The Standard Sportsman
Lifelong Arkansas waterfowlers Brent Birch and Cason Short discuss duck hunting's past, present, and future with various thought-provoking leaders in the duck-hunting community. The guys will discuss days afield, waterfowl conservation, and stewardship with the goal of leaving the sport of duck and goose hunting better than they found it.
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The Standard Sportsman
SPECIAL EDITION: Drain Tile Setbacks and Why Duck Hunters Need to Act Now
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Drain tile setbacks on wetland easements help protect the small wetlands breeding ducks depend on by keeping underground drainage systems farther away. Reducing those setbacks could dry out more wetlands across the Prairie Pothole Region, leaving ducks with fewer places to pair, nest, and raise broods. The USFWS is seeking public input on potentially reducing these setbacks, a red alert for those who care about waterfowl. Ducks Unlimited's Scott Stephens and Mike Brasher join the show to break down why a seemingly technical drainage rule could ultimately mean fewer ducks in the fall flight and how duck hunter/conservationists can act now.
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Welcome to the Standard Sportsman Podcast, where duck and goose hunting's hottest topics meet a mission to leave the resource better than we found it. Lifelong Arkansas hunter conservationist Kasten Shork and Brent Burch bring you thought-provoking conversations with insightful guests before, during, and after the season. Glad you're here. Let's get into it.
SPEAKER_04Hey, it's Brent Kasten back with another edition of the Standard Sportsman Podcast. And we've been talking about a few hot button issues here lately. That's what you get in the middle of the summertime. It's making people aware of things that are going on that uh may not be high on their radar because duck season's not high on their radar, even though that's that's growing. But we've got a really hot topic today that um could have some real serious consequences for waterfowl, which in turn uh affects our duck hunting. So uh case, I'm gonna kick it to you and we're gonna get rolling on this.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, this uh, I don't know, you may call it a special uh edition today. This kind of fell in my lap Friday evening late. Uh Mike Brazier texts me asking if I was aware of it. It was on my radar, and and I was not. Uh it has been ever since because I think a lot of people are talking about it. So, Mike, uh, we're joined with Mike Brazier and Scott Stevens today, both from Ducks Unlimited, to try to get to kind of what's going on with U.S. Fish and Wildlife and some of these setbacks that we're talking. We've seen a lot about it over the weekend, but not a lot of information out just yet. So, guys, welcome to the show. We're going to turn it over to you. I'm sure Brent and I'll have a ton of questions because I know very little about it, but I feel like we need to know more. This is definitely an important issue.
SPEAKER_01Uh Kasen, thank you so much for the for the invitation. Brent, and uh yeah, appreciate you guys giving us the platform to talk about this. I'll let Scott do an introduction of himself too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, I appreciate the chance to to visit with you guys. I I think you are on target. This is important stuff. It is a bit nuanced, but has big implications for the future of waterfowl production and healthy waterfowl populations across the continent.
SPEAKER_01So uh, you know, Casey, you you mentioned that I sent you a text Friday night. This this uh it's a request for information that was published in the Federal Register, published by the um by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. And I'll be honest, I don't have a lot of experience with the request for information. Most of the times when I'm I'm involved or making a comment on something, it's a proposed rule or something of that nature. Uh this is a little bit different. It's a request for information on a very important aspect of how the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service provides guidance on you know, sort of protections for wetlands that are in permanent conservation easements up on the prairies. And so as Scott uh and and I go through this, we'll provide we'll provide clarity on what is being asked, what people who care about ducks and duck habitat in the prairies and duck hunting all up and down the uh the flyways, if you care about that, you're gonna want to be aware of this, you're gonna want to engage, you're gonna want to have your your voice heard. The bottom line is, and we'll we'll get we'll eventually peel out all the details here, but the bottom line, most important thing for folks to know, is that you need to indicate to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that you support the current guidelines that are used for uh determining drain tile setbacks around these uh prairie, these permanent wetlands, these wetlands that have these permanent conservation easements on them. Um, and so what I want to do is turn this over to Scott here to explain that a little bit. I said you need to express to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that you support the current method. There's a 2024 rule that codified how to do all these drain tile set setbacks to ensure that we preserve the wetland values of these wetlands up on the prairies. But I want to ask Scott to kind of give a little bit more clarity to that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, maybe I'd start with the fact that the history of the Fish and Wildlife Service purchasing these, these are perpetual conservation easements. So voluntary agreements between landowners in the prairie potal region and the Fish and Wildlife Service to they're they're what's called minimally restrictive easements. So many times you guys are familiar with conservation easements that may limit development and a whole bunch of things. These limit a pretty specific series of things. In in the case that we're talking about, these are easements on wetlands that are typically in cropland. They prohibit the draining, burning, filling. And I'm trying to think if I got leveling. Leveling, there we go, and leveling of the wetland. So really the intent is to protect the function of the wetland to serve as habitat for breeding ducks. And so those started in the late 60s. Um and you know, there they identify the easements that are protected. And more recently, as the agricultural landscape has changed, there has been more installation of drainage tile across these areas, which you know looks to remove subsurface water to improve the yield on the crop, but if not done properly, can also impact how much water is in those wetlands. So the rule that the service is requesting information on um really involves it involves a bunch of gory details. Um and I'm not a hydrologist by training, but there's like a hydrologic uh equation in there. But basically what they're trying to do is make sure that if drain tile is installed in the surrounding cropland, that it's not starving the wetlands of subsurface runoff and so that the wetland continues to function and hold as much water as it would if there weren't tile in in that upland area.
SPEAKER_02So, okay, I'm gonna ask maybe a stupid question here. Um, and it may get it, I don't want to say the intent of some of this, but as a farmer, I understand if I can't get in there and and work it, I can't farm it, you know. And it's hard to find a lot of farmers that want to juggle both things, habitat and production. So I definitely can see their side of it, and I don't want to cast anyone in the bad light. So I'm gonna get to my question. Yep. If these wetlands dry up, with the easement in place, are they prohibited from ever farming it, or is there a method in which they can go in and farm it then if it's dry?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, really good question, Casey. These these easements allow the farming of the wetlands when they go dry or if they go dry. So the specifics of this rule that they're asking for information on, kind of perspective on, is just around um those setbacks and deciding how far from the wetland do you have to be away before you can install the drainage tile. And, you know, the the current rule is set up so that so that to, you know, using the best science that we have on the hydrology, they're set up to say, okay, here's here's the minimum distance that you can be from the wetland and install tile and not impact the function of the wetland. So you're exactly right. These these wetland basins, many of them are shallow and go dry in many years. Some of a lot of them have been dry for the past several years. And the landowners are allowed to cultivate and farm through those. So this discussion and request for information is specifically focused on this rule around tile setbacks.
SPEAKER_01Case, and one thing that we might uh might do is explain what drain tile uh is. I was talking to one uh person earlier today, and they're like, remind me, like what are we talking about when you say drain tile? It's essentially these, what is it, four to six inch? What's standard up there, Scott? It's gonna be six inch, like six inch black corrugated.
SPEAKER_03It used to be four, a lot of them are now six inch, yeah. Okay, corrugated PVC type pipe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um that that are perforated and that are buried into the that are dug and buried into the soil. What's the average depth on these things?
SPEAKER_03Could could be up to a meter deep. Um, and and actually that's part of the detail here. The depth relative to the depth of the wetland also matters in how far it has to be set back. So there's there's a bunch of details here. But yeah, these are put in place to help remove excess moisture from the subsurface soil. Um and you know, in instead of traditionally drainage in that part of the world would have happened through a surface ditch with the advent of tile. Now water is removed, but instead of running through a surface ditch, it runs out this tile and out the end of a pipe.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, would it be a bad analogy to kind of reference it to someone's landscape uh drainage? You know, if you've got uh French drain or a pop-up drain or somewhere in your yard that's taking water from a low spot and running it, you know, somewhere else. That's kind of what we're looking at.
SPEAKER_03That's that's kind of the same kind of thing. Yep, that's right.
SPEAKER_02And I I would encourage anybody, uh, if you're not familiar with it, that you can see it on social media. There's videos out there of this stuff getting installed, the the rippers that they use to open this up and lay it pretty quick. It's uh if you care about the PPR and you watch those videos, it uh it hurts a little to see that stuff going on. And again, as a farmer, you know, I don't fault anyone for being involved in production ag and trying to make a living doing that. But uh from a conservationist standpoint, it's it's painful to watch some of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that that's totally right, Casey. You know, I worked in Ohio for a little while and and drain tile installation has been widespread in the Midwest for for quite a period of time. And if you can even get on Google Earth and get into some of those agricultural areas in the Midwest and probably even in the prairies now, and if you if the imagery is taken at the right time, you can actually see the drain tile lines because there is a difference in moisture between where that tile is and then or where that yeah, that that drain tile is and then the distance out as you go out from it, it gets a little bit lighter. But you can see how much tile is laid across some of those landscapes. And so naturally, as that drain tile installation practice sort of expanded into the prairies, you very quickly got into this issue of, oh boy, if we install these things um and you know, too close or too deep relative to some of these wetlands, you can have some very you know dire consequences on that wetland's ability to hold water. And as Scott said, therefore, you you would change or or reduce its ability to function as a wetland. And in our case, that means its ability to function as a duck habitat. So thus thus uh sort of became this need for uh for farmers to seek guidance from the Fish and Wildlife Service on what can I do, you know, to stay within the the legal bounds of the agreement that I signed. And so that's that process that was uh that was sort of an uh that the gory details that Scott talked about that would had been had been in place, landowners interested in figuring out and getting clearance on where they can install their drain tile, how deep they can install their drain tile. Um that was sort of an internal document, an internal process that provided that guidance in 2024, they codified that guidance. And Scott, do you want to talk about what you know the importance of that, what it gives to the landowner in terms of the safe harbor and and so you know, the the good aspects of it based on science, safe harbor to the landowner if they follow it, individualized, all those types of things.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, and I would just go back even a little bit further, Mike. You're right. The final rule was published and approved in 2024, but interim guidance and work began on that. Like I have a memo from February of 2020, where the service was working on this, you know, they were developing these rules. So so this isn't something that that just popped up, you know, it takes a while to work through the process with the federal government, but but you know, this this dates back a while. They were working on this guidance. But to your point, Mike, really what it does is this says if you hold, you know, if your property is has a uh wetland easement on it, um, which, you know, that those those aren't all the acres across the PPR, it's about 1.7 million acres. Um, you know, but if you're a landowner who has a wetland easement on there and you're interested in installing drain tile, if you come to the Fish and Wildlife Service, have them do these calculations, and then they provide a map of, you know, here's the boundaries, here's where you can install tile, here's where you have to avoid installing tile. If you do that, you're sort of held harmless for any potential impacts that may show up down the road. If you follow their rules, you're you're good. You know, you're sort of grandfathered in, provides them clarity on, you know, that this is what you need to do, and and sort of transparency as to, you know, these are the requirements to fulfill the obligations that that you made when you signed that wetland easement. So it it does a lot of the things that we think about good policy being, you know, it it provides that that uh certainty and a process for them to follow that they won't be called out later to say, oh, you know, there was a little impact. It's like, nope, if you follow these rules, you're good.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. I I think from a clarification standpoint, I think it it would be important to talk about two things. We're just talking about the US side of the border. That's right. You know, the the PPR, you know, includes both sides, but this particular deal that's going on is just in the United States. Uh, tiling has gone uh crazy north of the border too, uh, you know, from a from an implementation standpoint. Uh we see the you know videos, if you follow any of it online. I've got a uh buddy down here that's a rice farmer that that follows Saskatchewan farming closer than anybody I've ever seen. But uh since you know these videos of these 90, 120 foot wide air seeders going right through uh a former wetland that that obviously it's pretty obvious to me it had been tiled and and it just sucks the water right off there and and they can drive these huge pieces of equipment. And there's no grass. I mean, it's all the things that could go wrong for a duck. But but can you speak to or do you have any numbers off the top of your head? Uh you know, just how um more popular the the implementation of tiling has become because I, you know, a handful of years ago you didn't hear anything about it, and now every state in the uh in the you know in the uh breeding grounds of the United States, it's it's going rampant.
SPEAKER_03Um yeah, what what I would say, Brent, is this this transition and the increase in tile has really been tied to the types of crops that are viable and planted up there. You know, like when when I moved to North Dakota, that was about 2003. Um, you know, the primary crops were like wheat, barley, um, those kind of things. There wasn't much corn then. And I remember I left there in uh 2010. And I remember the first time I was driving down a gravel road in North Dakota. First time I came to an intersection, and on our all four corners of that intersection, there was corn planted where you couldn't see if anybody was coming anymore. And it's like, ooh, that's different. So it was with corn and soybeans, those higher value crops, that the tile is more important because those are less tolerant of you know having their roots wet. So as we've seen, you know, the changes in varieties and those have pushed into the US prairies, and and you're right, they're starting to push into the Canadian prairies now. But the popularity of tile is is really tied to those crop types. So that's part of the transition that we've seen. So I would say, you know, as we saw corn come in, that was probably the late 2000s, you know, seven through 10. And then it was really increasing after that. That's when tile became much more popular.
SPEAKER_01And guys, one of the things we probably need to cover here is like the fundamental question of what's the worry? Like, what what's what are we really worried about here? Like we're the the Fish and Wildlife Service has said they are considering a reevaluation or looking at this rule, this 2024 rule that is currently used to guide the setbacks for drain tile installation. So what we we know it works because of what Scott described. It's individualized to the land to the landowner and to the property, it's based on science, it provides them safe harbor against legal action if they follow those guidelines. So we know it works for providing that that no impact on the on the wetland, uh, wetland functionality of these of these wetlands paid for, the easements paid for with duck stamp dollars. Um so what's the worry? Now we can't necessarily speak to why they're wanting to uh open this back up and and look at it, but the worry is there's uh there's some some worry that if they go back in and reevaluate this proposal, they may weaken some parts of those guidelines, which might give, I think, uh just to kind of use the example, uh, that I think it is with Swamp Buster, there is sort of greater allowances given for some change in water level as a as it relates to the installation of drain tile. I think that another way, you can probably if you're dealing with a Swamp Buster USDA wetland easement, you can probably uh get a little bit closer, maybe get a little bit deeper um to those wetlands with your drain tile installation. The worry is that somebody might have the bright idea to say, hey, let's apply those to these U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service um uh easement wetlands. That's a bad thing if we do that, because then you're losing, you're reducing the water level, you're reducing the height the hydro period, you're reducing the length of time that those shallow wetlands would hold water if you get that drain tile too close or too deep to those wetlands, right, Scott?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's exactly right. Um, and and those are the kind of uh discussions that have taken place. You know, well, we have USDA setbacks. What would be wrong with harmonizing and you know, everybody using the same? And, you know, part of our answer to that is well, it's a little bit different situation when you have purchased an asset, a portion of the property rights, um, like the Fish and Wildlife Service has done with these easements, you know, like funded by duck stamps, these all of these easements are uh considered part of the National Wildlife Refuge System. So, you know, those are uh I argue those are assets purchased by duck hunters that are part of our, you know, long-term investment in habitat. Those require a different standard. And if you read the language in the easement, it basically says no drainage. Um, it even says, you know, by ditching, by any other means, direct or indirect. So, you know, the standard that we talk about in ensuring those setbacks is, you know, you can't have an impact on the the water that the wetland is holding. That is in comparison to the situation with USDA and being in compliance with you know swamp buster and those kinds of things. The requirement there is minimal impacts. So they've defined that. And, you know, so they have setbacks that allow those tile to be closer. And, you know, they could have, you know, you could have a 15 or 20% reduction in the wetland area, and that would still be within the constraints of minimal effects. But when we're talking about easements that are an asset purchased by all of us who buy duct stamps, the standard is different.
SPEAKER_02So one thing I want to kind of touch on here, and I'm certainly not asking you guys to comment, but Scott, you mentioned the the C-word. You said corn. Before everyone gets really upset and thinks that this has anything to do with uh any other type of corn grown for recreational use, what we're really talking about is something I caught heat for back in the spring, is that ethanol subsidies may be the biggest thing that that really threatens duck habitat and duck numbers. And without getting off into the politics of all that, that's what's driving this. And I think it's worth I'll fall on the sword and point that out for you guys.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. No, Casey, that's exactly right. Like what I didn't mention and what you're bang on is that during, I want to say it was 2007, we instituted what was called renewable fuel standard, which said we will mix in 10% ethanol with all of our fuel. Um, and what we saw across the prairie potal region is we saw a dramatic increase in conversion of grassland and wetlands to be cropland because of that economic demand. You know, so it was a market signal that drove conversion, put more pressure on remaining wetlands and grasslands. And so that that is total reality. That's that's a fact that you know can't be debated. That's right.
SPEAKER_01That's right. And and when that type of thing happens, it increases. Is the value of these wetlands that remain and the protections that are placed on them. And again, of all the wetlands that we want to think about, that we take pride in, that we want to go to extraordinary lengths to protect, it's those wetlands and those grasslands that have been protected through funds raised directly by duck hunters. And that's what we're talking about right here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's worth pointing out because you know, I've seen some comments from detractors online today that's like, I'm not helping anybody until they fix, you know, whatever. But your dollars are already invested. If you bought a duck stamp, you're already invested in this. So you need to, you need to get involved. And I want to, I guess I should ask, these easements are voluntary with the landowners in the beginning, right? That's right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So everybody who signs up for these comes to the table and says, hey, fish and wildlife service folks, tell us about what you're offering here, what the payment is. So they get a one-time payment and the agreement is perpetual. But, you know, for some of these wetland easements, it could be approaching the fee title value of those wetland acres. So, you know, it can be pretty lucrative, but you know, these are totally voluntary. Um, I would also tell you guys that that there's there's still strong current demand from existing landowners out there waiting to sign up for these things. We're we're really limited by the dollars that we have to put in place to, you know, to sign the agreements and and get them on the ground. So, you know, there's still demand from landowners, despite the fact that that some want to say, oh, these are unpopular. It's like, well, people are still standing in line waiting to uh sign up for these. So, you know, somebody thinks it's a good deal.
SPEAKER_02That's a good point.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, and and you know, with this being a kind of a special edition episode to cover all this, and and might did a good job of interjecting there and saying why this why does this really matter? Now, what do we got to do? What as duck hunters, what are we supposed to do with this? Now we've got and more more information is kind of coming along. This isn't a deal that's you know in in Congress and they're about to vote on it, but they're they're feeling it out, and and that that's some level of seriousness by the federal government. So what are we doing? What are what are duck hunters? What are we gonna do with this info and and how do we need to act?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's a great question. Um, Brent, the timeline for commenting is pretty short. Comments on this request for information are due August 7th. So that's not this coming Friday, but that's next Friday. You if you go on social media, you will see also you should start to see all sorts of posts. Certainly if you're following Ducks Unlimited. If you're not, I encourage you to do so. Just go check out that webpage or our not our webpage, um, the our our social media accounts, you will see a sort of call to action uh which will provide a link where you can go in and sign a petition. You can do two things. We encourage you to do both of these. You can sign a petition, and then you can also provide some individualized comments, which carry a little bit more weight than signing the petition. So we encourage you to do both of those. There's some draft language that's already provided there. Um the if you want to go to the Ducks Unlimited website website, uh, it's a little, it's a little longer than what I'd like it to be. It's like ducks.org forward slash save dash the dash uh duck duck factory factory. Save the duck factory with dashes between those words. So um, but if you go to social media and look for um for for Ducks Unlimited's account, you will find the links to provide. And you may have already gotten an email. Check your email. I know we've sent out emails to uh a lot of email blasts with some guidance and talking points. Um, but the key is that we need to express support for the 2024 the 2024 rule that provides clear guidance to uh to landowners on drain tile setbacks associated with these uh these these wetlands that are covered by these permanent conservation easements. So we we support that that drain the 2024 rule. It's individualized, it's science-based, and it provides important safe harbor for the landowners. And there's no need to tinker around with it. It it protects our investment, it's good for the ducks, and we value ducks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, if you if you'll get us that link, we'll get it in the show notes here. On this episode, we'll share it on our socials too, where we're putting all this stuff out. And and I would challenge everybody, if you see these posts, be it ours, do you use anybody's post, share it. Like just flood social media with everything you see on this and make as many people aware as possible. Um my fear, I think Britt and I said this in a recent episode. A lot of times when uh state agencies have these comment periods, they've kind of already got their mind up. Uh, hopefully we can express enough opinion here that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife will hear the outcry. So we need everyone to get involved on this one.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. We appreciate it, guys. This is this is there are a few issues. And I don't know, this is probably at the top of the list since I've worked for Ducks Unlimited, since I've been associated with Ducks Unlimited. This is one of, if not the most uh potentially greatest threats to the investment that we've made in the prairie pothole region. And we, I hope, all know how the how important that landscape is for ducks and duck hunting.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that that's significant, Mike. That's very significant. Um, thank you guys for making time to get on here with us today. We're gonna, I think, try to roll this thing out as quick as possible. Um, we'll be at ducks over the weekend. Mike, if there's something else informative that comes up, or if you want to jump on and talk again, uh, we would love to have you and we can talk a little bit more about it. But thank you for your time and uh we'll see how many people we can get this out to. Thank you, fellas. Thanks, guys.
