KALEENA ZANDERS - How To Go From Guest Vocalist To Touring Artist

Kaleena Zanders is one of the most electrifying and powerful voices and artists in the dance music scene. Her songs have tens of millions of plays on Spotify and are getting played every night at clubs and festivals all over the world.

After growing tired of just being in the background and writing toplines for other artists, she is now touring as her own act and headlining shows all across the country.

Follow Kaleena here:
https://www.instagram.com/kaleenazanders
https://www.tiktok.com/@kaleenazanders

And visit my site to join the mailing list, book a free coaching call or get in touch:
https://www.nikcherwink.com

Transcript

Nik (Detached audio): 0:44

What's up everybody. Welcome to the headliner mindset podcast. Today's guest is one of the most electrifying fun and powerful voices and artists in the dance music scene. Her songs have tens of millions of plays on Spotify and are getting played every night at clubs and festivals all over the world. She's also currently nominated to be the female artist of the year at the EDM awards in Miami. This is Kalita Zanders.

Kaleena Zanders: 1:12

Woo hoo! I gave my own clapping, my own cheers.

Nik (Detached audio): 1:18

Yeah, you can clap for yourself You definitely you definitely deserve to clap for yourself because you are one of the fucking coolest people that I know and if you can't Tell I'm really really excited for this episode.

Kaleena Zanders: 1:32

Me too.

Nik (Detached audio): 1:33

You know, um, a lot of people talk about having BDE big dick energy And I want to talk about having big K E, big Kalina energy, because you straight up have like the best energy out of like anybody in the music industry that I've ever met. Like every time I'm around you, it's always just the highest vibes and the best energy and you just, you just bring it. And I want to know like, where does all this energy come from? Cause you're on, you're on another level, dude.

Kaleena Zanders: 2:07

Well, you know, I found out, I think maybe a few months ago, that I was always really, really hyper when I was a kid. Like, I, obviously I can't perceive myself, but I always thought I was shy. Um, but they were like, yeah, you would, you have moments where you didn't talk, but like, you're always bouncing around, always singing, like, and I was like, really? to me, singing was just like how I talked, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't think of it as like this energetic thing flowing through me, you know? So I, I was just always hyper, I guess. Always, I started out the womb with that energy. Yeah. totally just came out singing. Yeah. Literally. Literally. Uh,

Nik (Detached audio): 2:52

I think it was the first time that we hung out. Uh, we got lunch together in LA. Do you remember getting lunch with me in like North Hollywood?

Kaleena Zanders: 3:02

remind me of the place.

Nik (Detached audio): 3:04

it was like an Asian spot and I'm bringing this up. Yeah, we, uh, we ate frog legs. I don't know if you remember that, but. That was like the first time we ever hung out. We literally ate frog legs together.

Kaleena Zanders: 3:22

Why, why did we do that? It's because, it's because of you. You're like a, a person who inspires people to do things, like, subtly, that's why.

Nik (Detached audio): 3:30

I have that effect sometimes. I don't know, I just like to do some weird shit. I think we just saw them on the menu and we're like, That's hella weird they're on the menu. Should we, should we get them? What?

Kaleena Zanders: 3:40

Yeah.

Nik (Detached audio): 3:41

Yeah, tastes like chicken too. They're not, they're

Kaleena Zanders: 3:43

that's, that's crazy. Um, yeah, I haven't, I haven't revisited any kind of, uh, anything like that in a long, like, since then. No frog legs.

Nik (Detached audio): 3:54

I haven't either. I don't know. You, you, you brought it out of me. So, I don't know. We just seem to have that, that, uh, influence on each other.

Kaleena Zanders: 4:01

Yes.

Nik (Detached audio): 4:03

Well, look, it's so good to see you. It's been a long time and I'm really excited for the listeners to hear a bit about your story. Um, and I'm also excited just to, to catch up because I see you've been doing some, some really cool stuff. Uh, like I said, you were nominated for the female artists of the year at the EDM awards. That's pretty exciting.

Kaleena Zanders: 4:25

That's insane to me. That's really insane to me. For many, for many, many reasons, it's insane. can I, want me to share why? Um, okay.

Nik (Detached audio): 4:34

I don't, I'm like, not surprised at all. Of course you are.

Kaleena Zanders: 4:37

okay. Well, because, first of all, I, you know, I, I made the switch to become like my own artist, no longer like, you know, featuring hard out and being a part of everyone else's project. Maybe like, And, um, it's been a very unique journey, a lot of like shedding, a lot of positioning and, you know, kind of, I was kind of really scared and I don't know, just a lot of things. And also being, yeah, being a vocalist and not a DJ. You know, like, you know, that as my main focus, I mean, I DJ a lot now, but I'm just saying that that wasn't my main focus. And then also honestly being a woman and being black and queer, I don't know. It's just like, all those things are like, you know, you look at those things sometimes as like things that may hold you back or, or, you know, not everyone else is the same. So it's just like, I don't know. It feels like a huge win just to be nominated, if that makes sense.

Nik (Detached audio): 5:36

Hell yeah. Hell yeah. And I'm so excited for you because you fucking deserve it. Like I said, Big Kalina energy. It's undeniable. It's undeniable. Yeah. So let's, let's, let's talk a little bit about that story in your journey because I did see that as well. When I met you, you were just doing top lines pretty much right. You were, you were singing on other people's records and now you've made that transition to. being, being the headliner, doing your own shows, you're DJing, you know, like you are the artist now, not the featured artist anymore. And, you know, I think that that's a place that a lot of singers kind of get stuck in is just being like the guest artist, the guest vocalist. Right. So, Tell me a bit about making that transition. Because we don't see it that often, but you've done it really, really well.

Kaleena Zanders: 6:27

Thank you. Yeah. Um, so it's funny because I wasn't even sure I wanted to make that transition at first. I was actually pretty comfortable in a lot of ways being a feature artist. You know, because, you know, you show up to the studio, it's low pressure, you sing your songs, write your songs, and then, you know, they're coming out with whatever DJ and you don't have to worry about pushing it, all those things. Like, so initially, I think after I got over a few things, like the writing style, basically the writing style and dance music, that that's the whole thing. But after I got over that, understood how dance music is made, like, I kind of, you know, was like, yeah, it was comfortable. And then I started to get really uncomfortable because I was tired of not being able to turn all the songs that were successful for me into a career, a traveling career or anything like beyond, you know, just being a feature vocalist and, you know, the, the payments and the respect, I guess, changes, you know, like, it's like, oh, okay, I'll just, they think of you as just kind of like, Not an artist, not a person who creates and it's just like, Oh, I'm just going to get so and so on my track and then like, that'll be that and like, I just think I just got tired of feeling like disrespected, you know, but because like, you know, a lot of the tracks that I would do, you know, would would blow up and it's just like, Oh, like, it just, it's a little bit of a sting, you know, to see people really benefit off of your voice and have huge careers and it's just like,

Nik (Detached audio): 7:58

yeah. they're sending those, those DJs off to go make 10 grand a night or 20 grand a night, you know all over the place, right? They're out there making a ton of it And the truth is is like the record wouldn't be big without your vocal on it if it was just a instrumental track You know what? I mean? So rightfully so like you definitely deserve to get the light that that you truly, uh, you know helped create as well

Kaleena Zanders: 8:22

Yeah, and also I had to, I had to remember, well I didn't have to remember, but I started to like, realize how much I love performing because I, um, I used to be in a rock band and I was the, you know, I was the front woman and I used to just always strive, I guess, to be In music as in a band or as an artist or something, I knew that that was something I did before, but, you know, I was just like, oh, I could, I just, I could, I could forget about that. But it just started coming. So, like, hard, like, you need to perform, you need to perform, you need to perform, you need to get out there. And I did have some, like, Awesome, like, performances at Coachella and EDC initially, like, with Sunburn and A. C. Slater. So, and going out in the clubs and just hopping up on their sets and singing, and so that kind of reignited that bug. And I just was like, you know what? I think I can probably do this on my own. And even though that, I mean, it was a thought at first, and a scary one, and it still really freaks me out. But, like, I was just like, let me just Try it because if I don't I can't be in this other place because I'm not happy there, you know what I mean? So I was like I had to have to figure out if this thing is gonna make me happy You know becoming a DJ performing all the time, you know,

Nik (Detached audio): 9:40

Yeah. So even though that thought was a bit scary, what gave you the courage to really actually go for it?

Kaleena Zanders: 9:48

Kind of a few things. I remember I actually remember very specifically having a huge breakdown And I was I had it was my birthday and I was in the forest and I got like some weird call I don't know why I even answered the call but um I mean, I answered the call. It's kind of funny, like it's like a, I answered the call and that was the thing that told me, but it was, but it wasn't a great thing. It's just, I answered that call. Yeah, literally the universe is like, today's the day you're going to switch over and become a DJ. But, um, yeah, I think it was just a combination of. You know, people putting my music out or my voice out without asking me type thing. I had started to like do my own shows and stuff when I was working with the DJ and the DJ was became unreliable. And so that was also a thing, you know, and I was like, I love playing instruments. I played them when I was growing up. So I was like, I could, I could probably just make the DJ decks like my instrument. and so I was like, all right, the combination of, you know, wanting to play out and the combination of having an unreliable DJ and then, like, just people screwing screwing me over left and right. Like, I'm just like, okay, I'm done.

Nik (Detached audio): 11:01

Yeah. For sure. And so how have you gone about really just Creating demand and establishing yourself, you know, really as, as an artist, you know, like there's, there's gotta be a bit of a process to that too. I imagine.

Kaleena Zanders: 11:17

Yeah. Well, I think the process. it got built without even me thinking about it and it literally it has to do with, you know, I'm thankful for this bit of it as a feature vocalist, like, I still would be so noticeable because I would, I would be on people's sets singing in clubs, like all over, literally, like I've got, I didn't even realize it's just kind of a natural pool to like, you know, communicate and go out and like. You know, hang with homies and all of those things. And like, it just happened where I, like, I was planting that seed without even knowing by performing everywhere, and then like, I just had the aha moment. I was like, wait a minute, I could, and then people, you know, start talking about, oh, Kalina, like hitting me up. Like, it was so great when you came out and sang and, you know, I loved it. You were the highlight or something like that. Like, that was like, number one, you were the highlight, you were the highlight, you were the highlight. So like, I was like, okay, cool. Like I should probably package this up and like, make it something. And then I do have a, like, I, and this is not like a calculated thing, but I do have, um, I did musical theater when I was a kid. And so like, I ha I understand what it means to perform. Even though I was, I, I hated musical theater, by the way, I did not like it, but it did teach me a lot about like, not breaking character or, learning how to adapt on the fly, you know, when things go wrong, or you just keep the focus on the audience, you know, so like between packaging something into a whole hour and my ability to perform, I think that is kind of creating this demand, you know, Yeah.

Nik (Detached audio): 12:48

Yeah. I love to see too, that you were planting those seeds all along the way, you know, cause like, again, my impression of you has always just been that, like. Kalina is one of the coolest people in the industry, everywhere she goes, everybody loves her. She's always bringing that, bringing that energy. And you've just been kind of doing that all along the way. Almost like winning over everybody that you come across. Whether that's a fan, whether that's an industry person, right? And it's like, it seems almost to me that like, you've kind of done this effortle But I know that can't be the case though as well. So I'm curious

Kaleena Zanders: 13:26

Oh, yeah.

Nik (Detached audio): 13:27

What kind of challenges, you know, you've had along the way, you know while you've made this transition, too

Kaleena Zanders: 13:34

Yeah, I think honestly the challenge is kind of the setup of dance music in general like and I came into dance music not even really like understanding it if that makes sense initially in 2015 like I was I was like, you know, trying to be a duo and I was trying to do singer songwriter stuff and blah blah. Had no understanding of from business to the fans to, you know, going out. I didn't have any like clue about that. So like the challenges that I faced, what were like more. Like me not understanding it, but then once I understood it, I was like, it doesn't have to be this way either. You know what I mean? Like challenges are as a vocalist, you know, you're, yes, that's what is habitual for the industry is to find a vocalist, get on song. I put out like, just like, like, it's just sort of like this very Neanderthal kind of. Thing and they're not thinking about you at all. You just like this is from the dynamic I think it's changing a ton. That's just how you're looked at

Nik (Detached audio): 14:42

Yeah. Yeah, I've seen it seeing a shift in the industry around that.

Kaleena Zanders: 14:46

Yeah, it completely and so that those are the challenges I had at first and now understanding why people didn't want me to be a part of their their brand or something, you know what I mean, and then kind of like I mean The reason why I'm saying this is because you don't see a lot of us black people, you know, you don't see a lot of black people, not because people are intentionally are saying we don't want black people, but it's just. like if the majority is let's say, you know, if the majority is all white dudes, right? They're all gonna they're all gonna promote their friends. They're gonna be their their friends and their men a lot of times their other friends are the white homie, dude You know what? I mean? so with the integration of like all of us, you know, black Hispanic blah blah whatever like all of us POC people. It's just like you don't see a bunch of us at the top of the same. We were not. We know you don't see a john summit unless you're green velvet, but green velvets already been like doing this thing forever car clocks has been doing this thing forever, but you don't need to see any new black people coming up and doing that, you know, or new Hispanic people, or I'm just saying the whole people see people in general. And so. that is seemingly a challenge because I'm a singer and I'm also I'm black and I'm trying to be seen in this in a place where there's not a lot of us, you know, and this is why I say this is the grace of the universe. At first, I wasn't even thinking that way, which I'm thankful for in a lot of ways because if I had it a little bit more like F these guys, they don't see me, I'm black, like, then I think my path would look different. I probably wouldn't be as kind and friendly with everyone. You know what I mean? but because I didn't have the sort of awakening until much later. And so I think that. It's been a weird blessing for me to kind of exist amongst everybody, and like you said, I have good energy and all that stuff, and I'm accepting of everyone. Really, I am. I'm not like, trying to make this a, you know, a race issue, but when you realize That though, it's a whole different, um, experience. It's a whole your mind is like, okay, there aren't gonna be too many people like me and okay, this feels awkward, you know? It

Nik (Detached audio): 16:58

know, we do hear a lot about how, especially the EDM space is very much a male dominated industry. we also don't really hear though that it is a white dominated industry. It is a white male dominated industry. You know, like there's not there's not that much color. Like if we just looks, you know, kind of statistically for real. I just want to, you know. I really want to celebrate you for being an innovator, for being a leader, for being that face. For being that badass queer black woman that's getting out there and showing people of color that like yo we got a spot here and you're you're claiming it and you're paving that path and it's so great for this You know future artists and future generations to see that to say hey, you know, hell yeah, we can do it too, right? So i'll fucking love that Yeah

Kaleena Zanders: 17:46

from, I mean, like I said, I didn't, I felt like I was walking through the industry really blind and then I had an awakening and now I understand why I'm here, if that makes sense. And also, I. Even convincing sometimes other, other black people to even like, cause it's like weird, cause like dance music started with black people, black and queer people, but now a certain group of black people don't like it. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's like this weird challenge of like wanting to, the culture to be. Inclusive, but then the side you want to be inclusive, they're like, fuck this. I'm like, ah, okay, you know, it's like, damn it, like, it's like, I'm, wait a minute, I'm trying to include, yeah, that's, but, you know, like I said, I am more intentional now about, you know, how I'm playing, who I'm playing for and where, you know, who's seeing it. I am starting to be more intentional because a lot of my conditioning in the industry is working with white males. And I like a lot of them. They're, a lot of them have been really nice to me on the flip side, you know, and really supportive. So this is no diss to any of like my friends literally at all. it's just, you can just see what is happening. So. You know, I'm not trying to be like a vigilante or anything, but I definitely am trying to be more intentional about the spaces I'm in and how I'm appearing and, you know, what I'm doing,

Nik (Detached audio): 19:07

yeah, and and what is what is that?

Kaleena Zanders: 19:09

there.

Nik (Detached audio): 19:10

Yeah, yeah. And what is that intention?

Kaleena Zanders: 19:14

so I, I honestly really, really love tech house and like bass music and There aren't any black people playing tech house per se. It's always like, you know, traditional house or actually I do, I know a little bubbling amount of us are starting, like, you know, later is like a little, it was like techno Tupac and dances. And, there's are a few of us who are like, who play tech house, but overall, like. There aren't that many people, black people, in PFC who play it on a large level, you know, so I'm just kind of like, adamant about, and I, but I really love it, so it's really authentic, I'm not like, it's not like this like, oh, I'm gonna play Tech House because there aren't any black people, it's just like, I actually really, genuinely love it. so,

Nik (Detached audio): 19:57

you know, I, I, talking about getting that call from the universe, I think that you do have a calling, you know, to, to create the space, right? And to, and to help really like open the doors for others, you know, like if you so choose to, To you know, you can just kind of participate in the system that's already there. You can also go and really kind of rearrange the system and create some new lanes. And that's that gets to be your role if you so choose to step up to

Kaleena Zanders: 20:22

yeah. Yeah, it's scary. It's scary and weird.

Nik (Detached audio): 20:26

yeah, yeah, it's more, it's more than just showing up and playing some fucking shows, dude. It's a bigger, it's a bigger, it's a, It's a mission and it's a purpose. It's important for sure. You know, that's what, that's what I try to like influence, you know, all artists as well as it's like, yo, you can either just kind of show up. Play the game, make the same shit everybody else is making or like actually really get in tune with yourself and like, what is your spiritual calling for being alive as a human right now? I think every single person has a very unique and specific that we are here to serve and we are here to give. And so, you know, you got to figure out what that is, but you also have to have the courage to listen to it when it does show up. And that might

Kaleena Zanders: 21:05

Ooh!

Nik (Detached audio): 21:06

doing shit that's a little bit left to center. That's a

Kaleena Zanders: 21:08

Oh! Yes. Yes. That's all it's And once you awake to that Awaken to that calling, you can't It doesn't go away. It just amplifies. And that the, it causes you to live in that uncomfortable, unknown space. It makes you feel the purpose that you have to fulfill. And like, like you said, it's, it's difficult for me because I am, I like everybody. Like I don't want to separate anybody from anything. I just want people to be fair. You know, and I'm very inviting and I'm very welcoming, you know, but like, I can see it. Like people, other, like, I'll get messages from like black Ravers or like, you know, other black artists who are coming up and like, they literally say those exact words. I'm so thankful to have a black, you know, queer person, woman, whatever, you know, in these spaces. They literally say that verbatim and I'm like, and I just cry. I'm like tearing

Nik (Detached audio): 22:05

you, you can't ignore it. You can't ignore it. You know? And, and the thing is too, even if like once you have been called, like you said, it's not going anywhere. It's gonna be just sitting there gently knocking at your fucking door, whispering in your ear. When you try to go to sleep at night, it is always gonna be in the back of your head. And you know, if you are. Obeying it and leaning into it and listening to it or if you're avoiding it, you know, so I'm excited for you I'm so pumped to hear that like you have been like as you said you you've you've woken up to the bigger picture Of what's actually happening here? Fuck. Yeah, let's

Kaleena Zanders: 22:38

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, just taking back, I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Literally.

Nik (Detached audio): 22:45

uh You said, you made a post, on your Instagram fairly recently about how, touring and playing shows and traveling has like really changed you. in what ways has it changed you? Like what, what was that post all about?

Kaleena Zanders: 23:02

Well. Number one, the best part of it is I think I understand dance music a whole lot more. Like, I, I, I think I've re fallen in love with dance music because of touring, because when you're playing, because you get to see in real time how people enjoy dance music. And the benefit, obviously, is if you've created a set or you're curating or playing in the moment songs that they really resonate with, it is just, it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful to to see that in real time and you just feel like an amazing conduit for these like energies, you know, so to me, that's the number 1 thing that has like. Changed for me is I, I fall in love with dance music and I'm obsessed with it now. I would say the second thing is that it's helped me like reclaim my space and the space I've always needed to reclaim as an artist. And what I've been trying to do before, like being in the rock band, being, you know, a solo artist, whatever those things I was trying to achieve. I can now fulfill that too because I've seen on, I've sung on so many different songs. I was like, wow, I have like, I have a whole body of work, you know, five hours over, you know, I can play whatever. so I, I, I've reclaimed my space as an artist and that feels really good. Um, and the third thing is the way I think I'm looked at in the industry now. You know, I mean, I, I know, believe me, I know there's like ranks and there's hierarchies and there's like different positions and people who are happy. Some people are mad, you know, because that's just like, people are naturally going to be a little bit either jealous or some people are like, I've been doing this for forever. And then like, how come, you know, they get a spot. I already know that, that like, that happens because I hear it. Not to me directly, but I just know when something pops off or like people go crazy, they get all weird and the egos get all crazy. but nonetheless, it has helped me like, yeah, just be a different kind of game player in the, in dance music.

Nik (Detached audio): 25:17

Sure, and I know that there are probably a lot of other, you know, young singers that are out there right now that they're doing, they're playing the top line game, they're getting those featured spots on other artists and producers songs. But deep down, you know, their dream actually really is to, you know, be the artist and they are an artist, but they probably have a similar vision of being like, yo, I want to be on stage. playing my songs to my fans and not just be the the guest artist what kind of Tips, would you have for those other, you know young singers out there? that might want to take that a similar path

Kaleena Zanders: 25:59

I think there's a couple different ways. I think featuring and you know, those collabs are actually really important because that does help build the conversation that helps put some eyes on you and whatever. also you have to decide. Like kind of early on will I want to be an artist or do I just want to stay a feature artist? I think that's some those are some things that you have to like decide early on I think Because I mean and that's what I would have done in hindsight um, because the more because he gets addicting it gets a little bit addicting like doing the feature stuff because you just like It's kind of quick. You're like, all right, I sing the song. Ideally, they're paying you the money. And that's a whole nother thing. The respect that's, you know, um, and then you can just go about your day and you build up your little cash and it's fine. But, you know, but if you want to be an artist. You have to like, be more intentional about your collabs and features. You have to make sure you're putting out your music a lot and first and foremost before the features and things like that. You know, it just, it's just a little bit more strategic when you're trying to be, become an artist.

Nik (Detached audio): 27:04

yeah, I think that part that you said about Really making that decision It kind of goes back to what we were saying before about just Listening to your calling and answering that calling, like if that is your vision, if that's really what you want is you want to be on stage and you want to be touring and you want to be like doing that, if that is the calling that's on your heart and the vision that is really, you know, whispering in your ear at night, then. You got to just first off, make the decision that, that you are gonna go for it and that that is gonna be part of your, you know, your plan and your path and your strategy.'cause like you said, it can also be easy to just kind of chase the money and, and ignore that vision. Just say, you know what, well, this is good enough. I'm, I'm getting paid to make music. Like, that's cool and you can be ha you know, happy and fulfilled with that perhaps to a certain extent. But if what you really, really want. Is to actually be on stage Then making that decision and being really clear about that. I think is is a really really important thing

Kaleena Zanders: 28:09

Yeah, 100%, because now, and I'm saying this, I didn't have that, I didn't do that early on, and partly because I just didn't know, you know, I just didn't wonder, you know, sometimes, you know, depression, weird things will take you out of your alignment, so like, and sometimes it could go on for a long time, you know, whatever, whatever, but, talking about, it's very hard to shift out of feature to becoming an artist, not because The industry won't accept you per se. It's hard because you become so accustomed to saying yes to a lot of things. You know, you're like, yeah, no problem. I hop on that. Yeah, no problem. And then people, and then people create the habit of always hitting you up just to hop on something real quick, you know, instead of looking at you with delicately or as an artist or, hey, I want to collab with you. And I want to, you, I want us to do brand for brand and like show, showcase our awesome talents together. so I will say that, you know, If you're building up all of that, like, and you're trying to switch over, you have, you have to set boundaries with people after a while, and that was really hard for me. You know? And sometimes that can be perceived as being, uh, mean, you know, or keep perceived as whatever it is. Like, oh, she's not gonna be do it for me now. It's like, it's like, well no, because like I have to be an artist and in order for me to do that, like I can't just do everything. You know, and that's the hardest part to navigate, and you're, it's, it crushes my soul, not so much anymore, I've gotten used to setting boundaries a little bit more, and also I have a manager, I have a team, and a whole bunch of things, but, like, initially I didn't have any of that, and I was like, pulling my hair out, like, cause I felt like I was letting the homie down, you know what I mean?

Nik (Detached audio): 29:55

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like, it's like a muscle. It's like flexing a new muscle. If you haven't ever really set strong boundaries for yourself in your life, and this goes professionally, personally, you know, like a lot of us can fall into kind of people pleasing tendencies. A lot of us don't really have a strong muscle around boundary setting. And so In the beginning, it's hard. Cause it's like the same, it's like the first day you went to the gym. First day you try to run, you're like, fuck man, this is hard. But if you keep showing up and you keep practicing it, you keep flexing it. All of a sudden you're like, okay, cool. No, I know how to set, set boundaries. And I know how to do it gracefully where it's like, no, it's cool. You know, I can do it with love and we're good. I love you, but you know what? This just isn't in alignment with, with what I need. And it's a, it's a skill that you have to develop it. That only comes with practice.

Kaleena Zanders: 30:42

Yeah, and it's tough, it's tough. It gets better, it gets better, you're right, um, but, You know, it's actually pain, like, sometimes I'd, when I would set the boundary, like, I'd just be in my bed, not crying, but just, just like, ugh, like, almost feeling so just, I don't know, just weird and awkward for, like, three days, being like, I can't believe I said no to that person, but I don't really want to do it, but I can't, because, you know, like, this whole battle, and, yeah, it used to rip me apart, but now, you know, you, like you said, you, I've become stronger, but also I have now a team that believes in me as an artist. So it makes me believe more, you know, I have my manager. He really, really is like. He, even times when I feel down, he's just like, solid as a rock, you know, ready to go. And, um, he just like, whips me back into like, action.

Nik (Detached audio): 31:38

that's so good. You know, that's kind of the first time I think somebody has really brought that up on the podcast, which is worth being repeated, which is the importance of having people in your corner that believe in you, right? Like when you're. Maybe starts to waver and maybe some of that self doubt creeps in. Maybe you don't believe in yourself as much, but you have a manager or other team members in your corner that are like, yo, no, you, you got this. We're doing this together. Uh, that's so important. Cause we all, we all need that just in life in general. We all need our, you know, cheerleaders and our coaches. I mean, that's why I do what I do is to be that rock in people's life. Just to say, Hey bro, like you got this, let's go, you know, I'm going. I'm going to help you keep your eye on the prize because all of us start to drift off it sometimes. So that's really cool that you've been able to find that with your team and your manager.

Kaleena Zanders: 32:28

yeah, yeah. He's, I have to, I thank him all the time and every day. Even if we have to have like, uncomfortable conversations. Which is kind of often.

Nik (Detached audio): 32:37

Yeah.

Kaleena Zanders: 32:38

Like,

Nik (Detached audio): 32:39

What's it? What's What's, his name? Let's shout.

Kaleena Zanders: 32:41

Travis. Travis Alexander!

Nik (Detached audio): 32:45

Shout out. Shout out. Travis Alexander. We love you. Thank you for being the rock supporting that BKE. Yeah.

Kaleena Zanders: 32:54

That's right! He really, yeah. And he came to, he came, I was like, he came to me, but we've actually been friends since Like 2015 and he was managing a few other artists, but I know, but I wasn't ready to like, you know, do any of like have him as a manager, you know, it was just friends and then I was managing myself in 2018, 2019 and it was just so overwhelming and then like during the pandemic happened, I was so thankful cause I mean, I could take a moment to like reset and then in that reset. There he was,

Nik (Detached audio): 33:28

What are, some qualities that he has that you think are good qualities for people to look out for when they're considering working with the manager?

Kaleena Zanders: 33:38

ooh, yeah, um, somewhat, you have to feel, comfortable enough, vulnerable enough to be your full self in front of that person, and have to be able to take, uh, criticism from that person. Criticism, not, or feedback, you know, not necessarily criticism, but feedback, cause criticism is a weird thing, like, it could be, that could be detrimental to your health, but, You have to feel like you can let down your guard with that person. And, that isn't easy. And I'm not saying, and you should kind of never let your guard down in a lot of ways, but you should work to get, like, he would tell me how stubborn I was in the beginning. And then he's like, dude, if you just trusted me and I was like, yeah, but it's just hard because you know, in this business, I felt this kind of way and coming to like, trust you, it is going to take some time. And he was willing to wait for that. Because he believed in whatever that I, that I had. You know what I mean? like he was very patient with me and allowed me to just spitball all these like crazy things that, you know, all my hurt and whatever, and then still was able to devise a plan amongst all of the, to me, to me it was chaotic, you know?

Nik (Detached audio): 34:54

Yeah. Yeah. That's where, that's where the manager gets to be a little bit of like the therapist as well. You know, that's honestly how I got into what I was doing. I was, I was a, I was a manager, but I was like, you know, I'm not actually that good at all the business shit. I'm really good at like the, the navigating the therapy and the emotional side of things. That's like, let me just, let me just do that. So that's how I ended up kind of going down this path.

Kaleena Zanders: 35:17

what you just said was, I think key too to finding a great manager. Find a manager who actually really is obsessed with the business of music because he will like go, I'm not his only, only client, but I hear like he just will, he'll go to meetings. I mean, he'll do things on, even on my behalf. Like he'll just, he's so proactive. Because he loves it. He loves the, the everyday hustle and bustle of talking to so and so and, you know, navigating that and positioning and like, he like, he likes it outside of me. So I think that having that kind of passion. Like, having a manager who has that kind of passion, who's just willing to just love music. Cause it's, it's, I feel like music is crazy. I'd never want to be a manager. Like, I'd, I would never, ever want to be a manager. Ha ha ha ha! Woo!

Nik (Detached audio): 36:11

for sure for

Kaleena Zanders: 36:12

And we're all like adult babies. Fuck that!

Nik (Detached audio): 36:17

was it honestly, man when I was I was managing a bunch of artists like right when I went right when I first started I was managing a bunch of DJs and it was like I was just babysitting just kids getting drunk every Friday I hate it was just going out being a fucking wild I was like is this what I signed up for like I'm literally just trying to like make sure these guys don't kill themselves like This is not, this is wild. But, I can't imagine managing a fucking, a rock band or a metal band. Like, I have some friends in the metal world and they're like, Yo, our whole job is that we got five dudes that we just have to make sure, like, They don't kill themselves. Like, that's our whole job. It's not even, barely about, it's like 90 percent that and like 10 percent the music business. It's just dealing with fucking rockstar drama, you know? That's a whole different level.

Kaleena Zanders: 37:02

Well, maybe that's why he likes it, cause he used to be in a metal band.

Nik (Detached audio): 37:06

Ah, yeah, he likes the chaos.

Kaleena Zanders: 37:08

he Oh, yeah, he and he he managed bands growing up or like, you know growing up in industry, so he likes it

Nik (Detached audio): 37:17

that's funny. That's funny. So back to, you know, artists that are wanting to. Come out of the top line world and actually really go and establish themselves as touring artists. What I'm hearing is that, first off is just being clear about, you know, making the decision if that's something that you really want to do. learning how to start saying no to certain opportunities that might not be supporting you in getting there. Having those boundaries.

Kaleena Zanders: 37:43

when they look good even when they look good,

Nik (Detached audio): 37:45

also having a team, uh, building a team around you, a team that really believes in you and supports you. what else is going to help people on that, on that path and journey?

Kaleena Zanders: 37:55

honestly mental health like I've Recently started taking a therapist and I wish I started doing this a lot sooner. Um,

Nik (Detached audio): 38:04

Hell yeah.

Kaleena Zanders: 38:05

yeah, I mean, and it takes a minute to sometimes it takes a minute to find the right therapist, but, you know, it, it changed me in a way because I was able to have dialogue about my life on the outside and it wasn't all in my head, you know, so, and sometimes my little qualms or whatever the little things I'm like, frustrated about sad about is just. Yeah. Me trying to answer the questions inside instead of bouncing it off of someone else, you know, and you know, this industry is very volatile. It's very stressful. And if you allow that to, if that's the thing that is, you know, making you happy, or, you know. if, uh, the industry and music are the only thing that, that makes you happy, then, like, you're kind of in for a roller coaster of emotions, you know, you have to find, like, you have to find other ways to, like, deal with it and a lot of times. It's therapy, because sometimes it's just, even if something you feel they did you wrong, sometimes it's just a projection, sometimes it's just a, yeah, it's just like you, you have these like lenses on of what you think should have happened. What happens now is like, I can analyze something a little bit better, even if it is a situation that doesn't feel so comfortable, I can still analyze both sides. And then, Navigate from there, and that's from, because I'm talking out childhood issues, and it's like, oh, I only responded that way because this is how I set it up because in my childhood, X, y, Z happens, you know? But, um, a lot of times it's just survival methods and that people have. But, yeah, I would say find a good therapist and, try to talk out as much as you can.

Nik (Detached audio): 39:48

yeah.

Kaleena Zanders: 39:48

Or life coach. Or

Nik (Detached audio): 39:50

else? Hey. Hey. Right now y'all come through I got you. I'm not it's interesting because you know coaching is a bit different in the sense that you know We're really looking at where you're at right now in the present and then we're more so looking towards the future of like Alright, where is it that you want to go? We're really focused on goal setting and accountability. Cool. Let's get you there As opposed to with therapy, it goes a lot into the past of like, all right, this is where you're at. Let's go into the past and figure out what happened back then. That's kind of contributing to this present state that you're in. So those are kind of the, the, the The main very, very generalized description of the differences just between coaching and therapy. Like, I'm also, you know, as a therapist, you do have to be a professionally, you know, government certified, uh, you know, therapists, whereas coaching, anybody can be a coach. I do have a, you know, international coaching. Federation, you know, certificate and training training that I've done to be a coach. But, but that's the, yeah, that's, that's kind of the main difference. But at the same time, you know, there's this messy area in the middle where we all kind of do the same thing, which is just ultimately helping people, helping people feel better, you know, so that they can get through the day and go crush goals and be the best version of themselves, you know, by any means necessary.

Kaleena Zanders: 41:10

Wow, that's good to hear the difference. That's really cool.

Nik (Detached audio): 41:13

Yeah. I mean, in a perfect world, we'd all have both. It's like, I may have someone I can kind of dig up my, My shit with, and like go into those, those deeper places. But then let me also have somebody here that's really kind of focused on the future and the goals that I, that I want to help create. I mean, you know, your manager in your, in a, in a lot of ways is kind of as your coach, you know, he's like, Hey, where, where are we going? How are we getting there? I'm gonna be here to, you know, give you, give you that inspiration and that confidence as well as that strategy, you know? So yeah, we need that support. We need that support in all areas, mentally, emotionally.

Kaleena Zanders: 41:47

Oh my god. I would not be anywhere without Travis. I wouldn't be anywhere. Now, now I'm doing, uh, now I have an agent. I wouldn't be anywhere without them. Like, I have a lawyer, you know, like, just all those things really like help, you know, take a lot off my plate so I can be a creator, which is all I really want ever is to create and showcase my art and have people like it. That's, those are my, that's my main goal. Ha ha

Nik (Detached audio): 42:13

love to hear a little bit about your creative process. Because you, you are just such an incredible songwriter. You're such an incredible singer. You're such an incredible artist. I have yet to see you dj. I don't know if you're an incredible dj. I haven't been to a Colle Xanders show yet, but you know, I'm gonna have to roll out and and see you and see you bring it, uh, But what's your actual creative process when it comes to writing? I'm curious to hear about that.

Kaleena Zanders: 42:40

Yeah. So it has evolved over time. it used to just be me just creating out of nowhere, you know, sitting at a, at a computer, you know, open up the DA and just like, you know, plunk out beats and just like express with no, um, no intention, which is something, which is something I miss. and then evolving into dance music, it was. Me just writing and trying to get pump out, you know, top lines then it was collaboration so I learned a lot about collaboration with you know being in dance music and Now collaboration is all I do with other writers is because I don't have time the way that I used to to sit and reflect and About myself to write something out. If that makes sense. Like I do a lot of reflecting in general, just I analyze, but like the session sometimes creates the time for you to sit there with other ones and just talk out your stuff. And then you guys are writing the song and that's kind of like how I do it now because I'm on, you know, I'm on the road and then I, you know, I'm managing this and managing that, you know, like there's a lot of, there's so many more variables right now that take my attention away from. Just having that the artist brain and like just being just walking outside and just fucking smell the tree You know like all of those like more calm and like more just like yeah, I would just say reflective times I don't I have less of that and I still I definitely take my daily walks and I do my journaling in the morning and those things but The everyday creation, which is I am in the middle of finish finishing up an EP My everyday CRE creation has been, collaborations and finishing up songs with producers and friend. Most of the people I work with, all my friends, um, and just getting just kind of project managing and in a lot of ways, but because I miss, I do miss, um, the random inspiration and just sitting at down at a desk. I bought some, like, I bought a looper, a voice looper, and, um, I am now going to. Which is I gave myself a task because you have to give yourself a task. So I bought myself a voice looper. I'm going to learn it and then start putting on the internet, like me with me singing my little ditties, you know, with a voice looper. So that to me will bring back like that sort of childlike, you know, inspiration where. You just do it just because and it's not for the business of what, you know, and the, the project, you know, so, yeah, and I set up my little, like, my little station and I just feel good about that. I feel like reinvigorated as a, like, a creator is just to, like, have instruments around me that I can access and just, you know,

Nik (Detached audio): 45:21

yeah, and I see this a lot as a challenge for artists of When you're coming up you kind of have all the time and space in the world. There's not a lot of expectations You know, maybe there's maybe there's some pressure just to succeed perhaps but then it's like once you start doing it professionally It changes because it's like, now is my business and this is my career and there's a whole different set of just thoughts and expectations that come with it. imagine that's, that's kind of, uh, it's got to be challenging at times. And I guess I'm just wondering, like, how do you get those thoughts out of your head though? Where, when, when you start to get stressed out and it starts to become too much of the business, you know, how do you balance that?

Kaleena Zanders: 46:04

because. Yeah. Yeah. I'm always planting little musical babies everywhere. and like I work with people and then for instance today I got back a track that I had worked on for a long time and coil, he like redid it, right? He like made it like disco e and amazing and I was just like. I don't know how to explain it, but it's just like, when people give you back things, or like, they, a bouncer, like, you did, like, a long time ago, six months ago, a year ago, and they're like, I just did this cool thing, you know, and then, like, you're like, Ugh! I love music! You know what I mean? Where, whereas, like, I have been spending a lot of time finishing my project because I'm signed to a label and then that's very challenging to because, like, I have, you know, reference points in my, in myself of what I feel is authentic and also what I think could be successful to and. I would say I'm an, I, even though I, I'm very like vocal, I'm very stern about how I feel, I still am, I think that I'm flexible a little bit to hearing how, because now you have to think about hits and what's going to be a good song and like, you know, how, how many people are going to listen to it, all those things. I think I'm relatively okay with That side of it. I have to trust make sure that it follows like the certain guidelines of being soulful and I'm singing, you know, not that not these little like flipping like sample bits, you know, I have to have to make sure I'm telling a story. Yeah. Yeah. And as long as I'm doing those things like and yeah, as long as it has a certain, these certain guidelines, I can still kind of give up a little bit of a tiny bit of creative, like, oversight just to make sure that we all, because I have to work collaboratively with the label, and then I have, you know, everybody's like, thinking about the songs, but thankfully the songs are good, and I don't have to, like, there's not too much critique, I guess.

Nik (Detached audio): 47:56

What I'm hearing here is that it really is all about balance. And this is the, the balancing act of balancing the art and the business, right? There's a lot of artists that are just like, yo, I love the art and I'm so artistic and like, that's cool. But like, they also aren't really. Running a business. They're not making money. They're struggling and they're stuck in that starving artist world. And then on the other side too, there's people that are like, just doing it for the business. It's super kind

Kaleena Zanders: 48:20

Oof. Uuugh. No.

Nik (Detached audio): 48:23

in it. Right.

Kaleena Zanders: 48:24

for me. Yeah.

Nik (Detached audio): 48:25

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I know that would never happen to you, but that, but it does have to be, it has to be both right for it to really, truly resonate with people and have the right, you know, have that soulful, uh, just spirit and energy in it, you know, on the art. But also still, you know, kind of follow some of the guidelines and the structure of like what actually works and having the proper marketing and business behind it. So it's the synergy of both of those. You know, I've talked about duality multiple times before. It's just the duality. It is kind of the masculine and the feminine, the yin and the yang. We're artists, but we're also business owners. You know, we are, we are spiritual beings, but we're also having the human experience and it's not one or the other. And so finding the integration and the synergy of both of those is where our, our, we're going to really ultimately have the most success and be operating at our highest selves.

Kaleena Zanders: 49:17

Yeah. A thousand percent.

Nik (Detached audio): 49:20

Yeah.

Kaleena Zanders: 49:21

it's a really fine line and a balance, cause, yeah, once you sign to a label, like, they have their thoughts, you know, and I have my own thoughts, and, you know, sometimes I'm a bit stubborn in it, just because I, you know, I believe in the track, but I generally feel, like, I'm not, like, tooting my own horn, but maybe I am, I'm just, I really feel like I have a good, Like A& R's sensibility about a track, if that makes sense. I feel like because I'm playing out, because I follow dance music, you know, I listen to the deep cuts and underground stuff to the middle ground, overground, and I try to like find my, where do I live within all of that, you know? Because honestly, I still love pop. I like pop music. I love all things and it has been a really unique journey trying to Fit how you fit pop, soul, house. And radio records and be cool, you know, like it's like, it's a big experiment, you know, and it's actually really fun. And I enjoy, I enjoy the business. I enjoy being an artist. And I feel like I've already done the whole like stubborn artist. This is my craft. Like, I've done that, you know, a million times over. And, you know, I, I, Do you intend to be successful? I mean, I'm successful now, but I mean, there's a certain level of success. I would like to get to for sure. and, um, to me, that doesn't necessarily mean like money. It just means like, it means that a huge group of people all over the world are listening to my music and they love it. that's what I see. to get there, there. Different ways, you know. Hoo!

Nik (Detached audio): 50:55

Well, I have no doubt in my mind that you are going to only continue to attract a bigger and bigger audience and that more and more people are going to fall in love with you. I also do, I'm going to call it right now. I think you're going to win a fucking Grammy. I see that in your future. I think that is going to happen. Let's, I'm going to speak that into existence right now. We're starting the process of manifestation. Grammy is coming to Kalina. Let's go, baby.

Kaleena Zanders: 51:20

Hoo! I Yes! Ha ha!

Nik (Detached audio): 51:25

Yeah,

Kaleena Zanders: 51:26

me!

Nik (Detached audio): 51:27

my girl. Goddamn. I love you so much, Kalina. Thank you for taking the time to hop on today. Like, honestly just one of my favorite people. Like I said, big Kalina energy. I hope that everybody can, tap into that. That they can feel that that they can bring some of that to their own life. Because it is fucking contagious and it feels so good to be around. And, uh, I really can't wait to see you again someday. Hopefully sooner than later.

Kaleena Zanders: 51:50

Yes. Thank you. You are also one of my favorite people, and thank you. I've always enjoyed our talks. Like, seriously, and I would, I'd love to go for a hike, I don't know where you live, but I'd love to, let's, let's do some outdoor activity or get some frog legs again, whatever we need to do.

Nik (Detached audio): 52:05

I'm in Austin right now, so if you make it out to Austin, um, we will, we will, link up for sure, um, but when I come back to L. A., we're gonna go eat some fuckin frog legs again.

Kaleena Zanders: 52:17

I'm ready.

Nik (Detached audio): 52:19

Alright,

Kaleena Zanders: 52:19

I'm ready.

Nik (Detached audio): 52:20

go.