Thriving as a 4-Day Week Business with Myke Parrott | Episode 3

Myke Parrott is the Founder of I-Gem Associates – an ambitious and innovative recruitment company with expertise within the gaming and data science & engineering industries. He has over 15 years of recruitment experience and has always been passionate about developing people and creating great opportunities for them. Over 18 months ago, Myke’s company adopted a 4-day working week with positive results on both team performance and their happiness and emotional health. Join us as we discuss ‘why a 4-day week’ and the importance of confronting the boundaries of normality.  

In this episode:

[00:04:21] Implementing a Four-Day Work Week: Lessons Learned

[00:07:41] Team Sceptical About 4-Day Work Week: Perspective Shifts

[00:14:41] Productivity Boost: 4-day Workweek Yields Results

[00:22:10] The Challenge of a Four-Day Work Week

[00:25:12] Maximizing Time: Letting Go of Unnecessary Tasks

[00:30:58] Empowering Team Members with Flexible Work Schedules

[00:35:55] The Importance of Navigating Challenges as Leaders

More about our guest - Myke Parrott is CEO of i-Gem, the holding company for GameLogic and DataLogic. You can connect with him via:

www.linkedin.com/in/myke-parrott-58b5561b/  

https://www.instagram.com/mykep85  

https://twitter.com/mykep85  

Please like, subscribe or follow so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here:
 
 https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:

Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability Podcast, the podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks and challenges. Hope you enjoy the pod, looking forward to it. Listen on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:12]:

Myke, it is your Pod debut. Maybe like, take a minute, just to tell us how you got to this stage.

Myke Parrott [00:00:19]:

First time on a podcast? Yeah. My name's Myke. I set up my business seven years ago and COVID for us was a real change for lots of things. But up until that point, we'd been stumbling along, really, in markets that weren't particularly fruitful, kind of two to four to three, headcount wise. And then when COVID hit, we decided to split the business, move into the US market, go niche. So we got a gaming team and a data science team, and since then, we've experienced some pretty awesome growth. And I guess where we're at now, after making a move to a four day week about 18 months ago or so now, is just to kind of see how we can continue to improve and grow and be better as a company and as a team.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:07]:

Well, thanks for joining me here today, fellas. I feel like we're about to sing Bandaid. Do they know it's Christmas? Mike Parrot. Simon Ursell. How are you two young fellas?

Simon Ursell [00:01:18]:

Yeah, really good. Thanks, Rusty.

Myke Parrott [00:01:19]:

Good. How are you, Rusty?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:21]:

I'm good. I appreciate you asking. A little bit tired. Which probably leads on to our subject, isn't it, of the four day week? I guess I'll ask you both, just share, like, how did you get to the point of deciding it was going to be a four day week and maybe not a two or a three? Or should we go Mike first?

Myke Parrott [00:01:39]:

Yeah, I think Simon and I probably came to this implementation in pretty different ways for me. We made a lot of significant changes in 2021, including moving to the US market, and we had a real dilemma as to how we could get our consultants on the phone and more aligned to US hours. So we decided, actually, initially, the main reason we would transition would be to try and increase time with US businesses. Turned out it's been a nice byproduct which we'll explain and go in more detail later, but ultimately, initially we wanted to have that trade off whereby we'd get consultants working later and gave them Friday off to compensate for that. That's kind of how we came to it initially.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:27]:

Nice. Simon, you probably considered every single day of the week as an option, did you?

Simon Ursell [00:02:31]:

Yeah, we had a lot of conversations, so we were talking about it years ago as something we thought we might do. We didn't just look at the four day week, we were just looking at ways to try and make ourselves the best we could be, most productive we could be. So we looked at all sorts of different things. 40 weeks. Quite tempting, isn't it, having three days off is pretty cool, so we thought we got to have a bit of a crack at that. So we talked to the team about it, chucked around loads of ideas. I wanted to do Wednesdays off. Some of the team wanted to do Mondays off, most of the team wanted to do Fridays, so we came to the agreement. We would start with Fridays as a trial, then we moved to Wednesdays, then we'd try Mondays, see how we got on. But Fridays was by far the best, so that just shows the team know best, not me.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:22]:

And no one wanted a three day week.

Simon Ursell [00:03:26]:

Yeah, that's potentially the next logical step, isn't it? But bank holidays I don't hate finest, Mike, but bank holidays, when it is a three day week is pretty stressful. I don't think anybody enjoys a three day week at Target Range anyway, because you're trying to do five days work in four days, and then you got to do five days work in three days. That's pretty intense. And I think people actually don't appreciate having to do that level of work. That concentrated work. I think three days, certainly at the moment with where we are right now is quite intense. I'm not saying never, but right now we don't enjoy three days.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:04:00]:

Yeah, I was thinking a bit, Mike, about how you implemented it like you're kind of a fly by the seat of your pants kind of guy. I wonder if you just went, oh, by the way, everyone, just when you come in next Monday, we're only working four days. Or was there like, implementation? You spoke to your clients, you asked the staff, how did that work?

Myke Parrott [00:04:21]:

Well, certainly we didn't give as much consideration to it as I think Simon did with his business, for sure, saying that we did do some research. There's a guy called David Stone at MRL who a recruitment company, who's a pretty inspirational bloke actually, and they implemented a four day working week before anyone else I knew. And I'd heard him speak a couple of times about it as well, and I did speak to him about it, and obviously when I spoke to the team, they were pretty up for that transition. So we did have a few internal conversations. We didn't really think about potential consequences. We didn't really consider a lot of the a lot of the positive effects that that have actually come out of it since. And I think looking back, because it was it was 2021 when we did it before it was popular, we did implement it pretty quickly. I think it was a conversation with the team and within a couple of weeks, which coincided to a move to a new office, so it felt like a good time with new beginnings and that kind of thing, really, all of a sudden, yeah, it was in. And the team, I don't think now could go back even if we wanted to, but pretty quickly started seeing some awesome benefits of it. So it was a great move. There were, of course, some difficult things with making that move. And I know you referenced clients and that's something that probably if I were to do it again, we would have spoken to them a little bit more about, if I'm honest. But I think with us, it wasn't just a change to four days working, it was very much a change of onus whereby we wanted the team, we wanted the consultants to basically take a bit more responsibility. So being kind of very clear with what expectations were and you guys go and do it. So we found that although people don't come into the office on Friday quite often, if there is a client need, they might respond to emails on a Friday, but there's no expectation on that. That's down to them, really. So, yeah, it was a move that we made without really giving it much consideration, but it was a really positive step for the business. And looking back, I'm glad we did it and we've learned a lot, for sure.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:39]:

Nice. And no one wanted the fifth day. So when you asked the team, I'm assuming everyone went yay to four day.

Myke Parrott [00:06:46]:

Week at the time. Everybody did feedback since one of the team actually mentioned a few months ago that he would like to do work on a Friday, because as Simon alluded to earlier, I think that particular individual struggled to get five days working into four. So he wanted to do work on a Friday, but that's down to him and the onus is on him to deliver, really. But there's no expectation. And I'm usually in on a Friday because it's nice and quiet, but I don't ever see any of the team. I think once or twice they've popped in, that's it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:20]:

And just to clarify from both of you, it's same salary for four days. Obviously, that's a major concern.

Simon Ursell [00:07:26]:

Yeah, of course. Wouldn't really be much points if you just said, I'm taking 20% of your payoff. That's ridiculous.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:36]:

And then I guess, Simon, you said years ago, so you might sounds like you've taken a slightly different approach from an implementation.

Simon Ursell [00:07:41]:

Yeah, sure. I mean, I hung out with Mike before we made the decision. It was really interesting being around iGEM Mike's business before. We actually pushed the button because it gave a bit of reassurance that it was something that actually does work, different businesses doing different stuff, but fundamentally being there and seeing the sort of way they worked and the way they delivered on their targets in four days rather than five, gave quite a bit of reassurance. But, yeah, we talked to the team. We talked to the team about it. We had quite a lot of people it was our very best people, actually, that were saying, we don't want to do it, because they couldn't really see, given how hard they were working and how much they were getting through in five days they just couldn't see how they were going to do that in four. So we then spent quite a bit of time talking it through and working it out and actually those guys are now the biggest advocates for it because I think what a four day week does is it helps you become more resilient and better at your job.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:43]:

Yeah, I mean let's talk about that then. What have you noticed, Mike, in terms of the impact upon four people and definitely with reference to bounce back ability?

Myke Parrott [00:08:53]:

Yeah, so a few things I guess the first thing we noticed and the main metric that we really tracked, if honest sickness, I think decreased was about 70%.

Simon Ursell [00:09:09]:

When we looked at very similar it was around 70% drop off in absenteeism.

Myke Parrott [00:09:14]:

And from the previous twelve months what we had seen that and I think this is probably pretty common, monday was the most common day where people would call in sick and especially my business. It's quite a young team and they'd work hard Monday to Friday, come out Friday, saturday probably be pretty run down on Sunday and often not feel great on a Monday morning and we've all been there, I'm sure, but for us I think what that's enabled the team to do is recognize that they can go out on a Thursday night now and sit in bed on Friday and get it out their system and Sunday is often a chill day for them and it's made Mondays far more productive than they were previously. I think I think staff sickness was certainly I think the decrease in staff sickness was a huge positive that we saw very quickly.

Simon Ursell [00:10:07]:

That's linked to mental health, isn't it? Yes, it's about the ability to cope and if you get three full day where you're not working, you're resilient, you build up those reserves of relaxation that you can then bring into your working week plus you just feel better on Monday morning. I mean I don't know how you feel, Mike, but I actually really want to go in there. I mean I don't work on Fridays like you suzanne, our psychologist who's coming on the pod as well, she actually said to me at the start of the trial don't work on a Friday because if you do that'll mean other people might try as well. So I don't know, it's interesting that you do that and your guys still don't work because I've had to try and find strategies to not work which I found really difficult but the benefits of having three days off means Monday morning you fly into the office, don't you just really want to go to work? Because frankly I want to do something, I want to get stuck into it, I like my work so I want to get in there.

Myke Parrott [00:11:03]:

Yeah. There's definitely been a monumental change in the dynamic of the team on a Monday morning for sure. Everyone's pretty upbeat and buzzing and well rested as well. And I think four us, I think probably the next behind staff sickness, I think the next kind of key indicator that we saw was the attraction of staff as well. And again, we hadn't really thought about it too much, but when we started hiring a little bit more aggressively after the implementation, we use a range of methods to attract new consultants to the business, but pretty much every single consultant that we wanted to hire chose us. We didn't lose anybody to rival processes and I think the four day working week and the attraction of that was a huge factor in that there's not many other businesses that can offer that. So the opportunity to earn the same amount of money working four days rather than five and have that extra day on the weekend is a huge appeal to people that wanted to work in our industry.

Simon Ursell [00:12:05]:

Yeah, we've attracted some pretty great people that I'm pretty confident we wouldn't have. I think it demonstrates our focus on enjoyment and happiness at work. I think doing something that feels so risky, it felt very risky at the start, it doesn't anymore. I don't think it's risky now. Now I think that doing a five day week feels really risky to me. Four day week now feels like the safe thing to do. But I think that demonstrates to people who are looking at your business that actually you do genuinely care because you've done something so radical or that seemed radical at the time based around their happiness, their enjoyment, that it gives this brilliant signal to them that you are genuinely interested in them. The reality is somewhat different in that the four days are pretty intense. I think we work a heck of a lot more intensely, I'm not going to say harder because it's not about working hard, it's working smarter. But we're a lot more intense around our working day now. People are a lot less inclined to sit in meetings or twiddle their thumbs. And Parkinson's Law, every task fills the time allotted to it. That kind of thing is sort of out the window. The guys just want to get stuff done and move on to the next thing.

Myke Parrott [00:13:21]:

Yeah, we've certainly seen that as well. And I think, although I'm no psychologist, I always felt that in our game, which is recruitment, that if you could find a way to get in that zone, as it were, and be in that blue head zone, that we've discussed sometimes, actually, you can get more done in an hour sometimes than most people could get done in 5 hours just by being switched on and kind of in that moment. And actually it's a never ending conundrum as to how we can get consultants more switched on, more focused to produce that kind of level of work in shorter time. I certainly feel, and I believe that the science will probably back it up, that by having more rest time and by consultants having more time away from work, doing other things with their minds occupied, the opportunities and the ability to have that level of focus is significantly increased. And the financials and the figures and all the metrics that we track in our recruitment business certainly seem to back that up. And it's no surprise that actually, since that changed a four day working week, our businesses has certainly increased turnover, increased profitability, which is a very nice byproduct, of course, but not one that we were necessarily expecting.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:37]:

And same for you, like productivity impact on it.

Simon Ursell [00:14:41]:

Yeah, well, we think our financial year will end at the end of July. By the end of July, we reckon we're going to be around 6% more productive than we were on a five day week. So that means we're producing 6% more than we were in four days. Than we were doing in five days. So actually 26% more productive, but that means we're adding 6% more on it's. Remarkable, isn't it? It almost feels ridiculous. But actually, when you do it, when you look at your team and you see what they can achieve, when they're properly focused and motivated, they deliver and you give them a whole day of time, a money can't buy reward, which is time they're going to work really hard to deliver for you. And that's been proved. And it's been proved across tens and tens and tens of businesses through the 48 week trial and through businesses like Mike's that have been doing it for even longer than that. Yeah, it just seems so obvious to do it now. But the four day week isn't the point for me. It's not about a four day week. It's about sitting down and working out where is the sweet spot for your organization to deliver. And when you look at things like sport rusty downtime, rest time is a big thing. You build it in, don't you? Don't perform at your maximum all day every day because you know that that is a very, very poor way to achieve the best performance. You'll have significant periods of rest so that you can perform when you need to.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:09]:

Yeah, I think best performing teams understand the rhythm of their team. I was with a player at Leicester Tigers, they've taken away their team run. Saracens and Quins had already done that and both won championships. Off the back of it, it kind of counterintuitive, isn't it? You do less, but of course it's quality of output that's really important. And I guess maybe my message to people is, like, when you chose to do five day week, like, what was your second choice? What was your third choice? Have you even thought about what other options you have available to you? Because I know you've spoken Simon about there are some places that do seven day week and actually just like you graze a little bit, you have your afternoons off, you probably work mornings. So I guess that is an option as well.

Simon Ursell [00:16:51]:

Yeah, I mean, you can do what you like. I think that the question is why do you work a five day week? And the answer is always because that's what we do. That's a very dangerous place to sit as an organization, which is we're just doing it because we've always done it. You know you're in trouble when you ask a question and the answer is, because we've always done it. I think that is a very dangerous place to sit.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:16]:

Yeah. And probably like some of that I've seen in both your organizations, maybe for people to consider like, so what are the implications of other stuff you need to do? So I know both of you would be really high on staff development, connecting your team. Does that happen just on a Friday? How does that work? Because I assume that it's led there might need to be more admin support around your team. For example, what are the other implications of the five day week that you've noticed?

Myke Parrott [00:17:48]:

Mike well, I think the first point to address, which I'm really glad you made the connection with team sport, actually, because I think another huge benefit that I feel is really developing our business is the connection and collaboration of the team. And actually, if you think about it, so many other businesses that do a five day working week means a lot of our team on a Friday, they haven't got any mates to hang out with, right, because they're all at work. So what that means is quite a lot of the team, especially those that live close together, are hanging out with each other, which is really, really cool. And we place a big emphasis on making connections, collaboration and training. And I think that's added an extra kind of layer to the dynamics of our team in a positive way. And aside from that, what we try and do as well is company socials will put on a Friday where we can whether that's lunch together, whether that's incentives, prizes, monthly, quarterly, whatever that might be, and again to be. Able to have that time together outside of the office, outside of the workplace, where no one else is off work or a lot of people aren't at work. I think that's seen a really kind of big understated benefit to our team, for sure. I don't know if you've experienced that yet. Simon yeah, absolutely.

Simon Ursell [00:19:08]:

I mean, we're putting on optional Fridays, things to do, training and self development, those kinds of things. We do the core sort of training stuff during four, four day week. So health and safety, compulsory stuff, but all the fun stuff, the things that the team really enjoy, we put them on on Fridays and people can come or not come. It's not something that we say you must do the interesting thing is most people come because, like you say, Friday, your friends at work are around. If they're all doing something fun with Tyler Grange, they want to go and hang out together. And I really like that because it means you're choosing to do it. We don't have to force people these sort of forced, awful, forced company day things that everybody dislikes, don't they? I think I'm not sure there's many people that are still enjoying those sort of things, but when you're putting something on that they can choose to come to and they decide themselves to come to that, it just makes the whole thing so much more fun because people want to be there. They're much more engaged and enthusiastic about it. It just makes your whole business function much better.

Myke Parrott [00:20:14]:

Yeah. And I think going back to your point about support, Rusty, I think a lot of the benefits that Simon and I are talking about today, I think would maybe give people the wrong illusion that it's all sweet moving from that five day to four day week, but it's not. And not everybody copes particularly well with that transition. Some people have struggled. And when we talk about support, I think some of the things that we've done as a business, which would include you personally, Rusty, the help with external support, such as yourself and Suzanne, which have really helped us think about what we want to get out of work, what we want to get out of life, how we work best, how we get in those zones of focus, how we could be a little bit more resilient and really get to kind of understand those things, some of the things that we've tried to do as a business and try to again, I keep talking about this change of onus and it has taken a lot of time for us as a business to really start to take that on board, making people realize that it's perfectly safe to leave the office and go for a 20 minutes walk because they're not feeling like they're in the zone or they can't concentrate. Of course, it's absolutely fine. But actually educating people that they should go and do that, or they should go and switch on the PlayStation, or they should go and get a coffee because we recognize that that's going to help them be a little bit more focused when they come back. So that's taken time. But I think those areas of support that we've given as a business will hopefully make, you know, this move even more fruitful.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:52]:

And as a man who feels guilty when he's not working, I completely go with that. I mean, again, like, maybe to both of you, like, I'm sure there's been some challenges, but if you could just maybe pinpoint one and talk about it a challenge each that you think made you have to consider some stuff.

Simon Ursell [00:22:10]:

I think the biggest challenge for us has been the intensity of the working week and you alluded to it, then the guilt on a Friday when you're not working and the temptation, I think, is just to sneak a bit of work in on a Friday and then you lose the benefit if you do that. So it's quite important, I think, to actually have a four day week and not to let it become a seven day week. Like most sort of founders, entrepreneurs, business leaders, tend to want to work constantly. I think I'm better at my job, but that's really hard. And then I've got to really focus. I don't have the luxury of being out of work all these days because I know I'm not going to be that great if I do. I'm going to be much better if I actually take some time out and do some other things volunteering, exercising, hanging with my family, playing some sport, whatever it might be. That has been really hard and I think the whole team have found that very difficult. We think it takes about three months for people to get used to the rhythm of it, at least three months. I think nobody really gets into that rhythm early than that. I think that's the minimum time really is three months before you get the hang of it, because you go to school at four Monday to Friday and then for the rest of four life, you are working Monday to Friday. So to come to Tyler Grains and say, right, you don't do anything on a Friday, just don't do whatever you like, really freaks you out. And I think that is, for me, the biggest challenge. And it is quite hard. And I mean, it might sound lovely and it is in many ways, but actually it is genuinely hard because you've then got to totally change your approach to work Monday to Thursday, which is I've actually got to get a lot of stuff done here, and I've got to be more organized. I've got to get through it efficiently, and then I can have my downtime recover and then go at it again the next week. And you are better if you do that. We've discovered you're better if you do that. So the biggest challenge is getting yourself is making that change. And the bounce back effect from that is when you are presented with challenges Monday to Thursday, you are so much better at overcoming them. But it's hard, you've got to put the effort in, your business has to change. If you carry on doing what you were doing in a five day week and try and do it in four days, you're going to fail, you've got to change. So you've got to put in new ways of working, you've got to go after waste with a zealous approach. You've got to really be obsessed about that and it isn't easy. So the hardest thing has been making the change in the way we function from an ingrained five day week that you've learned from the age of four to turning it into a four day week. Pretty trickiest thing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:59]:

Yeah. Before you share four, Mike, you just made me think you probably needed to not do list. There'd be a lot of people in your organization that are probably doing some stuff that's like, unnecessary and actually you got to work out what it is.

Simon Ursell [00:25:12]:

Everybody is. Yeah. When you actually sit down and look at what you're doing a lot of the day, there's a heck of a lot of time. While you're doing stuff you don't really need to do or you're taking your time doing a four day week, you've got to be quite you got to be into, actually, I'm going to get this done as quickly as I can. Actually. No, it's not right. I'm going to get this done as well as I possibly can in the time and then I'm going to move on to the next thing and I've got this meeting that someone wants me to come to. Do I need to go? We've got a good, honest approach to that now, where somebody holds a meet and say, can you come to it? And they go, Actually, no, I don't think I need to be there, so I'm not going to come because I got to go and do some other things.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:48]:

There's definitely a lot of time wasting a meet things, in my experience. Mike, challenge, one challenge that you'd like to share?

Myke Parrott [00:25:55]:

Well, I definitely echo Simon's sentiments and personally, I'm really struggling to not go into work on Fridays because I think, oh, I'll get that done on Friday when no one else is in.

Simon Ursell [00:26:04]:

And that's really nice.

Myke Parrott [00:26:05]:

I hear you, Mike.

Simon Ursell [00:26:06]:

It's so hard.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:07]:

You were sneaked in on a Friday just for that.

Simon Ursell [00:26:09]:

I'm not perfect.

Myke Parrott [00:26:12]:

Every Friday, pretty much, but I am trying to move my diary around so that I can give myself a bit more time on a Friday. So that's something I'm working on. But I think for me, probably a separate challenge and probably a bigger challenge for us as a business was almost that client education piece. And bear in mind that our client base is pretty much 100% US based nowadays, and I don't know of any businesses in US that work a four day week, so to them, it's totally alien.

Simon Ursell [00:26:44]:

Yeah. I've talked to some American TV networks about this, and I don't know if.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:49]:

You'Ve noticed, but Silence been doing their own on BBC, CNN.

Myke Parrott [00:26:53]:

I thought I recognized them, but it.

Simon Ursell [00:26:57]:

Just blows their mind, doesn't it?

Myke Parrott [00:26:58]:

Yeah, absolutely.

Simon Ursell [00:26:59]:

Culturally, it's so bizarre to them.

Myke Parrott [00:27:01]:

And actually, there's been a lot of internal discussions as to how we speak to our clients about that. Right. And to be honest, most of the time we don't even mention it. And I think the reason that is there's a lot of cultural differences between the UK and the. US. And we find in the US more so than over here, they're not a straight talking, they're a lot nicer than us in some ways. In the UK, they'll say, no, we're not dealing with you. No, we're not going to do that. Whereas in the US, they may well make out that everything hunky dory and then just go dark. So, for us, we don't really mention it. Whether we're going to change that approach is, again, something we need to discuss, because I would like us to start being a little bit more vocal around this change and the benefits that we've seen.

Simon Ursell [00:27:48]:

Rusty and I need to get this podcast out in the US, don't you, Rusty? And get it to as many as Mike's clients as we can, but to.

Myke Parrott [00:27:57]:

Saying that there are some clients that are aware that's how we work and most of them are more than anything, are fascinated. As you said, Simon, it does blow their mind and it is pretty serious. Yeah, it's pretty pioneering, really. But the number one question, really, from these clients is, well, if we have requirements on Friday or we need you to arrange them on a Friday, how are you going to deal with that? And I guess the honest answer is that although four consultants aren't in the office, if there is stuff to be done, they will do it. Which is true. Which is true.

Simon Ursell [00:28:29]:

We'll do the same. Yeah. If we've got a client that needs us on a Friday, we'll be available. Because on the five day week, if they needed us at the weekend, we'd be available.

Myke Parrott [00:28:36]:

Yes.

Simon Ursell [00:28:36]:

The reality is, it almost never happens.

Myke Parrott [00:28:39]:

Yes.

Simon Ursell [00:28:39]:

So it's fine. Yeah.

Myke Parrott [00:28:40]:

100%. And the amount of times where something super urgent comes in on Friday, that needs to be dealt with, you count those instances of one hand, because everybody's.

Simon Ursell [00:28:49]:

At home on a Friday afternoon.

Myke Parrott [00:28:51]:

Everyone's at home on a Friday afternoon. Or they're in the office pretending to work like we used to.

Simon Ursell [00:28:55]:

Yeah, like we used to. Because Fridays are optional everywhere, aren't they? Just that note, everyone's kidding themselves.

Myke Parrott [00:29:00]:

Yeah. And there's not many things that can't wait until the Monday as well. So we're in a bit of a conundrum there and we may well have a little bit more of a strategic approach to how we deal with that moving forward. But for the time being, we don't really mention it. And I think, in the main, most of our clients are pretty accepting and some of them hopefully admire our approach as well.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:29:25]:

Cool. Well, before one last question, I just did some math there. So I am 47 years of age. If I worked for another 20 years with 52 weeks in the year, that would give me 1040 days off. I love skiing, so in that time period, I could have 208 five day ski holidays as a result of the four day week, which got me quite excited. If my body would hold up to it. Henry Ford moved us from six days.

Simon Ursell [00:29:52]:

To five day the Olympics a year. Is that what you yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:29:56]:

You thinking I could qualify four the Olympics?

Simon Ursell [00:29:58]:

I think you could. That much skiing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:00]:

Henry Ford moved us from six day to five day due to a part of a movement a guest had started to try and move us from five day to four day. If you could give, like, one bounce back ability, like top tip or piece of advice or something you'd like to share to finish us off, what would it be?

Simon Ursell [00:30:17]:

Well, for me, I think it's all about getting the team and getting them empowered. I think Mike and I would I don't know if I'm stealing your thunder, Mike, but I think it's all about getting your team engaged, because they're the ones that are going to find the gains, they're the ones that are going to find the ways of working that are different. It also gives everybody a massive sense of purpose. So in terms of the bounce back ability factor, having that extra day gives them the mental resilience, the ability to bounce back from challenges, which allows them the space to come up with great ideas and change your business, transform four business for a 26% increase in productivity, which is what we've had.

Myke Parrott [00:30:58]:

Yeah. Again, I would echo those sentiments. I think team empowerment is massive and I feel we, as a business, taken it to the next stage, really. We even prevented the four day working week. And about four or five months ago, we changed our working pattern. Again, we really put the onus onto the staff. So instead of us saying you were in it from this time to this time, and this is what we expect, it's very much now. Okay, these are some core hours, but actually you fit your time in around this. So if you want to go to the gym in the morning and get in at midday, you go and do it. You want to go play football, rugby, training, Tuesday, Wednesday, whatever that is, you sort out your own schedule. But this is what we expect from you. And that's been really, really positive. And actually, I think for the kind of people that we want in our business, that's perfect. Right. We want self motivated go getters. And what it has also helped us do, which is probably something that we haven't really spoken about so far, it's also helped people in our business identify that maybe it's not the right place for them and that's okay. So we've had a couple in the last couple of months that have moved on with our support, and actually they've realized that they're not the kind of people that want to work in recruitment, whereby the onus is on them. They have to set their own schedule. They need to be given a checklist, they need to be told exactly what to do and what time to be in, well, that's not us anymore. And they've decided that's not for them. That change and that's cool. And they go with our best wishes. But what it's given us is given us a real, as Simon said, a real purpose, a real idea of where we're heading as a business. And the team are very much at the core of that and they contribute to a lot of the decisions we make on that basis.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:46]:

Yeah. As someone who's interacts with both of your staff, I would definitely echo those things. I see that in your people. And I was writing down if I wasn't self employed and terrible at saying no, I would love to do the four day week. And I guess maybe we'll jump back on in.

Simon Ursell [00:33:03]:

You should do a four day week, Rusty. It doesn't matter if you're self employed.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:06]:

I made an attempt to commit to it by the end of this year, last year, and failed as a game. Miserable just because I love again, I love what I do and every day is different and all that stuff, but maybe when we come back in 2024.

Simon Ursell [00:33:22]:

It'Ll be a three day, you'll be better at your job. That's my theory.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:28]:

I really appreciate four time. It's been amazing hearing the stories and have an amazing day.

Myke Parrott [00:33:35]:

Otherwise, thanks, guys. Really appreciate you.

Simon Ursell [00:33:37]:

Cheers. Say, Rusty podcast is about the four day week subject very, very close to my heart. Obviously, it's a good one.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:47]:

It's very good. And I guess something that I'm now reflecting on my seven day week and going, what other options might I have given the great stuff Mike shared that made me reflect deeply?

Simon Ursell [00:33:59]:

Yeah, of course. I mean, seven day week probably not performing at your very best all seven days.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:06]:

Well, I'm feeling in the odd holiday.

Simon Ursell [00:34:08]:

Feeling good about that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:09]:

I actually just did as the antithesis to the four day week, I just did a ski holiday and I'm calling it Scadmin holiday because I skied and did Admin every evening till about midnight. So I am not a good example for this.

Simon Ursell [00:34:22]:

No, you definitely need to find some four day week in your life, don't you? So, great pod. What did you take out of it?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:30]:

Yeah, I just thought it was interesting, wasn't it, listening to the two different contexts. Tyler Grange, IgM I guess how you consulted, how you implemented it, probably both come to the same conclusion as a Friday off then, I guess also interested in how people were using that time, certainly with our bounce back ability theme, like the impact upon people and actually their well being. And also interestingly at the same time, their productivity. So sounds like people are thriving a little bit more.

Simon Ursell [00:35:03]:

Yeah, sure. Pretty fascinating stuff, isn't it? I mean, a five day week blows my mind now, if I'm honest. I think five day week was very risky. I think four day week is very safe.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:14]:

Yeah, I think there's some questions, isn't there, around? I think you say, like on the talk about it on the pod, like, why a five day week, but maybe even, like, why a five day over a four? Maybe people need to think about it and we touch slightly again on Sport, where really they are thinking very intentionally around peaking for performance. And so there'd be lots of examples in rugby of teams that have decided not to do a team run on a Friday and rather give that time to players to recover, to maybe do an extra hobby. I know Annalise is doing a bit of aerial hoop at Tyler Grange.

Simon Ursell [00:35:51]:

Look it up if you don't know what that is. I had to yeah, I think and.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:55]:

Then probably the last bit that really resonated is just like the different, you know, you've had slightly different challenges. How you navigate those as leaders is super important as well. How you communicate that, how you make decisions. It sounds to me like both of you, there's been really important that you've got a group of people that work with you that are willing to take ownership, are willing to drive this. It obviously then has implications, like you might lose some people along the way. It's definitely got implications for hiring. I imagine it once I've been hired into a four day week business, you would find it pretty tricky to get rid of me.

Simon Ursell [00:36:31]:

Yeah, absolutely. There's all sorts of implications and I think we covered a heck of a lot, some great stuff in there, isn't there, for people thinking about a four day week or thinking about changing any part of their business, actually. But in terms of time, lots of food for thought, because just carrying on doing what you're doing now probably not going to be around for long.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:55]:

Yeah, I mean, obviously, as you know, I'm a kind of a break the rules fan. There's a written rule, isn't there, around it's a five day week, and maybe the podcast is beyond the four day week and it's actually more around, like, just be more intentional, maybe investigating or interrogating the stuff that you're doing and going. Are there better ways of getting my people to be happier and to be more productive?

Simon Ursell [00:37:19]:

Yeah. Cool.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:20]:

Over and out. Thanks so much for joining us on the Bands back building podcast with Samarin Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you want to reach out to us, Simon, where can they reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:37:31]:

LinkedIn's. Best place? Simon Ursul, you are S for sugar. E-L-L. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:38]:

TikTok. No, not really. LinkedIn, russell and Shaw and then the same on Twitter, but please ignore all my political thoughts.

Simon Ursell [00:37:46]:

Yeah, second that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:47]:

Over and out.