Building Resilience and Cultivating Effective Coaching Environments with John Fletcher | Episode 9

Today on the Bouncebackability Podcast, we speak to John Fletcher, Head of Pathway and Elite Coach Development at Scottish Rugby. John has not found himself in this position by accident. With 10 years heading up England Rugby’s pathway, experiencing the position of Director and Rugby as well as founding The Magic Academy coaching development organisation, John knows a thing or two about the sport.

His passion for rugby stemmed from his experience of playing and coaching younger players, and his 3 sons can vouch for this! When he’s not on the pitch you’ll find him with his wife, children and dog, AKA the Fletcher tribe.

Listen to find out how his passion for making a difference through being different has led him to what he calls his destiny in life.

In this episode:

00:00 How reflecting on formative experiences can shape the future outlook of your team.

10:53 How does self-care fit into resilience? Can you be resilient alone or do you need others?

13:20 Health scares and their impact on life – how a harmful virus led to Fletch to re-think his priorities

27:42 New (more flexible) perspectives on building self-purpose, understand our surroundings, and allowing failure.

35:06 Becoming emotionally aware - crying doesn't always mean someone is sad.

39:51 Bringing the fun - can a more playful approach to resilience bring better results. 

You can connect with John Fletcher here:

X: @fletcherrugby

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:

Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:

Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell [00:00:08]:

Looking forward to it. Listen on. Okay. Here we are again. Bounce back ability. This time, we got, Fletch Coming on. I think we both have learned that bounce back ability, there's a there's a lot about environment. And and I think we both

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:23]:

think that Fetch is probably one

Simon Ursell [00:00:24]:

of the guys we both

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:26]:

I think he's, he's a bit of an expert around environment and how to get that really working. And you know him way better than me, Rusty. So what do you think we're gonna learn today?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:35]:

Well, I'm hoping you don't feel like a 3rd wheel, Simon. Bounty. And and definitely is interesting. Like, my first with Fletch. You'd work with Waltz for probably 8, 9 years up until that point, and I probably took me a bit of time to work out How that environment works, how to, like, interact best with Fletch, and my reflections on that time is it's it's It's definitely in my top ten. It's probably in

Fletch [00:00:59]:

one of my

Simon Ursell [00:00:59]:

Top ten.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:00]:

High ones. I'm saying that just to warn Fletcher. But, yeah, just a amazing person, a, around himself and obviously, like, in a position of of of probably high stress and, You know, ups and downs and how you deal with that as a coach over the years, but also the the stuff we're gonna talk about, the environment. So being part of that England pathway with Fletch and seeing the environment that he set up and how he set it up and how he welcomed people into it and how he Treated them when they were there, both, like, in terms of high support, but also high challenge, and then how he continues. You know? He He would talk about his coaching tree, like the influence, hopefully, he's had on coaches like me and lots of other people, and hopefully this podcast is gonna allow us to to spread

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:46]:

that influence even wider. Yeah. I'm I'm just fascinated to see what we learned. So, let's get Fletcher on and find out.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:54]:

John Fletcher. How the devil are you?

Fletch [00:01:56]:

Yeah. I'm good. Thank you. This is bizarre. Been asked questions by you and, yeah, I'm your servant.

Simon Ursell [00:02:01]:

Are you finding this really weird that you fetch? Because you guys I mean, shout out to the, Magic Academy podcast. A bit weird for you 2 to be talking on a different pod, is it?

Fletch [00:02:10]:

Yeah. I've done it a couple of times, I guess, but, yeah, it is a bit odd. I do feel as though you're a gooseberry. You're kind of, like, getting in the way a bit.

Simon Ursell [00:02:17]:

Oh, I mate, I've I've ever the gooseberry. Very honored to be a gooseberry with you, Because that's for sure.

Fletch [00:02:22]:

Well, what yeah. You maybe wanna wait for those comments until the end. Okay.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:27]:

Well, Fletch, we've given you almost no, priming whatsoever for this, podcast, so we all get to see how you are freestyling under pressure. I guess, it spans back. Ability podcast Does what it says on the tin. Soccer I am nineties. How do people deal with pressure? How do they bounce back? I'm I'm really wanting to put an emphasis today on what type of environments have you been in or around that might facilitate that. And you preceding that, you might, like, tell everyone who you are apart from Top Gun Rope Be Catch.

Fletch [00:03:00]:

They would. The Topgut is a reference to the T shirt that I'm wearing and a baseball cap, trying to stay ever youthful. Yeah. My current role is, I'm responsible for pathway, male and female, within Scottish rugby, and I've seen responsibility around, performance coaching or elite coach development, is the official title. Prior to that, spent quite a bit of time hanging with Rusty around the Magic Academy and other in initiatives and continue to work on some stuff together, which is exciting. And I worked for English rugby, on and off of probably 15, 16 years. The most recent role that I was in was similar to this. I had a pathway role, under 18, male, team role.

Fletch [00:03:41]:

So, yeah, and I've been fortunate. I've been in lots of different environments Over the years, so, yeah, looking forward to sharing some of the environments that that I've been in and some of the stuff I've noticed around resilience or Pounds back ability, which is a great name.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:56]:

Where does your mind go to first? What's it what are you thinking about?

Fletch [00:04:00]:

As an environment?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:04:01]:

Yeah. Just when once I started talking about resilience and man's packability and environment, was there somewhere you you you went to, somewhere you were thinking of?

Fletch [00:04:09]:

Probably on education and school. I mean, we spend so much time in our formative years and how that shapes you and just don't to look at those environments that did it Well, when I was so the 1st place I went was my own experiences. Like, what what what experiences I had, and I went to education. You spent a huge amount of time at school, 30 odd weeks of the year between the hours of 845 and 3:45. I just went to have a look at sort of what they're doing And how they're doing it. I was fortunate again growing up in the countryside at a time. I'm 52 now, so just Do the maths. Probably wasn't as much regulation and other stuff, external factors that are going on, and I was fortunate.

Fletch [00:04:52]:

Thought teaching was at a really good place there. It was before the strikes. Lots of people talk about the strikes, what the strikes did to education. And, I because I kinda wasn't aware of it. Even when the strikes happened, and I was in education, didn't really have that much impact to me when the rural school wasn't that many people. Everybody Appear to be working really hard, both in the classroom and outside the classroom to try and create environments that were, like, helpful. And alongside that, I definitely went straight to scouts. Rusty, you'll you'll smirk.

Fletch [00:05:23]:

I'm now a scout leader, and I'm not actually I'm not in it. You just give me the 3 fingers. Not in a movie.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:30]:

We'll do our best.

Fletch [00:05:31]:

They're the scouts. We're the Cubs. Scouts, do your best. So that was, that that was amazing experience alongside the education. Again, I was fortunate. We had some teachers that I felt Really cared. Quite skillful on giving feedback. More skillful out of classroom than in classroom, on reflection.

Fletch [00:05:50]:

And And definitely that scouts and cubs experience that that I had was amazing. I was getting a lot of freedom, a lot of opportunity to take some responsibility and everything that goes with that. Clearly, when you take responsibility and and you have some leadership type stuff, not everything goes well, and sort of how you deal with that both for yourself and others. So they're they're they're the first 2 environments that it made me think about. Clearly, we can talk about performance environments from a sport in context, as we go, I guess.

Simon Ursell [00:06:14]:

Oh, can I jump in there? Because as a bit of a fanboy. I think I mean, I'd as an in a bit of an interest in rugby and And having spoken to a few people around rugby and seeing you guys coach, the I mean, the England under 18, environment you guys both had is famously A really pretty good environment. A lot of players who who went and did that. I know you speak very fondly of it. And you're talking about school and scouts and things like that, and I, you know, don't wanna Give you guys big heads, but I I think it was a really brilliant environment, when you were there. Is you're talking about these great environments. What is it? What did that should he look like? What would be the the what would be the sort of almost mechanical things that were going on that meant that was a good environment and that you then took through into some of these Places you've worked in.

Fletch [00:07:00]:

Yeah. I think it would kind of be a bit clumsy and a bit, people would be falling over themselves a little bit. I think, it would be different. You would see difference. You would hear it. You'd kinda feel it a bit. And hopefully, you would feel that it was okay, That it was absolutely fine. You're probably also then, and it's a real balance, isn't it? But having this lots of stuff that's going on that's different.

Fletch [00:07:25]:

However, Actually, they're going after something that feels quite aligned and it's got good clarity. And it's so there's always this I I think there's quite a lot of tension between that. That's what I've noticed in the best environments. There's real good clarity and direction, and we're going after this. We know, like, these are our behaviors and but but, actually, it's it's actually really dynamic. It's really, really dynamic. There's a lot of difference. What do

Simon Ursell [00:07:50]:

you mean by dynamic?

Fletch [00:07:52]:

The dynamic is well well, what I mean by dynamic would be, like, there's just lots going on, And they're sort of bumping into each other, but not in a but not not in a harmful way. You know? They're sort of so rather than Sort of clashing heads directly. You sort of just like you just kind of glancing. The sort of glancing blows type stuff. You know? It's it's It's it's more of a jab than a hook from a boxing analogy, I guess. So that's what I kinda mean by dynamic. There's lots of things and it's all happening at once. You know, it's not linear.

Fletch [00:08:23]:

It doesn't feel,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:25]:

Mechanical. What's your relationship with Simon's word mechanical?

Fletch [00:08:31]:

Yeah. It doesn't feel sorta yeah. That's a yeah. That would be a good way of finding it. I mean, I I'll be honest, I find it quite hard to describe it. And that would be one of the things I sometimes struggle with is actually describing it because, like, I kinda feel it. I kinda feel it when it's right. Interesting enough, we had it.

Fletch [00:08:47]:

We were talking yesterday. I might be digressing completely just around staying being in flow. My view in flow is that you can be intermittently in and out of flow. Some coaches we had a coaching conversation, Simon, just for some context around this state of flow. And people say, oh, I've only ever been in flow, like, twice, and I'm going, I was in floor about 10 minutes ago, and I lasted about 37 seconds. And, like, I I actually took 2 key seconds,

Simon Ursell [00:09:12]:

not 38. Hey. Say it again. Not 38 seconds.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:17]:

30 seconds.

Fletch [00:09:18]:

It was definitely was by a specific number. Seconds.

Simon Ursell [00:09:20]:

Yeah. Just timing yourself in flow.

Fletch [00:09:23]:

Yeah. So I think, and yeah. I mean, that's just my view around flow. I'm not sure what has to do with this pod, but I I do think it's, Yeah. I do think it's something to consider. I think I I just think sometimes people are, like, a bit mean to themselves and a bit tough on themselves. Like, just be a bit kinder to yourself. I'm sure we're gonna talk start talking about this.

Fletch [00:09:41]:

I, I've actually developed some strategies where I can just be a bit kinder to myself. Just give myself a bit of a break, and Come on, mate. Like, I know it didn't go as well as you wanted to, but, like, you've you know?

Simon Ursell [00:09:52]:

What is it about the environment you're in right now that allows you to do that? Is that what you've created for yourself, or are there external factors that have helped that?

Fletch [00:10:02]:

Yeah. Both. Look, we're all influenced all the time, aren't we, by People and things and objects and what we see and what we read, so I continue to get influence. I mean, I would like anybody else. I'd some have some key influencers who It would really, it would really help me. Rusty would be one. Like, Rusty Rusty's on my IDP. Somebody I really value, What he does, how he does it, how he thinks, I don't always agree with him.

Fletch [00:10:26]:

But, yeah, I think there's a number of us who would have Some people have been really helpful around that and sort of influenced our current thinking.

Simon Ursell [00:10:33]:

That made Rusty smile then.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:34]:

Did, mate. I've got can I can I build on some of the Stuff you said, Fletch? Now I've got 2 questions for you, Fletch. 1 is, I don't like Simon's word mechanical. I I I think you would think like a scientist. So I think you'll be experimenting all the time. Something that I'm really mindful of is interesting as you're trying to and you've already used the words, elite and performance fletch, And I'm excited to hear what they mean. But I was chatting to the INAC coaches yesterday, and you just change 2 or 3 people in a team. And so, for example, Tommy, who's their captain, can be, he's really competitive and really wants to win, and sometimes that gets the better of him under pressure.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:12]:

And so we don't know, like, the the new players have come in, how he's gonna deal with those players under pressure because he's not had that experience with them yet. So So I think my point being that, you know, it's not mechanical. We throw in 3 or 4 new players, and we actually don't necessarily know what's gonna happen under pressure. The stuff that I wrote that I thought was, super helpful in, in the environment you create with the eighteens was just you said it clarity, but the clarity would be quite principle led. So place, playful, loving, accepting, curious, empathetic. That is how the adults will behave as much as we can, and we will reflect upon that Cards, creativity, awareness, resilience, decision making, self organizing. That's the stuff we're going after. That's kind of our end of mind, And I thought that was helpful.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:56]:

And then I'm gonna give a shout out to Josh Clark who who's created the new Scottish Rugby CPD, if anyone's listening, around, The stock market for coaching coins. Well, we just got chatting about, like as coaches, we have, like, these Different coins, and they have different values at different times. So at different times, like, you would dial up on optimism. At other times, you might dial up on Strictness, if you wanted to, if you felt like that was a helpful thing to do, you might use certain coaching skills. You might use feedback. Now feedback's quite a general thing. I'm Shoo, you would individualize it so we have, like, options as leaders in those environments or anyone in those environments as to how we behave and what skills we use. Sko Skibet Skihaviors, as we're now calling them.

Fletch [00:12:44]:

Skihaviors. Skihaviors. Combination of skills and behaviors.

Simon Ursell [00:12:47]:

Easy for you to say.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:48]:

And so I've got 2 questions for you, Fletch. 1 is, where does looking after yourself fit into that? Into you being resilient and demonstrating that and being Intention around that because you're the busiest man I know, and I'm busy. So I wondered to what extent that. And then the second thing I was thinking a bit about was, like, You've spoken loads about team and environment and that. So do you think it's possible to be resilient on your own? Or do you think it actually requires, like, There'd be other people around you. So you talk about having, you know, people that you, you know, you would check-in with and might give you some feedback on something or you might get their perspective Do you want something? Well, I mean, what are your thoughts around those 2 things?

Fletch [00:13:29]:

Yeah. A couple of things. So I take the sort of there's, like, looking after yourself and being kind to yourself. I think a lot of that's just from the self talk Stuff. I'd be like everybody else, carry a lot of self doubt, get frustrated, be agitated, get a big cross, All of those and often I'll just I'll just be honest that I wasn't helping myself. And you probably know, I I am generally an optimistic person anyway. It's like I generally do think things would be alright. It's one of my beliefs.

Fletch [00:13:54]:

Like, it's a belief that I have. I have a belief that it'll be alright, and I've had it for quite a long time. So in terms of the self care stuff, just just to be mindful that I've ever ever hear myself just being mean to my Oh, just, kinda give myself a break, I'd say. Almost that internal conversations that we're having all the time anyway. So, yeah, I I think I'm better at the self talk stuff. I I would use the car often for that. Even the training, there was 4 times 4 or 5 times last week at play, I caught them them sorry. Caught me talking to myself on the pitch.

Fletch [00:14:26]:

So they said, what what did he say? I was I was I just said I was just having a chat, and they went, what One place I did with, I said, I was just having a chat with myself. He, like, looked as me if if it was a bit weird.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:37]:

I was just you and myself. I thought I was just saying, go Fletch, you're great. Flechey doing a brilliant job.

Fletch [00:14:42]:

You're the man. You're the man. But yeah. I mean and I do, and I have found my I I don't know if it's an itch thing. I I actually I actually I like doing it to myself out loud rather than just this self talk we have with our with ourselves a lot, which is quite silent. I actually listen in to myself In the car. So I I do a lot of self talk in the car. I will literally have a conversation with myself just talking, like Trying to get 2 people to to have a conversation.

Fletch [00:15:08]:

So self talk is around that. The big one for me around as well is sleep. So I had a bit of a scare. So I had a bit of a virus that went into my heart a bit. Some some weird stuff happened with my heart, and it definitely gave me a scare. And, ultimately, I need sleep. Like, I've I've realized that when I don't have it, actually, it starts to manifest itself in I mean, I'm feeling so well, and it Starts to starts to create some stuff going in my heart. So I've I've actually got a real good sense now of when I actually need a rest or Sleep like a little nap or just to go and chill, and and then I definitely need extra hours per night.

Fletch [00:15:44]:

So I've kind of built that through, Through, you know, something that sorta happened to me. So that's that's kinda how I look after myself. In terms of the second question, Which is around yourself or others. I mean, my preference would be that I would get it from others. Like, I I do I really value being around people and And sort of bouncing off people even if I'm not actually being accused, asking them questions, kinda listening to stuff and picking stuff up. And again, that's why I like being around Rusty's. Like, he will he he'll it's one of his strengths. He's a good communicator.

Fletch [00:16:19]:

He likes to share stuff. He's got a lot of energy, all all of that sort of stuff. Like, even just being around him is sort of helpful for my resilience. However, I I am aware of people that would answer that Definitely. You know, they would sort of start with themselves first.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:33]:

My wife and my kids.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:36]:

Yeah. They were definitely They'd say they like being around.

Simon Ursell [00:16:39]:

You're just you're just fishing for compliments. Yeah.

Fletch [00:16:41]:

Fred does a just so you realize, I was with Fred. Fred is up with me and. He does a great roll of his eyes when I mention your name. But, like, you know and then he smiles out. I'm I'm not even sure if he does it. I go, oh, how's your daddy? He sort of rolls his eyes and then smiles. So I always think that's, like, really I like it. I like it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:59]:

The, actually, it's interesting because you did your coach development thing you did last week was around lots of this stuff, wasn't it? You were kept saying, look, I think there's a I think we're at a tipping point here. I think there's this is, you know, almost a can of worms that's gonna be open for Coaches and leaders.

Fletch [00:17:14]:

Yeah. I generally think if you said to a leader or a coach or lots of leaders and coach, You're gonna have the same lifestyle. You're gonna get paid the same, but, actually, it's gonna be a different profession, and you wanna take this bit away from it. I think a number of people would leave the industry coaching. And it's it's getting it's I mean, I'm I'm I'm hypercritical, and I don't see players having a great time. Like, it's, and I know having a great time manifests in lots of different ways. You don't need to be whooping and wailing and giving high fives. I am aware of that.

Fletch [00:17:47]:

But, Generally, I think coaches are looking, you know, you're sort of really, I don't know, quite stressed, quite anxious, quite agitated, not looking at the great timeline. Be a great question to ask, wouldn't it? Like, let's do a bit of a straw poll on leaders in business, coaches. You can have the same lifestyle, but Take this bit away. Would you take it? I actually think a lot of I think a lot of people would move out of the industry. I mean, which is Which is quite ridiculous, really, because coaching and I think leadership should just be an amazing experience all all the time. Just wow. Just to be around people and responsible for people and everything that goes with that. I think we're getting a bit meta, actually.

Fletch [00:18:29]:

We're getting quite deep, aren't we? I didn't realize we would.

Simon Ursell [00:18:31]:

That's cool. Deep's good.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:33]:

I'd say I

Simon Ursell [00:18:34]:

mean, you you really think a lot of coaches would just go, actually, yeah. There's a significant part of my job I'm really not enjoying. Is that down to I mean, I I I don't enjoy pro sport. I'm not sure it's a great thing to put pro and sport together. But, you know, it is what it is. Do

Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:52]:

you think that's anything to do with it?

Fletch [00:18:54]:

What the professional sport bit did you Well,

Simon Ursell [00:18:56]:

putting the word putting money and sports together.

Fletch [00:18:58]:

I think, again, I just I think we got a currently, I think we've got an unfortunate relationship with professional sport. I think we need to think. And and clearly, I've I've just been to America. I went to America for a bit around some conferencing stuff, and we went into a couple of their franchises and some of their sport, and they obviously they've got a Different sort of view on it. The baseball I went to a baseball match and, I enjoyed the baseball. It was like a 5 out of 10, But I absolutely loved the occasion. It was it was close to a 10 out of 10. Like, the experience that I had as a as a punter around Around that as a sport was amazing.

Fletch [00:19:36]:

So, yeah, I just think we maybe gotta think of professional sport in a slightly it would be really helpful if people on just smile, and they were nice and kind to each other. Like, all I hear when in post match interviews is is just blame, Like, really poor behaviors that are not helpful to society would be my view. I think people said, right, describe professional sport. I don't think it would get good reps. It wouldn't get a good word cloud. You know, like and I'm look. It's it's clearly different to Nursing or RSPCA or but, like, I don't think it should be so far away. I think I think we should, as a as a as a group of people, As a a professional sport, you'd be thinking, hey.

Fletch [00:20:19]:

What do you want people to see on TripAdvisor about us? It's a long time to just say, like, they're really grumpy. They blame everybody else. They're quite mean to each other. It's quite cutthroat. People look sad over than, like, when it goes really well anyway. That's kinda what I think.

Simon Ursell [00:20:35]:

So we're recording this now just after the, Ashes series. Basbull has been Widely criticized, in my opinion, through the Test series by, a significant number of pundits and Other coaches and things. But the players themselves are saying they're having the best time they've ever had. But then you do see some behavior around the Ashes That maybe wasn't so positive. What's your what's your take on that and that environment that that Brendan McCollum's created there.

Fletch [00:21:09]:

I can't believe Rosie hasn't jumped in because he knows how much I love cricket. Like, I think it's a I I think it's generally I think we'll look back at this as a moment where the game changed. Like, I think it's that significant. I think he's the dancing man on the hill. Stalks, buzz, 2 kindred spirits have met at the right time and collided. I think there's an inevitability around people will copy the vast majority of what is currently happening, and they'll clearly adapt it into their environments. But I think this is a significant moment, Not only in cricket, but in sport. So for a captain of his country to come out and talk in the way he's talked around, like, actually, ultimately, this is the most important thing, and we're not shying away from the results.

Fletch [00:21:56]:

Ultimately, they drew the series. They'll they lost the Ashes. But I just think of how many people they've inspired and the conversations that I've been even Rossy's talking

Rusty Earnshaw [00:22:05]:

talking about it. We're talking about it now.

Fletch [00:22:08]:

We're talking about it now, so so they got like, it's wonderful. It's lovely. It's bigger. I just think sport's bigger than Then what has been in the past, and it's just full of mediocrity and full of, like, just people trying not to get sacked. And For those guys to kinda go on, well, actually, maybe it could look like this. And cricket's a great sport for that.

Simon Ursell [00:22:28]:

Well, that's a nice bounce back environment. It looks to me like that The whole basketball environment feels quite bouncy, doesn't it, in in terms of the support and the the freedom to make mistakes. The result isn't as important as inspiring people and having a having a great time. I mean, I I'm Very biased towards that, but it looks great to me. It feels like a resilient environment.

Fletch [00:22:51]:

Yeah. I think from and, actually, You came up to, where my son is. My son's a working environment and, Stokes, he came up and had a bit of a chat with them around that, and he just talked about stuff that, is you guys have probably already read as well. Just wants to get the best out of people, wants wants people to play to their strengths, Wants to change the game. He wants to change the like, he should they generally want to inspire. They want to inspire, People in this country and across the road sorry. Across the world, around around giving this sport a go. They they they they love the sport.

Fletch [00:23:28]:

They absolutely love it. They, like, you know, they would I use you know? Well, I mean, they have and they do. They would play for their local team, You know, they, you know, they're doing what Johnny Wilkinson used to do to us, which is bang on the academy door and say, is there any chance I can come train? And, like, just love the sport. Just love playing it. And, yeah, just yeah. They've sort of changed in the world, and, I mean, ultimately, they're trying to get the best out of people. I know the press. I mean, the press are the press, and stuff.

Fletch [00:24:01]:

If they're trying to be helpful, they're not Often. So if they if they feel as odd

Simon Ursell [00:24:07]:

They're not trying to be helpful. They're trying to sell newspapers and column images on there.

Fletch [00:24:11]:

So But if one of the objectives is to try and help cricket grow and, you know, to try and help somebody from the north of Northumberland fall in love with cricket or get quite good at it, They could they could help more. If if if one of the objectives is is to help grow the game, maybe it's not. So, yeah, there's some definitely things and stuff trying to get in the way. But

Simon Ursell [00:24:33]:

Can I just pick up on something? Sorry to interrupt. There's something you just said then that really struck a chord, which is Johnny Wilkinson used to rock up and play because he just loved the sport. What was it about what you guys were doing that meant Johnny Wilkinson wanted to come and do that? Was it just he would have done that anywhere? Or was there something about what you guys were doing that he actually thought, actually, I want a bit of that?

Fletch [00:24:57]:

Yeah. I just think he's to hear I just think he's to hear the, I just think he used to hear stuff. Like, people were probably giggling, probably laughing, Probably screaming, because we used to train on the over pitch. So there was a fence kind of a fence between it sort of stuff. Yeah. I just think it was an environment that you thought you would become better in and you would enjoy being involved in, and maybe Maybe he wasn't getting a lot of that in the other environments. You know, there wasn't getting as much of that. Still quite early stages of professionalism, rugby, And it was wrestling with what professionalism mean.

Fletch [00:25:37]:

You know? People were, like, standing in queues looking serious, That type of thing. So yeah. Look. I mean, obviously, Pathway and Academy is slightly different to the performance type stuff, and I'm not Over the critic, and I've been too critical of what was happening, but I think he just enjoyed the type of environment and and and the activity. It wasn't just invite. It was the activity. You know? We would be doing activity that he enjoyed type stuff. So anyway.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:03]:

Can I build on a couple of things you've said, Fletch? Go back to nursing in the RSPCA, like A lot of research around. If you are close to the end user of your impacts, then you are likely to be more effective. As coaches, we are really close to the end user, so I agree with you. We should probably be having a better time of it. It got me thinking also when you're speaking, Simon, about, the other day, the USA women qualified for the last 16, and they were celebrating in the crowd and having pictures taken. And the commentators were, like, losing their minds over it, and I was thinking, this is super cool. That's really weird. It then got me thinking a bit around, like, I love you know, Basz Ball came from, like, he had a you know, someone died on a pitch, didn't they? Gave him perspective.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:50]:

I think, like, often, we've lost perspective. And the person that we definitely need to speak to is Marcus Trisgothic. So I did a thing at Somerset and asked him, you know, asked everyone to think about The most impactful meeting there, reverend. He described this meeting where coach is really positive. I didn't know who he was. He said, oh, yeah. We then went out and beat Australia. I was like, oh, cool.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:09]:

You'd like You play for England, like, in anyway, I then you look at his story, and you look at what he's experienced. And now he's involved with England, isn't he? So, like, that would be fascinating because he's probably seen the ultimate or or felt the ultimate contrasts there as well. Would love to know what he's saying about it and what he's thinking about it because, so Stuart Broad announced his retirement, like, he said, like, this is the most I've ever enjoyed cricket.

Fletch [00:27:36]:

Yeah. It's yeah. It's yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely an insurance fund, Marcus Truscott. I can't believe you don't know who it you didn't know who he was.

Simon Ursell [00:27:44]:

Yeah. That's

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:45]:

No. And also in Bell. So So it, is it it's in Bell, isn't it? I mean, him

Fletch [00:27:48]:

as well. He's he's here too. He's very

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:50]:

busy. He's coaching there as well now, so we definitely get him on. I was And and and let me full circle back, Fred. So let's imagine, Portugal rugby say, look. We're really, interested in developing our pathway and Our elite players, because you probably only work somewhere where they said elite. What's what would be you know? And they said, Like, we we we want we want you know, you've got 3, 4 months to to get in, to have impact. We're really like, one of our big challenges is around that kind of Mindset and the mental skills of our players and their ability to, you know, be resilient, to deal with stress, to to be great teammates, whatever it might be. Like, What would you do?

Fletch [00:28:33]:

Some just I mean, definitely, just spend time in lots of different environments, Some of them formal, some of them informal, where people can I know this is obvious? Just understand each other. Understand, like, And, again, I don't think teams are doing this well. Lots of it is quite formal. You know, they're bringing pictures and answering conversations, or they're getting people to To write stuff about ninjas, really developing their self awareness, but also along self awareness comes self purpose. Get people to kind of understand kind of what they are. Like, the fact that this rugby thing is part of, you know. So I'm a I'm a son. I'm a brother.

Fletch [00:29:09]:

I'm a dad. I'm a I'm a dog owner. I'm a scout leader. I'm a chairman of a junior rugby club. I'm a I'm a I'm a part of multiple teams, like, like so it's it's not just about self awareness, it's about self purpose. So if you took this thing away from me and it's been taken away from me a Couple of time I spent, like, I put a lot of energy in the 10 years of my life for it to be taken away. In in my opinion, quite unfairly. I think it could have been done in a Different way.

Fletch [00:29:35]:

But, yeah, it it it was fine because I've got quite a lot of self purpose. Like, I feel as though I'm I'm not just the rugby coach. I've I've got lots of other things that are going on. So I think not only building self awareness to over to get people to To build self, you know, their their self purpose to understand kind of where they are and what ultimately that's gonna be. And also and a part of that would just be to understand this team meet. Like, there were the people that are around you who are they were really important to were always gonna be there or And and and that definitely changes as people come in and out of your lives a bit. Some sometimes they might be in it for a short period of time. So that's the type of stuff I would I mean, I would want to give people opportunity to fail.

Fletch [00:30:20]:

I'd wanna demonstrate Create some vulnerability. It's easy for me because I'm actually not that good, so I'm pretty disorganized. I'm not that polished at that many things. So I think one of my strengths as a leader is that oh, Christ well, like, he's not that good, type stuff. So I'd I'd I do think that's helpful that I would I would just be me, which is like this. I am quite vulnerable. I'm prepared to make a bit of a dick of myself. I've I've I think that's also important as well.

Fletch [00:30:52]:

So yeah. That and and then just do a just do a variety of things. Just try and get some, Like some some variety and some engagement and some excitement, and definitely make a difference so we can, You know, hopefully, in there somewhere, there'll be some stuff that people really enjoy and some stuff that people find challenging. And, and then work really hard around your, Like, your team, like, the people around you. Like, just get people in who are who have similar thoughts. Like, They wanna go in a similar direction, but it would it would probably get there in a different way. So, like, we're quite different in lots of ways, but we're I think we're very similar In lots of ways as well. And just try and create that type of stuff.

Fletch [00:31:37]:

So there's there's a lot of common ground. So we're all trying to get to Edinburgh, But, like, you've gone via car line. I'm not sure why you're going via car line because I'm going straight up to 68. And Walter's gone because he wants to go and see his mom and he's Andy type stuff. Somebody else is flying then, somebody else has got the trainer, that type of stuff. Again, that might be too It's

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:59]:

not mechanic on it. It

Fletch [00:32:02]:

might be too. It's very mechanic. And then and then There's a good word to

Simon Ursell [00:32:06]:

describe it.

Fletch [00:32:07]:

Sorry. Just one last thing. Now just be really mindful. And, Rusty, I think you're brilliant at this. It's just around confidence. I think, Rusty, I think you underestimate how skillful you are just, like, You know, there were like, some some sincere moments as well as you've been quite sarcastic and all that. I try and build people's confidence as they go. Try and notice some stuff that they're doing well.

Fletch [00:32:27]:

And again, I think I would do that quite well. I I I would want to build people's confidence. And there will be times where I I will be dismantling it as well, by the way, but not before I've built it and definitely built a good relationship with that person, well, I can. I mean, I'd knock my kids' confidence on purpose a lot. Well, not a lot. That's an that's but I do I do do it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:50]:

You were knocking some kids' confidence yesterday at 7 when you were running around them in the game of in the 50/22 game.

Fletch [00:32:55]:

Score has gone charged. Absolutely was Smashing that game, wasn't it? You didn't look

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:00]:

you didn't look that vulnerable yesterday.

Fletch [00:33:05]:

Well well, Tom well, Tom Mitchell was, like, he was on the opposition, and they picked him before picking me, so I was pretty agitated. Too.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:13]:

I think the self purpose is a really interesting one. Well, loads of that interesting. Like, again, I I would say you're really good at noticing people doing Stuff well, and you're super sincere, and you find different ways of, like, of of celebrating that stuff. It might be in the open. It might not be in the open. It might be A gift. It might be a conversation. It might be a pat on the back.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:33]:

I was really interested in this on purpose because when we sat down and chatted the other day, And I've said this to you. Like, I felt quite, it's quite emotional listening to you talk about, like, when you lost your job. And, actually, you were then, like, Well, actually, I was over it in about 48 hours because I knew I had this other perp and, you know, I knew what my purpose was, so I could go and find something else. And I just wondered, like yeah. I just wonder whether you'd, like, maybe talk a bit about that stuff.

Fletch [00:33:57]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, the yeah. I've been I've lost my job twice. First one, It was a bit more of a relief, and and I I was fine. I I thought it was definitely and and I'm fine. That was the right decision. The 2nd term, like, Yeah. I thought it was odd.

Fletch [00:34:16]:

However, like, that sort of happened. I mean, I am an optimist, So, you know, my mindset is, like, I am optimistic. I do in the moment, I'll deal with it. And I was upset, frustrated, Tried all all all of those sort sort of things that happened, but, yeah, I was very quickly able to give it some perspective and to kind of, like, Do what I needed to do with the people who were in there. Is everybody else okay type stuff? And then ultimately start to start to sort of get into some of our stuff. But, Yeah. I mean, I had lots of things I could just go and do because I'm involved in lots of things. I I do strongly believe in being Being heavily involved in your community and having that type of mindset is is helpful for your well-being, because I know I belong to so many, You know, so many gangs, so many tribes, so many teams, like, and I know lots of people are watch out and Look out for me and, Saluk, if you need some work, just come and dig the garden or something like that.

Fletch [00:35:16]:

Like, I knew I'd be fine. But yeah. And then, ultimately, it's just around just having a bit of a plan. Yeah. Just, like, right, let's just start to consolidate. And and I did. I've sort of reached out to lots of people around, people who've had that that experience in the past, people who I thought of, It would be skillful, in terms of, like, giving me some guidance and some support. It was it was obvious I was gonna then change.

Fletch [00:35:44]:

I was gonna become self employed. I was just gonna go and do some stuff on my own, which I enjoyed it. However, I do I do I do enjoy being back with the team as well. I do enjoy working for Scottish Rugby immensely. But having that period of time where I was self employed and I was doing lots of different stuff was an absolute game changer. That's actually one bit of advice I would give to professional coaches. There's at some point, have a have a natural break. Some of them are unnatural, I.

Fletch [00:36:10]:

E. You get sacked. But actually, just gonna have a natural break and go on soon with something different to come back in. I think you'll be much better informed. People get on the treadmill a bit. They get in their bubble a bit. And, like, an off season's not long enough. If you think, oh, well, look, I have, like, 4 weeks off.

Fletch [00:36:27]:

It's not it's not long enough. It needs to I think you need to go after it for a for a couple of years. And then to go back to it, I think it'd be loads better.

Simon Ursell [00:36:34]:

I'm only gonna build

Fletch [00:36:35]:

on 1

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:35]:

That's quite cool.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:36]:

I was just gonna build on 1 more thing, Sam. Sorry. But you mentioned, like

Simon Ursell [00:36:40]:

you go.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:40]:

You mentioned you had a cry. And and interestingly, that's been something we've been talking about with the kids on the camp, hasn't it? So often some of the more, Currently, in inverted commas, better players on the camp have actually, like, cried a couple of times around some stuff. And, again, we just Had an interesting conversation around that as well.

Fletch [00:37:01]:

Yeah. I think the conversation you're referring to is that just, like, people don't always cry when I I cry more when I'm happy than when I'm unhappy, but I do cry when I'm unhappy. But I I I will cry, I do. On average, in a week, probably 3 or 4 times. The vast majority of them will be through happiness. I'll see something on the telly, it'll just make me well up, and Water comes from from my eyes, and that's people crying. It's it's my reaction to to stuff. And the point I was trying to get is Just because somebody cried doesn't mean they're sad, or just because they cried, it just like, that might be a really good coping strategy for them.

Fletch [00:37:35]:

I personally think people should cry more. I feel a lot's better. Even if it's just, like, 2 or 3 and I'm sort of wiping my eyes a little bit, I've oh, I don't know of them. Clearly, there's lots of chemicals that are going on, obviously, I generally feel better. When you have a real good, like and when I got sacked, definitely had a good old ball, like, for, you know, 4 or 5 minutes, like, Almost like a seal type stuff. I thought a lot's better after that as well. So, yeah, I think there's a couple of watch outs. Like, don't always assume because people have this, And we've sort of programmed ourself, haven't we? Like, oh, crayons.

Fletch [00:38:10]:

Well, a crayons bad, but it's not. It's been proven to be really good for you. It's actually good for your eyes. And then, actually, it it it it might it might not be a part. Like, they might be crying through happiness or they're just It's just a completely normal reaction. It's just like somebody breathing or or somebody sighing or somebody Scratching their face or whatever it is. It might just be they need some they need they need some change. Definitely working on the female pathway more more recently, here there's a lot more tears, across all forms of emotion.

Fletch [00:38:46]:

But I generally think it's a much happier place to be In a female around the females in the pathway. Like, they're definitely more relaxed around how people respond in the moment To a situation, I. E. Crime. Like, it's yeah. It's just quite normal. And it's it's actually quite refreshing To be fair, to have players who are just are shown emotions, shown shown more emotions as a I mean, I'm not second guessing why they're doing it. Often, it looks to be a coping strategy To get them back into being in a place where they can go and do well from a performance point of view.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:28]:

And just to give it context from the camps, like, we had, as an example, 1 kid who I think it was that. He was just, like, kind of regulating his body and just getting himself back in the moment. And then, Like, he had a a bit of a, a couple of challenges that were quite hard for him. But then the next morning, like, he came and found me, Rusty, and I I wanna practice this. I wanna get better in it. I realize this is really important for me. Like, we got this new kid who's like and I was definitely, like, soup I was actually stressed about it on the evening because My instant reaction is, oh my god. Like, hope he's okay tomorrow.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:03]:

Hope he's okay. Like but he was happy to do it in front of the other kids as well, which I always thought It was pretty cool. And, again, I guess that's what you're talking about that in an environment where that's normalized, a bit like dancing or singing floor. You know, lots of the best environments I see, we do lot you know, lots of activities that I'm sure come from, you know, our ancestors.

Fletch [00:40:23]:

Yeah. That's good. I mean, you you guys might know more around the sort of evidence around it, around just crying, just the actual act of crying. Yeah. But emotions No no no you're hopeful

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:35]:

that is

Simon Ursell [00:40:35]:

helpful, isn't it?

Fletch [00:40:35]:

It's just our relationship with certain emotions based upon Something that's happened. Like, how are people responding to stuff? And the boy who you were talking about, like, he had a response to something That made him feel in a certain way. And the part I was trying to make is, like, coaches are making assumptions that this is how he's feeling. Oh, he's sad. Well, it it might not be sad. It might yeah. Anyway

Simon Ursell [00:41:01]:

Well, Brilliant pod. We we kinda need to wrap up there, I think. I just wanted to say thanks for coming on. As ever, really enjoy hanging out with you And having the pair of you on Yac in a way. And I do think, you know, it was good to hear about quite a few of the mechanics around, bounce back ability. Though.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:21]:

I think

Simon Ursell [00:41:21]:

that I really enjoyed that.

Fletch [00:41:24]:

Yeah. I think it's, Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, thanks for having me on. I think we sort of, Yeah. Hopefully, that was that was helpful. I mean but and by the way, people are wrestling with this all the time, so well done for bringing this to light, this Bounce back ability, this resilience. And again, the word resilience just gets bad bad, you know, bad shout out, I think.

Fletch [00:41:46]:

I think being more playful with it is helpful, calling it something other than resilience, Bounce back ability, like, it's cool. Like, it sounds good fun. It sounds like it should be a board game. Actually, maybe it could be a board game. Because actually board board games often like, you definitely gotta Develop resilience in board games, so bonus bag ability would

Simon Ursell [00:42:03]:

be a good board game. We'll say you're the licensed to the name. No worries.

Fletch [00:42:06]:

Still got the license.

Simon Ursell [00:42:07]:

Can make your board game. Yep. Thanks so much, guys. Really enjoyed it. And, yeah. Speak again soon.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:16]:

Over and out. Legend, Fletch. Oh, Fletcher never fails to disappoint, Simon? There was a decent innings from him.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:24]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:42:25]:

Yep. Great guy. Fascinating stuff.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:27]:

Yeah. Maybe maybe we will give him a license for the game. Probably, we

Simon Ursell [00:42:31]:

Don't let's not give

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:32]:

him a license. Let's just pick a sprains and set it. Must be amazing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:35]:

Let's let's Use his scout leader skills to scout leader. To Ponzi scheme it, globally. Yeah. And even just that last bit was really interesting. Like, I've worked with England Women's Cricket, and they talk about what makes you wobble and how can we help you. And suddenly that playful language, bounce back ability, is always like a Playful way of talking about some stuff that's often tough to speak about. So that probably resonated with me and made me think more about how environments translate it. You know, often we'll have, you know, psychologists and or people with that expertise, but then being able to translate that language and Make people feel less kind of stressed about it and more comfortable with it is something I'm considering even more now.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:18]:

Yeah. Sure. I mean, it's it's so much going on. I think Fletch touched on this a bit that it's a very dynamic. I mean, It is a dynamic world. There's always lots of influences going on, and that's important to have a direction to travel, but but be able to be flexible. I know your plan is your plan, but the environment around you is changing constantly. So, you know, you've gotta try and be resilient to that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:40]:

And, it's really important that the environment supports that dynamism, isn't it? I mean, I think that's fascinating because it's so, so true. People get so obsessed around Rigid structure. Mechanical. Mechanical. Mechanical.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:53]:

Who would have said the word mechanical? Yeah. I can. That was strange. Yeah. No. No. It's good there.

Simon Ursell [00:43:58]:

I was Trying to be provocative as usual. So, yes, it's just really important to to be able to to get out

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:04]:

of your plan and just Just accept you're moving. You you're using other things as well to help as long as you've got a a clarity of purpose. What did he say? It was, if you feel it when he's right. Yeah. Yeah. If you feel it, it it doesn't have to be rigid. It's it's about feeling.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:22]:

Fletcher would be really big on feel. That'll being, you know, a word he would use, feel way more than think. And maybe to build on that, like, I was also interested in the kind of self purpose stuff he spoke about himself having, you know, being a A dog owner, a coach, a scout leader, a husband, a father, all those things. And, interestingly, me and you were together the other day and With someone who's just having a baby, and her life's gonna change, and she'll have a new identity. And so even when we're talking about flux within an an environment, Individuals are experiencing that as well. My experience of that is that I'm I'm probably much more resilient now. I have these kind of multiple identities. I was at a thing the other day, and I did say I don't mind if you call me a bad coach.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:04]:

But if you tell me I'm a terrible dad, I'm probably gonna be more, get more, I'll respond differently to that one. Yeah. Any other stuff you

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:12]:

were thinking about? Well, I think, it it was interesting what you said about leadership And how leadership, coaching, people are not having a good time, and it should be an amazing job. And I I that really resonates with me. It's it's tough being a leader. So one of the things about the environment that's important with leadership is you are there trying to lead whatever it is you're leading, coaching sports team, leading a business, whatever it might be, that that can feel really hard, and people just aren't enjoying it in class and don't wanna do it. And they should it should be amazing, shouldn't it? And then he moved on to he was talking a bit about Basball. And, I mean, his pod's going out in November, and this was happening in the summer. Just amazing. The the priority there is entertainment and enjoyment, and the results are gonna look after themselves if we're and you should be Enjoying yourself.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:02]:

You should be having a great time while you're doing something. And that and I think for an environment to really succeed, the thing I'm gonna really take away from this is Let's try and have a bit more enjoyment and stop taking things too seriously because I think often Fairly minor things can become really overblown and dramatic. And, actually, trying to be more playful and a bit more almost childlike around, enjoyment is gonna make you a much better leader. It's gonna improve your environment. It's gonna allow you to bounce back more. So, yeah, pretty profound stuff, but I loved it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:38]:

That's probably why we're going to the play lab and why I've got a bag with Elmer and the cooking monster, but maybe more of that later. We'll do a, yeah, a podcast around that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:46]:

Yeah. Play for sure. It's important stuff.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:49]:

Well, thanks everyone for listening. Hope you enjoyed it, and we'll catch up with you soon.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:52]:

Yep. Keep bouncing back, everyone. See you soon.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:55]:

Thanks so much for joining us on the Bands Back Movie podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can I reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:47:05]:

LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursell, u r s for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:11]:

Tik Talk? No. Not really. LinkedIn, Ross Lanshaw, and then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:19]:

Yeah. Second that. Over