Ben Hogan from United Talent Agency is one of the most successful and in-demand booking agents in all of dance music. He has helped build the careers of dozens of artists including Marshmello, Jauz, Slander, NGHTMRE, Svdden Death and many more.
In this episode we talk about what it takes to get signed to an agency, when is the right time in an artist's career to look for an agent and the importance of thinking long-term and making decisions to invest in the big picture of your career, art and legacy.
Follow Ben and UTA here:
https://www.unitedtalent.com
https://www.instagram.com/unitedtalent
https://www.instagram.com/hogieknowsbest
And visit my site to join the mailing list, book a free coaching call or get in touch:
https://www.nikcherwink.com
Ben Hogan from United Talent Agency is one of the most successful and in-demand booking agents in all of dance music. He has helped build the careers of dozens of artists including Marshmello, Jauz, Slander, NGHTMRE, Svdden Death and many more.
In this episode we talk about what it takes to get signed to an agency, when is the right time in an artist's career to look for an agent and the importance of thinking long-term and making decisions to invest in the big picture of your career, art and legacy.
Follow Ben and UTA here:
https://www.unitedtalent.com
https://www.instagram.com/unitedtalent
https://www.instagram.com/hogieknowsbest
And visit my site to join the mailing list, book a free coaching call or get in touch:
https://www.nikcherwink.com
if your goal is to be a touring musician, you have to be thinking about making music for yourself that you love, but also, you know, considering your audience. If you're just making music for yourself and you don't care what the result is, then by all means proceed. If you are watching this podcast saying, how do I get an agent? Well, agents are, you know, our job is to, guide your career and to help monetize your career at the end of the day by engaging in, different forms of media and live performance. That's it. So we have to always consider that audience. We have to always be mindful of ultimately who you're targeting as your fans, Hey, how's it going Nick? How you doing? Very happy to be here. Thanks for letting me, uh, be the first agent on this show. It's an honor here. Yeah. Yeah, I was in LA for 12 years and I recently relocated to Nashville. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm from Baltimore, Maryland originally. My family's in Baltimore, my brother, sister, mom, dad. So this is a lot closer. Um, and, you know, my dad's getting a bit older. It's, it's just good to be closer to them, and it's a fresh new city and, you know, there's a lot going on in Nashville. It's one of the fastest growing cities in the country. Um, so many people coming here and it's music city. So, I mean, it, it just kind of, it made sense for me. It's a, it's a world, a new world. And, um, I saw, honestly in 12 years, I saw, I think, as much of LA as I needed to see, at least for right now. You know, I was a California guy. I've, I've lived in all the different neighborhoods there. I've seen it all. So, I mean, it's, I think it's good to keep things fresh and, you know, experience new cities and new areas. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, if it's a short answer, no, you do not need to be in la. Um. Uh, but it does depend on your personality and your strengths, right? If I'm somebody who's a young artist and I'm a very social person and I'm a night owl, and I like to be out and I like to meet new people, and I like to be in the club and I can afford it, and I can move with a couple roommates, uh, you know, I moved to LA when I was 20, 22 years old, 21 years old. And at the time it was the best thing for me. I met hundreds of people in the music industry. I met hundreds of artists. you know, the first time I met Jaws was probably five months living into LA at Avalon, right on the side little area where everybody smoked cigarettes, you know? So it's, and we worked toge and we work together now. Yeah. For me, it was obviously huge for my career. I mean, you know, I moved from Baltimore, Maryland to la so again, a city not necessarily connected to the music industry, nobody else really in the music industry, living in Baltimore. Then moving to kind of the center of You know, music business is really in LA and New York, um, LA specifically. Yeah, it was, it was huge for me. Now that having been said, if you're an introverted, kind of sit in the studio and crank out tunes and, and you're somebody who doesn't like going out late and you don't really like sitting in the club when you're not performing as an artist, like you might hate la some people might, might despise that kind of lifestyle. Um, but California is a great state and LA is a great city. It's just should never be a necess, you know, a necessary thing. Uh, I don't think artists should look at it that way. I have artists who do not live in LA who are at the top of the music industry. I have artists who are just starting off, who live in the middle of nowhere, you know, relative to la small cities. It does not, it's not gonna make or break, um, you as an artist. Um, but it can, it can help if you're looking to connect with the general wider scene. Yeah. Um, so what are we looking for? I mean, you know, this may seem obvious, but, but we're looking for, you know, a combination of, of things. First of all, we're looking for an artist who is a, like a likable person, a likable brand, and a good person. Like you're looking for a good human being that you feel comfortable working with. You believe in their character, you believe in their talent. You believe in their, you know, their work ethos. So, so I'm always looking for a human being to connect with and to represent proudly. That's a big part of it. Um, I think even more so obvious is the music. you know, I'm a live booking agent. I'm looking to book stuff that is going to translate to the live audience, that's going to ultimately attract ticket buyers and hardcore fans and be able to cut an actual piece of this pie out. So we're looking for music that's going to, uh, not only sell, but I would say specifically in the Asian world, music that's gonna translate to live rooms, that's gonna translate to festivals, that's gonna translate to clubs. I So translate meaning, you know, we're looking for, for music that promoters want to book, right? Music that is profitable, um, you know, down tempo, for example, like if you, if you're making really cool, esoteric, atmospheric down tempo might be some of the best music in the world. I listen to a lot of it. Is it gonna work in a nightclub? Almost certainly not. Is it gonna work in Vegas? Almost certainly not. Is it gonna work, like there has to be a, a trans mutability for the music, it has to be able to create energy that is going to be conducive to like the live touring atmosphere. Correct? Correct. Yeah. you can have a song that also is very pervasive on social media, but doesn't necessarily translate to the live audience. And that's a twofold thing. One, it's the actual musicality of the record and if it belongs in, in on a dance floor or in the DJ culture or the modicum of dance, right? That's part of it. The other part of it is, you know, how is the audience? There is a firm, a kind of firm audience, I would say, in all of like dance music. There's people who are regular attendees. There are hardcore lifestyle attendees. There are casual attendees, but there still is like a finite circle. And everybody who interacts with dance music is inside of that circle. So is your music touching those people? Are they finding it? Are they listening to it? Plenty of records that go viral on TikTok do not move the needle or really help or hurt an artist in the actual live touring atmosphere. Here they can be completely separate, because who listens to music? That's a whole separate circle. People who listen to music and interact with music on Spotify and TikTok and DSPs, they're all in. You know, that's a universe. But the live touring universe is very different. You know, we, we see that a lot. Like, I'll give you an example in the gaming world, right? There are records that are massive in the gaming kind of streaming world in the Twitch world. And there, there's music that's big there, but those people, that demo tends to not go out as much. Like, they're not leaving, they're, they're playing games. So, so that's another whole like, kind of sphere that has its own kind of, you know, group of souls in that sphere on this planet that don't, don't necessarily go out. So you have to really be thinking, if your goal is to be a touring musician, you have to be thinking about making music for yourself that you love, but also, you know, considering your audience. I would never tell an artist to make music for other people or to make music to be successful. Certainly artists have done that with great success, right? Uh, artists crank out radio records all the time. This will stream well, therefore I'm gonna make it. Those are established artists though, 99% of the time, right? So I would, I would say to artists, you know, you just have to consider your audience based on your goals. If you're just making music for yourself and you don't care what the result is, then by all means proceed. If you are watching this podcast saying, how do I get an agent? Well, agents are, you know, our job is to, is to guide your career and to help monetize your career at the end of the day by engaging in, you know, different forms of media and live performance. That's it. So we have to always consider that audience. We have to always be mindful of who is gonna be, you know, ultimately who you're targeting as your fans, your fan base. Yep. Correct. And then F and then, and then finally, you know, and this is an important kind of part of talking to an agent, is the team and the people who that artist surrounds themselves with. Nine times out of 10, I would say when an agent signs an act, you are engaging with someone else other than the artist directly or in tandem with the artist and their team, right? So who is the manager? Who is the lawyer? Who is the business manager? How far along in this artist's career are they? Right? There are times when I certainly have spoken directly to artists and signed them, but. Um, but those are fewer and far between than the amount of times that a manager will solicit agents or, um, or the artist has made and produced music to a degree where it's very obvious that an agent needs to be in place. Does that make sense? So typically that means that there is a team present. Very few artists are just cranking out records by themselves. They're going viral by themselves, they don't have anyone around them, and then an agent calls you or, or you reach out to an agency and hit, you know, call them, hit'em up on Instagram, they listen to your music. Those stories are just, you know, they're, they don't make up the lion's share of signing stories. Does that make sense? So, so we always look for a team. If, if it's a manager who we know or who I know, or a manager that you have a friendship or relationship with, no doubt you are going to take the conversation with more. more importance, more urgency when they say, Hey, I've got this act that I'm working with. You need to sign it. Um, so I think having a, like, in a lot of, in a lot of ways, having a manager can be a beneficial thing for a growing artist if it's at the right time, you know, at the end of the day to kind of bring those three together. We're looking as, as agents, we're looking for artists who are ready, who are ready to perform, live in, you know, multitudes of cities all over the globe. Um, well, I mean, you talk to them, um, you converse with them and you, and, and typically you can find out how ready they are. You look, you can obviously look at data and metrics and you can see, you know, obviously now you can go on your Spotify and you can look at how many fans you have listening from each city. Like, that's part of it. But I think there's a gut sense that makes great agents great where, you know. You know, sometimes I'll just have a conversation with an artist and have a 30 minute zoom, and the music's good. The artist is really cool. Even if there's not a team at that point, like those, those two, like this is a great human. They're enigmatic, they're eccentric, they're like popping off the screen. There's like almost a 3D person in the room with you on a Zoom or in a meeting. You have a lunch with somebody. You can kind of tell, like, this is someone who is going to attract fans and is going to attract a fan base and a business because of the type of person they are. And some of the biggest artists I've represented, some of the best artists I've represented, some of the most successful artists I've represented or represent now all have this istic quo of like, my God, this guy's a rock star, this girl's a rock star. Like, and that, that's, I mean, easy, easy sign. You're gonna do everything you can to work with someone like that because you can see that, you know, if you're, if you're attracted to working with them and being in a room with them and, and hearing from them. You know, outside of just the music they make, then others are going to be as well, right? Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Sometimes it's, it can be that obvious if you meet Sullivan King, you're, I mean, the guy's just, he's reading this enigmatic like, awesome, you know, flavor of life. So, um, yeah, I mean, I, I think it's, it's that combination of things, you know, I, I personally wouldn't wanna work with an artist who's a shitty person who comes off abrasive, you know, like that, those little things, all kind of Go into a melting pot and then you're looking at it and saying, wow, I really, I think this artist is gonna go, Well, you kind of said it, it depends on where you're at in your career. If, if you're a younger agent and you're coming up in the world and you know there's a track record, there's time spent, you know, in my case, you know, I'm fortunate to be in a situation where if you really have a gut feeling, you know, UTA is very supportive of that. Like, if you really connect with someone and say, I believe in this, you know, I think it, it would be very, very, uh, rare to be like denied to sign an act. But of course we, we always have conversations internally. We have a and r meetings, we have internal, you know, systems that we've built to always be talking about the viability of artists that we're signing. You know, typically I, I'll be aware of any, any electronic act, certainly and on a wider scale, any act that we bring on, we're always talking about it, we're sharing it internally. We're, you know, that's the hive mind of an agency. That's why agencies exist. Otherwise, it would all be us on our own, you know, be the Hogan Agency and that would be it. And I would just do exactly what I wanted all the time and I make a ton of mistakes and miss a ton of great artists. So, um, it's the community and the team that, that helps us to ascertain whether or not. you know, different artists make sense unless it's just painfully obvious. And, you know, and a lot of times in our industry, every agency is going after one artist at that one moment.'cause they're blowing up. They got a viral record, they got something on the radio, they've got this big moment, they have their pop moment, and then it's obvious. and in that case, we're gonna try to put the best team together, uh, to work with that artist. So again, we're always discussing internally. Um, we try to avoid siloing, or it's called hip pocketing is another term that's used in the industry where, you know, you just go off on your own, hit this artist up, sign it. Um, we're trying to communicate as much as possible. Communication internally is what makes agencies great. Uh, otherwise you just have a bunch of like, you know, rockstar agents in separate rooms and silos, just doing whatever they want. That's not cohesive, that's not gonna, you know, you're gonna end up having problems sooner or later with that. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Babies. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. Mm-Hmm. Well, like you said, I, I have seen kind of all sides of that. Um, from starting out and being the young hungry agent who had to kind of prove himself in the meeting and sign some of the bigger artists I represent now, some of the biggest artists I represent now too. You know, later in your career where you might be a Desi, you might be considered a desirable agent or a bigger agent, uh, or have some media and some, you know, some word of mouth about the stuff that you've done. Um, I think it really, again, kind of like I was saying, where you have that connection, when you're a young artist, you should, you should talk to this prospective agent and you should ask those questions. You know, a lot of times we'll get asked, well, you know, where would I fit on your roster, right? Am I gonna be house artist number 43 on, you know what I mean? Am I gonna be your biggest client? How many, you know, you have to kind of size up what the bandwidth is gonna be like for that agent and how, how passionate they are, how much they're gonna be dedicated. you know, a multitude of factors come into that. And there's no right answer. I would never tell artists you should sign with the biggest agent you can. And I would never tell artists, um, you should sign with the young hungry agent. You have to sign with the right agent. Um, you're not making a decision. Uh, that you're tied to for the rest of your life. agencies rarely, I would say, like sign contracts, similar to how management typically would, where it's like, oh, you signed with me today, you're with me for 10 years. You know, that's not necessarily how, um, the industry works at this time. So, you know, I think you take your time. I think that you, you go with what feels right. Again, there should be that gut connection. There should be this like, wow, this is my, this is my girl, this is my guy. This person is who I want to represent me. That's the way it should go. And you'll know, and you know, I mean, it's kind of like, I, I hate to make it cheesy. I was gonna say it's the cheesiest comparison in the world, but it kind of is. I mean, you're, you're essentially going on your first, your first like, date to meet this potential agent. And, and it is kind of similar when you know, you know, um, you know, you're gonna, you're, you're building a, hopefully a very long-term relationship, and you're doing it one day at a time and one step at a time, and one conversation at a time. But, you know, a lot of artists that I've signed, even, even I would give a recent example. You know, I've heard from an artist that I recently signed, like I knew, like after our Zoom, pretty much like we talked and you had all the answers to my questions. Ask questions. That's a huge thing. Sometimes we'll get on with a prospective client and they don't really have any questions for us. You know? Um, think about that, think about that before your first call with an agent and have 10 questions for'em. Agents love answering questions, that's what we do. but you know, there is no, there's no right answer. I think for, for young artists. I would say this, being knowledgeable about what agencies exist and what agencies exist, that is a really great skill for a young artist to be knowledgeable about the world that you're stepping into, the economy that you're stepping into, the industry that you're stepping into. Um, the more you know, the better, and, and that might seem obvious too, but frankly, I mean, a lot of the times that's not the case. Right. Your figure, you're learning how to ride a bike and we know everything about bicycles, right? We're the specialists. So you have to look at that power dynamic, right? And be aware of it and, and empower yourself as an artist with knowledge. All this stuff is online. You know, you can go on every agency's roster and see who they represent. Like none of this stuff is necessarily secret. There's not a book that tells you everything that I'm aware of about every agency necessarily. Maybe there should be one day, but, um, but it would be a very biased book. So you have to, you have to look around and see some artists, like certain personalities of certain agents. You know, You have to find an agent who matches your ethos as it pertains to business and, and, and a certain business ethos and acumen that's going to guide really how your brand is perceived from the buyers of the industry. Some people want a, an absolute pit bull. Go get it done no matter what agent. Some people want an a, you know, a little bit of a, a different blend of, of personalities for the person who's representing their brand. And it's all gonna be part of how people think about your artist's name, yeah. Yeah. And you brought up such a good point, like how media portrays agents is almost, it, it it is almost comedic and oftentimes comedic, whether it's Tom Cruise or whether it's, you know, actually he's done a couple, but like in Tropic Thunder, right? Like that character as an agent, Matthew McConaughey is like that. That's another perfect example. And then, you know, Tom's the big studio executive. We're kind of portrayed entourage. Another perfect example as these like kind of blow hard, uh, I would say douchey I hope I can say that. Like these kind of, you know, the, the, the gross guy in the corner of the room, like making a lot of noise, that that's not how agents are. And there's such a multitude of diversity and, and different human beings that you can work with. And oftentimes it's kind of like when you see somebody walking with their dog in the park and you're like, you know what? That looks like your dog. like you, you two look alike. You guys belong together, right? Uh, in a perfect world, I think like sometimes the agent matches the artists in a lot of ways. And you see'em walking together at the festival and you're like, that is just, that's that entourage. It's like that group of people. Um, and Ari Gold obviously is like probably the most famous example of, of the, the agent who, you know, gets himself into trouble all the time with his big mouth. And, um, so we're all, uh, you know, ideally every agent is trying to be a good human being and trying to be a likable human being. Trying to make this as easy as possible. We all work very long hours. It is a very stressful job. Um, I've seen it get too stressful before it, it is just grueling. We work weekends, we're traveling at the times when we wanna be with our families the most. you know, a lot of times for agents, you gotta understand, it's like we have to oftentimes go with the artists and go do the show and be at the show and keep those hours and do all that travel. But then for us on Monday morning, we're back in the office and that's peak, peak work time, right? The week after Ultra is really difficult. It's the weeks after Coachella and the week in between two Coachellas. When you have artists playing Coachella, it is very difficult to balance all of that. You know, if you're getting, if I'm getting 500 emails a day and I go on vacation for a week, do the math, right? What am I coming back to? So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's something to be said about trusting the process in your music career. you know, trying not to be impulsive, trying not to be, you know, trying to be filled with gratitude, really. I think the more gratitude you have as an artist, the happier you'll be in this journey. And I've seen it at all different levels. Um. And more gratitude will always, uh, provide you more happiness when you're going through the stress and rig morale of, of, uh, you know, a live touring musician. It's, it is some heavy stuff and, um, it has to be taken, you know, kind of step by step. but yeah, I think you're, you're spot on in general and, and, um, you know, it, it's just about finding that groove and working relationship that's gonna be best for all parties and that's gonna make everybody feel good. And that, um, it's just cohesive, right? It's a blend and you're always feeling like your team's working for you. the other point I wanted to make, I think, you know, for young artists on the show, a lot of times, um, artists will preempt, uh, needing an agent because they feel like it's something they have to have in their Rolodex. They feel like it's a necessary part. And, and it is. You have, I think, I think that artists need agents, um, but you need'em at the right time. If you're not getting any inquiries to book you on the email that you have listed on your social media. uh, and on your music streaming platforms, you probably don't need an agent yet. If no one's trying to book you there, you'll, you'll know when the time comes because people will be reaching out saying, we'd like to have you on, not necessarily on EDC, Las Vegas or Co Coachella or Lollapalooza, but people are gonna reach out to book you if you're doing something right. And oftentimes I have to tell aspiring artists, you know, it's too early right now, you know, you're getting inquiries for, for$500 a show, a thousand dollars for a show. you know, if you have a manager and an agent and they're confirming a thousand dollars shows for you, and you're flying to those shows and those are inclusive shows, and you don't have a hotel provided on that show, and then inflation hit Your manager might be making$200, 150, whatever the manager's taking. You're paying taxes on that. You have to buy a flight, uh, you have to pay for a hotel room. You're already in the red. and then what frequency are those shows gonna come? I mean, oftentimes with early artists, we will do, you know, super low fees and make it happen to get them in front of an audience, to get them on the road, to get them out on flyers, uh, to expose them. But you can die from exposure. So, uh, you need an agent when ultimately the agent's gonna come in place and immediately they're gonna be able to earn their commission and to further your career. You don't necessarily need an agent when you're not touring yet, and there's no demand to tour yet. So there has to be that congruent kind of point where the demand to book you as an artist meets the, you know, the supply and, and meets the agent in the middle to where we can actually help you. Um. so. There's a couple of things that I've seen that that really stand out. You know, I think first off, almost certainly. You know, I talk to promoters all day on the phone. That's probably the, the lion's share of what I'm doing is interacting with promoters. So typically promoters are, are pretty knowledgeable, uh, in the dance world. Promoters who are booking entire festivals, right, from different genres. For example, a lot of the, a lot of the folks that, whether it's C3 or Insomniac or Golden Voice, they know, you know, what they're listening to. They know what the audience is listening to. They're very keen. And so we're certainly looking, you know, the most obvious things. We're looking for artists who are recognizable and who promoters are picking up on. A lot of times I'll look on social media at a perspective artist who's hit me up and see who else is, is following them, right? Okay. You've got 3000 followers on Instagram. It's very early. But if 40 of those followers are also connected with me on Instagram and are other artists, or are, industry heads or executives or people who, who touch dance music or people who've been around for a long time, and I see that they're following you, that's an instant. Green flag. Um, I think you're looking for a brand. Um, even in the early days, you're looking for an identity. You're looking for someone who has their shit together, frankly, who has a proper bio, who has a proper, a really schedule, who has 20, you know, we're looking for, for artists who have 20 songs, 30 songs on deck, and you listen to 15 of'em and they're all awesome like that all will give you the sign, okay, there's something happening here. I work on our digital assets team too, and we like to be at the forefront of every new emerging technology, of every new data point where we can, you know, again, ascertain, pop the hood of this really nice looking car and see what the engine looks like and see how it actually operates and see You know, look, you can go buy bots on Instagram and all of a sudden have 4,000 comments on your posts, and we can also see that I can go through your Instagram and see where you went from having 17 comments, 400, and you got the same people commenting nine times. So yes, we, yeah, don't, very, very difficult, if not impossible to obfuscate or fake a connection with a, an audience, you know? And so we're looking for genuine artistry, we're looking for professional artistry, and we're looking at all those data points and trying to analyze that moment when things are popping off. Um, sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's not. There are also artists that, that I've worked with, that we've worked with, that we signed, because we like the, again, we like the music, we like the team, we like the look, whatever it is. And for six months or a year, it might not. Not pop, it might not connect, and then it does, and then they're huge all of a sudden. Or they're on the festival circuit, they write a song. There is no Bible for this. And it doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong if it hasn't connected yet, especially if your product is great. Uh, but there is a moment where it will become obvious, you know, when we are, you know, I would say one example I would share is, I don't know if young artists really know this, but when you're on a festival, um, and when you start to get booked on festivals, your position on the flyer is very determined by, you know, what kind of touring you're doing. Are you selling your own tickets? If it's really early, what are your, what are your numbers look like? I've gotten in tons of arguments with promoters, uh, as a proxy to another agent where we are arguing which of our artists is bigger so that they can be one slot to the left on the flyer and thus closer to the top left of the flyer, which thusly makes them a bigger artist. Like that's a big part of what we do. and so of course when you're talking about festivals, when you're talking about breaking, you're gonna want that arsenal, that ammunition, so that your agent can have a conversation with a festival and say, look at, look at this. I mean, there's 20 million plays on this record, or there's, you know, there's 900 comments on this Instagram post. This artist is blowing up. Um, it's an important part of, of the industry, and certainly a lot of my time is spent not well spent, but it's necessarily spent arguing position on different flyers, arguing a performance slot on a show, as a support act at Red Rock. Should they be third on or fourth on? We're always looking, and unfortunately, we're kind of, um, we're kind of bespoke to or tied to some of those metrics, uh, as the only way to ascertain which artist is, is bigger, right? The, the golden, the golden ticket. Or the golden rule is who's worth more tickets? Who has a bigger audience, right? You sell out an arena in nine seconds, you're gonna get great billing on a festival. Tool. If you've never played the market, you're gonna have a tougher time, regardless of who your agent is convincing, the, the promoter that, you know, you're massive, even if you have a bunch of, of streams on a record. Right? So it's all goes into kind of what we do, which is ascertaining, representing and negotiating the perceived size of an artist. I, I'm not speaking for all agents because there are a lot of agents who I don't think overlap with the creative, but for me, I've some of my best success stories and some of the greatest artists partnerships that I have, I have had more of a, I've put my creative hat on and I've taken some risks saying We should do this, or we should do it this way, or We should make the flyer look this way. I mean, we, we did this, this chauffeur Sudden Death and launched his Dead room project at Academy last year. And I don't know if you saw it, but, um, we hired a bunch of, uh, a bunch of fake celebrities, celebrity lookalikes in la. We hired a limo, we had a red carpet and all these, you know, we had a Tom Cruise, we had a Lady Gaga, we had a, um, we had, you know, probably we had an Austin Powers and a Dr. Evil. Um, that was definitely something that like, you know, we were all in Denver and just talking about like what we could do for Dead Room and, and as a hive mind that idea came, but I got to be a part of that conversation that was really cool and got to be a part of the behind the scenes planning process and making it come to life. And when it works, it's, it's a great feeling'cause you feel like you really put your iron in the fire versus, versus more of a transactional agent who says, Hey, here's this offer. Let me know if you want to confirm or pass. I certainly as an agent, for better or worse, will typically put my input in on what we should do or what the project should do. I think we should do this versus just being a relay agent, you know, saying, Hey, I got this offer, here it is. Let me know. typically put a little bit on the line there and say, I think we should do this, and if it works out, it's great. And if the festival stinks or it's a stinker show or it doesn't work, then that's the, the inherent risk of an agent, kind of stepping out onto that line. Right. So. again, it, it really depends on the artist and what you want outta your life, but I'd like to think that as an artist, you wanna get on a call with your team and hear a bunch of ideas, also I think artists should want a team of people who are willing to also risk. And it shouldn't all be on the artist. You know, the artist shouldn't have to come up with, well, this is what my tour is gonna look like, and this is what the production's gonna look like. And this is like, you have to have a team to help you create this art. painting a picture. That's not what we're doing here. And as an agent, I'm not selling a picture that you painted. Uh, it's a much deeper, you know, we're building a story that is a non-fiction story. We're writing your autobiography, of course I want write a little bit. know, like, I want to be in that autobiography at the end of the day. so that's, that's really where I think agents can, that's where I've had the most fun, uh, doing this as a profession. And that certainly has been where I've had the most success or the biggest memories that I have, or our ideas that I had that, or that we had as a team. Or that the UTA team brought opportunities that we brought, um, that came to fruition and then were great, and then people talk about it, then you really, that's, that's a trust building thing too. You, if you come up with a great idea as an agent for a show and it sells out right away, I mean, you're gonna have that trust and, and then you can take more risk and you can build more verticals and you can, you know, spread your wings a little bit wider rather than just kind of bringing the offers and doing the, the minimum kind of paper pushing part of this pencil. Pushing rather. Yeah, I think, you know, again, like going back to what we said super early on, that is, uh, an amazing team and it's like a family even more so than a marriage. It's not, it's not sudden Death and I, or his management, which is Colin Duggar, who's amazing, and, and Adam and Steven Hel and Moisi, all at TSG. Um, there is a massive team on the Sudden Death project and everybody's in the room for bigger decisions and creative elements and the general direction of the project. I think one of the reasons that we're all kind of a happy family, and it's going so well for him is because everyone has a voice and it's not a dictatorship, um, or an authoritarian regime. everybody kind of gives input. We discuss a lot. We have a lot of conversations. We have an internal, you know, we're always talking on internal threads about different ideas and different parts and pieces of the project. And there are so many facets to Sudden Death. There's sudden death, there's void, there's dead room. You know, we've done different touring kind of shows that hit different festivals into the Inferno was like a fire show that we kind of came up with as a team and, and, you know, he had a fire sword and was breathing fire for, you know, we, we stopped doing it because it was too dangerous. Um, literally too dangerous. And he was like risking burning his hair off every night and, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We've, we've built a festival called Summoning the Eclipse with Sudden Death. That's been, you know, totally a team effort where they kind of originally sudden Death came to me. You know, at a certain point in time it was like, we want to do a void show somewhere super weird. Like, find a cave, find a church, find some, a prison, find something that doesn't exist as a four wall normal venue. At the time, no, DJs had played at the Caverns in Pelham, Tennessee. Uh, it was a place where jam bands played and Christian music came off and, and there were, you know, there was maybe like a pretty lights history. I don't even know if he had played there yet, but a lot of stuff like soundtrack Sector nine or disco biscuits in that jam troika scene, we came into the Caverns and sold it out for Void and then built it into a festival. They had an amphitheater outside. Now it's, you know, become a a, a sold out 5,500 person weekend event with two stages and 40 artists. And, you know, so again, that was all a team effort of coming up with how can we do things differently and do something that pushes the needle or that pushes the envelope rather, that hasn't been done yet. that's always a fun team to work on. Those are always fun artists. Whenever an artist gets on a call me and says, I wanna do something that nobody else has ever done, great, let's go DJ in space. Let's go, you know, let's go do something. I saw that there's, there's an artist who's about to do that soon. I mean, it's, you know, we we're all looking to, again, to create nonfiction that's like our purpose on, on this planet. We're not like making something up. We're actually going and doing something that people are experiencing and gonna talk about for years. We want to create experiences to where, you know, fans that are now 25, when they're 55 can remember that night, uh, that weekend, um, that experience. I mean, it's all really, first of all, it's wildly expensive and the pandemic didn't help. Uh, and certainly inflation right now doesn't help. And our macroeconomic, you know, kind of conditions don't help. Uh, it's gotten more expensive, um, since, since I started doing this. Almost every year. It just continues to become more brutal and, and Difficult, uh, to, and a challenge to make sense of the finances. The simple answer is, you know, every deal is a new deal. every great agent is flexible. There are always ways to say to the promoter, you're giving us this much money. How are we gonna cut that up? Or budget those different elements. Is this show going to require a large production budget? Maybe we can budget that in the offer. There are different ways to do that. I don't send very many all in offers. Typically when you get a festival offer, right, you you have to build a budget for every single show. That's part of, of, of the, part of the kind of, uh, challenge, but also part of the beauty of, of touring in general. You know, if we can charge a certain ticket price or if there's a certain venue that has lower costs, Where we can divert more money into a budget for production, then we can go do a really cool show, and that will have a secondary value to the primary value. Primary value is go do the show, take the money, here's the budget, and this is what the walkaway is. But a, a super effective, impactful show is going to lead to a very large festival offer, hopefully a festival where the artist doesn't have to bring production because there's already production there. If you're gonna play Lollapaloozas at Perry's, you don't have to necessarily bring a show. I've had artists who have brought big shows and has spent the whole fee, but you're looking for a, you know, we're building a long-term financial roadmap to success. Artists are gonna bring in money as their careers grow from other revenues, from merchandise, from streaming, from publishing deals, but in the live, you know, world There are many shows where an artist is gonna say, confirm this, knowing full well that there will be no take home. Right? There are grueling six week bus tours that artists in the electronic world going that we've been booking for a long time. I remember booking excision with Steve Gordon years and years ago and working on routings where, you know, at the time artists were not going into empty concert rooms and bringing on a bus, essentially the entire show besides racks and stacks, that's like the speakers, the sound, you're bringing everything else. Right? tours, yeah, those tours are very difficult to make money on. But now if you look at excision, would anyone question the steps that he took and the amount of money that he put into his career? You know, the slander guys are another example of, of artists who, who I worked with that that put a lot of of money and time and effort and would lose money all the time on shows. Sudden Death is a perfect example of someone who will go into a show and you know, maybe not make any money or spend money or have a festival that loses money for two years and then makes money the third year. That's part of the artist, uh, story is you're investing in your overall product and brand. And so a lot of times to be an effective artist, you need to look at the entire year, it's like any other financial, uh, business that anyone runs or any financial journey you have to look at, at the bigger picture and the macroeconomics, not necessarily the microeconomics of, I'm gonna lose$5,000 to do this show. I can't lose money. You're not really losing money because when you make the festival fee on the next play, you're actually making a lot of money and year over year, you're gonna make more money every year. So, yes, that is a hard part for young artists. It's a hard part for headliner artists. It's hard at all facets. And during all steps of your journey as a musician, there's gonna be these difficult choices. Do we bring our show to Coachella and lose money to play Coachella? For a lot of artists, the answer is yes. You get in there and you play your epic show and you're defining what the next brand or what the current brand is. and then you're building this, you know, behemoth of a touring act. You know, and, and, you know, some of the most effective artists of all time, uh, in the touring realm have always had mind blowing next level shows. That's just how it is. That's you want your fan who's gonna eventually be spending what,$70,$80,$90 to see you, or$250 on your festival. You want them to walk away. At the end of the day, the consumer feeling like they got what they paid for. And so that's the process. You have to talk to your agent, your manager, and talk to yourself and your mind as an artist and say, is this show that I'm putting on, is that gonna be worth X amount of dollars to the fan? When they leave, are they gonna be leave? Or is my music and my show so good that I can play? On a DJ table in a dark room, and that's what we're doing on this tour. And that's the, and then people are still gonna leave and say, oh my God, that is the best night of my life. there is no, um, there's no Bible for this. There's no tried and true. This is the right way, this is the wrong way. But oftentimes we see, especially in the electronic world, that artists that are willing to invest in their product, their show, their performance, their tour, are rewarded in other ways. You know, you're gonna sell more merch on the road, which means you're gonna make more money, you're gonna stream more records if you have an awesome show. You know, when people see video of some of the bigger names in electronic that have defined big production over the years, you know, tale of Us is a great example and an obvious example right now in this time, people see that video. They wanna go to a Tale of Us concert and pay more money for it. And it rises. It's all guns and butter and supply and demand, but people are gonna wanna come see your concert if they see video of 8,000 lasers and big plumes of Fire and. Confetti spraying into the air. It's, it, it all builds the demand for your act. absolutely. And, and again, I mean, you, you look at the, at the success stories there, it's like no one is question, no one has to question on excisions team or an excisions world, whether or not the choices he made were right. And that's why, you know, we will typically push, you know, black Tiger sex machine, another perfect example. They're putting so much into their show and into the visuals and into the, the brand, you know, regardless of the specific finances. They know that that investment is worth it. And they're blowing up, you know, their fees are doubling. It's like crazy what's happening with that project right now, headlining festivals. And so again, the, the hard work that you put in, is really gonna determine, uh, the, the output. And, and so part of that is spending money and investing in yourself like you were running any other business if you owned a bakery. You know, if you go buy the best mixer and the best products for the bakery, it's gonna cost a lot of money. You might run in the red for six months, but as soon as you hit that, that green, you're gonna know that it was worth it. So artists are gonna have to understand very early in their careers that this is not about money. The same thing that it as, as for me or anyone working in music. I didn't get into this to make money. And certainly when I started doing this and moved out to LA and dropped outta college and, you know, put my whole life into three boxes, you know, it's not, this is not some glamorous lifestyle, especially in the early days. I mean, I've been doing this for 15 years, certainly now there's, you know, I can turn back and say, all right, cool. I have this, that, and the other that I've gained and, and I have these assets now. But if you wanna make it in music, you know, you have to be ready to suffer financially to some degree. It's not, you know, you're not doing this to get rich quick. It's not like we're not playing scratchies here. Like this is a, it is a very long game and there are. Artists who are 10, 15, 20 years into touring, who will still go and look at a festival and say, we're gonna lose 200 grand to do this. You know, or look at a tour, you know, okay, we're gonna go tour in South America or Asia. We're not, the fees aren't great there. We're gonna go tour in Europe. The fees are low, but then we're gonna have an audience in Europe and we can tour Europe once a year. Right? Correct. I correct. Correct. I mean, it's, it's like anything else. You, you get what you get out of it, what you put into it. Almost certainly. Well, thank you so much for having me, and I certainly hope that your audience will get, um, you know, even if it's just one little thing, like the thing that I've noticed, going to meetings, going to conferences, going to, you have to listen and see if there's one little thing that jumps out at you, and then just take that and bring it with you on your journey. but it was an absolute pleasure to be speaking with you on, um. you know, anytime. And certainly, you know, reach out for any of the artists that I work with and we'll try to get them on the show too. And anything we can do to, to support. and yeah, thanks for the invite.