Embracing Emotional Fitness in the Workplace with Dr Suzanne Brown | Episode 4

In this episode, Simon and Rusty welcome their special guest Suzanne Brown to share her insights and experiences around emotional fitness within the workplace. Suzanne emphasizes the importance of creating a culture of psychological safety, both within oneself and in relationships with others. 

Together they discuss the impact of providing emotional fitness classes to employees and the lasting effects they have on individuals, resulting in increased productivity and lower rates of sick leave across organisations. The conversation also delves into topics such as resilience, coping strategies, and the importance of personal growth.

Suzanne explores the concept of institutional transference and challenges conventional practices of employee retention, suggesting a shift towards alignment with values and individual needs of both the employer and employee. 

Suzanne is a Clinical Psychologist, Emotional Fitness Consultant, and the brilliant mind behind Emotionally Connected, a specialized psychology consultancy merging clinical psychology with elite performance. Her innovative approach empowers us to actively address our mental health through immersive and captivating methods.

In this episode:

[04:35] Screening Organizations and Individuals: aligning motivation and agenda.

[09:12] Addressing Resistance: the different approaches, including confrontation and alternatives to help individuals make their own choices.

[15:20] The Concept of Resilience: The nuanced concept of resilience and how it often involves facing hardship.

[22:05] Emotional Fitness and the Ripple Effect: the emotional fitness sessions and their profound impact on individuals and relationships.

[30:40] Psychological Safety in Organizations: the importance of psychological safety in organizations, enabling individuals to be themselves, offer ideas, and learn from failure.

You can connect with Suzanne here:

Twitter: https://twitter.com/drsuzebrown  

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emotionallyconnected/  

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drsuzannebrown/  

Website: https://www.emotionallyconnected.co.uk/ 

Please like, subscribe or follow so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here:
 
https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:

Welcome to bounce back ability. Again, we've got Suzanne Brown, clinical psychologist on the pod today. We're gonna be talking about all sorts of interesting, technical, psychological

Simon Ursell [00:00:13]:

things. So, yeah, really interested to see what Suzanne's got to say Rusty, I think you've got a a killer question to start us off with. Suzanne, are you well? How is Sunderland?

Suzanne Brown [00:00:23]:

I'm well. Thank you. And Sunderland is sunny. Lovely by the beach and enjoying it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:29]:

Wow. Said no 1 ever about Sunderland, but I I enjoyed that. Yeah. Cool. Look, Austin, I have you on first thing, Gaugus, I'm interested in is, like, our themes really bounce back ability. I know you heavily in there, like, resilience and how people bounce back and deal with pressure. What's what's what's stuff have you noticed? Like, maybe even, like, give a context at the last few years where you seem to be really busy. Like, what's the food you notice that means that this is relevant?

Suzanne Brown [00:00:59]:

So well, I think to contextualize it from my perspective, from, like, a psychology perspective, resilience when I think about that I don't think about it like the Teflon phenomena. Like, it's not like nothing sticks, and I think sometimes there can be this misunderstanding that it's about being invincible. And, actually, that's just not the reality. It's not the reality for people who are resilient, but I don't think it's a helpful narrative that we we talk about it in that way. So when I think about resilience, I'm thinking about it from a perspective of people encounter some hardship, you know, life slings and arrows or adversity. And there's kind of 3 things that can happen despite of that. So they they still have a good developmental outcome. Despite being in, like, a high risk situation that actually they they continue to feel competent and distress And then there's this element of recovery from trauma, right, which is probably the bounce back ability part that you're speaking to. So I think increasingly, when I when you're asking, what am I noticing? I would like to think that we are we're appreciating the nuance of resilience much more. I think it became a really big buzzword. It's really interesting to even notice where it comes from. I mean, it didn't come. It didn't start in human development. It started in materials. Right? People would talk about how resilient a material was, and then it kind of found its way into the the conversation around humans and then organizations. So for me, it's it's a recognition that it's not about being invincible. And, actually, there's something going on if you're experiencing hardship, and you have no reaction whatsoever. So it's I think there's more of an acceptance that it about how well you do recover and that you're still able to thrive, you're still able to reach really good outcomes in spite of adversity.

Simon Ursell [00:03:03]:

Wow. I mean, that's really interesting. The it sounds like the language is quite important, but, I mean, I've I've noticed in human resource terms, the language is quite interesting where you talk about retention of employees. They that's they sort of language you know, like resilience of materials. It's a that the vocabulary can be quite misleading, can't it?

Suzanne Brown [00:03:26]:

Yeah. And it's it's just like I think we we find things that we adapt. Obviously, we take from other domains. But then I think, like we were saying, you know, it it can be a buzzword, and then it becomes so blurry or so ill, ill, find that people are just using it and banding it about, and and, actually, the the more work that's going on. So I know miss staffers are up as far as doing some fabulous work in this arena. He's definitely the 1 you want to have on the podcast. But there's some appreciation. And actually, this does date back. It's not just something the staff is looking at. I'm thinking about I mentioned off off air. This fortieth study that looked at children from high risk environments, and it followed them a longitudinal study for 40 years to see, out of these children, who were the ones who were able to be resilient in the face of some pretty traumatic things. Right? Like, so not just things like parental divorce, but maybe things like substance misuse in the home or you know, physical trauma that they've been exposed to. And even then, we were looking at resilience being both within the individual but also as part of the environment. And that's something that Mustafa's work is really drawing upon lately in distinguishing the 2 and saying, actually, there's there's resilience within the individual, and we can get into what that looks like. But, actually, the environment has a part to play, and it it's not just located within the individual and the environment, you know, is just there, it's an interplay between the 2.

Simon Ursell [00:05:03]:

Are some people naturally more able to bounce back from challenge.

Suzanne Brown [00:05:10]:

So this is where I feel like when you look at if you think about it from, like, a human development perspective, we are adaptable by nature. Right? Like, that is just just how we are built, so we are born ready. The best way I I describe it, Simon, is where animals have to avoid predators to survive. We have to avoid losing relationships to survive. Right? For the child, they have to avoid losing relationships. So they come into the world ready and geared up to connect. And what they find is a variant right. You you can have some parents that are really responsive, that are really, you know, paying good attention to their children's needs. Not perfect parenting, and I talk about this a lot, we know from the research again, you only need to have it right 50 percent of the time. But the key part there is that you repair it when it goes badly. Now If you think about it then, if we're all geared up ready to adapt to our environment, I think everybody is resilient in the sense that they come in and what you see is an adaptation to their environment. Now sometimes that goes well, and you know, they can adapt the environment, the the child's needs aren't met, but it's not devastating to them, and they're able to continue to thrive. At other times, when, you know, children experience high levels of trauma or abuse or repeated neglect and chronic stress, They are also adapting, but what they will be doing is probably using coping strategies that we would call defenses that are probably going to be harmful to them later on. So in the moment, and an example of this might be something like dissociation. You might have heard that term. Essentially, it means that whilst you can't physically escape, psychologically, you escape. Right? You kind of shut down. You go numb. You zone out. That's really adaptive if you're in a really traumatic environment as a kid. Now later on, when actually you want to form a relationship or you want to connect with a colleague or, you know, you want to go on to have friendships, that's not going to be adaptive anymore. So I think this is the sticking point people get stuck in those previous coping strategies. And they don't update to the current reality. So I think everybody is resilient. It's just our capacity to then update This is my reality now, and this is no longer the past.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:43]:

I've got a lot of questions. Can I get some yes, no's, and then we go on a quick thread? Obviously, lots of lots of this will be related to peoples like previous experiences. To what extent do you delve in and out, like, their values, their beliefs, their biases, their biases, their biases, geography there. Is is that a big part of your work so people understand where that stuff comes from?

Suzanne Brown [00:08:04]:

Yeah. It's fundamental in my mind.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:07]:

Next question. Like, you've we've used some words like resilience, hardship. Like, would you start early on by defining some of the key kind of key terms because 1 of my experiences around lots of environments and mental skills, psychology is that we can't see what this word means. We oh, we've all got different pictures in our heads of what it is. Would you define stuff early on?

Suzanne Brown [00:08:33]:

I often will say to people, tell me what that means to you. So, like, 1 of the earliest but the earliest bit in my work, if I think about it as a sequence, is I'm always, first off, trying to establish is it their will to be here. So as an example, if somebody might say, well, my boss sent me here because they think I should be here. I'll say, okay. Well, that's what your boss thinks, but tell me, whether you think you should be here or the equivalent might be you know, my wife says I should be here or, you know, etcetera, etcetera. So very early on, when it comes to, I guess, clarifying terms, my first clarification is Is there will a motivation on board? And then I will always want to know, you know, if somebody says they're feeling depressed, I might say, Well, on an internal emotional level, what does that look like to you? Because, absolutely, Rusty. It looks different to all to all of us. Right? What we might be calling What 1 person might be calling depression is actually their stress response, and then it results in depression, or they might be referring to a defense. And that's not actually the depression. And and it's really helpful what you need to do. In fact, this is 1 of the things that I would be doing to help improve mental strength. Is clarifying and teasing out, well, this is a feeling. This is an anxiety response to that feeling, and this is a defense that you've used because that feeling has felt scary off the beaten, and that is 1 of the ways that you do build mental strength. You help people distinguish it. Like, almost like I often will say train like, if it was a train on a a track, this is the first stop. This is the second stop. Like, that's actually very useful for people.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:16]:

And do you have a a model you use, a framework you use that is -- Yeah. -- like, universal in in all of this.

Suzanne Brown [00:10:24]:

So I'm trained in a model called intensive short term dynamic psychotherapy. There's a lot there. It's kind of like a word soup of acronyms, but essentially intensive meaning that we are really trying to work at the person's highest capacity so that we can bring around relief in the quickest period of time. Short term is in reference to what used to be analytic kind of therapy that might go on for 30 years. Right? So when people hear short term, they might think 12 sessions. It's not that. It can still be, you know, a hundred and these sessions depending on the person's psychology and your psychodiagnosis of them. So, yeah, that's the short term bit. I just clarify that because I think I don't want it to be misleading. Dynamic, back to the point that you made, which is how your past is influencing your present. And that, actually, a lot of things are unconscious outside of our awareness and driving our behavior, and we're aiming to get to the root of that. And then psychotherapies.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:31]:

Yeah. So it's a talking therapy. And my last question, sorry, Simon, is I know it was Okay. I'm aware of Mustafa stuff, and he would talk about individual and organizational resilience. So to what extent do you feel like, you know, you go into a team into a business, and it's you know, where do you start? Is it proactive? Is it reactive? Like, again, is there a framework here where you go, this is this is helpful from an organizational point of view as well?

Suzanne Brown [00:12:01]:

Yeah. It depends on the work that I'm doing. So it like, it there's obviously tools that you can draw upon, and you can apply them generically as in. Like, this is a framework to take and, like, let's let's look at this as a process together. But it really depends on what the the problem is that's being brought. So another thing that I will often start with is, is this a problem that you would like to work on with me right now. And so there's actually a lot in that question that I'm asking people. So is this a problem? Do they see it as a problem? Or has somebody else said it's a problem for them. Right? And it's not actually a problem for them. Do they want to work on it? Because therapy involves work, and it is hard work for people that, you know, say, oh, it's like 10 years of therapy. They've often not done 10 years of therapy. You know about it. Done 10 years of therapy. It's it's really, really deep work. With me, so I immediately I'm inviting in somebody to depend on me, and we have very mixed feelings about depending on people because that goes right back to our earliest experiences of depending on people, and often that's been mixed. And we've been let down, and we've been disappointed, and we've been hurt. So it's gonna stir up all of those feelings straight away. Right now, right, like like, let's look at what's going on right now. So I will ask that of the person But I will also acknowledge and validate if there is stuff going on in the environment. Right? Because, again, we're not we don't exist separately to that. And so, really, there are often dynamics happening in an organization that are contributing to whatever is going on for the person. And there's this really interesting phenomena that I've been speaking to a few people about recently called institutional transference. So I'll I'll explain it really quickly, which is, let's say, you're having a problem with your boss and you're experiencing them as dismissive, but it doesn't feel safe to address that with the boss. What you might do is you might go home, and you might find that you feel like your partner's being dismissive. Of you. Right? So you're transferring what's happening in the institution over to something that's happening in your personal life. And vice versa, it happens the other way around as well. People might be having difficulties outside of work, but it it feels unsafe to address it. Might mean that they've gotta really look at the relationship, really have a a deep dive into that. So instead, it feels safer to come into work, and then, oh, now I'm starting to have this problem with a colleague. And that's the kind of then ground for them to explore that. So, yes, I I will always try to look at what's happening in the environment, but I'm obviously working with the person in front of me.

Simon Ursell [00:14:53]:

That's fascinating. So with leaders and groups, then if if you're trying to work on being able to bounced back from adversity with leaders and groupsists very much about working on the environment, making it safe. Allowing people to be authentic, those kinds of things. Mhmm. And with the individuals, it's about going to the mental health gym is I mean, am I am I making some sweeping generalizations here, Suzanne?

Suzanne Brown [00:15:23]:

No. I I like that, Simon. I I would say It's both, though. Right? Because and you will know this personally that as an organization, you can go to the the emotional fitness gym too. Right? As an organization, you can be emotionally fit. And that, you know, culture is very I think so many people are interested in culture and how we can influence culture. And often, it's the the intangibles. It's the it's the felt sense of a culture. And, again, another popular word that that's gone around and made the rounds is the psychological safety, which is what I really heard you speaking of there, which is, does it feel safe enough? Do I feel safe enough to be accepted? That if I offer up and if I am my authentic true self and I offer something up to this group, they're not gonna shame me. They're not gonna humiliate me. I'm not gonna be cast out of the group that I've got the permission to take risks and for it to fail, and it's gonna feel safe enough to come back and do that again and again and again. So I think that is a really important quite area for people in organizations. And, obviously, you have to have the the kind of psychological safety within yourself. Right? It's between At times, it's between ourselves. Like, there's a wall between ourselves, and at other times, there's a wall between me and someone else. So, again, I'm always trying to look at that too. Like, when I've got a person in front of me or a company in front of me, are there problems going on between connecting within my self. If, like, III struggle to know what it is I'm feeling or I can't use that information then to act in a really healthy way that's gonna involve maybe reaching out cooperating with my colleagues? Or is there something going on between, yeah, me and someone else? There's a barrier. There's a wall coming up between me and my colleagues, me and my boss, whoever it might be.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:17]:

What does, like, the implementation of it, like, emotional fitness team, it sounds exciting. What what would that look like? Like, in terms of, like, regularity of people in person, is everyone there? What kind of questions and problems. Are people well done, Simon? I appreciate you holding up a piece of paper. What's the stuff that's going on in this gym?

Suzanne Brown [00:17:41]:

So well, Simon knows very much this because he he has this at Tyler Grange. So what we what we do, and we've done this for about, I don't know, 18 months now, is that people are invited to an hour emotional fitness class, and we will pick a topic So example topics could be play or impostor phenomenon or procrastination, feedback you know, there's several different topics that we'll go through. We'll we'll basically it's very experiential. It's rooted in community because the idea is, obviously, that you are there at the workplace with colleagues. And we will then run through some information, some signs and symptoms, will get people essentially lifting weights, doing a workout together. So there's a lot of breakout rooms where we're asking people to reflect on how does this topic resonate for them or an example with the feedback 1 might be, what are the common defenses that you use in response to being given feedback so people will break away They'll do some work around that. They'll come back together. We'll share. We'll go into another breakout room again. And then the thing I love about it Simon is and again, I'd love to hear, you know, from you on this too, but I'll then offer 1 to 1 sessions with the staff. So they'll have a collective session together, and then I offer 1 to 1 sessions with the staff. And we can then look at things that are going on for them at work or at home But what I'll often hear is people say, you know, we did such and such a motional fitness class, and it was just there ticking away in the background for the next week or or it generated these conversations, and people are just thinking about it, talking about it, starting to reflect. And naturally then increases their self awareness, which is a huge component for for emotional fitness. But I'll hand over to Simon because he's been on the receiving end of them. So

Simon Ursell [00:19:41]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, you you you come in and and you you you run a mental health gym. I mean, a piece of paper out at Rusty was the emotional fitness foundation course that Suzanne put us through, which was which was pretty cool. But, yeah, we're we're we're working out at Tyler Grange on our mental health quite a bit. And you de notice conversations happening after the the 1 hour. So Suzanne runs AA1 hour lunchtime session with the team every month. Suzanne and and her colleague, Eleanor, did that. And they there's there's often then lots of conversations happen around that subsequent, say, It's pretty powerful stuff. I think the 1 on ones afterwards are essential because I think those can provoke a bit of reflection and sometimes can bring up issues that then need a bit of support. So, yeah, it's not just a question of running a seminar having a chat, and then we're all good. I think I think you've actually gotta offer quite a lot around those things too. I it does feel I think I think the sort of the the vocabulary around this, around mental resilience, the idea and bouncing back. It is I think a workout does work does help. I mean, it gives you it gives you more more mental muscle and more mental flexibility around your around any issues you're facing or any things that then subsequently come up. I mean, our you know, that work can be challenging at times. There's lots of obstacles for you to bounce back from and having built up those muscles and that flexibility and those skills and techniques in the gym with Suzanne and Eleanor, then allows you to to deal with those better.

Suzanne Brown [00:21:33]:

It's but it's a it's a journey, not a destination. It's you know, there's always stuff to do, I think. I just wanted add to because Simon said something to me about I wanna say, like, a year ago, and it always stuck with me, and I say it to other people. And it's a credit to you, Simon, right, because because actually no. It's a it's a huge investment that, you know, Tyler Grange have taken on, and it's it's really carried through. There's this attitude actually, which is about proactively working on our emotional fitness, our mental health, which is what you've really you've you've really invested in. And that is it does give you this extra bandwidth, right, this extra buffer in times of then future adversity. But what you said to me, Simon, was Do you know what? I think we're gonna look back, and it will be the equivalent of, like, looking back in the eighties and going, how was it that we didn't wear seatbelt Right? How is it that we don't offer emotional fitness to our staff? And it's I think it's such a great analogy that I have used it that I think you're spot on it. People are are gonna look back and go, how were we not doing this for our staff? How did we not think that this was important?

Simon Ursell [00:22:40]:

Yeah. I mean, it's I I think it was Elena that said this as a gift, isn't it? The the the gym, the the the place where you go and work out. I think if anybody listening to this who goes to the gym and works out, I mean, you know, go to the go to the mental health gym. There's laser resources around that you can get to because it will help you bounce back. But, yeah, III just think it's becoming such an issue, and the benefits are set now so clear that people are going to be wondering how on earth we managed And and to be honest, a lot of people don't manage, do they? I mean, that's the reality.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:16]:

Yeah. Simon, when you say the benefits so, I mean, obviously, I'm not that good to go to the gym, by the way. So when you said invite in Suzanna, I immediately thought, oh my god. I might not go. But then also, Simon, you used the language Suzanne put us through it, so I thought Suzanne would definitely have to put me through going to the gym. It is an investment of of time given that Tyler Grange is a 4 day week company to then go actually during that 4 days we're actually gonna invest time in this. And let's say 30 people go, let's you know, they go for an hour, then and then they'll have an individual, and then that's 60 hours of of of work. So what what are the benefits you've seen, Simon? Why are you thinking, you know, this is the this is the seat belt for this century?

Simon Ursell [00:24:05]:

Well, it's I mean, it's about productivity. If you if you wanna start putting sort of measures in in place of it with a with a 4 day week, and it's about being in as effective as you possibly can be. When you're working. I mean, you can go to a sport analogy. I mean, both of you have got very strong sport backgrounds. You don't play your sport. For every day all day. You spend a heck of a lot of time training, developing, working on yourself to be able to when you need to perform. And I think the the small, the tiny investment I mean, a a lunchtime session won 1 a month and then a bit of 1 on ones for those that need it. That's not a big invest. 60 hours in a month. That's That's nothing, really. I mean, when we got almost a hundred employees working 4 day a week for a month, I mean, that's thousands of hours. Say, it's a small investment but the impact is gigantic in terms of them then not feeding overwhelmed. Ibs and tears them at Tyler Grange. Has dropped by almost 70 percent in the time that we've been working with Suzanne and implementing a 4 day week. It's these that you can't separate these things. But the the space and the time to be able to work on themselves in their mental health gym allows them to be massively more productive and effective when they are on the pitch, when they are performing. Their work at Tyler Grange. And I think the sports analogy is a really good 1 for this because it's very relatable for people. You know, you'd I I don't get why you think you can work for 8 hours a day for 5 days a week because you definitely can't. These sorts of investments allow you to be super effective, less of the time, and then you produce more than being pretty poor at your job by trying to do it

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:06]:

for 8 hours for 5 days a week. Does that make sense? Yeah. It makes perfect sense. And, again, on people as as well as less absenteeism and people reporting, like, feeling more well within themselves and happy and are you are you catching more smiles around the office?

Simon Ursell [00:26:22]:

Yeah. Sure. I mean, this is turning into the Simon Podcast again. Well, I don't know. You you I'm just well, of course, Suzanne does Suzanne does some great work, but, actually, I wanna know what the impact is. Well, you guys know this. You we we measure fatigue and happiness. We do a mini survey every day via an app at Tyler Grinch where we look at Are people tired? Are people happy? It's super simple. I mean, the the in in and of itself, it's really not that insightful when you look at 1 person's inputs into this. But when you look at the whole of our tribe, the whole of Tyler Grange, and you see happiness going up as a group, it's pretty certain that people are feeling happier. And when we're looking at fatigue dropping as a group, it's I'm pretty certain people aren't as tired and feeling as overwhelmed. See, I've we've got data at Tyler Grange that proves the the work we do with Suzanne and Eleanor, the 4 day week, the investment we make in our culture, and the effort we put into helping people people enjoy being at work, being happy at work, and be effective at work, and and enjoy overcoming obstacles and have great time dealing with things that you might find stressful. That that is we've got some really strong data to back up. That is an actual fact that we that this has worked. So what what what are your thoughts on our mini survey, Susan? Have you had a look at it, by the way?

Suzanne Brown [00:27:51]:

I think I sat down But it was I don't think it was in the fully operational stage. I think it was during when it was being created. And I I was just going to add to what you were saying, Simon, which is that well, I I think the other thing that, again, credit to you because it is something do say to people when I get involved. -- this podcast getting a lot better. At a at a yeah. Awesome. A company or, though, right, at a at the top end of the company is, are you prepared? And I did say this to you. Are you prepared for people to leave the company? Right? And that was something that we we seriously had a chat about because when I've run this course across other organizations, What you are really inviting people to do is that deeper work, right, starting to look at themselves. I've had people say, like, this is not just your standard leadership course or, you know, people get very familiar with the types of courses that they're being put on. And this is very different. This is about going inward. This is about looking at who you are because everything comes through that furnace of who you are. And You said yes. Right? I am prepared for people to leave, and then they did leave. And, actually, we still carried on working. Right? People at that point might have gotten a bit worried, but What Simon and I talked about is that, ultimately, alongside that productivity is you want people that are wanting to be here. Right? Because We know the presenteism is a major issue outside of the 4 day working week, and this is part of that. If people are not motivated to vote today, be there because they're not doing something that actually they are passionate about or that they can find meaning in, And all of our meaning doesn't have to look the same. We can work in the same organization but have different sense of purpose. But that is gonna be an issue. And so people did start to leave, and yet we carried on doing the work. Now you have a a team of people that are really committed to being where they are.

Simon Ursell [00:29:51]:

Absolutely. I mean, III talk about that conversation myself quite a bit because that's really did provoke some really quite some challenging, but real sort of really open my eyes to to some of the actuses, especially around the business world, that are that are really quite nonsensical. That that I mentioned earlier retention of employees, but also the compensation of employees. You know, you're retaining employees. You're you're offering them lots of lovely things to keep them in your organization when Why are you doing that? Why why aren't we finding out what what offering them whatever your culture is, whatever the organization's culture is and offering that and then finding out if that's what they want. And if it's not helping them to go somewhere where they do wanna be, which is what we do. We we help actively help people go and do different things. We've had school teachers. We've had people going to Australia. We've had all sorts of different people going to local authorities and just doing really different things to Tyler Grinch because with some of the work with Suzanne and some of the work we do as an organization to help them understand what they really want out of life. That does mean they leave, and that, I think, can feel terrifying to an organization that obsesses over retention of employees. But what ends up happening is you end up distilling your organization into people who wanna be there. And you also don't spend your time compensating them. And that that word is, when you think about it, bizarre. So you are. What you're basically saying is you're gonna have a really bad time in my organization. And in return, I will compensate you by paying you money and giving you things so that you're put up with it. What what what is that all about? And that word compensation is used all of the time in HR and and business and and lots of different organizations. Isn't that weird? I think I I've I've started I mean, we banned the word compensation at Tiger Ground. Should we ban the word I mean, retention is, you know, something you see advertised on the TV for people who have got, you know, digestive issues. That's not something you should be talking about your your in your organization, is it?

Suzanne Brown [00:32:09]:

Say, Although there might be the parallel. Right? People might be getting picked up. I think we'd be bringing that to work.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:17]:

Couple of couple of things just to to to play back and then a a question for both of you. So, like, I guess, 1 of the things you find it isn't. I imagine Suzanne, it's pretty difficult to bounce back without having a connection, meaning purpose to something. That must be way harder to bounce back. So I guess we're discovering that about people. The second thing is I often ask, like, professional athletes And, Susanna, we were just chatting offline about football. You know, would you do what you do for free? That's amazing how many people say no. Given that that's not the thing where I thought they would find the most meaning of purpose in Germany. So there's a I'll just play that back to you both. But then I guess, like, someone said the other day that the conversation changed changes it. To what extent is, like, these conversations, these emotional fitness gyms that actually changed stuff, like, Maybe from your point of view, Suzanne, in how you've done the course, but also, Simon, like, at the organization, has it changed, like, how we do recruitment? Has it changed? How we do, you know, conversation conversations? Like, I'm just curious as to what extent this this has has gone there's a different way of doing things.

Suzanne Brown [00:33:32]:

To what extent has it changed things? I think from the micro to the macro for me, like, there is nothing greater than I'm thinking about an email I received recently from somebody again, kind of I'll keep it anonymous, but just saying, like, following on from our conversation, I was able to open up to my wife about x, and I've never spoken to her about this. And this has you you will have changed my family for the better for this. Right? Like, that to me, I I've, like, brought tears to my eyes. Like, getting a an email like that is just so profound to me. Like, so so meaningful all the way through to. And and like that, that could be macro. Right? We we could talk about that as a micro, but when we're talking then about leaving your job or, you know, finding then what is it that really sets you on fire. Right? Like, what is it that you are here to do because a vocation is really if we think about, again, the meaning of that word is about a calling. Right? And we've I think at times, we've lost sight of that. But being able to help people refine that even more to find out what is it that I am here to do. Is, again, incredible because you're helping the ripple effect it has on the world. And this is where I think the more people that engage in the emotional fitness gym, I will often get people say to me, you know, how can I get my mom into therapy? How can I get my partner into therapy? And I'll often say, we'll get yourself into therapy, and then what will happen is people will see the changes that that happen and they will want a bit of that. Right? There is nothing quite like seeing somebody profoundly change in front of you and think, well, how have they done that? And I I want a bit of that. So and I and I think that does happen. I think, you know, with the people that I've worked with across organizations, I I don't I will have the data. I don't have to hand, but the amount of people that have then said to me, okay. I want a referral for therapy. And then at some point, shortly, you know, maybe it's a few months down the line. They'll say, okay, my wife would like a referral for therapy or you know? And again, I I just love that. Like, that to me is just the greatest compliment that people come to an emotional fitness session, and they think, do you know what? Psychology isn't that scary. Actually. Because I I do think, you know, it can be very cloak and dagger. Or even if you look at psychology, historically, it has a dark past to it. Right? We did some awful things in the name of psychology, and that has its own ripple effect. But then you start to see that, oh, okay. It's not it's not that scary. And hold on. Everybody in the organization here is attending this session, and we're all sharing. I will often say the bits where people are giving forward, you know, their examples that they've just spoken about. That's the richness because people are able to see that sounds like me, and I resonate with that. So by doing that, by resonating with somebody else's story, you find out something about yourself. And I also say, even for the people that sit there and go, that doesn't sound like me. That's not like my experience at all. You've also found out something about self. So in that sharing, in that community sharing, there's that's so potent for me. And then just to swing back to what Simon talked about, which is about helping people transition out and how that links to resilience in my mind. Is if you think about it at an organizational level, if we were using the example of the the parents earlier on. Right? Like, the child has the parents hopefully, the parents listen to their needs. But what is the organization doing? The organization is listening to the employee, It's not attacking it. It's not humiliating it. It's not, like you said, Simon forcing it to stay forcing the person stay where they are. It's listening to their needs and saying, okay. I'm gonna challenge you here, but I'm gonna believe in you, and maybe this isn't the right place for you. And that that being able to be listened to, being challenged, and being believed is really critical when it comes to thinking about others in our environment and us having agency. And then being able to believe that we've got a sense of agency to change things. And that's so critical when it comes to resilience by

Simon Ursell [00:37:55]:

A hundred percent. And that really resonates with what's happened at Tyler Grange as well because the I mean, you we've had to put on extra 1 on 1 session. So me, Suzanne, because you guys get picked out so much. And, initially, there weren't that many people talking to you. But but a lot of the leadership were weren't we? We were we were coming in and speaking to you, and others were seeing us change and for the better and become much more resilient and emotionally fit and able to bounce back. And then they're thinking, oh, that's interesting. I wonder if I could do that. And then the the lunchtime sessions attracted people to do some 1 on ones, and then people saw them getting better. Say, it builds up this momentum, and you end up with a lot more people seeking out this stuff. I mean, we offer counseling as well alongside so that they can go off and see some other other types of therapy too. So we just we just seen that really grow. And you know, going back to your point about productivity, rusty, and, like, all this time is being spent doing this. We've ended up becoming massively more productive. And in in no small part because of this. To to the point, I would say, when I talk to other organizations that are looking at 4 day weeks and different working patterns. I think building in something like Suzanne and and and Eleanor into an organization would be pretty quick for me. There's a lesson learned about how to be able to do something like a something as as unbelievably brilliant as a 4 day week. Having having this kind of support is is gonna is definitely gonna make it more successful. So it's pretty cool. But, yeah, it builds momentum up. It's like a snowball.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:47]:

I don't know what to say now quite frankly. They're both gushing over each other in the most embarrassing my impossible.

Simon Ursell [00:39:55]:

The how have you found it in other organizations today, Suzanne? I mean, you know, it's been it's been really great and tight arranged. You must have found some organizations that were very resistant and where it hasn't worked. Is that Is is have you got any stories about that?

Suzanne Brown [00:40:10]:

I screen very well, Simon. So for me, I I will always meet with an organization beforehand as you know because I want to work with the people that want to work. So that's not to say I don't meet individuals that are resistant, but I'm very mindful about who I'm engaging with at at a kind of organizational level. So, yeah, I have my own criteria to screen in terms of that motivation and will. And, actually, what's the agenda here? You know, are we it's very different to kind of people wanting to help their staff just to then cover up things that aren't right or aren't ethical that's going on and say, well, we provide a bit of emotional fitness like you said in terms of the compensation part. But inevitably, you will always get resistance. That for me, there is resistance in every single 1 of us. So I I see it as 2 factors. There is the kind of healing potential in people, and there is resistance in people. And they're at different levels depending on what your experiences have been. So you will always have resistant individuals, more so, some people that are very resistant. And then, again, the way that you would deal with that is differently. You know, you might be more confrontational if if I use my model and the language in my model, you're confronting people then with the outcome of their defenses. Right? Like, if you want to hold on to this, well, this is 1 gonna mean for you. If you wanna relinquish it, then this is what, you know, you have to offer the alternative. But, of course, you are still going to have people that are resistant. So And then I I am very accepting. I know, Christy, we've spoken about this. You know? I I remember us having the conversation during COVID about people trying to break into other people's houses. I think it was a conversation that you you quite enjoyed, but this idea that the person has to want to let you in the front door. Right? It's not your job to go around the back or break in through the window or force somebody to do something, and we have to accept that we aren't omnipotent. If somebody chooses to you know, be acquainted with what they're doing that isn't helpful, then make a decision and a choice to continue to do that. They have every right to do that. Right? Like, that's not my job to say otherwise. My bit the critical bit I see as my responsibility is have I helped them see what they are doing because these defenses that you heard me talk about are often outside of our awareness. So people aren't really making an active choice until they're aware of what they're doing. And that would be the same at an organizational level. Right? I would want to help people make the organization aware of their blind spot And then it's up to them. They might choose to keep engaging in that, and that's why I said to you, it's not my job to break down that back door. Neither is it your job in coaching to do that. It's to invite them in. You were talking earlier on about cocreating and collaborative. We ideally work together But I can't do it for you, and I I don't certainly do psychology to people. Right? Somebody says, no. You must see this person. No. I don't collude with that. That would be very inhaled and very unethical. And people would just vote like, people would vote, you know, psychologically. Right? So they would turn up but they would be defiant or they would disengage or you know? And people do that. Right? If you're trying to force somebody to do something, you're taking away their autonomy.

Simon Ursell [00:43:40]:

I mean, it's unbelievably fascinating, and we kinda need to wrap up there. We're trying to ask everybody what their what their 1 killer tip is for bounce back ability. I I kinda it's it's it's obviously, there's so much depth to this. III feel a bit silly to ask you that, but is there 1 is there 1 thing that you'd say if as a if if we wanted to give people a a sort of 1 key takeaway around bounce back ability, what do you think it would be, Suzanne?

Suzanne Brown [00:44:11]:

Yeah. So I think, obviously, there's that difference between the individual and the environment. I think if we're we've done a lot of talking about the environment. So maybe I will lean on this because it it does show that actually just having 1 close connection, 1 close bond with somebody who is considered competent and stable and is attentive to your needs makes the world of difference. So I would say, who is your 1 person? And as you're listening to this podcast right now, why not drop them a text message, drop them a WhatsApp, and let them know that they are your person. Right? Like, reach out, connect with the person that's in your mind, and I invite you both to do the same of who's your who's your go to person. When things get stressful, who do you reach out to?

Simon Ursell [00:45:02]:

Am I allowed to send you both a text? That is that is a very cool That is a very cool takeaway, Suzanne. Rusty, did you wanna close with anything?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:15]:

Yeah. Better text my wife now. The -- Yeah. I just I just actually wrote down in the spirit of old way new life. I wanted to do this really badly. This is what I would do. So I would I I would have ill defined, really long, psychological terms. I would base it upon a deficit model. I wouldn't integrate it. I would do it as 1 off Day 1, I wouldn't introduce Suzanne appropriately, and I've heard lots of psychologists that day 1, they've not been like introduced well, and it's ended badly. The leadership wouldn't do it. So, Simon, you wouldn't be invested in it. You would just be saying it's act it's actually for the muggles. It would be off the shelf. There would be no cocreation. We would just impose a model upon people. It would to use the sports analogy, we just practice off the pitch all the time, and we'd never chat about, like, how it actually helps us be more effective There would be a lack of trust. So someone would say something in a meeting, and it would get used against them. And then the last thing was I would make it compulsory for everyone. So if we wanna do it badly, that's probably what we would do. And sounds like you're doing it the other way around.

Suzanne Brown [00:46:28]:

It's a great summary. Awesome. Thanks so much, guys. Thank you very much for having me.