Matthew Cagle, Rig 'Em Right Outdoors

Waterfowler Matthew Cagle created a groundbreaking decoy weighting system that revolutionized the waterfowl industry. Fast forward to today, and his company is one of the leading gear companies in the game. Cagle joins the show to talk about how Rig ‘Em Right came to be and how the company remains innovative in a copycat world. We also jump into a frank discussion on how the current trade wars and tariffs impact the hunting industry. 

Thanks to our sponsors: Tom Beckbe, Lile Real Estate, Perfect Limit Outdoors, Purina Pro Plan, Sitka Gear, Greenhead: The Arkansas Duck Hunting Magazine and Ducks Unlimited.

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Transcript

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Welcome to The Standard Sportsman Podcast. The show features trending topics, touching all aspects of duck and goose hunting in an effort to motivate others to leave the resource better than they found it. Hosts Cason Short and Brent Birch are lifelong Arkansas hunter conservationists, delivering thought-provoking discussions with engaging guests before, during, and after duck season. Thanks for spending time with us today. Now let's jump into today's show with the guys.

Hey guys, it's Brent and Cason back with another edition of The Standard Sportsman podcast. We're on the tail end of turkey season, unless, at least it is here in Arkansas, and I'm sure just wrapping up in most places too. I didn't chase them. In fact, I hadn't chased them in quite some time. I had some success early on in my turkey hunting career and just got busy. And our season is so short here in Arkansas, I just didn't take it up. But it sure seems like plenty of people are chasing them nowadays. I don't know if it quite rivals duck hunting, but man, my social media feed is full of turkey hunters.

It's either picked up in popularity or the algorithm has you and I both pinged for it because it is all I see. It doesn't help that Ed Wall I think posts 17 pictures a day of turkeys, so that could be some of the problems. Sorry, Ed.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a, yeah, I don't know either. I don't know. You're right. I don't know whether the algorithm picked it up or just that many more people are chasing them than it used to be. But it sure seems like an influx. And I'm sure there's some that have a similar concern that some of the duck hunting community has that are we going to put too much on these birds? Because we all know there's some population struggles with them too, especially depending on where you are. So I don't know. That was kind of interesting to see that escalation, it seems, this year. And it sure is a lot of talk about it, too. You see a lot of podcasts talking about it. You see a lot of the YouTube element growing. So kind of paralleling duck season a little bit.

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. You and I have talked about and are making plans to have some guests on to talk more about turkey, the science of turkeys and everything else. But it really does. There seems to be a little bit of a kind of a split in opinion there as there is in Waterfowl. You know, even in our advisory council, a lot of people are really happy with Arkansas and the apparent increase in population by moving the season back. But I've got a friend locally who lifelong abut turkey hunter loves it and is just fed up with having to wait until the mating season is over. It's just that birds don't gobble, they don't respond the same. It's so much tougher to kill birds now than it was before. And I totally understand this point. And then I see the science side of it too. So I guess the duck hunting community is definitely not alone in some of their struggles on personal preference over maybe what's good for the resource. But some that we're trying to dive into a little more and just got to line up the right guests. But we've had a good string of waterfowl guests here on lately. So we haven't had much time to get into turkeys.

No, you're right. You're right. And yeah, I kind of hear the same thing regarding turkeys. Some people are saying, man, we're seeing so many more birds than we were before. Let's let them keep building up. Let's not change anything. And then you get others that, man, I'm having such a hard time with Arkansas turkeys because when the season, and exactly what you're saying, they're done gobbling, not seeing the activity that they hoped. But so yeah, you get both sides of the fence on what to do with it. But yeah, it'd be interesting to talk turkeys a little bit. I mean, I've done it enough to be able to have an intelligent conversation. And my mother's farm is good turkey country, and they've done well this season, except my oldest son, who chases him pretty hard, has come up short. He's hunted a couple of different places, but that's just how it goes. He's pretty lucky. He's the one that's, you know, he shot a 10 point and eight point back to back. He shot a GPS Drake this year. So I mean, I was like, come on, man. You've had a pretty good run.

Don't feel bad for him.

No, no, not at all.

Well, it it almost kind of goes against that, that mindset that you and I have about ducks. If you take care of the resource, the hunters will be happy, you know, but it's a little different because we are not really hunting ducks in a breeding season situation like that, where the hunting style, two different approaches there. But yeah, there's a lot of people that are really happy with the increased population in Arkansas and harvest numbers are going up, which backs up the population. We've seen birds in our farm in the last two or three years, which is, I mean, never in my lifetime have we ever seen a turkey on our farm. So the science side of it's working, there's more birds. But I think, and Arkansas, I think is trying to address that a little bit with the new zones that the commissioners talked about as well. So maybe trying to strike a balance there, but yeah. Interesting for sure.

Yeah, for sure. I agree.

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The Standard Sportsman is brought to you by Perfect Limit Outdoors, the creators of the designated puller Automatic Jerk Rig. This is one product creating motion throughout your entire decoy spread. Check it out at perfectlimitoutdoors.com and make the water move. Well, let's circle back to our wheelhouse, which is Ducks. So, I'm looking forward to this conversation today, not endorsed or sponsored by this particular company, but I do use their decoys because of our good friend Jeff White. So, had a lot of fun bringing out the blackout decoys, and people going, what in the hell is that? And then we kill ducks and they're like, oh, okay. But yeah, maybe we'll get to talk about that a little bit too, but why don't you go into who we got today and we'll get rolling. Yeah.

Yeah, man, I'm excited about this one. I think it's a really cool story of a brand and how the right place, right time, found the right people, and really grew into a fantastic brand and just a super guy in the industry, someone I'm proud to call a friend. But Matthew Cagle is going to join us today and tell us all about how he got started and got Rig'Em Right where it is. So Matthew, welcome to the show.

Hey, thank you. I appreciate you all having me.

Yeah, we're excited to have this conversation. And I think in the end, if people want to stick around to the last of it, we're going to talk about a little political climate and how that's going to could impact all duck hunters this year. So but I want to hear more about how you got started. And because I've heard some stories, I've been some trade shows with you and seen you talk to different folks. I know, I mean, from from the base of where you started to the Running Gun Tour, to everything else, you've you've had a pretty cool pretty cool run, pretty cool story.

Yeah, it's been a it's been a wild ride and one that I guess never never planned. Never dreamed it, never planned it. It just sort of happened.

So tell me, how did it start? What was what was the impetus between or behind Rig'Em Right?

Well, you know, I mean, I could go way back to the beginning. People, you know, have, you know, a lot of people assume you grew up hunting and, you know, your dad hunted and all that. And I mean, the truth is, is my granddad on my mom's side, her dad and my mom, you know, grew up hunting a lot. But my granddad was a big time hunter. And unfortunately, they lived three hours away. So I, you know, get to hunt just a few times a year when we were there for, you know, Thanksgiving, Christmas. And he's mostly a deer hunter. Loved to fish and all that. But my dad was not a hunter. I mean, he, he's a worker. I mean, that's what he's always done is work. I mean, he worked in a factory and worked on our cars. And, you know, he's the kind of guy that he's not going to pay somebody to do something he can do himself. And, you know, we, we always had really old crappy cars. And so that meant he had to work on them all the time. And he just wasn't a guy that was, you know, going to get up at four in the morning and go, and go, you know, chase ducks or go fishing and stuff like that. So, you know, it was really not till I was 16, you know, I mean, I hunted with some of my buddies whose dad were, you know, big time duck hunters, and I just fell in love with duck hunting. You know, when I was 13, 14, I got a summer job working at a kennel, throwing bumpers for, you know, guy training retrievers and kind of when it got into it that way, you know, it was almost like more, I fell in love with the labs that fetched the ducks before I even was shooting ducks. But I always joke that like part of the reason that I came up with all these hunting products was because my dad was not a hunter and therefore all the gear I had was just crappy. I mean, it was just a hodgepodge of, you know, some blue duffel bag he got, you know, at a trade show or something. And it was just fall apart. It was nothing I had was made for hunting. You know, my decoy anchors were whatever I could rummage out of the shop. I mean, from drawer pulls to hinges, to bolts and a piece of brick with a hole through it. And my stuff just stayed tangled. My decoys were terrible. And from the time I was, you know, 15, 16, and I really started getting into it when I, you know, could drive, I was like, just stayed frustrated all the time. So that's where I kind of came up with all these solutions for rigging. And that was really kind of where it started. You know, I went to college and I always joked that hunting, you know, is pretty much, you know, why it took me six and a half years to get a four year degree. Because I was always in the woods. I mean, I was always fishing or hunting or, you know, skipped a lot of class during, you know, opening days and, you know, during the rut and stuff like that. So it took me a while. But I majored in civil engineering at NC State. I played baseball there. And then when I got out of college, I went to work for a construction company. And I mean, they put me at the bottom. You know, my first day on the job, I had a stop and slow sign on the paving crew. And worked my way up, you know, as an equipment operator, ran dozer, track hose, you know, motor radars, you name it. I spent, you know, a year or two just on equipment. And then, you know, I did that for about five or six years. And by the time I left, you know, I was a foreman and then a superintendent. And I was doing big highway jobs. And I absolutely love the work, love the people, love the diesel fuel, love the equipment, the smell of dirt, the end of the day, looking back and seeing what you've done, you know. Now, pretty much my job, it's like, I feel like I've accomplished something if my, you know, inbox is empty and I move a stack of papers from one side of my desk to the other, you know. And I still go by a job site and I roll the windows down. I want to smell the dirt. It's my favorite work that I've ever done. But I was working, I mean, it was dark when I left, dark when I got home and I did that six days a week and I didn't get to hunt. And so I started looking for another job. I got a job in sales, selling construction products back, you know, to the industry that I've been working in. And sales job, you know, afforded me more time to get back into hunting. And so that's what I did. And, you know, I helped one of my college buddies start a duck club here in eastern North Carolina. And we got that up and running. And, you know, I was doing a lot of hunting and getting some sales experience. And I just one day, I said, you know, I'm going to see if I can't get some something cooking with some of these gadgets that I've dreamed up hunting. And that's what I did. You know, we took off, made 100 packs of pre rigged decoy anchors and hopped in my truck and drove to Wisconsin for the DU, their big annual, you know, whatever trade show. And I sold out of 100 packs of handmade anchors in the first eight hours of a three, four day show. And it was, I was like, wow, I mean, people are eating this up, you know. And that's where we met Phil Robertson, duck commander, and he loved the product. And he said, how many can you get me? And how quickly can you do it? And I said, well, I can get you as many as you want. And I'll work as fast as I can. So me and the wife and the kids in the garage are making deco anchors and sending them Duck Commander. And they named us their official rigging partner of Duck Commander. And man, they were just a big help and very instrumental and made a lot of phone calls for us. And you know, they got us in the door at a lot of the big retailers. And we were off to the races. So that's the short and sweet story of how we got started.

Yeah, I'm sure it was all short and sweet to get to this point. Anybody knows a small business, starting something like that, it's anything but short and sweet. But I was not aware of your baseball connection. I also played baseball at the University of Arkansas.

Oh, nice.

Yeah. Yeah, so college baseball tie in there. We don't get to talk a lot of ACC on this show. In fact, we talk mostly about Mississippi State for some reason. Cason being a Mississippi State grad, all these biologists are Mississippi State grads. And so I got to listen to it until now, you know, now it's our time of year.

So we can't talk baseball right now, so we might as well brag where we can.

No, no, Mississippi State's not where it should be, but I don't know, y'all make the right hire, you'll be right back.

How's the Hogs doing this year?

Yeah, really, really well. Spent a little time at number one and then went on a little slide. And then we just hosted number one Texas in Fayetteville and swept them. In fact, it wasn't even really competitive. So maybe we're getting our groove back a little bit, but we'll see. Go on the road to LSU this weekend.

And that's a big one.

Yeah. Yeah. So still still in the national seed hunt. So should be should be pretty good shape.

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But yeah. So what was the timing of the tie in to meeting Phil Robertson? And was that pre-television show? Because, I mean, in my age, I go back to those videos that they did, those Duckman videos before anybody else was really doing them. There were very few. So they had a kind of a cult following with that, with old VHS tapes and DVDs and stuff. And then, of course, the TV show blew up. So, what was the timing of when your connection to Rig'Em Right and their endorsement and kind of where that took off?

Yeah, that was definitely pre-Duck Dynasty. That was back when they were just doing the DVDs and Duckman 1 and 2 and all that stuff, which we watched every single three times a weekend down at a hunting camp. And we still quote a lot of those one-liners from, I guess it's Duckman 2, Run and Gun, where they wake up in the blind and got a red dog and all those guys in there. Yeah, so that was back in just the DVD days, you know? But to your point, they had a huge cult following. I mean, there'd be a line a mile long getting their picture with them and autographs and stuff. So it was fun, a lot of fun back then.

So you started with the rigging, and I'll go ahead here and thank you and everyone else for that, working with braided string and spark plugs as anchors gets really old. Golly, we threw so many decoys when I was a kid. That was the worst thing every year, was picking them all up, wrapping the strings around the head and then praying to God they didn't get tangled by the time you put them out again the next year. It was a pain. So we've come a long way. So from there, what did you branch out into next? What was after the rigging, what you set your sights on?

So yeah, we did the rigging, the pre-rig weights and then the jerk rig. Those were our first three products. We had two sizes of the pre-rig decoy anchors and then the jerk rig. And funny story on the jerk rig is I made, of course, everything I did was made by hand at first. But so my first customer was a local shop here in Eastern North Carolina, new sporting goods. They're great store, still a great store. And then I was like, they were selling the heck out of them. And then I said, well, shoot, man, I'm gonna see what Max thinks about them. You know, that'd be some validation because Max, you know, the authority in waterfowl products. And so went down to Max and they loved it and ordered them. And I said, well, shoot, might as well go ahead and see what Cabela's will think of them. I went to Phil Robertson, made a phone call up there and said, hey, you need to see this guy. He's got a really good product. And sure enough, I got a meeting and I took off to Sydney, Nebraska with a homemade jerk rig that I literally had a, the anchor I got from West Marine, a string winder. I don't even know where I got that from. I think it was from something at Bass Pro. And then some string and a bungee cord, you know, I got from somewhere locally. I got a makeup kit for the bag that it carries, the carrier. And it fit perfectly in this bag. And then I used a clam shell packaging from another product and just like carefully took it out and then stapled it back together to look like I had this buttoned up product. And walked into Cabela's, showed them the stuff. They said, this is great. How many, you know, when can you have them here? And I said, well, how many do you need? And when do you need them? And they gave me the thing. And I was like, you got it, buddy. And walked out of there terrified.

I was like, I was going to ask if you were nervous.

I called my wife. She's like, how'd it go? And I was like, it went great. But I have no idea. I just wrote a check that my ass can't catch. So we got to figure something out real quick. So yeah, I went in there with the jerk rig that I had no idea really what it cost or, you know, how to make them all or anything like that. So, but we scrambled and got it done. But yeah, pretty, pretty wild. So that was the first of it was just those couple of rigging stuff. And then we just expanded more size options, more weight options on the rigging. And, and then I was like, you know, these are great, but you know, one of the pushback we were getting from some people, just because of the way they hunt, some people don't want to decoy back with them. You know, you just, you keep them clipped to your permanent blind and you drag them out in the water, put them out. I mean, we all know how easy that is. But then some people, you know, in a boat or, you know, going in on a quad or something, this is probably pre, you know, days when they had the fancy, you know, quad beds and stuff where you could bolt everything to it. So I decided to design a decoy bag that would work with the anchors. And that's where we came up with our Tanker XL bag with the big wide-mouth opening where you just, you know, drop them straight in and buckle it closed. And that was kind of the introduction into the soft goods. And from there, it was just, you know, more cut and sew stuff, bags, blind bags, gun cases, and, you know, decoy bags, different slotted bags and stuff like that. And, I mean, really, we were off to the races at that point. It was just a matter of continuing to feed the machine. And it's no bald ever since.

Yeah, yeah, I'd say so. Well, I've got a crazy decoy rigging story that when you started talking about all that and kind of tinkering and playing with different stuff to get it like you like it and then taking that product to stores. I don't think this one you're going to ever take to a store or you're going to steal this idea. But I've hunted with a guy here in Arkansas. He's a doctor, orthopedic surgeon in Pine Bluff, Arkansas, which is, I don't know, south of Little Rock, about 45 minutes. But he hunts at a famous club on the Grand Prairie. And he uses the twine, the old braided cord that we all used back in the day. But for weights, he uses body parts, metal body parts that he either puts in somebody or took out of somebody.

Oh, wow.

So it's like, he uses like a femur, like an artificial femur, artificial knee caps, all these crazy devices. So when you throw the decoys out in your morning, you're like, what in the hell is this? And it's all these parts that he's used to either in surgery or it's an outdated part that they've replaced. And so he's got all this stuff laying around and he uses all that to weigh his decoys down.

That is awesome. Yeah.

So a little bit of ingenuity. Now, it was pretty bizarre, but at the same time, that's kind of interesting. Well, never would have expected that.

Well, as funny as the guy that I was referencing earlier, whose dad was a big time duck hunter, he kind of got me into duck hunting. He was my best friend when we were five and he's my best friend today. He's an orthopedic surgeon. So I need to tell him that, you know, to start saving some of those parts so we can use them for decoy anchors.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I don't think you're going to see that replicated too often around the country. There's probably somebody else doing it or something that just is kind of bizarre. But that was an original one. Yeah. And kind of piggybacking off the originality and get more like into the products that you're producing. How in this industry, how do you stay original? And how do you, because there's a lot of copycat stuff out there. We see it with certain brands are really good at it. I don't have to or need to name names, but there are some brands that it's like somebody else comes up with something cool. They do it really similar, probably cheaper. But how in a competitive business, because there's tons of different decoys, there's tons of different rigging options. There's tons of bags, tons of gun cases. How much effort are you involved there in trying to be somewhat original in a copycat business for a lot of people?

Yeah, I mean, it's tough. I mean, for sure, there's, you know, you get to a place where, you know, how much more gadgets do you need for duck hunting? And, you know, where are the holes in the gear where, you know, that you can plug with a new product? I mean, what are people missing? You know, what's gonna make life easier when you go out in the field? And, you know, obviously constantly thinking about, oh, wow, this would be a good product. But, you know, we're pretty saturated. I mean, we've got, you know, I mean, everything you need for duck hunting. Now we're doing decoys. And so we're, you know, we got that cooking too. But so coming up with something like completely original or, you know, like our decoy anchors, I mean, they were nobody was doing that, you know, at least commercially, you know, they were new. They changed the game. You can't hardly open a hunting magazine and not see an ad from anybody, any brand in the industry where they're not dragging decoys behind them on, you know, Texas rigs. And, you know, we were the first ones that did that. So it's tough. I mean, we try, you know, one branding. I mean, you know, we just try to take care of our customer and be a brand that people want to be affiliated with because we have good products and we're die hard and we speak the language and we're there. We're present. We're at shows and engaging with the consumer. And, you know, we're trying to, you know, rig them right products. We play in the premium side. You know, we don't do a lot of the cheaper 1999, you know, blind bags. We try to make it last and they're a little more expensive. And that just found that that's our niche. You know, could we sell more if we did the rest? Yeah, but it wouldn't be Rig-Em-Right, you know. We try to design everything to be as bulletproof as it can be for a duck hunter. I mean, the bottom line is, as y'all know, I mean, it's hard on gear. Wet, dry, mud, sticks, dogs. I mean, in and out of the boat, there's sharp edges on everything. I mean, it's tough. It's hard on gear. But we try to do our level best to make it as durable as possible at a price that people can afford. I mean, there are people, we get people that complain, something didn't last and this, that, and the other. And it crushes me when we get those emails. My wife does all of our customer service, so she fills all those emails. And it is home when a customer is ticked off. I mean, you're talking to one of the owners, the wife of the owner, when you send an email to Rig'Em Right. And when we leave work, we get home, go throw a ball for the dog, talk about work, and she's telling me all this stuff and it bothers us. We don't want that. We want our customers to have success with our product and it hurts when something lets somebody down. So, we try our best to prevent that because that's just what we do. And I think a lot of people, some competitors, maybe just don't carry that home as much. Maybe they have employees doing customer service that punch in and punch out, and they don't bring that home with them, but we bring it home and it bothers us. So, yeah, I mean, we just try our best to make good quality stuff and try to stay innovative where we can. And we know people have copied some of our stuff. I mean, I get it, it happens, but there's nothing you can do about it. And we just, you know, interesting story. We had our tanker decoy bag that I was telling you, our first decoy bag we came out with that goes with the anchors. We had one year where the factory screwed up and the way they attached the carry handles on the side of the bag was wrong. And we had some quality control issues with those till we were able to catch it and get it corrected. Well, the next year or sometime thereafter, we noticed a competitor had our exact same bag. And when they copied it, they actually copied the wrong one. That one had problems. And I saw it and I was like, bye, you messed up. You copied one of our rechecks.

Wow.

Anyway, hopefully they all fell apart.

Oh, man. You know, Brent and I talk a lot about it here on the show. I think, you know, who you are and the character of who you are and your brand, whatever it is, you know, be it if you're producing goods like you guys are, or you're an author, or you're in a guide business like I am, you know, all that matters. And that's one of the first things I noticed about you and your wife. You know, you look at Rig'Em Right and it's, you know, this apparent big company, and then you find out that it's you guys running it. And it's that personal touch, I think, that separates, separates y'all. And I know that you care. You and I have had conversations about stewardship and our roles in this industry, and I think that comes through with your brand. And I think it matters. I think even, you know, you look at, you look at Sitka, they don't, they don't partner and license stuff with a lot of people, but they do with you guys. So I think that speaks volumes and your stories here do as well for what you guys are doing there.

Well, I appreciate that. It's, it's, it's nice that people notice and, yeah, I mean, it's interesting to be at, you know, a store event or a trade show and have people come up and ask me about a product. And, you know, I'm chit chat and telling them, you know, this bag versus that bag and where do you hunt and how do you like to do, you know, you hunt by boat, do you walk in, blah, blah, blah, asking questions. And they're like, so what do you do for Rig'Em Right? I was like, everything from boardrooms to bathrooms, buddy. We do it all. And he's like, whoa, you're the owner? I'm like, yeah, you know, started it, own it. And they're usually pretty shocked that I'm still out there, you know, me and the wife out there, slinging decoys on the ground and showing people how the decoy anchors work and the jerk rig and, you know, but I mean, I like to be out there. I mean, it's nice to hear, you know, people talk good about your stuff. It's, man, it means a lot when you're at a trade show and somebody walks up with a Rig-Em-Right hat on and, you know, I love your product. I, you know, I use this product and that product. I mean, man, that keeps us fired up. And, you know, that's the fun part about what we do because it can be a grind, you know, just like any business when you're stuck in the office in the warehouse and you're not out with people using your stuff and enjoying it. So it's nice to get out with the people and, you know, hear some of the good feedback.

No, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that that has to be energizing. Just like when something doesn't go right for somebody, you want to fix it, that can drag it down a little bit. But, you know, if you make it right, then you're back on the upswing again. And kind of circle back to Cason's point on, you know, how brands carry themselves. I think that's a separator, because I'm not saying there's brands out there doing it wrong. I think there's some that could do a better job of what the sport of duck hunting is really about and how that's presented to those that can be influenced. And we know there's demographics and ages and experience levels and things that are impressionable by what they see in the sport. And a lot of that is by brands and a lot of that is obviously through social media. So I think, yeah, how brands carry themselves. If you're wanting a long-term customer, that's going to matter quite a bit. I mean, I'm not in the business by any means, but yeah, I would think that would be a pretty big deal. You've heard us talk about Tom Beckbe and their classic hunting gear in fall and winter. Now that warmer weather is here, Tom Beckbe is rolling out a full line of lightweight shirts, shorts, and travel gear. Check them out at tombeckbe.com or any of their four stores in Birmingham, Oxford, Mississippi, Middleburg, Virginia, and Tuscaloosa. But let's kind of circle back to, you brought it up a couple of times, now you're in the decoy game. You're kind of a late comer. There's lots of brands out there. What kind of led to Rig'Em Right going with a decoy and producing that and kind of where that business, you see that business going?

Yeah, I mean, it's been a long time coming. You know, people are like, you meet a stranger or meet someone somewhere and they say, what do you do? Are we on a hunting products company? Oh, really? What do you mean hunting products? Waterfowl hunting. They're like, oh, you make decoys. Right now, we don't make decoys. Oh, calls. No, we don't make calls. Well, what do you make? You know, what else is there? And but it's forever people just assume that we did decoys. And we always knew we would at some point, just kind of waiting for the time to be right. And, you know, we started working on it. And, you know, we just made, you know, what I think is a really good decoy. I wanted something super lightweight, something that worked really good with our rigs. There, you know, our decoys are maybe a little more slender, they're not skinny by any means, but more slender than, say, some of the other ones out there, and they're just more user-friendly when you're hanging them on a carabiner. You know, the big round decoy just creates this giant bundle that you gotta deal with, you know? And so, and, you know, we used a real light EVA plastic, great paint adhesion, but we're not doing a ton of different poses and all that stuff. I mean, my goal was to make a good hunter-friendly decoy. And, you know, everybody's, the whole thing is, is, you know, you gotta sell the consumer first and not the duck. I mean, I just don't, I mean, I just don't think the duck is gonna care if you got three hens looking to the left and three looking to the right and, you know, one with their head just a little lower and, you know, I mean, they're that close.

If they do, it's too late. If they do that, it's too late.

Right. I mean, and, you know, you got some looking to the left and some to the right, but then, you know, they're facing different directions in the spread, which they should be anyway. I mean, and I just see a lot of stuff that I think is just kind of silly and not important. And, you know, what does it take to kill ducks? And that's what we're doing. You know, a couple of postures. I mean, our, you know, widget we got coming out, we've got one drink, one hit. I mean, no different postures or anything like that. The decoys are moving around. You got a jerk rig, you got some water motion. I mean, that's, you're gonna kill ducks. And so taking a little bit more of a simplistic approach, but making a really good decoy and, you know, a good high quality and, yeah, it was just kind of time for us to kind of do it. You know, we've got the brand awareness and stuff is just trying to sell more stuff to our customers.

Well, yeah. And then now you launched that seemingly great success. And I mean, I commend that approach. You see a lot of just over, I don't want to say dramatized, but I'm with you. Most of them, and that's my response. Most of the time people are like, well, what about this or that? Man, if that's the difference, we're already in trouble. We should already be shooting ducks. If that pose or this ratio of hens to drakes, like that stuff's not important. So I commend that approach. So now we fast forward to 2025 and there is so much uncertainty in terms of tariffs and what we're going to be looking at. Even on the ag side, you know, commodity prices are going to be all over the place. Inputs are crazy. So what does this, you know, what does this mean for you guys? I know you don't know, but you're concerned about it. Obviously, we talked a little bit about it. So walk us through what's going on for y'all right now.

Yeah, it is. There's no other way to put it, but it is, it's rough. It's a very stressful, very difficult situation. I mean, Rig'Em Right is going to be in good shape. Not all of our stuff is produced in China. That's the real killer right now. But the reality is, most of the people in the waterfowl space, their product is made in China. And unless something changes soon, I mean, there's going to be people in some companies and some really bad places. I mean, I'm talking in danger of losing their company. I mean, the tariff rate right now on some of our rigging stuff is 170%. So overnight, your cost goes up 170% on your product. So pack a 54-inch decoy anchors. That was $39.99 last year. If we want to make any money, which if you're in business, you have to make money, I mean, anything, or just break even, and then offer some margin for our retailers, because they got to keep their doors open, 70 bucks at retail, 70 bucks. Who's going to pay 70 bucks for 12 decoy anchors? And then your decoys, if anybody even imports them right now, because most of the decoy are competitors who I talk to. I mean, we're all in the same boat together. Luckily for us, we're new to the decoy market. If we don't have decoys this year, it doesn't change anything for Rig'Em Right. We want it. I mean, it's growth opportunity, and we sold them great last year, and sales are great this year, but you're talking about a six pack of mallards, going rate for a high-end six pack of mallards from Avian or Dakota was $99, $100 last year to make the same profit, which decoys are thin margins. I mean, it's not great money in decoys. $230 for six. Who's going to pay that? And then $70 for the weight to go with them? I mean, that's how bad it is. So people are not even, I mean, it's pointless to even import your product. The shelves are going to be completely empty. And what is there if somebody has the cajon ace enough to bring it in and sell it for nothing, is going to be crazy expensive. It would be double what it was. So it's tough, man. It's tough. And, you know, the elephant in the room is China. And we're all, you know, country boys, red-blooded hunters. I mean, salt of the earth outdoorsmen. And but the reality is 70, 80 years worth of trade practices, China has become the place to make some of this small consumer good stuff. And, you know, Trump, he's trying to change it overnight. And it's just, it's going to put a lot of companies out of business. I mean, and that's just the sad truth and prices are going to go up. I think we import 478 billion dollars worth of goods from China. And that's that cost. So at retail, you're talking double to triple that. So you're in the $1.2 trillion at retail, that you're going to just triple the price, double the price. I mean, it's pretty wild right now. So it's very, I'm up all night for the last couple of weeks, talking to our factories. And look, there ain't nobody in the world, I've been to China 42 times since I started Rig'Em Right, 42 times. I spent well over a year of my life over there. There ain't nobody that would rather be made right here in America than this guy. But there's nobody to make it. And, you know, I keep telling people when they're like, well, we need to make the stuff here. I'm like, that's great. Who's going to make it? Right. We're at 4.2% unemployment, which is basically full employment in the US. Full employment, because, you know, certain, a large percent of the population can't work or they're retired. And so you take all those people out and there's just, you know, and then a certain percentage of the population that won't work, period. I mean, we know that that's a real thing. So who's going to make it? If we did have it here, we can't, I mean, you can't hire people to work at Dick's in an air conditioned, clean, nice, beautiful store. They can't, I mean, they're short handed as they can be everywhere. We can't get people to come work here in our warehouse for 20 bucks an hour, 40 hours a week, benefits, matching 401k, health insurance. I mean, there's not enough human beings in America to make all that stuff. China has a billion more people than we do. There are 1.4 billion people that live there. They got lots of people that can make this stuff, and we just don't have those people. And so, I mean, just being completely pragmatic, like, okay, great, let's move it all here, but who is going to make it? There's not enough people in our country to do it. So, yeah, I mean, it's, I think, you know, matters of national security, automotive, steel, shipbuilding, chips, pharmaceuticals, tech, stuff like that, absolutely, that must be made in the US. But toys and decoys and trinkets and spatulas and toaster ovens and, I mean, I don't know, I don't, that's just where I'm at with it. Like, why not, I mean, Americans have great job. I mean, think about this, we're at 4.2% unemployment without people having to sit and pour lead weights because they're doing better stuff. They're marketing, they're distributing, they're accounting and they're working at companies like Rig Em Right and Avery and Bandit and Drake. I mean, they employing lots of people doing really cool stuff. And everybody's employee doing a whole lot better work than some of that. I don't know, that's just my two cents. And I'm sorry to just be, show up and throw up, but I've met with our senator, our congressman yesterday, actually congressman, or his deputy chief of staff, but and his senior policy advisor. But so I have been talking about this with industry colleagues and people for weeks now. So it's interesting though, it's challenging times.

Well, you know, I think that's the real elephant in the room is, you know, minimum wage in the American workforce. And I don't want to get too political or, you know, offend anybody, God forbid. But you know, when you put in a price floor like minimum wage, you phase out certain jobs and people are not, either it costs too much to pay that person for that particular job or nobody wants to actually do that job. And it just, it is what it is to use that term. But you hear a lot of people that want to buy American, you know, build it here. I'd rather buy American. I'll pay some more. I often find that the people that are really committed to buying American kind of want to buy one product for life. Like they want to buy one coat that lasts them forever. And that's great. And I commend that approach and brands that are able to build that. But that doesn't do you any good if you sell a dozen decoys to one person and never buy decoys again. You're in the business of selling products. You want to provide good products, but you need a customer base that's going to buy those. So I think that's kind of the tough spot that we're in, where everyone wants to bring production back to the States. That's a great concept. In some areas, it's applicable, but in some areas, it's just not.

It's just not, yeah. I love when somebody e-mails. Like I said, my wife gets to e-mails, and this happens all the time. And somebody will send an e-mail, and it'll say, are your products made in America or made in China? Because I only buy American products sent from my iPhone. You know, e-mails sent from my iPhone.

I'm like, yeah.

Well, buddy, guess where your iPhone is made? And guess where your flat-screen TV is made? And, you know, there's... And so, anyway, it's just funny. I mean, and I've heard people say, look, you know, the fact that things are made in other countries, you know, affords Americans a lifestyle that they would not otherwise have. Like you sit in your living room, you know, I mean, we, you know, you got a nice house, you got a nice TV, you got a nice stereo system, you got a nice phone, an iPad. Most of the stuff in your house is made overseas and it's affordable. Like you live a very comfortable life and you got a much better job than maybe the person that's making some of that stuff. But like if, just imagine all of that stuff tripled in price, which is what would happen, you would have way less. But you're able to live a pretty good quality of life because things are more affordable. And it's just like, we all know with commodities, things are cheaper when you live closer to a commodity, or you have access to the commodity. And the commodity, particularly in China, are people, willing people that are willing to work and do some of these jobs. And that, frankly, Americans just wouldn't do. And if you could find the people to do it, would be three times more expensive. And frankly, I mean, people go, yeah, but the quality, I mean, yeah, there's some American-made products that are great quality. But even all the Chinese quality stuff, an American is behind, you know, American company is behind it. You know, like people say, oh, cheap Chinese product. Well, it's probably cheap, because that's the way the American company wanted it, because they wanted it to be, you know, last of season or to be inexpensive. They didn't specify that it needs to be, I mean, if I'm not mistaken, Sitka Waiters are made in China, and they're really, really nice. And your iPhone is really, really nice. I mean, it comes down to what you specify you want it to be based on quality. I mean, Gucci handbags are made in China. Pretty nice, I guess. I don't, I'm never bold. But like, you know, it doesn't all have to be cheap. It's just intentionally some items are made that way, and then some items are made to be really nice. So I'd love for everything to be made in America. I mean, you know, and being from North Carolina, I mean, the furniture industry, you know, this was the place. I mean, this was the furniture capital of the US and that industry's dried up. I mean, it's all overseas now. Yeah. So, you know, I have mixed feelings about it, but like I said, I'd love for it to be made here, but it's not going to happen overnight. And unfortunately, I think some of the companies aren't going to be around long enough to move it to America, unless something changes here pretty quick on some of this terror stuff, because it's crippling to a lot of companies.

Yeah.

And again, I mean, the sentiment among those people are, you know, they don't necessarily disagree with the end game of all this, but the approach is going to be real difficult. So, anyway.

Baha'u 120 is located in Woodruff County, Arkansas, just southwest of Wyble. The property offers great waterfowl hunting with habitat that ranges from fields to overflow green timber. The hunting is only strengthened by the property being located just east of the Cache River and bordering the Cache River National Wildlife Refuge. To learn more, contact Gartner Lyle of Lile Real Estate or Dustin Roddy of Cache River Farms. Yeah, I think there's got to be some balance, just like you said, where it's feasible to produce a product here. Go for it. All about it. But where it's not, you got to look at different avenues. Because you're right, there's a ceiling to how much somebody's going to pay for X product and all that. But I have two questions off of this piece. One is, do you ever combine, or does the industry, do you have a lobbyist? Does somebody go and represent all of the outdoor manufacturing companies? Or do you do almost like, the retailers have a buying group, like Max is in the same buying group as Rogers, and Fort Thompson here in North Little Rock. So you got some buying groups on the retail side. Is there anything like that on the manufacturing side? Then the second question is, how easy would it be to pick up and move what you do in China to Vietnam, or another country where the tariffs are lower? They do manufacturing. They possibly have a plant. How hard or easy is that to even try to tackle?

So yeah, those are excellent questions. And actually, I can answer both of them with one answer. And that is, so there is no collective lobby among all the hunting products, brands. I mean, maybe the National Shooting Sports Foundation or whatever, the one that's kind of put together, Shot Show. But there's no collective lobbying effort. But there is the collective lobbying effort of which Rig'Em Right is a part of. And we do have a lobbyist. And I've been to DC three times on lobbying events, meeting with, you know, congressmen, senators, and it is all trade related, particularly related to countries, not China. So I've been actively involved in that. And so that's good. And I've got tried, you know, I've tried to get some of my colleagues, two of which recently joined this coalition. You know, the problem is there was trade legislation that was in place, that was incentivized companies to get out of China, which we moved a large part of our production out of China. And then that legislation expired, and the Biden administration never renewed it. And that's just what we've been fighting for the last four years. That legislation has been in place since the 70s, and it's always renewed, and it just never got renewed under the Biden administration. And then now, you know, Trump comes in, and he raises the tariffs on Vietnam and everybody else. So it's like the incentive to leave was just taken away, and you're pretty much just getting punished for on both sides of the deal, you know. So yeah, I mean, it just compounds the issue. Some of those other countries do have the infrastructure and facilities that can make a lot of the stuff. It's more expensive than China. But yeah, I mean, we definitely lobby Washington for better trade agreements with other countries, and yeah, and I mean, I looked literally this morning, it's in the office at 730. And until we jumped on this call, I was on Google looking for US factories that can make a lot of our stuff, particularly on the rigging side. And I mean, and I do this every two or three years. And send them products, get a price, and it's just, I mean, it's just through the roof. I mean, it's just so expensive. I mean, even, you know, a decoy anchor, yeah, they can pour the lead weights, but having enough people to tie the rigs, you know, just, it's so simple. I mean, just a piece of fishing line and a weight and a couple of crimps and a swivel. But to make the volume that we make, I mean, you're talking 30, 40, 50,000 packs of these. I mean, it just takes a lot of people to do it. So, but I'm doing it again. I'm going down the thing and I'm gonna try to find somebody that can make some of this stuff. And I hope I can. I would love nothing more than that. But, you know, we also have to, we have to make a profit. I mean, that's the point of having a business, making money, and if we price ourselves out on the market with, you know, our decoy anchors are way too expensive, you're not gonna sell them. And if you lower the price, you're not gonna make any money. You close up shop and, you know, just, that's just the way it is. So it's tough.

So I've got kind of two questions. One just popped in my head. Have you ever, you see certain brands who build their entire brand out of, you know, this Made in America approach. Have you ever considered a product line that's a specific, you know, Made in the US product line?

We have. Yes, we have. We've looked at doing some of that and that might happen in the future. Little, you know, small batch assortment of some things. Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you know, give customers who are passionate about that an opportunity to use your brand and fill that niche for themselves as well. And then, I mean, to me, it would kind of, you know, may help justify some of the cost behind that when you know where it's made and why that cost is a little bit higher. So my other question, in regards to China, do you think if we do shift some production away from China and back stateside, would it cut down on some of these knockoffs that we see from so many different brands?

Um, I mean, I don't think so. I mean, they're going to, means if a brand wants to copy something, they're going to copy it, whether it's made here or somewhere else, you know.

Gotcha. Yeah, I didn't know.

There's some Chinese brand like this. There's a brand out there called Tide We. I don't know if you've seen them, mostly like on Amazon and stuff. I don't know for a fact, but I think that they're just, it's a 100% Chinese company that owns the brand, makes the product, and they've got some American stateside promoting it, but they are a 100% Chinese-owned company.

Yeah, I was just curious because like I hear stories, different brands or startups that go to a factory where somebody else's product is made, like I want that product like this, and they're getting it directly from the same factory, so I was curious if all that was stateside, if there'd be a little more honesty amongst thieves, I guess.

I mean, yeah, it's possible. Yeah, and for sure, I mean, I see that all the time. I mean, we get emails, solicitation emails, twice, three times a week from a factory, oh, here we make this, we make that, and take a look at our, we make for these brands, and here's a catalog or a picture of their showroom, and you see a Rig'Em Right product in their showroom, and they don't make our stuff. I mean, you know, that happens all the time. So, yeah, it's wild navigating over there, but yeah, I don't know, maybe you could cut down on some of that for sure.

That'd be interesting, kind of see how this all shakes out, and you know, you look at a sport that's got a lot going on, and this just kind of adds to it a little bit, and from the, you know, the product side, and the gear we all like to toad out there. So yeah, interesting side piece of this whole game of duck hunting.

Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't like to talk about that some of our products are made in China. I mean, nobody wants to talk about that. It's the elephant in the room, but the reality is every, I mean, going to a Bass Pro, Cabela's, Roger's, Mac, you go in, you know, any hunting store and look around, and the lion's share is made outside of the US. I mean, probably 90%. All your fish and stuff, I mean, maybe not guns and stuff. I mean, some guns are, but most of the guns are not made in China, but you know, your apparel, all that, you know, China, Vietnam, so much, I mean, it's just, everything is out of the country now. It just kind of is what it is. And kind of to my other point, you know, when you're a duck hunter, you need a lot of gear. I mean, I got buddies that would be like, man, I'm never duck hunting, I'm always deer hunting, but I'm thinking about getting into duck hunting. I'll say, don't. You got kids getting ready to go to college, don't do it. You're going to be so broke. It requires so much gear and you can accumulate it over time. But I mean, if you imagine all the stuff you have, if it costs two or three times more, I mean, punch that math in your calculator and see what your arsenal would look like if it was three times more expensive. Unfortunately, it is what it is. I mean, that ship sailed a long time ago and it's not going to change overnight. It will take years and you're talking, like I said earlier for us decoys, we're just getting into it. But you look at some of the other decoy brands with a complete extensive line of decoys from the floater geese, to full body geese, to every species of duck, everything. The amount of money that they have in carvings and tooling that's in a factory in China. I'm talking, I mean, you know, somebody like a whatever without saying brands, but we know who the ones are that have a complete decoy line. They've been at it forever. You're talking million dollars worth of tooling over there. Now, how are you going to get that? You just walk away from it and leave it and then spend another million dollars to open up all that tooling here in the US. I mean, it's a tough situation. It's a tough situation. I don't know the solution. That's for sure. We're just trying to make hunting stuff and help people kill more ducks.

I guess to kind of back up your point or maybe a counterpoint, you look at a particular iconic US made decoy brand that went out of business, relaunched, I guess is still in business, but I mean, struggled to be profitable with state side production. So it's tough.

It is tough. But yeah, I mean, that's the conversation I had yesterday with our congressional offices like me ask, how hard would it be to, is it feasible to relocate? And I said, I mean, it's probably not really feasible. I mean, it certainly ain't going to happen in short order. But when I've mentioned all the tooling, I said, we've got a couple of hundred thousand dollars worth of tooling over there. Luckily for us, decoy anchors and stuff, there's not a lot of tooling involved. You know, but layout line frames and dog blind frames and buckles for blind bags and you start adding up. Plus the decoy stuff. I mean, you're just going to walk away from all of that investment. I mean, a hundred thousand dollars is a lot of money to Rig'Em Right, a lot. You know, some other bigger companies might absorb that. But the bigger companies don't have a hundred thousand. They've got five hundred thousand to a million dollars worth of tooling. You know, mold for all these decoys. I mean, it's just. Can't just walk away from it. Or if you do, you're going to lose big time and then you're going to have to respend it. And frankly, you look at what tooling costs are in the US three times what it is in China. So if you've got a hundred thousand dollars worth of molds you're willing to walk away from, you reopen them in the US. It's going to be three hundred thousand dollars to open duck decoy molds. I mean, man, it's tough, y'all. It's crazy. It's a complex. It's a very complex issue, that's for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, fascinating discussion because we're on the outside looking in, obviously, and see this on the news. We know where products are made in the duck hunting world. It's pretty clear. I think most people are square away on that, but you don't realize just what all this is going to mean to that industry, and hopefully, something gets worked out, some common ground gets found, and some of this doesn't impact the products we like to buy that come from brands like yours, and doesn't get to a price point, nobody's going to be pulling the trigger on it. Because I mean, think about the downhill stream of that. You know, if Max and Bass Pro and Cabela's and whoever, Sportsman's, whatever store, if the products aren't selling, there's an impact to them. And then, you know, how does that trickle downhill? And it's not pretty. So hopefully, get some resolution.

Yeah, well, and something else, if I may clear up, because a lot of people just don't understand this, China doesn't pay the tariff. American companies pay the tariff, you know? Tariff is just a fancy word for tax. So every business in America, small businesses from little flower shops that import stuff to jewelry to whatever, when they bring in that product, they write a check to the government. And I probably shouldn't say this, but we have a container of decoy rigs, 40-foot shipping container. We get in multiple. But it got out before the big 145% tariff, which by the way is not 145, it's 145 on top of 25, on top of the original tariff, which was 8.9%. So you're up in the 170s on that stuff. $96,000 worth of product. And Rig'Em Right will have to write a check to the government, a tax slash tariff for almost $150,000. So that check doesn't get written from China to the US. That check gets written from Rig'Em Right and every other small business that imports product. So it's not China, despite what a lot of people think, you know, that has to pay this. So it's a, and it is a tax, it's more money going to the federal government. So that's the part, that's real hard to swallow.

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure. Well, man, we appreciate you coming on the show and talking through all this and, you know, getting the background on your company and kind of where you, where you've been, where you're headed, but also being a pretty open book on this, this whole terror situation, because we all, we all hear it on the news. But man, if you're not living in that world, you don't realize just how big an impact some of this is playing. So once again, thanks for thanks for coming on.

Absolutely, y'all. And I appreciate you having me.

Yeah, yeah, we'll do it again. All right. That's another episode in the books. If you enjoyed this episode like any of the others, please pass along to your friends that like this sport of duck hunting. And we'll bring some more guests on, talk about some of this insider stuff. And we'll catch you next time. Thanks.