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The Business Edge
The Business Edge
Talk Smart: Speaking with Power & Poise
Communications coach Simon de Deney shares his journey from acting to helping people become better communicators, offering practical techniques to overcome presentation anxiety. His unique background provides valuable insights into how theater techniques can transform business presentations and help people engage audiences more effectively.
• The fear of public speaking stems from the emotional intensity and vulnerability it creates
• Presentation nerves can be managed through "inside out" (mental focus) and "outside in" (physical techniques) approaches
• Choose a positive word like "inspire" or "entertain" to guide how you want to come across
• Square breathing (4 counts in, hold 4, out 4, hold 4) reduces anxiety and improves vocal quality
• Body language signals confidence—avoid protective postures or overcompensation
• Stand in the "classical position" with relaxed posture as your default stance
• The "I'm important, you're important" mindset creates balanced presenter-audience connection
• Our brains evolved to learn through stories—"storytelling is learning for free"
• Perfect your opening and closing lines since audiences remember first and last impressions
• Record practice sessions and review them with a friend for valuable feedback
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He is a communications coach. He is an author, a writer and a professional actor, and his name is Simon Dedenne.
Speaker 2:We learn as a species, we have an experience, we're affected by it. It either rewards or potentially punishes us and we remember that the good emotion or the bad emotion stays with us. And that kind of is what stories are, because it's basically taking that learning experience and giving it to somebody else is basically taking that learning experience and giving it to somebody else.
Speaker 1:Hello and welcome to the Business Edge brought to you by the Feliciano School of Business here at Montclair State University. I'm Gail Yash and I'll be your host for this podcast. If you're someone who struggles with public speaking maybe you have some nerves or you just need to engage your audience more this podcast is for you. I am thrilled here today to have a guest. He is a communications coach, he is an author, a writer and a professional actor, and his name is Simon Dedenne. Simon, welcome to the Business Edge.
Speaker 2:Great to be here.
Speaker 1:Simon, can you tell our audience a little bit about yourself and how you came to do the things that you're doing, because your background is wonderful?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I kind of never intended to do this and I never intended to become an actor either. So I guess, yeah, taking yourself by surprise is possibly a good thing. I mean, I originally I went to university and I was going to be a writer and then I started doing a little bit of singing in Gilbert and Sullivan on stage, and the Oxford University Gilbert and Sullivan Society had a slight imbalance in the sexes. They were like three men and about 40 women, really. So the chances of you getting a solo part as a man were pretty high, and so I started doing this thing and I thought I really love this. Yeah, this is really exciting. I'm kind of getting a real buzz out of this, and I auditioned for some more plays and I got more parts and I thought I'll try this I want to see if I can actually do this.
Speaker 2:And I applied to drama school and I was applied to advertising agencies and I got into a couple advertising agencies and I thought that's fine, I'm gonna do this and it's exciting and it's creative and I can also do the writing and I'm not starving to get out somewhere. And then, three weeks before my final exams, I got a letter from a drama school saying we will see you in September for the postgraduate course, your complete works of Shakespeare and your dancing jockstrap and your tap shoes. And I went oh my God, what am I going to do? And I was really really fast, had everything was kind of sorted and just came out of the blue. I really kind of looked deep and thought I've only just been doing this and maybe for there are people who actually they will ask themselves a question, they will just say that is for me. They said, no, forget that, stick with.
Speaker 2:So I went and I worked in advertising three years. I learned about marketing and I learned about communications and all sorts of things. But I still thought I wonder if I should be doing this. And at the time I guess I was about 24, 25, I thought I can't reach 30, which is like an incredibly old age and not at least have tried it, yeah. So I applied again to drama school and I got in. I'm in the two 30, which is like an incredibly old age, yeah, and not at least have tried it, yeah, yeah. So I applied again to drama school and I got in and went to your course and I remember arriving at drama school and the first week going I've arrived home. Yeah, it kind of felt like home, that's great so that's kind of what happened.
Speaker 2:So, as you can see, that like right from the start, there's a kind of mix in terms of a kind of commercial thing going on, but also the acting thing going on. And because the great thing about being an actor and just as a kind of side story, when I was making the decision about the second time to become an actor, my girlfriend at the time was actually a theatrical agent and I remember saying to her I'm actually really, really excited about this change of career and she looked at me with one eyebrow raised and said it's not a career, it's an occasional occupation and that's the great thing about acting it gives you a chance to do other things in your life. So I also used to do graphic design when I wasn't acting. I used to do copywriting when I wasn't acting. I used to do copywriting when I wasn't acting.
Speaker 2:And in 2003, I went off to Romania through a long, very, very dark story, which I won't bore you with now, and started to do some role-play work, working in a kind of simulation, working with a big international consultancy out there kind of simulation, working with a big international consultancy out there and working basically helping people become better team workers, better leaders, better communicators, and I really enjoyed it and I remember the um, the first it was it sounds tiny, it sounds absolutely tiny, but at the end of the kind of simulation we were asked to give feedback to all the people we were there that we've been working with and I remember saying so tell me what you think yeah how was it for you?
Speaker 2:and the guy who was organizing said that's a great question. I thought, hey, maybe this is something that, yeah, you know I should be doing. So I started in role play and started doing presentation skills. I've got interested in storytelling and creative writing, all sorts of things, and for the last 20 years, when I've not been doing acting or audiobooks and all that kind of thing, I've been working with lots of different people, helping them become better communicators.
Speaker 1:So now I teach business communications and so many students struggle with nerves, with presenting or how to engage the audience. So I have some questions I do want to ask you, but before we get into that, why do people struggle so much with presentations like what is it about that people are so fearful of it and they hate it? Many people, not all people.
Speaker 2:I mean I think you're right, I think that it's. What's fascinating is that I mean I've had people who, um, when you're working with them, are on the verge of tears.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:And you kind of give them the skills and technique and they catch you afterwards and they are so grateful because you kind of give them a skill that they didn't have before and you give them the confidence that they didn't have before as well. I think it's just the pressure, the intensity is huge and I think it's also because it goes very deep in terms of the kind of emotions that it stirs within people. I mean, just as a kind of silly thing. As you mentioned in the introduction, I work as a writer and director and as an actor and so, depending on what I've been doing at the time, I'll introduce myself as a writer and director and actor to people.
Speaker 2:People get writer and director but if you say you're an actor, yeah, it's a bit different, you're somehow a bit strange, uh. And like people kind of go oh, you're an actor, yeah, or you're a thespian in some way, and there's a, there's a slight kind of sense of distance in yeah, because actors deal with messy stuff, they deal with emotions, they deal with all kind of complicated things and it feels like it's something that is yeah, it's a bit strange. Why would you want to go and do that? And when people are presenting. They feel like they're going into this territory. That doesn't feel comfortable yeah that is not safe.
Speaker 2:Where I say the emotional, the emotions are running very high, um, and that is uncomfortable and I think that's why people get nervous, because it's it's very intense, it's under pressure and it deals with.
Speaker 1:That brings up all sorts of emotions of people that normally have to deal with so do you feel that your theater background and your acting background helps you in that regard?
Speaker 2:yeah, completely. It's like, uh, but what? What is great, I think, is that you don't necessarily have to spend two years of drama school to be a great presenter. You can give people the techniques very quickly within half a day or a day to kind of make them feel better. I mean, nobody's going to make complete dramatic change overnight. But actually if you video people and you show them what they're doing and you give them some feedback and you give them all the techniques and at the end of the course, the workshop, whatever you video them again, it's incredible how quickly that's great, and then they get the confidence, probably, and they get the confidence.
Speaker 1:Yeah, doing yeah so when I talk to my students they they gave me a list and the number one is I'm so nervous when I get up there I forget everything I'm about to say. So how can we help people when they're in that situation where their nerves just get the best of them and all the physiological things happen heart rate goes up, sweaty palms, shaking knees. What tips might you give to someone who's got that kind of feeling? I mean?
Speaker 2:first of all, I'd say that everyone feels like that, yeah, and Michael Caine has got a great quote about actors. He said any actor who tells you that they're not nervous before they go on stage or on the camera is either lying or dead. So it's a completely natural thing. I think that's important to remember that that everyone goes through it. You're not unique when you feel like that. But I think there are two ways in particular, and they approach the problem from completely opposite points.
Speaker 2:As actors, you often talk about working inside, out and outside in, meaning that you can either think about what the character's feeling and how they you know what their emotions are and that will change how you are physically. So if you feel I'm very nervous, then you probably start doing things like with your hands that look like nervous mannerisms, that kind of stuff. Um, so the inside affects the outside. Or you can work outside in. You can change physically how you're standing. You can maybe alter your voice in some way, um, you can do different hand gestures and that will make you feel differently. So that's working outside in. And in terms of what you just asked me in terms of the, you know that those nerves you get when you step up there.
Speaker 2:I think there are two really good tips that work well I'd say work out of all the stuff we're going to do. One is the if you come up with a word, that is how you want to come across in the audience. Now, words like angry and scary okay, and nervous, are probably not great choices. But words like inspire, entertain, charm, excite, reass those kind of words they're positive and they're active and they're about focusing on the impact you want to have on the audience. So, apart from the fact that you will then come across more like that word that you choose, more exciting.
Speaker 1:So it's like changing how you think about the presentation. Yeah, there's a great quote from Dr Wayne Dyer change the way you look at things and the things you look at change. So if it's changed the way you see that presentation and not focus on the nerves, how you're feeling, give yourself those other words, change the script, then you'll present. Maybe the nerves will go down absolutely.
Speaker 2:But the fact that when it's because you play a game where you, you you ask people to come up and they choose a word at random and they've got a little their speech in the manner of the word and the audience have got to actually guess what the word is. And two things are extraordinary first of all, that people do it well. They have been given no time to prepare. They're not actors, but if you ask them to do their speech nervously or friendily or inspiringly, they will do it like that. And the second thing is the audience will guess the word always or get it very, very close. They'll say just with that one word you can transform how you come across. But the other thing as well which is good about that technique is it takes the pressure off you because you're not thinking about you, you're thinking about the impact of having on the audience. So again, that release some of the nerves. That's the kind of inside out thing. The outside in thing that works really well is and it's really simple but it's very powerful is breathing and breathing deeply.
Speaker 2:And there are loads of great breathing exercises and everyone should kind of choose the one that works for them, the one that I find works really well is actually a yoga exercise called square breathing. Basically, you breathe in for a count of four, you hold your breath for a count of four, breathe out for four, hold you do that, maybe say four times, and it does three things. First of all, it does relax you because you're slowing down your breathing and slowing down your heart rate so you feel more relaxed. Also, the process of doing that makes you concentrate on just that rather than all the kind of stuff going around you. So you again it kind of helps take away that pressure.
Speaker 2:The other thing which is great about it is it means you're because you're breathing more, because the way we much we produce our voices is through the breath, going through the vocal cords which vibrate, and then we resonate in the different kind of slightly empty body cavities. It gives your, your resonance a kind of deeper tone. So you sound more confident. Again, you feel more confident, but you also it just feels more relaxed. It's a warmer tone. So in terms of engaging with your audience, they're more likely to warm to you because you've got that kind of like deeper, baser tones going on it is amazing how the physiology affects the emotions.
Speaker 1:So I have noticed people. They forget to breathe and then they feel short of breath, and then they and it snowballs right it goes into a whole thing. Yeah, so this idea of focusing on the physiology to help, then the feeling about it and then the delivery, and you mentioned some non-verbal. You mentioned the non-verbal, so the body posture maybe, or the gestures. Are there tips that you can give with certain types of the way you should stand or the way you should stand to make you feel more confident?
Speaker 2:a lot of the time, people, you know again, because you're under pressure, um, the very kind of primeval emotions start coming up and it you feel as though you're kind of under attack and the the kind of response that our ancestors had, um was to the our natural predators, which were wild dogs, bingos, wolves, jackals, um would be to try and protect the areas that they would go for, and they tend to go from the neck or the groin, okay, because that's what most vulnerable.
Speaker 2:So what we tend to do when we're under stress, under pressure, when we're about to present, is we tend to protect that. So a lot of the time we do one of two things Either we'll kind of like, make ourselves smaller, okay, and hide those kind of parts of our body, play with our faces, that kind of stuff, okay, just to kind of keep that going. We'll put our hands here, hands in front, that kind of thing. Or we'll do the other thing, which is to kind of go, you know again, if you're being attacked by dogs, you're going to go. Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough, okay and you're going to make yourself much bigger.
Speaker 2:So you go, you overcompensate, so you'll open up your whole body and basically kind of go, I'm not afraid of you. Okay, I'm exposing everything because actually I'm stronger than you. And that also is a kind of giveaway. When people kind of swagger on stage, you can tell that actually it's betraying the nerves.
Speaker 2:So, if you can, if you can have, there's a thing in acting, when you learn acting called the classical position, where basically you stand with your feet underneath your knees, underneath your hips, your back's relaxed, and you're basically just your hands by your side, completely open, and it's say it's not closed in, it's not compensated by being too open, and it's just very relaxed. And that is a as a kind of position that you take up, as a, as you know, a kind of default position doesn't mean you can't. I mean you should be moving your hands around, your arms around using the stage, the space, wherever you're working, but as a kind of default position, as a kind of like because I'm here, I'm feeling confident, I'm feeling relaxed. That's a great way to be able to start.
Speaker 1:Because then if you feel that way, then you're going to have that emotion that I'm confident.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:So that physical position, that's the outside, in bit again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not the fake it till you, make it kind of thing, but just make yourself feel feel confident if I, if I stand in a position that I am feeling taller, then I feel more confident.
Speaker 1:But that's really the kind of the fake it till. You make it because um and again.
Speaker 2:It's almost like kind of thing about imposter syndrome yes um, and I remember reading um, there's a british director, really great great British director, paul Richard Eyre, who used to run the National Theatre in the UK, and I read his diaries, called National Service, about his time in the National Theatre and they are a great source of high class gossip about actors. Okay, it's a fantastic read and it's also like kind of short chapters, so again, you can like read it a bit at night and just read a few. And the fascinating thing was he is one of the UK's greatest theatre directors and every press night that he had it was clear he couldn't watch the performance. He'd be behind the audience pacing up and down, really, because he was terrified that this time he'd be found out. Yeah, and I think that that's important. Remember, everyone feels that they are imposter in some way and again, like the whole you know, accepting that you're nervous because everyone feels nervous as well.
Speaker 2:Um, so actually it's, it's just a completely natural thing so just embrace it just so you just just embrace it, yeah, but I think that the again the thing about the choosing the word that focuses your kind of positive active word, I think that the again the thing about the choosing the word that focuses you, a kind of positive active word, I think that can help in terms of, you know, actually, can.
Speaker 2:I fake it till you make it. There's another exercise, which is quite good too, but you get an inside out one where which is called I'm important, you're important. Again, it goes to this idea that sometimes, when people are on stage stage they kind of defend themselves and to get rid of the nerves they'll kind of go I am so important, okay, and they will just again big themselves up and alienate the audience because they're kind of thinking of though they're, they're not as good as them. Uh, there's a whole that kind of terrible old story about you know, if you ever go for an interview, people kind of say imagine people naked.
Speaker 1:You know, I never like that advice.
Speaker 2:That's so ridiculous, right, exactly, yeah, you don't have to do that um, or you do the opposite thing. Where you're going to go, you know I'm, I'm, I'm nothing, I'm insignificant, and the audience is incredibly important and you know, if you're in an interview, that's probably true. You don't if you're feeling as though they've got you know your career and you're left in their hands. But again, it's a kind of an inside thing, an emotional thing, an intellectual thing. If you go, I'm important, you're important, and you kind of walk on stage or the presentation hall or wherever you are, without thought that you know you have value as a person and what you're about to do, and the audience have value. It's a great way, okay, both to feel good about yourself, but also to engage with the audience as well.
Speaker 1:And there's no power issue there. It's not like I'm better, or, oh my gosh, they're judging me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, absolutely right.
Speaker 1:So you talked about the nonverbal. What about verbal techniques to project your voice? A lot of students might say they come up and they're so nervous they can't get the voice out or they can't even reach the back of the room with their voice. So what are some verbal techniques?
Speaker 2:um. Singing is good what if you can't sing because I can't uh, everyone can sing oh, you haven't heard me, simon okay, after this podcast we're gonna have to do this um, we're gonna go and find a bar somewhere and we'll kind of karaoke and we're going to.
Speaker 1:That's trouble.
Speaker 2:That's the rest that's the big one. Um, the I mean, I mean seriously singing is great, because to sing you have to. Obviously it's like speaking on a continuous note, so actually it requires more breath and the breath again like I'm saying before with the square breathing thing is key. So if you, if you're really, you know, using a diaphragm and you're really breathing deeply, then your voice will naturally sound better. There's a kind of very easy technique where you, you can just go and practice in the room.
Speaker 2:You, you know you're about to present in, and it's not about shouting, but it's just about it's. It's weird because you know where you kind of go. It shouldn't work because know where's the science behind it. But if you just, when you're talking, you imagine your voice is hitting the back of the room, it will, without necessarily you straining or, let's say, shouting, you know it just tends to work as a thing. That's a great technique. But also, I mean, particularly nowadays, you know, people are often presenting not just in front of huge halls, but they're presenting in a meeting room or presenting on Zoom in some way, and that becomes less of an issue, obviously.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so you do consulting with storytelling, I know. Tell the audience here about storytelling and how to engage your audience with a message that tells a story.
Speaker 2:How long have you got?
Speaker 1:I know right, but that's where have you got?
Speaker 2:I know right.
Speaker 1:But that's where. That's the presentation skills today. Right, that's how to connect with your audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was again the same way. I was saying, you know, I kind of wasn't necessarily ever going to be an actor, I was never going to be a communications coach, I hadn't really got an interest or a kind of knowledge of storytelling. But now I completely love it and I'm passionate about storytelling. Um, but when I first started looking into it I was puzzled because it seemed that a lot of the stuff that was written um made assumptions about what a good story was, and there was almost a sense that storytelling was something that maybe great writers, great screenwriters did, but it wasn't necessarily something that everybody could do. That, you know, being creative, telling stories was in some way special and I thought I don't believe that there must be something. If people are touched by stories and we know they are touched by stories all the time there must be something going on that, almost scientifically, you can work out yeah and just at that time I was getting into this kind of like what's going on mode.
Speaker 2:Um, a lot of work in terms of evolutionary psychology and in terms of neuroscience was uncovering you know how we evolved as a species and also what our brains were doing. Um, and the evolutionary psychology is great because it kind of gives you the kind of big picture about why, why our brains might have evolved to actually be adapted to story, and the neuroscience kind of backs it up. So there's a kind of thing about, like, when we have experiences. They talk about neurons that fire together, wire together, but if you have an emotional experience, the neurons are in the brain and you can remember that in some way and you can see that in terms of the way in which we learn as a species. You know we have an experience, we're affected by it, either kind of rewards or it potentially punishes us, and we remember that.
Speaker 2:The good emotion or the bad emotion stays with us and that kind of is what stories are, because it's basically taking that learning experience and giving it to somebody else. So our brains have adapted to respond when people it talks about a particular, they don't talk about a particular story. So if you know I've been attacked by somebody, uh, in any way, and I'm I'm telling that story. I will go through that emotional experience and you, listening to me, because your brain has evolved to learn about this will also feel the same way and you will probably feel that you won't go down that alleyway. Yeah, yeah, so we learn. I mean, storytelling is basically learning for free.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is. I was saying the challenge that some of the students have that they share with me is that they have a message they have to give, they have to tell something, and then maybe we can have them figure out a story they have to give. They have to tell something and then maybe we could have them figure out a story they want to give to their audience. But in a business presentation, a lot of students will say to me how do I stay present? Because when I'm starting, I practice, I prepare, but when I start to share whatever I have to share, I forget I'm. I'm not present in the moment. My mind goes to other things, like they're looking at me, they're judging me, so how any tips for helping a student or anyone stay present in their presentation focused on the message and giving it, not how they're being perceived?
Speaker 2:um, well, the technique I've mentioned at the beginning, the thing about choosing the word again, focusing not on you but on some. And if you, and again in the same way, we're saying that, you know, everyone feels nervous, everyone feels under pressure, everyone feels as though they're an imposter, probably everyone at some point is going to fluff it, they're going to make a mistake and again, you just accept that and live with that because, everyone does it and it's not a big deal.
Speaker 2:So, again, being able to forgive yourself and knowing it's going to happen, knowing that the, the audio visual is not going to work, yeah, knowing that suddenly there's a firearm, whatever, uh, and that's the kind of excuse, like something might go wrong it always does I expect it to happen, right yeah and and I got that question from a lot of students what happens if I forget?
Speaker 1:what happens? And I said, well, what's the worst that could happen? So you forget. Your audience will probably help you if you say I well, I was just talking about, what was I just talking about? And you hope someone says, oh, you were saying whatever, yeah, absolutely so just to be lighter on yourself, forgive yourself Completely.
Speaker 2:Also, I mean just on a very basic level. I mean having cards. So if you try and learn something, that's generally not a great idea yeah, generally not a great idea because you know you're kind of worrying about having to learn it and being word perfect and all that kind of thing, and also it probably won't come out as being as kind of natural and authentic as you'd like it to be. So just having a good bullet point. So if you do lose your place, you've got your next bullet point there and you can go on to the next one.
Speaker 1:Yep, it's kind of having that picture that you want the story, that you want to tell your audience the main points, but how you get there that those words could be different yeah you don't have to memorize it. In fact, you really can't memorize it, because it's not going to be an actual, and you will forget yeah, that's right, and I just forget their lines the whole time.
Speaker 2:But we just don't know about it because we don't know the script, um, but so wait, when you're an actor and you forget your lines, do you just ad-lib?
Speaker 1:Do you just fill in the blanks?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have to kind of. Hopefully you manage to kind of get back to what you actually were saying in the first place. But yeah, there are moments when obviously you go completely hot and cold. When you go you can't remember your lines, but actually you will get back. But obviously the whole point is that the more you do it professionally, professionally, the more you know that something will go right at the end it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1:Well, even even with presentations in the business sense, the more you do it and I share this with students the better you'll feel about it. You may not end up loving it, but you'll have more confidence and at the end, it's.
Speaker 2:It's that, and the other thing I would say is that, in terms of learning, if you learn your opening line and you learn your closing line, so you can deliver those completely confidently, that's great because, in terms of what they call the primacy and the recency effect, people remember the first impressions and they remember the last thing about you. So if you get that right, who cares what happens in the middle?
Speaker 2:but actually you've made a great first impression and you've left people with a great lasting impression yeah and that's because they it's only what a couple sentences it's easy to do yeah, that's like that quote from Maya Angelou.
Speaker 1:I'll probably get it wrong, but people will forget what you said, forget what you did, but they'll always remember how you made them feel absolutely right. I think I butchered that, but it's something like no, no, it's good I will butcher that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's a great one. Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So, as we sum up, here is what is the big takeaway? If you had to give one tip to someone who's in front of you saying simon, I, I'm just terrified of presenting. How do I start? What's the? What's the baby step I do to start, or is it different for everybody?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think it's, I mean it obviously. It is them everyone's kind of got you know different. I think it's, I mean it obviously. It is everyone's kind of got you know different issues, whether it's like speaking too quickly or they kind of they move too quickly or they they kind of they're voiding all things um I mean, I think, that, um, maybe it takes a little bit of courage, but not too much courage.
Speaker 2:Uh, if you can video yourself before you give the speech and then you watch it back, and maybe watch it back with a friend in some way, and they can give you some feedback as well, that can be a really great way for you to actually make that progress and also to go hey, actually it wasn't that bad. I'm feeling confident about it. So that can be a great way to make sure, because it's rehearsal and the point is that no actor would ever go on stage willingly without rehearsal. So a lot of times you find, particularly in businesses, corporations, not-for-profits, people will spend a long time working on the content of what they do, but very little time on the actual delivery, and that's key. The delivery is key. I mean just one thing, if you've got time, is it's often really important to think about, when you give a presentation, what the different channels of communication are, in the sense that there is what people call the deck, like the PowerPoint deck, which is often full of information and people want it as a kind of reference afterwards.
Speaker 2:That's fine, but then there are the slides that you show, and the slide shouldn't be the same as the deck, because the slides are your and the audience's journey through what you're telling them the journey but actually the most important part of the presentation is you, because you're the person that is going to give the information that people want to warm to, to feel good about in some way, and if there's like facts and figures they want to find out afterwards go to the deck exactly, but that's afterwards, in the moment in presentation. It's all about you.
Speaker 1:That's great. Thank you so much, Simon. This has been wonderful and I know I have definitely tips to bring back to my students.
Speaker 2:My pleasure. They had a journey here and a great holiday.
Speaker 1:Yes, thank you so much. Well, I want to thank the crew here too. You guys have been great. There's a lot of you. Thank you so much, and we'll conclude this. I want to say thank you to our listeners. If you found this content valuable, please subscribe and share this with a friend, and until next time. Thanks for listening to the Business Edge.