Back2Basics - Episode 16: Business Mentors, Coaches and Consultants

Feliciano School of Business faculty members in the department of Information Management and Business Analytics, Dr. Mahmoud ElHussini and Dr. George Elias discuss issues and problems being faced by business professionals. On this podcast, they discuss the use of mentors, coaches, and consultants to accelerate your career and business. Dr. Moe and Dr. George breakdown issues and problems being encountered by entrepreneurs, executives, and all levels of managers.

Co-Hosts Background:
  
Mahmoud (Moe) Elhussini, MS, MBA, DBA, is an Instructor Specialist at Montclair State University.  He is also the president and founder of The Growth Coach Allentown - Somerville.  A consulting and business coaching company.  Moe has worked in data & operations management for over a decade.  He then switched to business consulting, helping companies build ERP and customer interface systems.  After that he transitioned into international business development, helping companies manage their internal organic growth or through mergers and strategic alliances.  Moe has published a couple of handbooks, one on emotional intelligence and another on servant leadership.  He is currently working on a third that revolves around overcoming sales objections.  Moe has a BA in Biology from Rutgers University, an MBA in Global Management, and MS in Information Management, and a DBA in Geopolitics and Strategy.  At Montclair University, Moe is part of the Information Management and Business Analytics Department.  He teaches Business Decision Making, Operations Management, and Statistics in Business courses.
  
George Elias, Ph.D., PMP is Chief Systems Engineer for Space and Airborne Systems leading initiatives in integrated spectrum management and mission avionics at L3Harris Technologies. Additionally, Dr. Elias is as an adjunct professor at Montclair State University’s department of information management & business analytics where he teaches business operations and statistics. Dr. Elias is experienced in leading the development and production of complex hardware and software system solutions including: electronic warfare systems, communication systems, and space systems. Previously, Dr. Elias served as the Director of Capture Excellence & Business Development Operations for the Electronic Warfare Sector. As an L3Harris Technologies Certified Enterprise Capture Lead, Dr. Elias was responsible for directing large, complex pursuits across the enterprise. In addition to systems engineering and business development, Dr. Elias has held roles in finance, quality assurance, operations/manufacturing, modeling and simulation, project engineering, program management, and Internal Research and Development (IRAD). Dr. Elias has a Doctorate in Systems Engineering, a Masters Certificate in Project Management, and a Masters in Computer Science from Stevens Institute of Technology. Additionally, Dr. Elias has a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey & New Jersey Institute of Technology. Finally, Dr. Elias has a Mini-MBA from Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Welcome back everyone. To Back to Basics. I am Maui Hussaini and I'm here with my friend, george Elias. How are you, george? How you doing?

Speaker 2: 0:14

Doing great Maui.

Speaker 1: 0:17

Glad to hear that, buddy, we're going okay, weekend going okay.

Speaker 2: 0:23

Yeah yeah, work's been busy, ready for Monday. It's a really nice Sunday. After you're over here, I see you're swinging your back yard. So ready for a podcast.

Speaker 1: 0:39

Sounds good, buddy. Glad to hear that. What do you think? Today, george, we talk about three areas Mentoring, business mentoring, coaching and consulting. Let's talk about where they overlap, if any, and define them, maybe with the objective of pointing out how they can be used, what use a business owner or a business can get out of each one of them.

Speaker 2: 1:14

So I think that's a great idea. But you know, let's just kick this off a little bit. Maybe we're just like talking about what they are.

Speaker 1: 1:23

So I'll tell you.

Speaker 2: 1:25

From my perspective, I've known about mentoring for a very, very long time, even before starting school or starting business. In school I was always told it's important to have good mentors and seek mentors, and I think I know what consultants are. But this whole idea of business coaches is relatively new for me and I know you do coaching Maybe help us out with what is coaching. When would somebody need one? What would they expect to get out of coach? So we can maybe start the conversation there.

Speaker 1: 2:12

Sure, sure, sure. And what to get out of it? It's a good question, what to get out of? It could take a day to answer, right, but let's use a specific example. Try to define it in general terms. When I work with my clients George and coaching I think of it in a way that we're working on changing their mindset or thinking process, and I'll give you an example why I say that.

Speaker 1: 2:40

All of us, in general, studies show that we go through between somewhere 60 and 75,000 thoughts through our mind every day. Right, a lot, a lot. And our mind can process somewhere between two and four thoughts at once, depending on your state of mind. Now, I tend to believe and this is my own personal opinion, I did not read this in any study or anything, but I tend to believe that people that number between two and four thoughts can maybe go down to zero if someone tries to make a decision when they're too happy or too angry, right? I tend to believe that the more you are in control of your emotion, that you will make a more logical, sound decision. So I also believe that emotions can lead to a thought or a thought could lead to an emotion, but either way, that thought or that emotion leads to a behavior, right, an action, and what people will see and by people I mean your client, your customer what they will see is that behavior, so what they may not see what you're thinking or what emotion you may not show your emotion, but they will definitely see how you behave.

Speaker 1: 4:00

So that's what I try to take my clients through a process to make them, to show them what are those blind spots in their personality or in their day to day business that can lead to a thought based upon a misconception, misjudgment, misinterpretation of a situation right. Walk through through that process so that they can better assess what goes through their mind and, as a result, they can behave in a more controlled manner. I'm going to give it back to you in a minute, but I'm just trying to wrap up, like all the main points that I have in mind, to answer your question. I think how we act right Based upon is based upon our experiences, based upon our personality, our genetics, our environment. There's a lot that goes into what triggers our behavior. So I try to look at that overall picture to help my client better understand themselves as a coach, so that whatever it is that we work on can be applied in any line of business that they're in. So I know it's a long answer. What do you think?

Speaker 2: 5:23

I'm absorbing that a little bit. I think it's interesting that you talk about mindset and kind of cognition and the cross section of emotions, right? So I think, like you said, happy or upset. I think also there's other emotions that might affect your ability to make good decisions, like if you feel anxiety or some sort about being rushed or about something important, right, Like you know. So you might start being afraid, like you know, I'm afraid I'm going to miss out, or you know, I think that I think humans and business people are emotional beings. So I think it's very interesting that you talk about emotions. Now, Do you try to get them to remove emotion, or is it more like harnessing the emotion? I'm wondering.

Speaker 1: 6:40

I think it's harnessing. Look, George, I tend to believe there's two kinds of realities our self-reality, how we perceive ourselves, and our work or business reality, right, Like what is it? The environment that we're working on. Within those two realities, there are I don't want to say good and bad. I want to say there's tendencies. We have tendencies that lead to us, for example, to be motivated in what we do or kind of like what you said, to have what we call like a bad day, right, Like a dominant fear, something that happens that leads to us having a bad experience or a bad day. So I think those emotions I don't want to say it, we're human, right, we're all like humans, are very emotional animals we have we have good emotions, we have bad emotions, we have strong emotions, weak emotions. So I don't really think it's more about eliminating it or pushing it way, way, way deep, deep, deep down. I just think it's, like I said, harnessing it, controlling it to use it in the right way, right?

Speaker 1: 7:47

Some people like to be to show emotions that they love somebody or they like to be loved. There's nothing wrong with it. Some other people like a good challenge, a good risk. We're not going to stop that right, but knowing, for example, people that like to have someone with a dominant personality, that likes to take a risk. Yes, exactly like what you said harness it, take a risk, but to a certain limit. Don't take too many risks where you lose control of the situation. People that like to share their emotions, share it in a good, healthy way, but not to an extent where the other person becomes uncomfortable. Make sense.

Speaker 2: 8:26

No, I think that's great. So when should somebody seek out a coach? What does that look like? Trying to identify that, hey, I'm in a situation where I could benefit from coaching and or I really need coaching, right? What are those signs that somebody would see that they should seek out a coach?

Speaker 1: 8:56

Let me answer you this question with a question, george, if you I think of a coach, different from a consultant, which we can talk about later a coach, like I said, helps you so that you're actually doing everything right. I'm giving guidance, I'm giving like little aha moments, light bulb moments, but you actually do all the work right To self-improve continuously. If we use, if we compare this to a coach at a gym, where you go to the gym and you tell the coach, coach, I want to feel better, feel good about myself, I want to be healthy, right and the coach tells you things to do and you do them, is there any point in your life where you think you don't need to go to the gym or that you don't think you could use a coach at a gym to train you, a trainer?

Speaker 2: 9:54

I think it depends, so I'll compare it. Let's say, you know, whereas you know just general fitness at the gym or even like a runner right.

Speaker 1: 10:08

I'll say a runner.

Speaker 2: 10:10

So I'll say it depends on the level that you'd want to achieve. If you're a runner and you, you know you run on a consistent basis and you even have some skills where you can even self-coach yourself, yes, right, where you can recognize that you need I don't know, I'll just make it up either more endurance or more speed or different stride or cadence. You can work on your running yourself.

Speaker 2: 10:41

But I do recognize that, as someone that runs and trains, sometimes you may hit a plateau and you might want to seek somebody else that has expertise that might see your running form and give you suggestions to make better results. Or if you're at the gym and you're plateauing and you're not like exactly not feeling your team it might make sense to get a trainer. So I exactly in that sense, I could see that. So is it? Is it that a business person is saying to themselves I might be hitting a plateau or I may not be doing as good as I want, and that's why you'd go for a coach?

Speaker 1: 11:21

There you go Exactly. That's kind of like we were meeting at the intersection that I wanted us to meet at. It's that you're hitting a plateau. You're you're getting too confident or too confident what you're doing Right. So you need that little shake up, you know that little nudge to see, like I said before, questioning not questioning, but doing a quick self discovery. Or, like you said, if you're a runner and everything is going great, right, you just do a quick stop in the middle, check in with somebody to make sure there's no blind spots, there's nothing that you're missing or something that can maybe make you do what you're doing better Right, that would be it Meaning. It's not something that you would necessarily need for the rest of your life, as long as you run or as long as you run your business right, run at a gym or run your business, but every now and then I don't think it would hurt where you check in with somebody to just make sure you're not missing anything. There's nothing out there that can make you do what you're doing in a more efficient or effective manner right, doing more with less resources, with less energy, so that you can redirect your focus and your energy into other things.

Speaker 1: 12:32

So, to answer your original question, I think you need a coach, or people might consider using a coach at any point in their career just to do a quick evaluation of what they're doing right now. They might sit with the coach and tell them you know what? Everything is great. I sit with clients where we don't work together. I tell them you don't need me now, or you don't need me yet. Or with your line of business, I don't think I can help you, right?

Speaker 1: 13:00

So there's times where you do sit with a client. Maybe they need your help and maybe they don't. You don't create a situation to create a need. They need help or they do not, right? So some people do, some do not. But I don't think it ever hurts to just have a quick consultation and I'm not saying this, you know to come to me with any coach that you have and be at a life coach, a business coach, a financial coach, whatever coach it may be. It does not hurt to just take a quick pause to reach out, have a dialogue, a conversation, and leave from it knowing that, okay, you know what I'm good at this point. Or, yeah, maybe I should think about doing ABC.

Speaker 2: 13:44

So so what's interesting? And you know, I want to bring in the whole mentor thing now, right, I think that another option for some people is mentoring and you know, to me there's the classical mentoring where you know you're trying to find a mentor that is maybe ahead of you and maybe career or business or position, where they're in a position to where you can learn from how they got, from their experience and where they went. Maybe that mentor can help you with you know get exposure, or you know get invited to things that you normally wouldn't, or you know kind of speak some truth into your situation and help encourage you or discourage you. You know, when appropriate.

Speaker 1: 14:35

And what?

Speaker 2: 14:36

I mean by that is sometimes. You know, I mentor a number of earlier and career individuals and students and sometimes they have concepts about the situation or concepts about themselves and their path and where they're at and I might, depending on it. I try not to give direct advice, but I try to help them, like you said. You know we're saying with coaching I help them, try to think through their situation. Sometimes that means asking them further questions or even playing a little devil's advocate. So you think you're ready for that position. What have you done to get ready or what makes you think that right?

Speaker 2: 15:18

But, unlike coaching, I've encouraged people to always seek out mentors, whether they're more formal or even peer mentors. So I'll give you an example. We talked about getting a new career. I believe that if you come into a new organization, you should be trying to seek out peer mentors so they can show you the ropes a bit, that already know how things work, and you should be seeking out more senior mentors that you can learn about the organization that you're in. So I think having one or more mentors is a healthy thing for everybody. What do you think about that?

Speaker 1: 16:07

No, I was going to ask you. I agree with you, but I want to ask you, george. So for us to separate a coach from a mentor, how would you we kind of like define the coach? How would you define then the mentor? What would the mentor be? And you can even use the gym analogy or just your own analogy. So if we have that coach at the gym, what would that mentor be?

Speaker 2: 16:32

Yeah, so to me the mentor is maybe somebody at the gym that you know of fitness level and some aspect is better than you. You might just walk up to say, hey, could you give me some advice? I noticed you do the arm curls this way. Could you show me why you're doing that? And a lot of people will give you that free advice. Yeah, I do it this way because of such and such. Or they may say, hey, that's a more advanced type thing. You work up to it this way, so a lot of people are willing to give free advice.

Speaker 2: 17:10

I mentioned running. I think a mentor in running might be somebody that you know maybe runs faster or further than you and you would like to have the opportunity. They even say, hey, you might train me one day. Or you might ask them hey, how did you build up to that speed? And I do that often. There's a guy at work that is a really great runner and I asked him how did he work up to speed? He says, oh, interval training. And he explained to me how he'll do running intervals with faster and faster paces mixed in with slower pace, and it works. You start training your body to move a little faster. So to me that's more the mentor, where the coach is somebody that might not be the runner but knows how to tell you how to run Right and can analyze it. They may not be in your business and coming outside, but they understand the tools and the dynamics and how to act.

Speaker 2: 18:20

And I think a little bit different than a mentor.

Speaker 1: 18:23

So the yes, I agree. So the mentor is someone that has the experience in your field of interest, whatever it is that you need the mentor for, right, that it will be safe to say so.

Speaker 2: 18:37

Yeah, I would say that I mean. There's other aspects of what makes a good mentor that we can talk about one day. But I typically they would have some aspect of what you want to be.

Speaker 1: 18:52

Yes. Now let's add a third angle to this triangle Consulting. How I see the consultant right as someone, george versus the coach. The consultant is more hands on, right. So, different than the mentor or the coach, the consultant will come look at your business right, they're an expert in your business. They look at what you're doing. For example, your sales are staggering or your sales seem as underperforming. So they come in to actually be involved in the day-to-day operations right, so they're more hands on. How do you view a consultant versus a mentor or a coach?

Speaker 2: 19:44

Yeah, so you know, this is where, like I think, the gym or running analogy breaks down a little bit, because, yes a business like that is is a team sport.

Speaker 2: 19:56

Right, it's not, if not necessarily just an individual, so there's some break down there. But I would say a consultant is somebody where you have a recognized limit or problem in your business or a lack of something and you're bringing them in to solve it for you. Right, I need some HR discipline or HR policies or procedures, or I need a HR information solution. Right, I would bring in an HR consultant or IT consultant, depending on what the exact issue is to help me solve that in my business. And that could look like many ways.

Speaker 2: 20:47

Right, it could be an accounting issue, it could be business process issue, it could be moral issue. Right, there's a lot of. But to me, the consultant comes with the solution and isn't just talking to you about how you solve the problem.

Speaker 1: 21:03

Exactly, exactly, exactly, and I lost my train of thought. What was I going to say? Yes, he comes with a specific solution and, like you said is, I think he's much closer to you in the day-to-day operation than the coach or mentor would be. What are go ahead? What were you going to say?

Speaker 2: 21:30

No, I think they'll close to you in the solution that they're providing.

Speaker 1: 21:36

Exactly.

Speaker 2: 21:37

Mostly because they're responsible for the implementation.

Speaker 1: 21:42

There you go. Yep, that's correct, yes, yes, yes, have you had any good mentoring or consulting experiences at work in your career that you can share so people can get an idea of an example of what you know, a real mentoring scenario that took place?

Speaker 2: 22:07

So, um, so I'll. I'll kind of like let me talk about consultants first.

Speaker 1: 22:18

Okay.

Speaker 2: 22:20

I not all consultants but at least my experience with consultants has been that there's a set of solutions that they're used to bring in, make a good effort in certain types of solutions.

Speaker 2: 22:37

So when you hire a consultant to solve your issue, you should probably interview multiple competing solutions, because when you hire a consultant, they're going to, they're going to want to bring on the type of solution that they're used to. So I'll I'll like, for instance, an IT consultant. If you know, if you need, you know an ERP system, right brought into your business because you're growing and now you're realizing you need, you know a full suite of, you know a tool to run it, so you need an ERP system. So if you hire a consulting firm to help you with that, most likely they're going to come with their solution that they like to implement. So you know it goes hand in hand. So you need to talk to them about what they're going to do and what their plans are during an interviewing process. So, because the solution will depend on who you pick, in a sense, right, because you have certain number T, so you really need to vet them very well prior to hiring them.

Speaker 1: 23:53

So you don't want kind of like that like you don't want that like kind of like cookie cutter approach where you know what, we just have one template and we apply it, no matter what you want, to make sure that they are really tailoring the solution to your needs.

Speaker 2: 24:09

I think that what happens is you're buying a solution when you hire the consultant to a certain extent, so you really need to understand how they work and what their plans are prior to bringing them in, because once they're in house, you know things can happen that maybe you didn't expect and I've seen a lot of consulting go wrong because the client didn't understand what they were signing up for and their misunderstandings. So I think you know being upfront about your business and what you, what's acceptable and not acceptable, and getting from the consultant their plan so you can vet it before they start is very important.

Speaker 1: 24:54

You know what, george? Hold on, because you just bought up a really, really interesting point which I talk about sometimes in my classes, right? So I hire you as a consultant to come help me do something. Right? You start with me and it turns out that what you're doing as my consultant is not solving the problem. Is that your fault as a consultant, that you didn't ask the right questions to figure out what I need? Or is it my fault that I didn't explain myself well to you from the beginning? Do you see what I mean? So, at the end, who does this apply to? That where the customer is always right, no matter what? Or the fact that I was incompetent to explain myself means that you should have asked more questions?

Speaker 2: 25:44

Yeah. So I hate to say it this way because I really like the customer's always right aspect of it. But I would say you're both probably culpable.

Speaker 1: 25:54

Agreed.

Speaker 2: 25:55

So this is the way I see things. Really speaking, the person who has the greater knowledge is probably more responsible.

Speaker 1: 26:03

There you go.

Speaker 2: 26:03

So right. Yes, now here's the issue the consultant has more knowledge about their solution, but you likely have more knowledge about your business. About the problem, about the problem. So, since you didn't both have a good conversation, that's not good, right? And a warning sign to me is, if a consultant comes to me and all they want to talk about is their solution and they don't want to know about my problem, that's a warning sign that I'm going to get a solution that may or may not solve my problem.

Speaker 1: 26:44

Yeah, that's why I think the takeaway from what you just said and I agree with that, I know we're not going to probably run out of time, we can continue talking about mentoring later, but a key, very, very, very, very important takeaway from this is that you need to always relate to the client, understand their need, ask the questions, Just like you said. The client knows the problem, but it's up to you to dig out those answers and figure out the problem. So you need to ask all the questions that you can so that you really do figure out what the problem is before you advance the tailored solution. Right, figure out what that need is what the problem is first, and it's on you, mr Consultant, to ask as many questions as need be to figure out, to get a full picture of what the problem is, before you commit to anything.

Speaker 2: 27:31

Yeah, and that's very different than mentoring right, I do think that you should interview before you.

Speaker 2: 27:40

Really, if you're going to do a full formal mentor exercise, you really should have almost an interview with that mentor before you jump in and give them that piece of you. But I will say you asked about a positive mentoring experience. I have had some. I've had them at work a lot. I've had them in school with professors and teachers. I've had some really excellent relationships like that. But I will say the best ones I've had are the ones that have helped me think through issues where I was emotionally blind to something.

Speaker 2: 28:25

Like you said, your emotions can stop you from thinking about things straight, and sometimes emotions like fear or insecurity or even arrogance can cloud your thinking, and I think the best mentors I've had have really helped me think through where I need to go.

Speaker 1: 28:54

Yes, and to add on to that one last piece before we wrap up or I'll give it back to you it is sometimes also a good idea to get a mentor that has somewhat of a different personality than you. So, just like what you said, they give you that different perspective that you don't see, or they see things from a different lens. So both of you together, you compliment each other. I think that helps too.

Speaker 2: 29:22

So I really like that. I know we're running out of time, but how about we pick up on mentoring specifically next?

Speaker 1: 29:30

time.

Speaker 2: 29:31

Let's just think through how do you find a good, compatible mentor thing for?

Speaker 1: 29:38

that nature and what makes a good mentor. Yeah, I think I would love to hear more about your end, because you've had a lot of experience in that area, a lot of interactions in it, so I think it'll benefit the listener to hear more about it. So, yeah, let's definitely do that, george. Great conversation, as always, man. Thanks for sharing your experiences and your perspective on this.

Speaker 2: 30:05

Same here, mo, I really respect your opinion and what you're doing with coaching I think it's a really good thing. Thank you. No, awesome, so listen. Thank you all for listening to this episode of Back to Basics on the Business Edge, brought to you by Feliciano School of Business at Montclair State University. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and welcome any feedback you have for us, including suggestions for future topics.

Speaker 1: 30:37

Thank you, george, thank you to all the listeners and see you next time on the Back to Basics podcast. Take care, george.

Speaker 2: 30:46

Thank you, sir, take care, bye, bye.