Duck Hunting's Great Social Experiment

Few issues have stirred the duck hunting community like the USFWS proposal involving drain tile setbacks in the Prairie Pothole Region. For two weeks, social media feeds and podcasts were flooded with calls for hunters to submit public comments and help protect North America’s most important duck-producing landscape. Whether the campaign ultimately influences the agency remains to be seen.

But despite the wall-to-wall coverage, nearly one million duck hunters stayed on the sidelines. Why? Cason and Brent examine what became a real-time social experiment—and what the response, or lack of it, revealed about advocacy, influence and the priorities of today’s duck hunting community.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the Standard Sportsman Podcast, where duck and goose hunting's hottest topics meet a mission to leave the resource better than we found it. Lifelong Arkansas hunter conservationist Kasten Cork and Brett Burch bring you thought-provoking conversations with insightful guests before, during, and after the season. Glad you're here. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Hey, it's Brent and Kasten back with another edition of the Standard Sportsman Podcast. We're uh fresh off what we've talked about is a is a great um social experiment that just happened in the in the past two weeks, I guess. And I want to say we were kind of at the tip of the spear a little bit with with our podcast on this whole drain tile setback deal. And uh obviously a lot followed suit because we saw a lot of activity on social media, on podcasts, offline, online. Uh this this push to get people to stand up for you know some some rules and regulations that are in place that would really impact ducks. But we thought it would be interesting to kind of break down you know some of the politics involved in in things like this, but what we saw is a great very telling social experiment uh that went on with this particular issue.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Yeah, I'm curious. Uh you're using the term great. Was it great in scope or great in effectiveness?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Uh that's a valid question. There is as of right now, there is no effectiveness because we don't know whether all this effort is gonna convince the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to not uh back off um and change these setbacks. Uh so we don't really know. And now effectiveness as far as being out there and vocal, I've never seen any any issue come up in the duck hunting world that I can remember uh you know from a social media aspect, uh nothing get as wall-to-wall blasted as this.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

No, for sure. Um yeah, so it's interesting. I'll say this because I I think I said this when we did our episode with with Scott and Mike, you know, and I believe you and I, in a in a prior episode on our podcast, I believe I made the statement that you know, most of the time when these state agencies and I'm talking state agencies put out these comment periods, the hay's already in the barn. I mean, it's almost a formality that it has to go out for for comment, but they've made their mind up. And I I believe I said that with Scott and Mike, that I'm afraid U.S. Fish and Wildlife is in the same boat. That the decision really has been made. Uh the comments may not be meaningful in the end. I hope I'm wrong about that, but we shall see. But yeah, it was um hard to say how effective, but it was interesting because there were a few that you know that got that weighed into it early in that first week, and then it was like this second wave of influencers who I guess got their talking points or got involved, call it what you will, but there was seemed to be kind of this second push that that came in later in that period. I'm curious what your thoughts on that are.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

That yeah, that was noticeable. Uh, you saw it with brands too. Uh, and you can even say you saw it with one of the main conservation organizations as well, even though they really didn't get out there uh as as forward as as the other. Um, and I mean it's obvious Ducks Unlimited was on this deal from the the jump and really uh really made a lot of effort to to blast this thing to anybody and anybody that would listen. So yeah, uh it was definitely no, it was kind of a trickle of of people getting kind of behind this and trying to explain what it is and what his impact would be. And then it was you're right, a tsunami of everybody's gotta say something about it. And some of it was accurate, some of it was not accurate. Um, it's like they thought I got to get a message out there, but I don't really understand what this is, but I gotta say something because uh I I I want to be seen in this light. I I don't know, it's kind of hard to figure out because there were there was some mixed messaging um uh of what it is and and what it isn't uh too. So uh I mean I heard people calling it legislation, it's not legislation. There's nothing on Capitol Hill related to this, uh specifically uh what they were asking for. This is something that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Department of Interior is is you know evaluating, I guess is the way to say it. So uh yeah, that was that was a very noticeable. Um and another thing, you know, you you mentioned a minute ago the effectiveness, and I know there's been a lot of kind of pats on the back for the the 200 and some odd thousand that uh completed the U.S. Fish and Wildlife comment um effort, uh, which is a good number. Surveys, you know, everybody on a big issue puts one out. Uh the the response is always a pretty low number. You know, some people just aren't motivated to do it, some people don't feel like they know enough about it to do it, or they just it's it's just not on on their radar. But with that 220,000 that did it, uh that left another million that didn't do it. And and that's that's what I wonder how seriously the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will take all of this. And I'm not trying to rain on the parade of the effort of those that that really worked hard, including us. You know, we put a podcast out about it, talked about it again on the the live episode we did at at Duck. So we dedicated some effort to it as well, but to think a million duck hunters, and this is called in the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, this isn't a number I'm making up of active duck hunters. There was a million active duck hunters that did not take the two minutes it took to complete this thing, didn't do it. And so to me, that tells us we've got at some level, we've got a lot of people that um just see the sport a little different than than maybe say you or I or our listeners. Uh so we've got duck hunters and we got people that go duck hunting, and those are two two different things, and I think that kind of spilled out over into the results of this because I don't know how if you're uh you're on social media, I don't know how you missed it and and how you didn't participate. So we've either got not very many, not as many hunters on social media as we thought, or they're just not interested in standing up for ducks and for habitat. I don't know. It's kind of it was just kind of really eye-opening to me.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

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SPEAKER_01 8:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Um so either A it indicates that the big influencer push brought a lot of people in, or B, the the counting just lagged the actual reporting or the reporting, however you want to say that, it wasn't as as concise and as quick as we would like to have seen. And so maybe it maybe it was the big influencer push. Um but still if it was, if that's what brought us over the line there with the 200,000, why why couldn't we get more? You know, because they you know it it almost uh I don't want to say the market was oversaturated, but it it was so prevalent that uh I'm sure some people ignored it because it was just everywhere. You're just uh you know, not in a bad way, but I I could see where it got overlooked. I not that's not right. I shouldn't say overlooked. Um I don't I don't know what I'm looking for there.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

Yeah, I mean it it it may have but to to many it might have become a stale topic uh because it it was so prevalent on our feeds that you're like okay, there's another guy talking about another guy telling me I need to do this, another guy, you know, this, you know, one after another after another, because that second week it was truly everywhere uh on social media. And yeah, it could have gotten stale to some some people, uh, and and they're like, man, I don't know. This is kind of wearing me out. I'm not gonna get in the middle of this. I don't know. It'd be really interesting to to understand from the masses out there why a million didn't do it. And I realize a million are not on social media. I realize there's a contingency that duck hunting is just something they do once a year. Um, but that's still a number that's out there. Um, you know, we got 1.25 million active duck hunters, and and only 220,000 did this survey or submitted comment.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Yeah, you know, okay, so they may not be on social media, but they don't live in a vacuum. I mean, that they've got a hunting buddy somewhere that's on social media, right? I mean, somebody as big a deal as this thing is, yeah, somebody should have told them, hey, you do you do you know about this? Have you heard about this? You need to check into this, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah, yeah. I had to share it with my dad. My dad's on social media and the other partner in his uh duck camp. Uh so they both had to do it, but you know, they're not in they're not on social media at at all. What's it? I mean, zero. So they had to get it passed along by someone. It just happened to, you know, I happen to be the one to relay it. But yeah, do you want you wonder about that too? Did I did I go do this because I want uh you know my social media relevance tells me I need to do this? Or am I doing it because this is a deal and this could this could impact the you know the sport? I saw the deal at Ducks Unlimited uh at the expo with them walking around with the clipboards, getting them to sign the petition, which is separate, and that's a whole nother set of numbers, but they're not as valued, they're not going to be as valued by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service as people took the time to go in there and make a personal comment as to why they don't want this setback deal to change. Right. Um, because all they did was ask, and I saw I stood there, and they, you know, people girl walked up with a clipboard, it was a group of people and asked them, Will you sign this petition? They're like, Well, what's the petition about? And then she goes, Well, it's strange towel setbacks, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. What is that? Um, okay, here, just give it to me. Sign name and what where they were from, and that was it. And so I don't, you know, how many people that did that even understand what this was about, how many of them are overlap, how much, how many of them did both? Um, so it's real hard to understand what the you know, kind of what the real numbers are. I did I just keep coming back to a million, one million did not get involved.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Yeah. And I don't I don't blame anyone for not understanding, you know, when Mike first brought it to my attention that Friday evening, you know, okay, I I know understand the prairie pot hole, understand you know, the tile draining. I did not know anything about setbacks. It was not something that had ever really landed on my radar, but I understood it pretty quick once he explained it, you know. So I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like I really fully understood what was going on. Like it wasn't on my radar, it wasn't something that you and I were dealing with beforehand. So yeah, I don't blame anyone for being like, what is that? Because again, the you know, the setback and that regulation side of things just wasn't it was a detail I wasn't familiar with.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

Yeah, I I miss I I and I initially misunderstood it. Uh just to you know a quick glance at it. Okay, I th I I thought it was this, and I and I was off. It was it was something else. But uh yeah, I'm not yeah, yeah, my commentary wasn't on they didn't they weren't informed and know. No, sure. Most of us, especially in this part of the world, have no idea because we don't we don't deal with all that. So that was that was uh just the fact that you know they probably signed something they really didn't understand or know um what they were signing, is I guess my point.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

That was an interesting comment you just made uh about not being up there and being in the know. That was something that was kind of I might use the word inflammatory, you know. I I saw a lot of comments in support of it uh from farmers, what have you, you know, that uh that are in the know. And since, you know, I don't live up there, I must be an idiot. But I look at it in a pretty cut and dry way. Somebody somewhere voluntarily engaged, enrolled, agreed to that easement and was compensated for it. I don't care how far down the line it is or who just bought this property and that well, I didn't agree to the easement. No, but you you agreed to purchase it, and that easement was disclosed. So trying to change this because you don't like uh a um an easement that was installed on a property, that's not how the world works. Um it shouldn't be anyway. So that was that was my big problem with it. And like I said before, I'm a farmer, landowner, I understand all those things, but you know, when a when a permanent easement is put in place, it it is what it is. So I anyway, I took a little offense to that stance that you know, oh, the farmers need this. And then I saw that comment a lot. Like, and I believe me, I get that. We we can get into and we will in this episode, we're gonna get into a little politics here. I understand how tough the ag economy is right now, it's brutal, absolutely brutal. Um, but I don't think encroaching on these wetlands is gonna be the margin that makes these guys profitable. Um, I heard someone make that comment, and then in the very next breath, they they talked about how all these things were smaller than one acre, and it's this is no big deal. I'm like, well, one acre is definitely not gonna make that farmer profitable. So why are we having this argument? Yeah. Um, you know, you can't, you know, they're trying to have their cake and eat it too, and it just I found it kind of annoying. So but that brings me back to that question. Like, how do we how do we create the next generation of conservationists? How do we that's what we said in in the when we recorded this the first time, like Ducks Unlimited did a fantastic job getting these people in the door for the Ducks event. There were a ton of people there. I was blown away at the foot traffic, but how many of them are gonna be the the next conservationists? Because I like we're not we're doing a piss poor job right now of selling conservation, like and I don't know what to do. I don't I don't know how we better that, but I I don't think we're effective with our approach.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Well, no, I mean it it's plain plain to me, very clear to me, that conservation isn't cool. Uh there's other things right now being, I guess, quote unquote sold is cool, uh, whether that's fast boats, whether that's big pile. I mean, there's all these things, all these things uh that you could laundry list out, but there's not a lot of people out there making conservation cool and making it why this why it's important for you to have this mindset now. If you want to be doing this when you get to be, say, my age, uh, and when you when your kids get to be that age. And and I get it, when you know, and I was younger, I had much shorter term vision on things. Uh there's no doubt about that. But at the same time, um that's where that seems to be a a beat we're missing. And I I see I can see the two main conservation organizations kind of sliding into you know, almost trying to be relevant, cool, social media-wise, it kind it kind of strays from what they're really about and what they're really doing. Uh and whether that's brand. Yeah, kind of off-brand. That's a good way to put it. Uh, but maybe that's an effort to try to convert. I don't, I don't know. I'm not sitting in those meetings and and strategizing with them, but it is kind of noticeable.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Yeah, so I was gonna say, you know, you you mentioned kind of getting old getting older and seeing things differently. Uh you know, I'll own up to it. Uh, I've I've at one time in life had a drag boat uh and may or may not had a sub behind the seat of a standard cab pickup when I was a kid. So I'm familiar with loud music and fast boats. Um, I think what troubles me is the adults in the room aren't selling conservation. You know, how many how many adults do we see on social media still pushing gripping grins, you know, and that's where that I don't I don't fault any of those 20 somethings that came through the door for where they're at in their life circle or whatever uh of being a hunter, you know, because I was there, uh, you were there. But it's it's it's up to us to to make it cool and have you know the the people they look up to should be the ones selling conservation. And that's where I think we're we're kind of letting that slide. And and you're right, you know, uh while I don't I don't love the idea of you know everybody trying to be a lifestyle brand in the conservation realm, maybe it does recruit people and and you know they're not paying me to sit in in those meetings and give my opinion. So and that's not my area of expertise, but I kind of feel like both those brands, you know, they're uh they're a household name, at least in the in the duck hunting realm. You know, my dad always told me the guy that tries the hardest to be the coolest is probably the least. So you you know, don't don't try, just just be you and people will like you. Um I think that's probably pretty fair advice in this category, too.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Well, uh yeah, uh duck hunting could use a lot of lot more authenticity. Uh that is for sure. Um but yeah, uh I think that's a great point, uh, is the mentorship piece. Um, and you you definitely see more kids and kids, I'm gonna lump late teens, early 20s somethings, maybe mid-20s, maybe even late 20s, you know, in that under 30. We'll say under 30. Kids keep getting older as we get older. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's that's a valid point. Uh, but you definitely see more of them hunting independently. Um, you know, growing up, I was uh pretty much always hunting with my dad, and so are all my friends. Uh the the the there wasn't a click of us that we're going and and chasing ducks in biomeda and and traveling all over. Now we did we did some of that in our 20s, definitely mid to late 20s, definitely chasing ducks all over the place. But for the most part, you know, you and you and you saw all your friends as well, even if they hunted public grounds. So this isn't a commentary on, oh, you guys did that because you had private club and that's where you went. It was the same with my friends that all hunted public and their dads hunted public. Now you see these groups of kids, and you kind of saw them at ducks. There was no uh adult figure, mentor figure present. And there's not a lot of times you when you see them hunting, or you see them at Macs, or you see them at the burger joint in Stuttgart, um, they're running clicks, and so they're having to find their own identities and and understand what this sport is about and what it isn't about, and and that may be where we're off track a little bit, and then you get some of the social media stuff perpetuating it. I mean, you got full ass grown adults acting like 19 year olds, and and that's what they see, and that's how they act. And and I know a lot of fingers get pointed at uh if it wasn't for these non residents or these kids. Everything would be right in the woods. And maybe it need maybe some self-reflection in the mirror might help a little bit on that too.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

Yes. Yes. They're definitely try to find the words to not offend. I don't care if I offend certain people. I just don't want to blanket everybody in this. There's some piss poor adult role models out there. Um that that one, some people are looking up to. I I don't really get that. And two, those people are trying to position themselves as someone to be looked up to. Um or at least for their actions. And you know, that's I guess that's the part that's not making conservation cool. We're making something else altogether differently cool, or at least their their followers are. So I don't know. We we need more yeah. We need more adult leadership to to shape the next generation.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

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SPEAKER_02 26:25

Yeah. Um not to shift gears away from that. Uh we had a few conversations, you and I, and I guess I'll bring it up here. Um we had a few conversations about the conservation organizations and how they how should I say this? I don't want to say alienate other brands, but there's there definitely seems to be certain allegiances that they they both play. Like you can you can look at who partners with who and doesn't partner with the other. And you know, I think to the average hunter, there's probably not a lot of understanding of the deals that go on behind closed doors and how that stuff happens. But I think it kind of sets a I think it sets a little bit of a bad look. Um one, it implies that, well, this brand believes this because there was so-and-so, and this brand believes that. And I guess ultimately we this was a conversation you and I were kind of having that you know, be it it's fine for NASCAR or the NFL or anything else to have an official this or that, they're for profit, right? But I think in the world of these nonprofits, we shouldn't have anything that's official and then in turn close the doors to someone else or limit access to someone else. I think everybody should get a seat at the table. And I I I think you would in turn raise more money. I I feel like I don't know, it it's not it's the it's the ugly side of what's going on. And and I'm speaking about both of them because they both do it, so I guess I'll get blasted by both equally, but uh I don't know. I feel like we limit opportunities for for brands to work with both. Uh and if you're a consumer of brand X and you support conservation group A, you should be able to go buy a co-branded widget with either one. You know, and I feel like when we make these deals or when they make these deals and exclude other brands and exclude other things, you limit the opportunity for someone who's brand loyal with their products to be involved with your organization and the brands that they like. So that's just something I noticed a good bit in recent time. And I don't know, I think there's room for improvement there. I I don't it's not my favorite look, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Yeah, that's uh yeah, it's an interesting take for sure, because you would think, okay, why would you turn down any dollars that want to go towards the mission of what your organization is? And uh I I don't know, I you know, I get I don't get to see the inner workings of their financials and everything else to see whether is the exclusive whatever uh vendor of the of whatever conservation organization is that more lucrative than splitting that up amongst maybe all of them. And I know I know why a brand does it. I mean uh there there's there's very obvious reasons why they do it. Um, but yeah, you could you definitely you can you can name some companies that are on one side of the fence to the other, depending on which organization they they're they're linked to, and and you you do wonder, does that turn off the consumer that's like, okay, should I give money to this one? Well, this one, I like the this brand of clothing, or I like this boat, or I like this kind of decoys, so I should support that one. It's a it's an interesting um shell game that uh yeah, from outside looking in, it does look a little funky to have a nonprofit with exclusive sponsors and things like that. Um, given how cash-strapped uh nonprofits can be and and you know what they're supposed to be spending money on. Um you'd hate to think they're turning it away to to keep uh another sponsor happy, but I don't know. That that's kind of stuff goes on behind closed doors, and we're obviously not privy to that. But yeah, that's a that's an interesting take. I I will mention, and we'll see if how many people notice, but uh, you know, there was a letter drafted by the CEO of Bandit, which is Austin Booth, friend of ours, former Arkansas Game and Fish uh director. Uh, but he took it upon himself to bring brands together and submit a letter on behalf of those in the industry. And he included some personalities, he included some podcasts, which we were we were included in that, and and thankful that he reached out and and wanted us to participate uh in all that. But it did bring some brands together, some other brands that didn't participate or couldn't make the decision timely enough. And that's that you know, that's another thing that the decision they made behind closed doors. We're not privy to all that, but it was good to see a company, you know, his leadership to to jump out there and say, guys, we as an industry, uh although we compete, we need to be we need to be uh uh having our voice heard on this this topic as a united front kind of kind of effort. And I th I thought that was great. Uh you do not see that very often, especially in a in a very competitive market, um, which is is which is where banded that's where they live, they live in it. Um we all know you know you only got 1.25 million duck hunters and you're trying to sell them all something with your camo pattern and and your you know your fabric and everything else in decoys and you name it, it's it's uh very competitive because there's a lot of companies out there. So I I do give them a tip of the cap to uh for leading that effort and and the brands that got on board with it kind of dropped their guard, so to speak, and and said, Yeah, I put my name on that thing. I'm I'm all in. Um so so that you know from the good side uh that that happened, but that was independent of the well, I say that was independent of the conservation organizations. I I do believe I all right, I'm pretty sure Ducks Unlimited was involved because I I know somebody that signed the letter and a in a company and their sponsor of the show. They heard about the letter from Ducks Unlimited. So uh I'm sure they leveraged their contacts to help us help us rally the troops behind this thing and and get them to sign this letter. And and um that seemed to go go really well. Um and so it's another uh kind of ties into your your take that why would you want to exclude anyone?

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Well, yeah, that's a great example. And and again, kudos to to band and Austin Booth for that. You know, they they included everybody. Um tried tried hard to include some that weren't listed, you know. They it was not a this wasn't an attempt to to better themselves or sell more jackets. It was to to rally everyone around a conservation cause. And I think that's the root of my issue, you know, with some of the exclusive and I they don't list it as exclusive, but that's what it is when it's an official this, it's the only one. Right. So but anyway, I'll try to get off that little soapbox before I piss everybody off.

SPEAKER_01 34:09

Um I think hold on, hold on. I think there's a there's a I think there's a point to be made though from a you know from a hunter standpoint. I do think hunters took no because I I heard comments offline and online. I think people took notice of who who was involved in this deal and who wasn't. Um and I guess it was very noticeable some that were, and uh but I think more so it was the ones why haven't we heard from Company X or why haven't we heard more from Conservation Organization Z? And some hunters took notice uh because it it was noticeable when when you have some some big name brands that weren't involved in this, and they they probably have their reasons. There might have been this whole working behind the scenes thing that we hear, but um working behind the scenes in today's day and age, I don't know if that's the best PR move on something like this. Uh, because uh like I said, uh uh people took notice and they're not gonna they're not gonna know in a few months or a week after or whatever the timeline is that oh, all this work was done behind the boot. We just didn't want to tell anybody about it. Because it makes you go, well, really? Why wouldn't you have told anybody about it? Why wouldn't you have why wouldn't you have rallied your customers, your uh membership, whatever the case may be, why would you not get out there and say, guys, we need you going to the Federal Register and submitting a comment on this. Here's what to say, here's what it's about, you know, all these things. And so to play it all behind the scenes is just I don't know, it makes me hit scratch my head a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Sure. And and you know, this wasn't this wasn't a piece of legislation, as you pointed out earlier. So this wasn't a lobbying issue behind the scenes. Uh you know, as far as I know, there was was there anything to be done behind closed doors?

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Uh I mean, maybe, I guess if you have certain connections I'm not aware of, but I mean there is, but when they take public comment, when they ask for public comment, why not get all of as many people in the public realm to take two minutes and go submit a comment?

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Yeah, I agree. I don't know. I agree with you on that one.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

That's uh it's a tough one to understand from a PR standpoint, but uh, you know, got got your reasons. I have a few ideas as to why, but I I don't think it's appropriate for the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

Yeah, I don't want to keep that offline. You and I get into speculation a little too much anyway, so we'll avoid that one.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

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SPEAKER_02 38:03

So since we're we're just sitting here making everyone mad, you want to talk politics?

SPEAKER_01 38:07

Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, kind of the the politics of this sport, uh, because uh to me, I would have thought, and maybe because it maybe it's too early in the process for somebody on Capitol Hill or somebody from Party A or Party B to step forward and say, wait a second, why are why are we evaluating this? So was that behind the scenes? Was this a was this a uh a lobbying of something towards the farmers in that part of the world to maybe make them feel a little bit better about things? Because as you alluded to earlier, farming is tough right now, uh, incredibly tough. And so is this an effort to oh maybe we could maybe we can win some voters in in the Dakotas and in Minnesota and other PPR uh regions by kind of throwing them this bone a little bit. Um I don't know. There was a there was a really good article um written in uh a magazine called Project Upland. Um and I would encourage you to go read it because it was it was really interesting to to read. And it was written by a guy that was uh he he was I don't know if he's now if he's still a Republican or he's or he's ri sitting right in the middle and kind of just navigating it to what he sees fit, but he's definitely not far left or far right. But it was an interesting take on the the misconception that the Republican Party uh has done all of these things for conservation. It goes back in time and and to be clear the Democratic Party from back then and the Republican Party from back then when some of these things were done is not what we have on in in the United States today. Um but it was the Republican Party has always been tied to conservation mainly because of Teddy Roosevelt. Uh he was obviously very forward-thinking in that and had and did a lot of great things in his administration with his mindset. So they've always kind of gotten the credit for that. But I don't know if you read on the Farm Bill, you know, the the Farm Bill was they were making some progress, but it it failed to get out of the Senate once again because they can't get uh together on SNAP benefits. That's the main thing. But there were also things in there I found interesting. There was a Democratic senator from Colorado that tried to reverse the cuts to equip. Uh, you know, they they they planned to cut like $1.9 billion uh from EQIP uh funds. And a Republican, I mean uh sorry, a Democratic senator from Colorado tried to reverse that in this version of the farm bill that was getting worked on, and it got shot down. Um, you know, EQIP, for those that don't don't know, it is a um uh conservation program run by the federal government that awards uh landowners uh dollars on projects that benefit soil, water, and habitat. Well, obviously ducks kind of rely on all those things in one way or another, so it indirectly impacts ducks. We've we've taken advantage of equip dollars on my farm uh for water control structures, some dirt work, cover crop, you know, it covers all kinds of things, but it's it's gonna be massively cut um by the current administration. And I thought it was interesting that a that a Democratic senator tried to flip that. Like we do not need to make these kind of cuts, and it got shot down. Um so I thought that was a that was an interesting piece. But uh yeah, this article, if you if somebody wants to go back and read it, uh I thought it was a pretty good take by this guy, and and uh it's worth a read just to kind of wrap your brain around all of it. Uh, but it's it was the disconnect between hunting and political reality in Project Upland. Um, but you it's ProjectUpland.com and the the story's right there on the front. So uh it was but it came out during this whole dragontow setback deal. And why didn't we, you know, Donald Trump Jr. and I'm not not I I'm a Republican, so just to be clear, I'm not sitting here from the other side of the aisle taking shots, but you know, part of the deal early on too was that Donald Trump Jr. was gonna be this advocate for conservation and and all these things, and he got a lot of criticism in the the whirlwind of this deal that he didn't come up come out and speak against changing these drain tile setbacks. So you so you have to go, all right, so where did this come from and and and who's pushing it and who's gonna allow this to keep making progress? And it makes you wonder a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Well, I think you brought up a really good point when you mentioned you know trying to do something for the farmers, because uh as a farmer uh under two two terms of the president that that I did vote for, uh we've taken on the chin, you know, and I I support a lot of the decisions that led to that because I definitely think there were some unfair trade deals that that Americans were suffering because of, and and it's you know, maybe I supported it then, I don't know that I do now because it's caused a lot of uh trickle down effects on all of us, you know. But there has been uh there's been some disaster relief for farmers, uh you know, or some more last year, early this year, and I think there's there's Pushing for some more, maybe in in this farm bill or budget cycle. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if that was an attempt to to give some relief to farmers. Um it looks like it may have backfired a little bit. Maybe not. Maybe there's more farmers that weighed in uh than there were duck hunters. That that's why it was important, you know. Um but the farm bill is an interesting thing, you know. And you look at you look at conservatives and democrats, uh, you know, it's pretty widely accepted that Democrats tend to want bigger budgets and spend more, and conservatives don't. And usually that stuff the the savings comes at a cost. And you know, I saw uh when it when it failed the other day, Senator Bozeman put out a post, and I know he didn't, someone on his staff did, but I was kind of looking through the comments there, and you know, it failed over SNAP benefits, and you know, somebody kind of smarted off about you know where what what farm grows Doritos and and Little Debbie's, you know, and which I'm not gonna weigh in on on SNAP benefits, but I it shouldn't be part of the farm bill. You know, the fact that all that stuff gets grouped together is because you can you can shove it through with something the nation cares about, which is agriculture. Uh, you know, I wish we had line item issues, but anyway. And then the the reply to the Doritos and Little Debbie was all the agriculture products that goes into those things. And that's a good point, that's a valid point, you know. But as a farmer, I tend to look at it like instead of giving that that handout to someone else and making me go to work to earn it, why don't you just give the handout to the farmer? I mean, if we're gonna pass out handouts, let's look at it the other way, because at least they're the ones trying to produce and struggling to do so right now. And and then of course, I'm sure there's someone listening that's gonna say, well, you're a conservative, why would you want a handout? You're a farmer, you know, blah, blah, blah. But you have to understand the ag economy and that we really don't have free trade. We're tied to trade agreements that our government gets into. We don't have pricing control. It's not like I buy steel and produce I-beams and can and can price my stuff where I want to. Uh, it's a very complicated thing. But but I think there's been some issues uh that have arisen out of out of things this administration has done. Um you know, I I was all for cutting back USAID, but at the same time, when we stop giving grain and food to other countries, we in effect took a buyer out of the market. Now, where does that buyer come from? How do we replace that? You know, is that part of what's driving Arkansas rice acres down right now? Very well could be, because the rice market is as poor as it's been in the last half century. Um, so again, one of those unintended consequences. And somebody posed a question to me the other day that was very it was very poignant. You know, at one point in time, rice production saved ducks. When we cleared the MAV to farm, they adapted to rice acres and rebounded because of it. But now I think the question is, and this is what I'll give friend of my credit to my friend for saying this, can ducks save rice? And I think we look at things, I think we're looking at things through the wrong lens. Why, instead of getting these uh handouts for poor prices and bad quality and all this stuff, why are we not incentivizing conservation? Because if we took away these marginal acres, if we restored them and made it lucrative enough that a landowner or farmer was willing to do so, now we've we've cut down on acres that aren't producing much. We've restored these wildlands, we we've increased wildlife, we've benefited everybody. The ag community, the hunting community, and we you you touched on equip, right? That's environmental quality habitat incentive program. So in going in and doing these things now, we we've helped neighborhoods downstream. You know, it is a these restoration products, don't excuse me, projects don't just benefit the land that they're going on, they benefit everyone and everything around them. So I think that's the big question. Like as we're trying to cut back our spending, why are we not focusing it in better areas? Um that's what I'd like to know. That's what's kind of on my mind lately.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah. Well, I mean, those are great points. And yeah, uh a lot of this is way more complicated than than someone sitting kind of outside of the outside of the sphere of of what's going on. Uh, but they'll see it. When you drive around your area, when you drive around the Grand Prairie this duck season, you will notice it is remarkable how few rice acres there are uh compared to what you're used to seeing. Uh and that's that's gonna have an impact. People talk about uh you know ducks being concentrated and all these private rest areas. Well, guess what? It's gonna get worse uh with with the way um the rice uh you know the farming economy is going for a rice farmer right now, they just can't afford to do it. Uh and it's uh it's gonna make those ducks go where there's gonna be food. And and that may not be on the lease that you have uh and have had, and you may not see the ducks in the in the areas you've had them because you maybe you got a bean crop this year, or you got corn that you do or don't flood, whatever that whole deal is. Um you know that so you got all that. So uh it is so much more complex than people see it, and you and I try like hell not to read the damn Facebook comments on stuff, but I get about two, I get about two or three in, you know, less than five in on some of these topics, and and I just immediately check out and go to something else because the the takes and the and the the believed expertise some people have is just mind-blowing uh when they really don't don't know what they're talking about. And I don't I can promise you I don't know everything I'm talking about, but I don't sit here and and uh you know tell somebody's you know you're an idiot because you think this or you don't you you don't uh know this or don't know that. Uh but I when I say something about it, I I feel like I'm speaking from uh from some level of either knowledge or or experience, and and this is one thing that is gonna have a bigger impact on ducks than than we know, and and the farm bill plays a huge role in that. Yeah, the the farmers' inability to control their markets is huge, and then you throw all this tariff stuff on top of it, um, it's made it really tough uh for guys, and and it's it's it's a hard one. And uh, you know, another thing floating around this farm bill, you know, for all the the the guys that want less corn and everything else, there's a there's a deal in there for a higher ethanol content gasoline, I think at the A15, I think is what it is, uh, that they want to be able to be offered year-round and both both sides of the aisle are in support of it. So you know what that means. That means more corn. Yeah. So uh, I mean that that's uh it's just it's a super complex topic that uh you could talk on for days and you could back it all into ducks, whether they're in the Dakotas, they've trickled down to Missouri, and whether in Louisiana and any points in between, um this stuff all kind of matters and it all goes into this, it starts in this big funnel at the top, and then it all starts kind of going to the bottom and starts coming out the other end, and its impact on ducks is pretty big. And and in turn, obviously that impacts duck hunting. So yeah. Politics are at play. Uh, for sure. Situated along the renowned Big Creek Flyway between DeWitt and Ethel, Arkansas, this 162-acre two-track hunting property offers an exceptional combination of prime waterfowl hunting and quality deer hunting in the heart of one of the most productive duck corridors in the region. The property boasts a diverse and dynamic wetland habitat, featuring a rich mosaic of cattails, willows, cypress trees, and buckbrush that naturally attract and hold ducks throughout the season. Whether you're chasing mallards or managing deer at this property delivers on both fronts. For more information, visit lawrillestate.com or call us at 501-374-3411.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Yeah, you know, one thing I wanted to add to your rice acres in Arkansas, with the El Nino that is predicted, uh it's worth pointing out that I think soybeans sour in like 72 hours once they get wet. So you know, it's entirely possible to get a heavy rain in early November and be almost no beans left by duck season. Um so it could be could be a very interesting year. It could. Um the corn note, you know, and every year's different. It's like farming, you know, no matter how many notes you take and how you plan, you know, next year will not present the same thing. So it's not like we can, I don't know, that you really learn from the experience because you don't have any control over weather, you're just along for the ride. Um but you know, you you talk about the comments. I've got to ask this question. I know I sent it to you. Man, what about the people who are chiming in to drain the potholes? I mean, and and the language that was used, you know, drain that MF or that way ducks will come to Louisiana. I'm like, you cannot be serious. There's there's almost no way that that was really their line of thinking. I get it, you're pissed off. I understand that, but Lord in mercy, that had to been some of the worst takes I've ever seen in my life.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Yeah, at first you're right. You you're like, uh, they're just doing that just to get people riled up. But then I I'm not so sure. I I I really just I think that there's enough out there, and they've got a keyboard and they've got a username and password to Facebook, and they just have these off-the-wall takes, and that's one of the most off-the-wall ones I've I've uh probably I've ever seen uh of that whole stance to go ahead and drain it. That's gonna send more ducks to us. Well, that's not really how it works. But yeah. No, not at all how it works. Because I last time I checked, there's no mallards. Uh at least I mean, there might be you know that hang out at some point. There's a heated ponder somewhere. Enough enough mallards to breed in Louisiana right now. I mean, it's a hundred degrees. Uh this is not where they want to be. Uh but naturally you do have some lake that park ducks, you know, become local ducks. But we're talking about huntable number of ducks. They're not breeding.

SPEAKER_02 55:16

Uh that's what I thought you were going to say that there were none that really stay up there through duck season. And that was what I was joking about, the heated pond. But yeah. Oh. Well, some do. No, they do. It's it's not, you know, it's not enough to account for the low numbers on this end of the MAV. No, it's not. It's not.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

But uh, but yeah, I agree. That was a that was a really bad take. And that that kind of not to completely shift away from that, but I think it's kind of related. It was something I wanted to talk about today, and it kind of circles all the way back to the beginning and the effectiveness of social media. And is that the best way to reach people and and uh push advocacy? And and no doubt it is a channel uh to use and to leverage. Um, but you know, yeah, you obviously have to reach obviously this showed you didn't reach everybody because there's a million that didn't do it. And it was you could not have pushed it any harder than what it was pushed over that two-week period. So kind of kind of this kind of cross paths with R3 in all this effort to to you know, all this talk about the North American conservation model. We need more hunters, hunters are what fund conservation. Yeah, I think a lot of them do it indirectly, they don't even know they're doing it. Um and we all know Pittman Robertson dollars do funnel money back, but a lot of that is through handguns and and and other uh bullets and and things that people fish and rods and other things that people purchase that don't have anything to do with ducks. So my question to you is, and maybe to somebody listening to do we really need more hunters? I mean, did this this whole drain tile setback social experiment show we've got a lot of people that hunt ducks that just aren't gonna advocate and they just aren't gonna participate in a in a hot button issue unless it's something that affects their decoy spread directly. Now, obviously, duck production, change in wetlands, that's an indirect impact on our decoy spreads come November, December, January. But a lot of you know, a lot of the heated exchanges you see, social media wise and and maybe some coffee shop wise, it's directly related to to you know where they hunt. So do we need do we really need more hunters? Or would do we need more hunters that will be engaged and advocate and be forward thinking versus just let's get our numbers up?

SPEAKER_02 57:56

Yeah, so I think we need more hunters. Um you know it's it's the same in the in the 2A realm, you know, more hunters. It's the same thing, right? More more gun owners makes it easier to protect our gun rights. More hunters makes it easier to protect our hunting rights. Now, I had this conversation with a friend the other day, former guest on the show, should have him on again sometime. We were talking about uh, well, we were talking about the sunken lands, right? And he made the comment he'd never been up there, never gonna go up there, that's not where he hunts, you know, and we talked about how people shift around in the state, uh, that these WMA bands just move non-residents onto the refuges, which if you're not familiar, that's state versus federal ground. So you're just moving people around, right? Which kind of gave way to the whole conversation of people are different now. Like you, you know, when when you were talking about when you were a kid, like you hunted with your hunting with your dad, you kind of hunt in the same spots. That's not the case anymore. And our days afield are not the same as they were in the 80s or the 90s. So I think we need more hunters, but we don't need hunters that pick up and leave Arkansas to go hunt Kansas because the ducks are in Kansas. And I'm not saying it's bad to travel, I get it. People travel, that's fine. But I think when you're invested in a particular area and you're not traveling freely to go wherever the ducks are, one that when the ducks are somewhere else or someone is having a good year, they don't get as pressured there, right? Um, but you're a little more invested in your particular area, you're a little more invested in what drives success in your area. Um I don't know, it's kind of like shopping local, right? Like you you care more about your local economy when you shop local, and I kind of think we've strayed from that. So, yeah, I think we need more hunters, but I I think our ability to just go wherever we want, whenever we want, has kind of led to a uninvolved attitude in terms of conservation. Uh what do you think? Am I way out left field on that?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

Uh no, it's an interesting take. I hadn't really thought of it that way. Uh, I mean, I definitely believe you've got to asterisk somebody that that says that, or somebody that hunts you know five or six different WMAs in Arkansas, depending on where the ducks are, then you know they they want to talk about how great their season was. Um, no different than you would asterisk somebody that has a you know $25,000 an acre green timber private GTR. Uh you would take what they said with an asterisk. Sure. So, you know, the ability to travel around and and go where the ducks are and do better than your buddies or your peers, yeah, that's a little bit of an asterisk because most of us don't do that. Most of us hunt where we hunt, we have ducks, we have them. If we don't, we don't. Um, and we're not all running around with $25,000 an acre GTRs either. So uh I think you that's kind of two ends of the spectrum, but I but they're similar to me in listening to somebody say, Oh, yeah, duck, everything's fine, ducks are fine, we're killing, we're killing them. Uh, it's a little different angle both ways. Uh so yeah. Um I think it has, I think it has changed. Uh the way we hunt definitely has changed. Uh yeah, this ability to travel like this is totally new. Uh I think it was a little bit of a thing prior to COVID, but COVID forward, it's definitely a thing. Um you you got a lot of people that that chase them and chase them hard and and take jobs that allow them to do that and and things like that. And that that's all personal choice and and not knocking it whatsoever. I might have done it at a certain age too, uh, once upon a time. But um, yeah, that's that's an interesting take. Um I just I just think this this whole drain tile deal um really showed showed us some things about who's in duck hunting uh at the current time. Or engage it better. And I it's kind of I think you got duck hunters and I think you got people that go duck hunting, like I said earlier. And that doesn't have anything to do with how many you kill. Uh that's not what I'm talking about. Uh yeah, I'm uh you know, I you got somebody, oh man, I've been I'm a duck hunter. I've been you know killing, we killed 750 a year or you know, whatever the number is. I'd be still the number out there, but that's not what I'm talking about. Um a duck hunter would be engaged on this topic and would would advocate and be forward thinking, and how do I perpetuate this from my kids and my grandkids? Somebody goes duck hunting is is obviously passively even listening to what a drain tile setback is, and then probably goes, Okay, um yeah, I'm not going to submit a comment. That's I don't give a shit. So uh that that's the delineation I'm talking about. So I think you said it right there.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:03

I think you said a lot when when you said you want to make sure this is here for my kids. I think when a lot of guys become fathers, that that light bulb goes off and it's like, man, I've loved doing this for a long time. How do I make sure that my kids get to do it? Now I think that's when a lot of people evolve into that you know, that conservation mind. Uh because you look at things differently as a parent, there's no doubt.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:29

Yeah. Well, and uh it is also very clear to me, crystal clear to me. There are there are influencers, there are uh and you can't help when you were born. Uh that that's not what what I'm getting at. But there are people involved in this sport that really do they don't know what a good season, a really good duck season looks like. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

And through no fault of their own. You can you can't help when you were born or when you came into the sport. But ooh, we I have a hard time. I have a hard time taking lessons from somebody who's been in the sport less time than you know, I've got t-shirts that have been duck hunting. Not to be a jerk. I'm not trying to wave around my history or length or whatever, you know, like but again, we we we we don't evaluate people's bona fides before we crown them influencers. We just just take them at their word because they told us so on social media.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

Well, yeah, there's that element. There's that element for sure. And and yeah, to be clear, uh you and I both would uh with 1,000% conviction have the realization we were fortunate to be born into the situations we were in. You know, dads that duck hunted, grandfathers that duck hunted, had places to go, you know, all those things. I I get all that. And and somebody coming into it because and their dad doesn't hunt. I got I got friends that they're in that same boat. They're their dads didn't hunt, and they just gravitated to it because of friends. Um, but at the same time, um there is there is that element, and you know, whether everybody's bona fide or or or how they portray themselves to be bona fide, I don't know if that's you know the case in a lot of situations. And and uh did that did that or is this influencer uh culture that we're in, is it is it paying off? And brands, I don't know. I don't know how brands evaluate. Are they evaluating it just because of activity on their accounts, or are they they evaluating it into turning things into sales or or representing their brand or you know, whatever all the metrics are that they want to look at? But I can tell you in this case, with this drain tile setback issue, to me, it doesn't sound like It it's two things. Either they weren't as impactful as we thought they were, or there's not as many duck hunters on social media as as we think there are. Because somewhere in all this, a million people didn't do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

Yeah, well, I so I wonder. I wonder how many people would be and and this, you know. Yeah, I'll say it like this because I don't want anyone to think that I'm just taking shots at that a younger generation when we talk about them and influencers, you know. So that this shot that's coming will will be kind of aimed at our age group, right? Like I I'm very blessed to to remember lead shot and the point system and 30-day seasons, right? Like I I've seen the struggle, you know, and I and I remember the knee-jerk seasons, I remember all these things, you know. But at the same time, while I don't I don't necessarily hold it against anyone when they were born or when they started hunting, I also don't really care to be lectured by someone who doesn't know anything but six and sixty. Um because you weren't there, you don't remember when it was bad, you know. You all you know is what's current through no fault of your own, but that's all that they know. Now, I wonder how many other people that share that same sentiment as me thought the same way about the drain tile issue. Like, I'm not listening to that from these people. So I I guess in this, I guess I'm taking a shot at myself. So I'm mad at me. Yeah. I've now made everybody mad.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

Well, I mean, I uh full 360. Um, I mean, that's that there's probably some element out there of that. Um and and you know, was the messaging on this was it completely all the eggs put in the social media basket and the podcast basket to get this point made. Now part of it, they didn't have a choice. It was two weeks, really quick. You couldn't do, I mean, you could do a mailing, but I mean, what you don't know how what kind of impact that would have such a short time. You just had to hope for one mouth. Social media and podcasts, yeah. You had to do some get it out there and let people talk about it and see if it trickles to other offline channels. I'm I'm taking it that it that it really didn't. Um it doesn't seem that way to me anyway. Not not given the amount of coverage it got online. I mean it was everywhere. Everywhere. So I it's just this this this this whole deal was really interesting and eye-opening to me. Yeah, it was and maybe it makes maybe it makes all of us and conservation organizations included, and maybe even brands rethink how they what what how are you gonna handle the next one? Because there'll be another one.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:57

No, this topic's not gone.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

No, and yeah, and this one's not gone. Nothing has been decided. I mean, it just because we've got 220,000 comments doesn't mean everything's fixed because it's not. They ain't decided anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

Well, and that's so again not to give them air time, but that's some of my problem with with these other groups that want to detract from Delta and Du so viciously. Um it's not helping. It's not helping their cause either. I I know they think that it does, but you're you're just hurting ducks and in turn duck hunters. Um I I know you and I both offered up some criticism during the show on both of them, but I mean the the good far outweighs anything that we talked about. Um, you know, well, our our message and our conversations there was how do we how do we do it better? Not to say that anything was being done poorly, just that there may be opportunities to do things a little bit differently. But but the groups that are taking away from it, again, those comments we saw, all that stuff, man, like it's just that's eye-opening, you know, along with the million people who didn't weigh in. So I don't I don't really know what to think of it. Um I'm glad the numbers came up. I'll say that. So I guess I'm I'm a little pleased by that. Uh I'm not pleased overall, but I'm glad they did come up because man, there was a point in time when we were, you know, one or two percent of hunters weighed in, and it was really, really alarming at that point. The Ducks Unlimited National Trip Auction is live. If your perfect trip starts before sunrise and ends with a full memory card, this is where you begin. Explore waterfowl trips, upland fishing, big game experiences, and more all in one place. Head to Ducks.org slash NTA. The DU National Trip Auction is presented by Google. Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:59

Yeah, it was like golly. Yeah, I don't know. We we talked about a lot of stuff uh that kind of circles back to that. Okay, what do we do next time or when this comes back up again, or the next issue that comes up, what do we do different to to get our voice uh to be more impactful? And we'll see if that how impactful this has been. Like like like we said, the jury's still out. Uh and and you're right, the hay may already be in the barn. This was just the part of the pro they have to do this as part of the process, and and they they did it. But uh do they already know that we're gonna we're gonna match USDA setbacks and this is what's this is what's happening. Appreciate y'all's effort and appreciate you doing a comment, but yeah, I'm afraid that's I'm afraid that's the reality.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:51

Yeah, we'll see. Well, I I think now that I've gone full circle and insulted myself, I'll I'll quit for today. So I uh I appreciate everyone tuning in. Uh hopefully, hopefully not everyone's mad about everything we said today, but you know what? That's uh that's what podcasts are for for opinions and thoughts, and hopefully some of those was thought provoking. So appreciate you guys checking it out. Uh, you can find us online at thestandardsportsman.com or anywhere you get your podcast.