the rampant commercialization of Christmas, challenging listeners to reconnect with the holiday's deeper message of unity and generosity. Joe's own genealogy comes under the microscope, humorously drawing lines to Jesus and European royalty—an anecdote that, while whimsical, underscores the holiday's drift from its intended spirit. We wrap up with a reflection on the life lessons from the retail trenches during the Christmas rush, advocating for empathy and respect in all seasons—yes, even when faced with "Karen" and "Kevin." Join us for an episode that's more than just talk; it's an invitation to rediscover the heart of Christmas.
https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/how-december-25-became-christmas/
https://allthatsinteresting.com/rosemary-hayne
Today on the Idiots Guide, we are still talking about do you even Christmas, bro? Last week we talked about, or last episode we talked about Christmas, but we didn't talk about Christmas. We kind of talked about Christmas, we alluded to Christmas, talked about the 12 days of Christmas, the song, the actual 12 days of Christmas, and landed on some Santa Claus time, but we didn't really talk about Christmas, because there's a whole lot to talk about Christmas. And then we always talk about something else, which I talked about a food fight that landed someone with some assault charges because of a burrito bowl. So we'll talk about that in this episode.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, adam Richardson, aka the Profit Hacker, and I'm joined by the man in charge, mr Joe Haslam. Welcome to the Idiots Guide. ["the Idiots Guide"]. So last episode, what we decided to do was explore some of the history behind some of the, I would say, lore of Christmas season Things that are around Christmas, what created the entire event as we see it today, and come to find out really, like maybe one poem back in the 1800s that ruined it all, like not really, I don't think it necessarily ruined anything, but the goal behind it was to keep this thought process the same when it came to our Christmas season and, honestly, if I was to take a look at our Christmas season as it looks right now, I have a hard time with it.
Speaker 1:I mentioned in the last episode that I've done performing shows and all sorts of things and a few years ago I did one where I actually directed the performing show and I was working with a bunch of Christians at a church and the experience was so overwhelmingly bad because I was working with performing artists, that you know, like I don't know, you get to work with people and sometimes you get the worst of them. When particular moments of stress happened, I just didn't think that Christmas was when I would get the worst of some of these people and that really changed my heart about what the performance side of Christmas and the things that are put on the show, and I just kind of saw the sell out that happened. And so you know, going forward after that year, after that experience, when it comes to Christmas, if somebody asked me as a musician, somebody says, hey, I want you to be part of this, I want you to. You know, can you come and be part of our Christmas concert? I'm most often turning it down unless they allow me to do songs that are traditional. I won't do songs that are. You know, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Mariah Carey, you make a great song. It's a pain in the butt. I don't like it at all. I've heard it every way possible, even the hardcore version where the dude just growls the whole time and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:You know it doesn't matter Like I'm not into that. I'm into the actual reason Christmas exists in the first place, and that is the only reason. In my side Now, even my family, my wife and kids will not agree with me on that, and so I have to go along with a lot of this stuff. But if they ask my opinion, they have to watch out, because I will let them know. This has nothing to do with Christmas, you know.
Speaker 1:And so, that being said, why? Why does it have nothing to do with Christmas, guys? Because presents, because the gifts, because a Christmas tree, because lighting your house with so much electricity you could power Detroit, because you have to get the car with a bow on top of it, you have to make sure there is snow and all the other things that we create as expectations are fueled by something that has nothing to do with Christmas. And so here today, I'm gonna probably play the guy that says here's why, here's why this has nothing to do with Christmas, and I'm gonna keep saying that phrase and show you what Christmas has to do with.
Speaker 2:Well, and I think you know, we need to go back to the origins of Christmas. When did it first start?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So now I'm not sure what information you have, but I have some information here. Now the reason I say that is because history is very hard it is, and depending on which expert you look at, you may come up with different results. And so the information that I have for Christmas okay is it started out as a it wasn't anything official within the Christian community. This was, you know, after the death of Christ, after you know the apostles, the burgeoning Christian community in the Middle East and Rome and throughout all that area and so. But they wanted to celebrate, but there was no consistent day to celebrate that event.
Speaker 1:Well, and also in tradition, birthdays were not typically celebrated. They didn't have, you know, like, oh wow, timmy, it was your birthday. You know, like happy birthday, there was not a happy birthday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the idea that you know, and this was more I shouldn't say- a happy birthday. There wasn't birthday celebrations there wasn't birthday celebrations, but this was, to you know, something that they wanted to do. Now, this was a brand new religion. Now it had grown out of Judaism. This was a brand new religion. Now, one of the things that happened was in Judaism, there are a lot of feast days.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Now, anyone who is Catholic or some of the early Protestant churches have feast days as well. So Catholics, I think, have the most feast days. So they have the different saints that they have feast days for. That's not simply a Christian tradition that comes out of Judaism. So we know of Hanukkah. That's one of the feast days. There are feast days. Shabbat is a feast day, so one every seven days. There are a whole lot of them that come up, some that people don't even know about. There is one called the Festival of Jubilee, which is so every seven days. You have Shabbat. Once every seven years. There's another festival. I cannot remember the name of it, it's Jubilee.
Speaker 1:No, jubilee is yeah.
Speaker 2:Jubilee is seven years of seven years, so after 49 years, the 50th year is the year of Jubilee and you also have grand Jubilee, which is 490 years. Oh, there you go. Is that actually a seven? Times seven but is that a Judaism? Because that's not prescribed in the law.
Speaker 1:It's prophetic in the days of the minor prophets.
Speaker 2:OK.
Speaker 1:So it's talking about the era between, basically, when you could say biblically, god went dark for a period of time and then Jesus was born.
Speaker 2:Well, that's Christianity, not Judaism.
Speaker 1:You're right. You're right. Grand Jubilee, though based off of Judaism, is the tradition of Jubilee, and then the fulfillment of the prophecy is in Jesus.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, and so what I'm talking about is, in Jewish culture, judaism, ok, and so they have the year of Jubilee. It has not been celebrated. I think, when I looked it up, the last time it was celebrated was the year 680 or CE, and so it's been a long time since Jubilee has been celebrated. But it's actually prescribed in the law in Leviticus how is cool.
Speaker 1:Did you know that a chapter seven bankruptcy is based off that?
Speaker 2:And that's what I was about to say. You have to forgive all of your debts. You have to basically, everyone gets to start fresh. Yes, in the year of Jubilee Now in Christian culture we also have the year of Jubilee. So in the 50th year of a monarch's reign in England, it is the year of Jubilee. So those that were alive during the time Queen Elizabeth II had her Jubilee year Can't remember when it was, but when she had her 50th year of reign Jubilee. And so it's these ideas, that these festivals, these things that happen Traditionally it's a year long celebration.
Speaker 1:It is, yes.
Speaker 2:The entire year and your debts freed and your debts freed.
Speaker 1:Everyone's Oprah for a day.
Speaker 2:I think we need to bring back some of these traditions.
Speaker 2:But again. So the idea is this new Christian religion came about and the adherence to it didn't always celebrate the same things as the Jewish community. And so there was the council that was held when the vision that Peter had to open it to the Gentiles, and so they had to have a council, see what rules were they supposed to adhere to, and so they didn't have to adhere to all the same Jewish rituals that those that were born Jewish had to do, and so the Gentiles had kind of a lesser requirement for all those things. But the idea of these festivals, they still wanted to do them, and so they create a festival for Jesus' birth, but there was no consistent day. So the first time we have any record of someone talking about these kinds of events, let's see if we line up here. Ok, so this was in 200 CE. Did yours go back that far?
Speaker 1:Mine goes a little bit further back. Ok, so where does yours start? Mine's 130 to 200. So, iranias.
Speaker 2:I don't have that one.
Speaker 1:And Tertullian is 160 to 225, origin Alexandria 165 to 264. So that's just talking about their writing day or like when they lived. So during that time they wrote something, so it could be 200.
Speaker 2:So yeah, so this is Clement of Alexandria.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the earliest mention of Christmas is 200 C.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, and so he's talking about. There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth but also the day, and they say that it took place on the 28th year of Augustus and in the 25th day of the Egyptian month, pekan. Hopefully I'm pronouncing that right, pekan.
Speaker 1:I love Pekan, Pekan.
Speaker 2:Different spelling, may 20th in our calendar.
Speaker 1:Some call him Pekans okay.
Speaker 2:In treating of his passion with a very great accuracy. Some say that it took place on the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Faminoth, march 21st, and others on the 25th of Farmuthi, april 21st, and others say that on the 19th of Farmuthi, april 15th, the Savior suffered Further. Others say that he was born on the 24th or 25th of Farmuthi, april 20th or 21st, and so even back then this was 200 CE. They still were unsure of when exactly Jesus was born, was born when he suffered, but they were trying to find a consistent day for when that happened.
Speaker 2:The next record that I have is from chronograph 354. And so this was essentially a compendium of events that happened for the last maybe 500 years. This was written in AD 336. And so in part eight it's a list of the Roman consuls up to AD 354. And within that it writes at AD 1, I'm not gonna read the Latin, I'm just gonna read the translation. When these Caesar and Paolo were consuls, Lord Jesus Christ was born eight days before the Calens of January, december 25th, on the day of Venus, moon 15. And so by between 200 CE and 336 CE, they had somehow solidified that Jesus was born on December 25th.
Speaker 2:Okay and so it was 136 years later that this chronograph came out. It would be like what we would see today, as, like the farmer's almanac type thing it's, they're putting out the history. Now it's one person's view of it, but that's one of the earliest records that we have of this. Now there are some other records about it. On that I've got that say kind of why they thought that, but those are the actual records. So those are written by the individuals at that time that we have record of as to what was going on and the decisions that were being made. Now why they chose December 25th, that's up to a lot of interpretation. But and there are two main theories as to why they chose December 25th, at least according to most historians. But that was the thing. At in 200 CE, December 25th it wasn't even mentioned at all. And then by 336 CE they had defined it as December 25th.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And so that's how we got December 25th.
Speaker 1:Okay, now again History lesson over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, that was the boring part.
Speaker 1:So I'm gonna kind of see if I can amplify what you just said. Okay, and mine, I'm gonna go back to Turtullian and origin of Alexandria. So basically they would. So the Roman, roman celebrations of, like birth anniversaries, dismissing them as pagan practices. So that's why birthdays were really condemned. They were, they weren't. Birthdays were not something that were celebrated, because in Christian community that was viewed as a pagan practice.
Speaker 1:Well, it wasn't until Constantine came into rule and his conversion to Christianity where he legalized Christianity. So before that, like this is even before Christian persecutions in early 300 CE, and during that time he Christian persecution was the eight years of just slaughter of every Christian that was out there. And so what you have is this even the idea of a celebration that would, that would represent something as significant as Jesus' birth, was under the radar. So I'll throw this out there you had to stay under the radar, otherwise you would be executed. Okay, until Constantine, even after the reign I can't remember his name, his donatitis or dondianitis or something like that is when that the Christian persecution's initiated, but when that happened, like you have the argument that says well, I mean you have the solstice that comes into man and the pagan practices that come into the view of this and you talk about how they line up the Christmas tree is part of that pagan practice.
Speaker 1:And so you, you know there's a lot of linear stuff. You're like you just took it from the pagans. You're like the last thing a Christian wants to do is line up with a pagan practice when it comes to their, especially their, visibility of something as significant as the birth of Jesus. Why? Because it would point them out as not pagan and they would be executed. So your idea of it lining up in a pagan practice is debunked because you would die if you did. That was there was no way for that to even be possible.
Speaker 1:However, the reason why you see some of those is because a lot of the pagan practices revolve around solstice movement. So you have moons, like, you have the October or fall September stuff. You have. You know I don't want to elaborate too much because I don't want to sound I don't. Yeah, each their own. The point of it is that it was that is an argument that's out there that, hey, like, just like Easter is, this is the same thing. It's all lined up with pagan holidays. You're like, well, pagan holidays exist throughout the calendar year. Just because these exist too, doesn't mean we took them from pagan holidays, and more so, the pagan holidays would have lined up with the Christian usage of these dates because they landed on the solstice, and that's why.
Speaker 2:Right, they both independently chose the days of the solstice to do that. And again this goes back to there was no set day, so they were trying to figure out what day should we celebrate this on. You know what day is likely for that? Because I mean, even mathematically they couldn't figure it out. And so there's one.
Speaker 2:So a late fourth century sermon by St Augustine his explanation as to why the winter solstice was a fitting day to celebrate Christ's birth. So not saying that this was the day of his birth, it was just a fitting day to celebrate it. So he sends. Hence it was that he was born on the day which is the shortest in our earthly reckoning and, from subsequent days, begins to increase in length. He therefore was bent low and lifted us up, chose who bent low and lifted us up, chose the shortest day yet, the one whence light begins to increase. Okay, so this was late fourth century, so that's late 300s AD or CE. And so this was them explaining. This is why we should celebrate it on this day.
Speaker 2:There's another one I have here. He is early fourth century AD, and this is a treatise attributed to John Chrysostom, and he says our Lord too is born in the month of December, so, and associating Jesus' birth with the birthday of soul, which is the Roman son celebration. So this goes back to soul justice, or sorry, that's the early church linking Jesus to that. It's soul Invictus, the invincible sons, which is the Roman festival, associating Jesus' birth with the birthday of soul. Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December, so not saying that we're adopting this, but yeah, our God was born in December.
Speaker 2:Yeah not because it's because of this, but coincidentally, or also the eighth day before the calendar of January. But they, the pagans, call it the birthday of the unconquered, who indeed is so unconquered as our Lord. Or if they say that it's the birthday of the son, we may say he is the son of justice, which then goes into soul justice, and so there are a lot of these things that was independently developed. Yes, a lot of the traditions were similar. These are festivals, these are times of honor and remembrance.
Speaker 1:Do you play music when you have fun? Do you guys eat food? Oh, this is common practice, so then it doesn't matter. You're like oh well, that's a Christian thing, we don't eat ever. When we're like the kind of parties we have, it's not a party. You say party and what do you think I'm gonna think? I want to have entertainment, I wanna have laughter, I wanna have joy, I wanna break bread. I want to have music. All of this stuff is just a. It's indicative of a celebration, right.
Speaker 2:And so there's a lot of talk about. We even talked in our last one about how some of the Sederneilia traditions became part of Advent. Yeah, there are traditions that follow.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We sometimes adopt these things, sometimes we don't, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the idea of Christmas came directly from. As we have probably all grown up learning from pagan holidays, they developed around the same time. Yes, they have a lot of similarities. Yes, but it doesn't mean that they were adopted from those. Did some of those traditions join in in later centuries? Yes, but the idea of Christmas, as it originally established, was a Christian holiday.
Speaker 1:To point out is it's Basically, as far as scholars can tell, you know, up to Mid-200s Christmas was not celebrated, at least not traditionally. So it wasn't a festival, it wasn't anything, didn't have any significance to it. The first really development of a standard celebration was actually Easter, easter being because Christ's death. It's great running that and Oddly enough it lands on a pagan season as well. No kidding, but we just finished talking about that. But you have this, you know this suggestion scripturally reinterpretation of Passover, talking about Jesus passion. The observance Could be implied in 1 Corinthians 5, 7 through 8. Our I'm gonna mess up this word partial lamb Christ has been sacrificed. Therefore, let us celebrate the festival Distinctively. A Christian feast by mid 2nd century was very well known as as that. So you're talking what? A 2nd century? That's 150. Yeah, ce. Okay, there's an apocryphal.
Speaker 1:Apocryphal means a text that is not included in the biblical canon. There are texts out there. This one's called the epistle to the apostles has Jesus instruct his disciples to make Commemoration of his death. That is the Passover. We do have texts in the Bible that say those sorts of things, but this is just kind of referencing other extra texts that aren't included in what we, you know what our Culture and our society considers the biblical canon or canon, what, what is in the Bible. It doesn't mean that we can't take from those things and learn from them. We just don't take them as the what, what we consider to be gods. You know God's word in, you know in the Bible, but basically because of that, you know you have the Jesus ministry.
Speaker 1:Miracles met, passion and resurrection were often of most interests to first and early 2nd century CE Christian writers. But Over time the the origins of this, so it became this why was Jesus so significant? What? What does this significance have to do with, let's say, the Bible, and and and and this. You know this significance. Do this in remembrance of him. You know him being crucified. What was the significance of that? Him doing all of the things the Bible teaches about him doing? What is all the significance?
Speaker 1:Up to and including, all the sudden there's another apocryphal writing called the infancy of God, infancy, gospel of Thomas. So Thomas basically in this one is speaking about Jesus birth and Goes as far as to say like, oh, you also have the proto gospel of James and these texts kind of give this Jesus grandparents names and all this kind of stuff. You're like okay, all right, this is the reason why you're not in the Bible, that you just got carried away All right Details of his education, but not a date of birth. That it just isn't there. Why? Because birthdays weren't important, they were considered pagan. So finally, 200 CE, a Christian teacher in Egypt makes reference to the date Jesus was born, according to Clement of Alexandria. So Clement doesn't mention December 25th at all.
Speaker 2:No, and and that's the quote that I read earlier and even he is looking at it Not just at the birthday, he is looking at it as Everything. So the day that the Savior suffered that's the quote from his words there the treating of his passion with very great accuracy. It's it's not just looking at his day of birth, but it's looking at more on the events of Jesus's life that they were trying to Identify, not necessarily just his birth.
Speaker 1:So there is a I'm gonna throw this. This is kind of a theory, I would say it's. It's not a theory, it is. It is talked to by biblical scholars going way back. You talk about the pagan feast, soul and Victus, unconquered son, on December 25th or Christmas. The argument is really a spin-off of the you know pagan, pagan solar festivals, but according to that, basically early Christians deliberately chose these dates to encourage the spread of Christmas and Christianity throughout the Roman world.
Speaker 1:So you know, a lot of times when you want to make an impact into a certain society or culture, you do something called assimilating. Animals do this? Insects, do this? Humans do this really, really well, and it's used to. I'm sorry to say it. It's a form of manipulation that you don't have to have the right answer. Your, your answer doesn't need to be the truth. You just have to be the, be the stronger voice, be the loudest thing in the room, and you will. You know, you come alongside until you can get noisier, and that's that's essentially what that argument comes to. Is says okay, then we're gonna line up with this in this sense.
Speaker 1:However, there is theologians, and this is historically it's. It's been, it's been researched over and over. But Let me see here I got to get to where it talks about this. So you have Constantine converted to Christianity, christianity and basically, at that point, adapting and Christianizing pagan festivals, because the Roman Empire, up to that point was, you know, largely pagan rituals, which is Hellenistic. But then you, you know, now you move into an era where you know, essentially, the emperor says nope, gone are the days where this is what it is, and he wins wars and battles because of the Cairo that he puts on the shields of his warriors when they go to war, and so he is a firm believer in Christianity. At this point he's like God is on my side, okay, so, um, let me see here in, there is, there is a theory, and it's.
Speaker 1:It talks about this during Turtullian of Carthage, which is, remember, around 200 CE. It talks about the calculation reported that the 14th of Nisan, or Nisan nisan it's not Nissan, but Nisan the day of the crucifixion, according to the Gospel of John in the year Jesus died, was equivalent to March 25th in the Roman solar calendar. Okay, march 25th is, of course, nine months Before December 25th. It was later recognized as the feast of the annunciation, or the commemoration of Jesus conception. Okay, I'm digging into deep Catholicism at this point. However, the math makes sense. That's.
Speaker 1:That's really where I'm gonna stand with this is. You know, I've studied theology, I went to Bible school and this. This is the kind of stuff where I'm like, yeah, okay, I get. I get where they're coming from with this. Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later. Jesus was born on December 25th. So if, if, the idea and they'll go back. I I don't know why, but I think I think it actually mentions this but and on the Trinity, it's CE 399 to 419, he writes this is Augustine Alexander, I think it's. What is it?
Speaker 2:Remember, guys, we're idiots.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So we're idiots, leading idiots. We're looking this stuff up, we're researching it because it's not always easily available, and so we try to do the research.
Speaker 1:We try to look at everything to give you as much information as possible and this comes from a historian who has been the head of three you know theological seminaries and colleges, ivy League colleges, and you know so this is a paper I'm stealing and I'll put his link on. On this I'm not. I'm not taking credit for this research. You know this is phenomenal.
Speaker 1:But this idea appears in an anonymous Christian treaties titled on Solstices and equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth century North Africa. The treaty states therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth day of the Callens of April, in the month of March, march 25th, which is the day of the Passion of the Lord and of his conception, for on this day he was conceived, on the same he suffered. Based on this, the treaty's dates Jesus birth to be the winter solstice solstice. Augustine 2 was familiar with the association on In on the Trinity, see 399 to 3 or to 419, he writes. For he, jesus is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day he suffered. So the womb of the Virgin in which he was conceived, where no one of Mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December 25th.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now all these things, All these theologians, everyone in the historical time frame, we have records of people talking about you know calculations, so I'm gonna throw a little bit of water onto the Ideas that are coming across here now, not the the research that's done, because this is what people were thinking back then right.
Speaker 2:Another theologian, our theology professor Susan roll, is where this one comes from. She questions whether ordinary Christians in the third and fourth centuries, which is the time when this is being developed, we're much interested in calculations with symbolic numbers. How much really were people looking at these calculations, these numbers to Create these?
Speaker 1:traditions, ordinary Christians or theologians, because that is a difference.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's exactly it. Ordinary Christians, the theologians, were definitely doing this, but how did Christmas stick? It's very unlikely that it's these calculations, these Numbers that these theologians were coming up with. Right, actually did it, and what otherwise?
Speaker 1:that? That's why the council of tours had to even occur. Was there like how do we enforce this, you know? Like you wouldn't even have to consider it without that?
Speaker 2:and Gerard Rue worst hopefully I'm pronouncing it right believe another Theologian believes it is unlikely that the feasts emerged on the basis of calculations by exegetes and theologians. So the researchers arguing for a fees to take root in a community, more is needed than a sophisticated calculation or computation. Right, and so the idea is yeah, all these guys were doing all these numbers, but realistically, on the graph, the grassroots level of Christians, it was festivals, you're right.
Speaker 1:I think the the hard part about that is we don't have, you know, the Facebook profile folder that showed the festival, right. We don't have, like we don't even have tablets that they carved the images into. Like we've got nothing. We got a pot that's broken with the old grain in it, like that's, that's as far as we can take that. So all we can do is take from these. I like I'm gonna push back and and because it to me, I, I don't want that person to minimize the only data that we can use and to try to add some Context to it by saying now, truly, you think that the mathematicians, you know, have all the know-how about what, culturally, was going on during that time? I mean, get their mathematicians.
Speaker 2:They probably don't even know the slang you know now I am gonna say here If you don't think something like this can really happen, I'm going to explain to you the history of Thanksgiving. Okay, because this is a phone. I think we've talked a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, just just a little bit. Stand back, just a little bit of how Thanksgiving came to be on the fourth Thursday of November. Okay, now that only happened, just so everyone knows. It only became the fourth Thursday of November in 1942, so it hasn't even been a hundred years and yet Thanksgiving and the presidential order of Thanksgiving goes back to the founding of the United States. So for 200, 150 years the idea of Thanksgiving was not set. It took over 150 years for our modern nation to come up with a definitive Thanksgiving day.
Speaker 1:Yeah okay.
Speaker 2:So it started out. It was set by the president every year. So the president would say this year, this is the day Thanksgiving is going to be. So it was in 1795, february 19th. In 1812 it was November 25th. Hey, so we're getting closer. In 1815. It was held on two different days. Between 1799 and 1812, there was no Thanksgiving day and it stopped because of Thomas Jefferson, who didn't feel like Thanksgiving was an appropriate day. We should not be celebrating it, and so he completely paused it and following presidents also didn't do anything. I can't remember which president was in 1812 that reinstituted on November 25th. In 1816 it was on November 14th and November 28th.
Speaker 1:I did two thing, two turkeys this year.
Speaker 2:I will never do that again in 1846 it was the last day of November every year, or it was petitioned to be the last day of every year. And then, finally, that same person I wish I had written down her name. You can look it up. I Want to say the middle name was Josephine. I know it was weird spelling, but she petitioned for almost 20 years to have a set day for Thanksgiving and finally Lincoln established it as a set day every year and so it was going to be the final Thursday in November, starting in 1863, and then in 1939, franklin Delano Roosevelt decided I don't want it to be on that day, so he said the fourth Thursday of every month, but he wanted it to be the last Thursday of every month, which is generally the fourth, except in fifth, five week November's, when then it would be the fifth Thursday in November, when it was celebrated, and Then finally, by an act of Congress, it was established to be the fourth Thursday of November in 1942, and From then on it is the fourth Thursday, and that was a compromise in order to end in 1939 and 1940.
Speaker 2:Because it was Franklin Delano Roosevelt that did that, it was called Frank's giving because he had changed that, and so if you don't think that people can disagree on when a holiday should be celebrated. Look no further than our own Thanksgiving, and that has no calculations with it at all. That has no, you know, celebration on some kind of mathematical calculation for a deity. That is simply a day of Thanksgiving that has been annually celebrated since the beginning of our nation, except for a few pauses, and so it is hard as communities to break these down and have solidified days for it to happen. So that's why I generally deal with the theologians that say it's not a calculation that's gonna make people celebrate this.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm gonna throw some water back, all right. So you have not only these, you know, like Augustine who's talking about this on the Trinity, I think you know, and the Christian writer that is anonymous on the solstices and equinoxes. But then you have, you know, and before that you're still talking, you're coming off of the, the heels of Tritulean, of Carthage and the gospel and talking about those sorts of things. But then you move forward to in the East, you have the dates of Jesus' conception and death were linked. But instead of working from the 14th of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar, now the Easterners used the 14th of the first spring month, artemisius, in their local Greek calendar, april 6th to us. So April 6th is, of course, exactly nine months before January 6th. And guess what? To this day, orthodox Catholics, or Orthodox Christians, who practice traditional Christmas celebrations, are split between two sides. You have Eastern Orthodox and Western Orthodox. Western Orthodox is December 25th and Eastern Orthodox is still practiced January 6th.
Speaker 2:But we also have Epiphany, which is on January 6th, and that's Western Orthodox, though.
Speaker 1:So you have this practice where Eastern Christmas and to say this like it's Bishop, I'm gonna mess this up Epiphanius of Salamis writes that on April 6th the Lamb was shut up in the spotless womb of the Holy Virgin, he who spoke, or he who took away and takes away in perpetual sacrifice to sins of the world. Even today, the Armenian church even today, the Armenian church celebrates the Annunciation in early April. So the Annunciation is the conception of Jesus On the 7th, not the 6th, and Christmas on January 6th. So you have these practices of different orthodoxies still lining up. Now you're what, 12 days apart from each other, calendar wars. So I would push back against the math only in the sense that when you have leaders of the church now, don't get me wrong If it's a great concept that makes sense and you can see scripturally why it would be done that way, and you see other things of the fulfillment of prophecies that happened, you'd say this is absolutely in line with what God's word would teach, and so you would see that it naturally would fall according to the human nature of a child being in utero Trying to think what is the word?
Speaker 1:Guys, I'm still an idiot. Please just take it to that okay.
Speaker 1:Now, as everyone can see, I think, there's still a lot of unknowns about why the problem is is because it is that way Like we're still grasping at so much archeological evidence to try to figure this stuff out. And, yes, more and more things are going to come about. But I think the one thing that we all agree upon in the Christian area I think it's like 22,000 things or evidences, pieces of evidence, fulfillments of prophecy and writings from that era that have been found that's somewhere around that, it's like 20,000 or plus that all confirm the existence of Jesus. And so you have this. We're talking about Christmas, guys. It's not about presents. It's not about that, and I'm gonna get on my soapbox here in a second, but I'll let Joe give a final piece.
Speaker 2:Just remember, adam does come from a very strong Christian background, so those of you that are not Christian listening to this podcast, there's a lot that goes to it. I mean, the important thing is that we understand where it came from, and there's still a lot of confusion about the history of Christmas, but I think one thing that we can transition to right now is it wasn't always about the birthday. Most of history, when it comes to celebrating anything about Christ, was his death.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And that was what the celebration was, and I've got some interesting tidbits. I know we're getting close to the end of time on the podcast. I've got some interesting tidbits about why Christmas Day actually became the more important holiday, and it wasn't until it started transitioning to that around the 9th century AD. Before that it was very much about the other ones, and that was barely starting. They were still celebrating more of the epiphany, more of the advent, even much later into the 12th, 13th centuries. But Christmas Day was starting to become more and more of a big holiday for a very unusual reason, and it wasn't until the 17th century that Christmas Day actually became more solidified as the more important holiday over epiphany or any of the other, even Easter, as far as holidays to celebrate generally.
Speaker 2:And one of the reasons is because the royal families wanted to be, or the kings and queens of history. They wanted to be crowned on Christmas Day, and so Charlemagne well again, but remember this wasn't a major thing, but Charlemagne made sure that he was crowned on December 25th. Now the reason for this, now the reason I know this, is because I am descended from James the 5th of Scotland, so I do have a royal background to the kings of England. So because of James the 5th I'm also related to James the 1st and 6th. So the 6th of Scotland, the 1st of England, and so I do have a royal background here. But when I look at my genealogy there is in my genealogy, when I trace it back, I'm also related to the Norwegian royal family and the Danish royal family.
Speaker 1:They're all Vikings, they all invaded and raped and killed, and killed. So yeah, they're probably all related.
Speaker 2:I actually in my genealogy I can trace back. I've got kings and queens on my genealogy. But what happens is when I get back, far enough back, I actually have on my genealogical chart Jesus as my ancestor.
Speaker 1:That's special.
Speaker 2:Now the reason for this is because the kings and queens, or the royalty of England and Europe, they traced this is how they have the religious authority and they have the right to be royalty originally is because they said that they were descended from Jesus and so their genealogy. And so when you follow this patents of nobility and all of their genealogical charts they trace themselves back to Jesus. So when I look at my genealogical chart and it traces back, it goes back to Jesus. But this was why the royalty wanted it on Christmas Day, because it was traditionally the day of Jesus' birth and they were solidifying their view that they were direct descendants of Jesus. And so that's why they wanted to celebrate, or they wanted their coronations, on December 25th.
Speaker 2:And because of that and the pageantry, it slowly became more and more of an important deal for Christmas Day to be the holiday, as opposed to epiphany advent, any of the others. And it's because the royalty saw themselves as Jesus' direct descendants. So if I follow true to that, I am a descendant. This sounds so blasphemous, oh barf, but because I am a descendant of James the Fifth, it would say because he traced his lineage back to Jesus, I am a descendant of Jesus.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that leads me to a really good thing here, and I'm actually gonna tie a couple of things together here. First off is I'm gonna use the word entitlement. Okay, that is a very, very great example of entitlement right there, in the sense that, hey, in order for me to maintain a very, very what did they use back then? Like way back, they talk about it in Like era-specific shows. They talk about this, like they use the word like your super religious kind of thing, like you're very like zeal, lots of zeal in your religious you whip yourself because you're so sinful.
Speaker 1:I can't remember the word Zealots. No, it's not the zealot, it's something like oh man, it's gonna kill me. Because I'll remember it later, I'll be like it's this. If I remember it in my editing, I will add that word. There you go, but anyway, talking about that is like this the thought process is to elevate yourself in status so much so that you are separating yourself from the common people.
Speaker 1:Now, the problem with that is that the idea and concept of Christmas was not. It was about coming together, those entities, the elite and the poor and being able to break bread with one another, having these more fortunate give to the less fortunate in this process, and those are representations of why Santa exists in the beginning of this all. Now, why Christmas comes into play, so that we don't lose the whole thing about its purpose, let me say this I want to speak to the audience that may not believe in the Christian historical background of Christmas, and I speak this way only in the sense I'm not qualified to disqualify anything that you think. But I want to caution something it is. Christmas has only become a capitalist wet dream.
Speaker 2:I Can't disagree with you. I mean, black Friday is it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is specifically geared from After the day after Halloween you start at some. Some places they're starting before I've been moving. Halloween goes on clearance two days before Halloween and Christmas is there and you won't, you can't get enough. You're done with Christmas Before it even starts.
Speaker 1:I remember I worked at a bank In inside of a grocery store and it was time the time when the first frozen movie came out and they had that on play on repeat All day long inside the store, direct shot of what like. They had it on it like a surround sound system TV and so I had to listen. I will listen to that movie so many times. I have a seven-year-old so now I'm like I have like trigger, no, like it's. It's better. I've healed from those days.
Speaker 1:But but the reality is is like it. You're inundated with you know. You have to get the best of the best jewelry. You have to get the car for your special someone, you have to go get these things. I was talking to my son the other day and he's like he wants to go get a job and you know, in this outburst I'm talking to him like we're arguing, obviously she's 15. That's pretty much how we talk, you know. But he said I got this job because I wanted to make sure that I could buy you guys Christmas presents.
Speaker 1:And Like, did it in this, like man, this is what I'm doing for the sacrifice. I'm like, bro, like. Nowhere is there an ask for you to ever do that, ever, but it's. It's that indicator of like. Where in the world did you Individually get that kind of a demand placed in your heart, where you feel like this is the only way that I can express my love to my family? Yeah, and that, guys, is called greed. That is someone else Feeding you all of this information. It's marketing, it's advertising, it's commercials, it's in the radio, it's billboards, it's all over the place. It's in your tiktok, it's on YouTube, it's everywhere you look. You are exposed to somewhere in the ballpark of 15 million I exposures to content every single day now, just as a side note, that's what Adam's job is to teach people how to do that right.
Speaker 1:This is the reason why it's.
Speaker 1:Which is also why he knows what's going on it's but, but the sad thing about it is it is the loudest thing Mm-hmm. It has gotten to the point where nothing else you can't. You can't see or hear anything else. That's what's so sad about this. Is the tradition. Regardless of where you come from in a background. It is about people coming together and caring for one another, regardless of their status. And Now it goes to what are you going to get me? What do I? I deserve? I've been good. You know, been not your nice, I've been nice. You know.
Speaker 1:I hope, and you know this concept of you know, earning a good, a good gift by the end of the year from Santa Claus is All for you to spend money on Overpriced crap that will break in the first two hours of owning it. Yeah, and it's disgusting, it is robbed a 2000 year old tradition To make it something that well, not quite 2000 years. Pretty, yeah, pretty darn close, okay, but thinking about that tradition and going man, like how, how have we gone so far off? Of course that even even divorcing the idea about this being Jesus birthday and just saying Can we care for one another, can we hit pause and do that, and Everybody can say that is what humanity is. So, whether you believe or not, in, in, in the, the, the roots of what Christian comes or the Christian Christmas comes from, it doesn't matter. What matters is how we look at Christmas. I want to suggest get out of your own head, stop being Entitled. Nobody owes you anything. You didn't earn anything special. But go. Who doesn't get Christmas because they can't, because they can't afford it? Yeah, and say, man, I have a little bit and I can do something about that.
Speaker 1:And I remember years ago doing that with my family for years and years, going down to the viaducts underneath the freeway and doing a soup kitchen thing every Christmas morning. Yeah, and so I was like but I want to open presents, I want to wake up and do this. No, we did presents. I still Christmas existed in our house, but we did this first. Yeah, and that was, you know at the time, a really annoying tradition. But I look at it and I go like, man, I wish more and more people could get on board with something like that. Doesn't have to be that, but just to go, look out, look outside, look outside your world, your bubble, and see how you might be able to Bring joy of the season that you're in to someone else and that's it. If everyone did that well you know, there'd be no wars and I'd win a noble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fushas were precious but on the vein of entitlement, I told you I have to do this and I have like about 10 seconds to do it. So On September 5th to 2023. There was a lovely lady. She decided to visit a Chipotle in Ohio and some people might call it Chipotle. I don't know like if you don't know how to pronounce English words, then you can call it a Chipotle, but that's not an.
Speaker 2:English word what it's not an English word. I know I.
Speaker 1:Have to keep.
Speaker 2:The idiot's guide okay okay.
Speaker 1:So there was a lovely lady that was very irate. I'm not gonna say her name she's 39 year old lady, let's just call her Karen. How about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Karen shared this story with my children many times in the last couple of weeks.
Speaker 1:Karen decided that she was unsatisfied with her burrito bowl so much so Unsatisfied with her burrito bowl that she chucked it in the face of a 26 year old Chipotle employee. Well, that came back to haunt her and there was a judge that got involved in this. There were assault charges filed and she had to go stand before a judge. And what was really really great about this and convenient was actually really awesome. I love it. It's good justice. This, this is fitting. But the judge handed down a very, very unusual punishment. She was forced to work a fast food job for 60 days so that maybe, hopefully, some other person a Kevin or a Karen might come along and Hopefully she never has to experience what she did to somebody else.
Speaker 1:Guys, if we get so far past you know, past our own sanity, where we think it's appropriate to physically assault somebody with food, you're wrong. Yeah, it is never right. If, if you know, if I was in the store in that moment, I'd help clean up the the the employee's face and apologize and and be there to write a statement about how poorly that person treated another human being. Guys, I mean, this lady was screaming, throwing a temper tantrum. Your 39 years old, you're not five Act like you're 39 years old. I, I, it's just unbelievable and very, very offensive. And you know what I? I don't know. You know, like I hope and I pray, you know.
Speaker 1:I let me say this last night I went to something and there was some children running around and they were children, but they were. They were bulldozing through some folding chairs, knocking them over, and there were other parents and people Congregating. They're getting ready to sit down and these kids were plowing through everywhere. And I looked over at my son my son's has the same look on his face like I do, like, why aren't the parents doing something about this? And I go, that's gonna be the next burrito bull thrower, yeah, and I go like, and I hope not. I hope that not the case, but I can't help thinking that when I see that there is no lesson learned other than you can do whatever the hell you want and Think you can get away with it. I'm glad that this lady Thought that and didn't get away with it, yeah, no it.
Speaker 2:You know it's. It's my opinion that everyone needs to work a retail job at some point in their lives, because you learn how Hard it is and how difficult people can be. Yeah, it shows you how to Respect someone else, even in the worst situations, you know. Again, talking about the Christmas thing, it's just Learning to respect other people. Whether you're Christian or not, I mean it doesn't matter. We know a lot of non-Christians celebrate Christmas.
Speaker 2:Yes and it's a day to remember what our job is to the rest of humanity, and that's what this judge. I think you did a great job there. Yes, he's teaching this one not just jail time, but actually you need to learn something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, walk a mile in their shoes, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah learn how to respect other people, and I think that's a big lack in the world today. And so you know to to everyone this Christmas holiday Remember respect, learn respect and share that with others. I, I, it's so important, it's so vital. Otherwise we're just gonna get worse and worse, with these Karen's and Kevin's just.
Speaker 1:It's gonna get your name is Karen and Kevin. I know, I know I'm sorry, it happened.
Speaker 2:There are a lot of great Karen's in the world who just unfortunately got named Before Karen became a mean by word, not, it's just. I mean my name is Joe, I'm the average Joe. I oh shmo, joe, shmo, I am used to it. I think a lot of that.
Speaker 1:You know Karen's gonna turn that into like oh, in the average Joe, yeah, exactly so no, I do understand what it means to be a by word like that.
Speaker 2:So To the Karen's and Kevin's of the world, I do understand what it means to have that kind of a name, but you know it's, it's just how the world functions sometimes. But yeah, we don't want those stereotypical Kevin's and Karen, kevin's and Karen's in the world, and Christmas is an honored time to be able to learn that lesson.
Speaker 1:Yes, I, I Think that we, we, we covered a lot about Christmas, we covered a lot about its history, but I hope that what you can take away from our conversation here, and even how it lines up with you know, the second thing we talked about is it's about Looking toward the other and and putting yourself in their shoes and Serving, serving one another and caring about your neighbor instead of yourself. And you know it doesn't say don't take care of yourself, please do so, but yeah, also don't disregard your neighbor in the process of that. And so before we, before we go I have to, at least I Think what I want to do is continue on the entitlement lane, and maybe the next one we'll talk about is drivers.
Speaker 1:Yeah anyway, lives too short, so keep laughing and learning and remember idiots have way more fun. Check your shoes.