Ryan Gentry

New Mexico native Ryan Gentry serves in the U.S. Air Force and operates Black Horn Guide Service, pursuing big game across his home state. Ryan joins the show to break down New Mexico’s tag and draw system, including how nonresident and outfitter allocations are shaping hunting opportunity and affecting the resource. The conversation then turns to the consumption-driven mindset of today’s hunters and whether R3 still makes sense when access is shrinking, pressure is increasing and wildlife resources are already stretched thin.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to the standard sportsman podcast. We're talking good topics. We commissioned to leave the resort better than we found. Lifetime Arkansas hunter conservative torque and Brent Burke. Bring the thought-provoking conversations with the title guest before the code.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Hey, it's Brent and Catzen back with another edition of the Standard Sportsman podcast. We're sitting here in the mid-south, I guess under one of these heat dome, these uh heat dome type deals, because uh we were talking with our guest who's not in uh Arkansas, uh, that uh it feels like the asphalt's on fire, it's a damn hot. But uh but yeah, that's it is what it is. End of July, mid-south, gotta deal with it.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

It is, and it's wild that you know it'll be back close to the 80s here in a couple days. So similar to last week, I guess. We get two hot days and then a couple cool ones. I guess that's better than uh seven straight days of just oppressive heat. Uh exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

Well, we've uh we've got a uh little different episode that's gonna kind of expand beyond our our boundaries here in in this particular area, but it uh based on what we've kind of talked about and batted around, it's got a lot of application here and and and very interesting uh because it's it is a different way uh as to how things are done compared to to what's going on around here. So I'll let you uh introduce our guests and we'll get going.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Yeah, it's uh so it's a buddy of mine who's who's been out and hunted with us, uh, has hunted Arkansas before, has his own podcast. I'm gonna give him a chance to talk about that while he's here today. But I caught an episode the other day and they were talking about their outfitter issues and draw permits and all of these things, and and there were a lot of issues that were strikingly similar to the waterfowl world. So uh I immediately reached out. I was like, we got to get you on the show, man, because you gotta you gotta talk about that to our audience. So joining us today is a buddy of mine. This is Ryan Gentry, owner of Blackhorn Guide Service in New Mexico. Uh, you guys do big game, right? You don't do any waterfowl out there, right? No, sir.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Well, we personally hunt a little bit. We dabble in the Rio Grande and the Pecos River Valley, but nothing like what you guys have. But yeah, primarily uh all big game. Um, and then you know, funny to hear you guys talk about the heat wave. I feel lucky over here. We're 80 miles north of the Mexican border and it's low 90s and raining, so it's I wouldn't trade you for anything right now.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

That is insulting. Yeah, no, tell us a little bit about you. Uh you grew did you grow up hunting, is that right?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

I do, yeah. So born and raised in New Mexico. Um, you know, everybody in New Mexico kind of hunts, probably similar to Arkansas. Um, you know, it's just one of those things you kind of do growing up. And I didn't really do it too much during high school. I was focused on sports and school and and just, you know, kind of doing doing that thing. And it's it's funny. I have a 14-year-old son who's a freshman this year, and I see a lot of similarities in him that where I was, where he he can take it or leave it if we take him on. He's happy. If he doesn't, he's happy. It's not it's not something that he's focused on playing high school soccer. And I remember those days, and it's it's one of those things where you know, you kind of just think back on how you got started hunting, and and I'm like, I don't want to push him, I don't want to, I don't want to make it something that's a burden to him, or he doesn't want to do, or doesn't enjoy it. So it just kind of thinks I think about back in when I got started, and I really didn't get crazy into hunting until you know almost adulthood, when you had your own, you know, money, your own time, your own transportation. I'm sure it's a very similar story for a lot of you guys out there. Um and that that's kind of you know, throughout my career, and I am I'm in the Air Force outside of doing the hunting thing, and hunting was kind of just always this way for me to escape and and refine myself between, you know, various assignments and deployments and stuff. And one day we just came to the realization, like, man, we could, you know, we were already guiding and we were like, man, we could run this so much better on our own. Let's start our own deal and and make it about the people in the community and not always just about the animals. And, you know, not not not kill the biggest elk there is, you know, not out here chasing 400 inches every haunt, but chasing an experience and a good time with somebody. Just kind of the the direction we took on that.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Yeah, I think that resonates with a lot of duck hunters at Arkansas too. You get a lot of that, you know, everybody wants to uh hang full straps and and have mallards and do all that, but then there's a lot of people that appreciate the whole experience of it. Um we all like we all had to kill stuff who wouldn't go do it, but there's a lot more to it than just that. Right, right. The Ducks Unlimited National Trip Auction is live. If your perfect trip starts before sunrise and ends with a full memory card, this is where you begin. Explore waterfowl trips, upland, fishing, big game experiences, and more, all in one place. Head to ducks.org slash NTA. The DU National Trip Auction is presented by Google.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

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SPEAKER_03 5:41

Uh, which I guess is a good time for you to tell us the name of your podcast.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

So about two years, a year and a half ago, we uh we started a podcast called The Hunt for More, which was along the lines of like there's so much more to all of this than just the haunting itself, right? Whether that's life experiences or you know, community with people and different things that draw you to hunting through life, whether it be you know just different struggles and trials of life where you get to say, hey, for a week I'm gonna go hunt deer and not think about all the stresses of life. And we were like, why don't we capture that in in a in a podcast to kind of just help and inspire people that yes, we're hunters, yes, it's about hunting, but there's so much more to that, right? Um, between the fellowship and community and just you know your your own personal journey with where you are. And I started it with you know my business partner Cole and then one of our close friends who's also in the Air Force with me. Um, and we we've had a hard time being consistent, obviously, with him and I having deployments in between and different things. It's it's hard to get a you know a weekly podcast out. I mean and uh I think we just kind of started it out of passion and just really didn't have a we need or have to do this. It was more of like, let's do this when it's applicable. So the one you you just listened to recently about the the draw um quarrels with the state of New Mexico and the outfitter set asides and and kind of how that's ran was was the right time and place to kind of put that out. And we had been approached by you know various media outlets in the state of New Mexico and working with game commissions and kind of talking to different lobbyists, you know, like uh the Wildlife Federation, you know, and kind of just different public land entities and how this impacts outfitters. And we were kind of one of the only outfitters that spoke up in favor of you know dismantling the outfitter system and the outfitter set aside, um, which was a big shock to people, I think. But um it was an important topic, and and so we put that out, and that's what you heard and and and drew a lot of similarities from what you guys are dealing with.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

So um Yeah, so we're we're just starting to see a draw system come into place here in Arkansas. And I I threw out uh kind of an idea coming out of Canada, which would be like a term license. Basically, as it sits in Arkansas right now, a non-resident can come into the state and hunt 60 days in a row if they want to. Um, and I'm not sure that that's uh I'm not sure we can keep up with that you know, pressure. Uh, I just don't know the system's really designed for that. So when you look at these big game states, you know, everyone's like, oh, that's that's un-American, that's this or that's that. I'm like, well, I can't go to New Mexico and hunt their entire season. Matter of fact, I was looking at the website. A lot of y'all's seasons are really short windows anyway. I mean, like some of the early pronghorns a few days, mule deers kind of like that. So if you would walk us through, because that was your primary thing, was the outfitter system and the allocation, the set aside for that. Explain that to us.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Right. So the state of New Mexico is structured on a draw system with no points. So, like other states have points, Colorado has points, Arizona has preference points. Um, and and the way New Mexico is structured is everybody that applies for the draw gets a fair shot at drawing the tag. However, it's broken down into 84% of those tags go to resident New Mexicans. So they they take an allocation of tags and say 84% of them are allocated to residents. 10% of those tags go to outfitters. And here's kind of the kicker: you can be an outfitter in New Mexico without ever being a New Mexico resident, which is something that bothers me. Um, so 10% of those tags will go to outfitters. You know, we're in that pool ourselves, and then the extra 6% just goes to the regular DIY non-residents. So, like, say you wanted to apply by yourself in New Mexico to draw a tag for you and your boys, you would just apply as a DIY non-resident, and you only have a shot at 6% of the tags. So it's very beneficial to you to hire an outfitter because now you're opened up to a 10% pool of tags via contracting with an outfitter. Um, so it gives you a better chance as a non-resident, but it's created this system where it's almost like an outfitter welfare in a sense where anybody like there's so many guys that are now becoming outfitters so they can get in this 10% pool because it almost draws guarantees them drawing clients. So it's it's it's a guaranteed, it's no longer based on your merits of if you're a good outfitter or not. Like, you know, people just want to apply with outfitters for a better shot at drawing a tag, not because the outfitter's good. So it's created a large influx of outfitters from other states and even in New Mexico of very low quality, I dare I say low moral standing outfitters, but that is a that there that is a factual part of it, right? Like um there you you guys are you know well versed in the hunting community, and we know that there's people that do it wrong across the board. Um and and that kind of system to me just fosters that because it's I'm just here to make a quick buck and give someone a better shot of a tag, and I don't really care if they kill a 200-inch bull or a 400-inch bull. I got paid and they chop they shot their elk and they're on to their the next thing and I'm on to the next client. And to me, I've noticed it's created a very just really unfavorable um reputation for outfitters and guides um to where like the good ones who are trying to do it right are just lumped in with the vast majority of the outfitters just trying to make a buck off a buck kind of thing. Um and then it really hurts even deeper when the state of New Mexico has structured a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff. And what I mean by behind-the-scenes stuff is we have this thing for elk specifically, it's unit-wide tags. So these are landowners that don't have large ranches, they have very you know small um parcels of land, and they've you know they've worked with the game of fish and said, hey, the elk destroyed my fences, they destroyed my water, you owe me compensation. So the state has said, okay, we'll give you X amount of tags for your land that you can use on the public unit. So say you got a public unit that the public draw hunter, this the New Mexico resident, has an opportunity at 250 elk tags. So 250 New Mexicans draw, you know, 250 elk tags, but now the state has worked in with these landowners that, oh, we'll give you X amount of unit wide tags to use and sell at your own price, and you profit everything because, you know, a couple elk destroy the fences or messed up your water. And, you know, there is landowners that have legitimate frustrations with elk damage, and the elk are a very large, you know, destructive animal, especially in herds of 80 to 100. Um, but then they turn around and sell these tags for 20,000, 30,000 bucks. No money goes back to the state, no money goes to the conservation of elk. He just goes to the private individual, and then now another private individual gets to go hunt a public entity with 250 guys that thought they were the only 250 guys that drew that tag for that season. So now you've got an influx of guys that paid bought unit-wide, hunting public land with public guys who basically waited however many years it took them to draw this tag. And just because somebody has $20,000, now they just get to jump in the line and automatically have a tag because they have the means to pay for it. And none of that money ever goes back to the state, the the animal, the resource. So it to me, it's like a it's it's it's abusing a public resource for private gain, and there's no compensation that ever goes back to the state. So that's one piece of it. And then we have what's ranch-only tags where it's the ranch only. Um, and so it's a big enough, if there's big enough ranches to get uh an X amount of tags, but they can't hunt public land, they can only hunt the ranch. But then again, they don't really they could sell as many elk tags as they want, so they could deplete that resource really fast if they're not smart. If they're just chasing money, they could deplete their own elk resource really quick. And so it's kind of created this feeling that in the state of New Mexico, the resident hunter is the least prioritized entity in the whole system. Even though they get 84% of the tags, when you shake it all down to the the way the the behind the scenes work with with unit wide, it's they don't actually get 84% of the tags. It's it's a much lower number when you add in all the total elk tags between private land, unit wide, and public tags. It's a it's a lawsuit waiting to happen for the state, which there's been multiple pushes towards that from private individuals who are you know trying to work to make it right. Um, but the draw system in and of itself is a great thing, but it's you know, like anything, things get kind of twisted and manipulated for financial gain, whether it be on the state or private individuals. And then you end up with kind of a debacle of there's a guiding outfitter behind every tree, and there's just not a whole lot of quality happening anymore, and the animals ultimately pay the price for that.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Oh, uh uh every time, every time. You know, and and we see some of that, some similarities to that here, uh, mainly due to the willingness of people now to travel to hunt, fill-in-the-blank species. Um, and and so you've kind of seen the outfitter wave follow it. Um I mean Canada is a great example, the amount of uh Americans that now outfit for waterfowl north of the border. Um and that, you know, they've got a unique allocation system, only so many outfitters can be in a in a in an area, and those, you know, they have to purchase those allocations, and these old timers have gotten out and they sold them to Americans, and now you've got this Americanized outfitting culture up there, which is a lot like what you said. Uh there's guys that do it right, do it for the right reasons, try to try to try to respect you know the sport for what it is, and then you got the ones that are chasing bucks, uh, as in dollars. Uh so uh that always gets wonky when when that kind of situation takes over. But uh have you have you seen you know that rise or that's that elevation of the number of people willing to come to New Mexico to hunt with with that uh willingness to travel that we're seeing right now?

SPEAKER_02 16:13

We have, absolutely. Yeah, I mean I'm I'm sure I would say behind Nevada and Arizona, it's probably your number three destination for elk in the entire United States. Oh well, um and and I would I would say it varies probably between those three states every given year, you know, depending on moisture and food. But even with Pronghorn Antelope, you know, Arizona, New Mexico, one and two every year for world records, and it just bounces back and forth. And so there is this large flux of people for, you know, I style like, man, I didn't realize there were so many people with so much money willing to just throw this much money at animals, but apparently there is. But yeah, it and and then you can watch the you know, not across the board, but there's certain units that are impacted more than others, and you can start to watch the either the population decline or the quality decline. And the one I noticed the most is the overall quality decline of, you know, overall quality of animals between, you know, elk and deer and and antelope, and it's just like, man, like this isn't sustainable, right? Like, and the state's partly to blame because they're they've they've built the systems and they not necessarily created the systems, but they've definitely, you know, facilitated the systems that cause making more money. Like, I I believe the state of New Mexico should cut the allowable outfitter list down to residents only and and no more than 50 to 100, but that could be viewed as an extremist type view. But I do think there's some drastic type measures that need to be taken like that because yeah, there's a lot of people willing to travel to hunt, and the animal can only sustain, you know, the our population of game can only sustain so much. So at what point do we realize we've created a really bad scenario? That again, ultimately the animal pays the price, but nobody wants to forfeit the price out of their own pocket.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

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SPEAKER_01 18:20

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SPEAKER_03 19:08

Yeah, so I had a great conversation with a listener last week. Um and that was kind of his concern with the idea of a term limit or any kind of restriction in Arkansas, even the draw system was that you would in an in a sense discourage people from hunting. You wouldn't recruit new hunters and we would lose conservation funding because people would turn away. And my reply was like, man, I don't know. Like big game hunting is as popular as it's ever been, and the draw systems have been in place out there for a long time. So that was interesting to hear you talk about that in terms of New Mexico. I mean, people are still willing to travel, they're willing to spend the money, and we and when you when you don't build a system out correctly, when you allow for these uh, I don't want to call them injustices, but uh just a circumventation of the draw.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

When you can't draw year after year to year, people start looking how they can circumvent that system within the confines of the laws. Um and I think that's exactly what we have on our hands now is it's really hard to draw non-resident tags for quality animals. And so what do you do? You any smart business person is oh, how do I figure out how to circumvent the system that doesn't allow me to make money to make money? Um, and just because it's legal doesn't mean it's you know ethical, in my opinion, on a lot of it. Uh and the the systems in place, and I I could sit here and be hypocritical and say that, you know, oh, this is terrible, but we've used them because there's systems in place, right? The private land tags, the unit wide tags, the outfitter set aside draw. It's you know, it's you use uh my personal belief is I've used it so that I can find the loopholes and the bad parts about it, so I can go lobby to the state and say, hey, I'm an outfitter and I'm I'm I'm throwing the warning flag here on this. Like I I benefit from the system and I'm telling you we need to change the system. Um, so I feel like that's that's been something we've looked at as because people have asked us, like, well, you use the outfitter set aside, and I'm like, yeah, we do, because that's that's the structure of our draw system right now. But it's also given me a better understanding and I feel better credibility to go to the state and say, hey guys, we got a problem. Like, we need to fix this or we're going to lose what has made our state great because there's too much going on, there's too much happening. We're taking too much off the land and and too many people are worried about who's getting rich instead of are the animals sustained. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 21:35

Yeah. I mean, that's exactly the same situation in Arkansas. It's it's all about who's getting the most, and it's not about is the resource getting what it deserves. Right. Um who has the most access, who's making the most money, you know, you name it. It's a very similar situation, albeit the details are are vastly different.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Right. Yeah, and it's not all doom and It's just like we need to I think this stuff requires more m more thought, you know, conversations drive driven behind what's best for the animal, not what's not what's the most income for the state or the landowner or the outfitter, but what ultimately is the best for the animal. Because if you deplete that resource, then none of us make any money at all.

SPEAKER_03 22:24

Right. And no one, if you deplete the resource, no one gets to enjoy that experience on any level, resident, non-resident, paying a ton of money, paying no money, it it affects everybody. Right. So what would you propose to solve some of the outfitter issues out there?

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Uh so I I've said a bunch of things, and there's there's a lot of like there's a lot of really educated people that have spoken up on behalf of it too, um, that are not outfitters. And I think, you know, being an outfitter does carry some weight on some of it, but I've proposed like, you know, getting rid of the unit wide tags and putting those tags back into the draw. I've said I'm willing to compromise. Like me personally, I think it's a good compromise to say, hey, if you own a ranch and you're managing your elk appropriately, I don't have any problem with you dictating your hunting. Like, I don't have any problem with the state saying, hey, you're ranch only. Here's your tags you can use. We've given you this amount of tags based on your management principles and your, you know, your carrying capacity of the land, and it's up to you to sell them for however you want. And you take that money and you pour it back into your ranch because ultimately your ranch benefits wildlife. But you don't get to hunt public land. You don't get to cut out normal draw hunters. You're specifically hunt your ranch and only your ranch. And, you know, we'll come in every year and do a survey and make sure that you're not, you know, exploiting the resource and the carrying capacity is appropriate. And, you know, I think that's one avenue for private land. And like I said, I'm all about getting completely getting rid of the unit wide, putting those tags back in the draw, and then structuring the draw where you take away the outfitter set aside and you do like an 80%, we'll just say an even number of an 85%, 15% split. So 85% resident, 15% non-resident. Well, then you open up the 15% non-resident to not someone who is going with an outfitter, but just any non-resident. And then that way, if you draw and you're like, hey, I don't really have the money to hire an outfit, I'm just gonna go give it a shot on my own because I drew the tag. But then the next guy draws the tag and says, Oh, well, I have enough money to hire an outfitter. I'm just gonna go hire an outfitter. And they both get the opportunity to decide what they want to do after they've drawn the tag, not on the forefront, you know, like the 10% outfitter pool is where it's encouraged all these just like I call them bottom feeder outfitters to come out of nowhere just to have clients where now the client gets to determine that outfit runs really good, they're a really good business, they they hunt quality animals. They have earned the merit to have me hire them and not just because we have a lot of clients that have hired bad outfitters, and they're like, man, that was a terrible experience, but it drew me a tag. And I'm like, what if you could draw a tag and get a good experience? So it's kind of there's no more like I want it to where it'd be the outfitters are gaining business based on their merit and their credibility and how they run business, not just because they offer, again, a better draw chance. So that that's I mean, that's been one thing I've thrown out there is you know, 8515, and I feel like that's even being generous for non-residents. You know, I feel like there should be um, you know, a lot of people want a 90 10 split, which I think is what Arizona does, where you would be 90% residents and 10% non-residents. Um, but I mean, I like I I've even said, like, I'd be cool with 8515 just to, you know, because I don't I'm a non-resident in every other state, right? Like when I go hunt Colorado or Arizona or Nevada or Montana, I'm a non-resident. So I I like non-resident opportunities. I don't want the non-resident to not have an opportunity. But what I want is the non-resident to be able to have that free market to say, that outfit is really good. I'm gonna hire that outfitter and not be forced to go with any outfitter that's just the the person they happen to apply with because it was better draw odds. Um that's kind of like my yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

That makes sense, yeah. Because they have the tag, then people are ended up going with them. Brent, how do you think that would fly here if we uh if we cut non-residents down to 10% of our license sales? Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Yeah, just just so Ryan's aware, we sell uh as far as duck stamps go, which identify most people that purchase a duck stamp means they duck, you know, they hunt ducks. There's a handful of collectors, but they're they're chasing ducks. Uh we sell it's like 5149 uh non-residents have outnumbered the residents. Uh now, yeah, yeah, keep in mind some of those are just coming for a weekend. Uh, you know, they're gonna they're gonna try it themselves for a weekend, somebody called or they read online that Arkansas's got ducks, they're gonna show up and give it give it a whirl, or they're going with an outfitter for a weekend trip, four or five-day trip, whatever it is, and and they and they they don't step foot back in the state again. But still, right? Uh you you you hear residents talk, especially as it relates to public ground, they're omnipresent. I mean, they're everywhere, and they're the ones that are causing all the issues, and you know, the truth is somewhere in between. I I know there's plenty of residents that that cause issues as well. Plus another it's not unique necessarily, but in the landscape is completely different. We're dealing with a very finite amount of habitat that you can hunt over for ducks that's public. But we used to allow outfitters to guide out out of public ground, and that that went away out of 20, I don't know, when was that early 2000s? Is that sound right? Uh I want to say earlier than that, but I could be wrong. Yeah. Yeah, but uh somewhere in there, yeah. Some give or take. Uh, but that's been gone for a long time. Um, and there's there's people that talk about, man, if it we didn't have that back, there'd be some law and order out there in the in the public woods. I don't know if that I don't know if that'd be the case. So that's a totally different value. I mean, you're dealing with a obviously a very expansive landscape in New Mexico, right? Uh especially and also hunting big game, uh, you know, totally different scenario. But you have, you know, all these people have all these ideas about how we fix all this resident, non-resident thing. Because it's it's it's regardless of what game you're chasing, regardless of where, it's an issue of some sort. Um and then and then you you get you get this dis disapproval of outfitting game. Um, and as you've mentioned, a lot of times that's probably it's probably merited. You got people out there that are just yeah, they're going about it all wrong. Um for the wrong reasons, and and you see it impacted. But nobody's got the solution, nobody's got the fix. Uh to what we'll what will resolve all this, and that's that's kind of where we're stuck in in all these different pursuits.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

What is the um because New Mexico talks about this a bunch to the the small you know economic impact to local communities from non-residents, uh, which I don't always buy it to the to the level that it's sold on the you know the the the side that is all for non-residents, but you know what, what does that look like in Arkansas? I mean, how much does a non-resident hunter coming in for three, four days, you know, boost the the local economy of the the small Arkansas communities?

SPEAKER_03 29:30

I'm interested to hear Brent's opinion on this.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, well, it's I I'm kind of in agreement with you. I think those numbers are kind of inflated. Uh they sound like golly. I mean, how does everybody on the Grand Prairie not drive around a brand new four pickup truck and you know everything else? I mean, you see restaurants closed that don't make it. Um, you see convenience stores that that are gone. I mean, you see all these things in these rural towns that you think this these numbers that they're talking about would just make them thrive, even though it's it's tourism to a degree. Right. I mean, we've got we've got summertime tourism here. I mean, the people come here for the lakes and they spend all this money and so on and so forth. It's the same thing over that that three-month window of waterfowl season. But um it's big business. Uh yeah, it I mean it is to a degree, but I don't know what's the dollars they talk about.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

I I don't think it is. I mean, because you I mean you just take like Hunter, you know, if you've ever driven through Hunter, it's like any other small town in the Delta, it's it's dying, you know, one day at a time. And I don't think duck hunting the winner does anything to prop it up. Um, does it put some money in some landowners or farmers' pockets? Sure, but that just gets spent on fertilizer and chemical and seed and just goes on to some other big business. The same with with you know, take your duck hunters, right? Like gone or the the mom and pop shop where they can go buy ammo. Where do they go to buy ammo? They go to buy Max, or they go to Rogers or or D you know, DNW. And I'm not knocking any of those places, but I think that income, what we're talking about, really affects big business. Does it really help small communities? I don't think so. Not on the scale that they claim it does. And it's funny when you when the non-residents get really upset, that's what they that's the you know, the big wand or the big stick they try to swing around as, oh, these all these towns are going to die up, or I'm not there buying honey buns and coffee. I'm like, well, I don't think your honey buns and coffee are really driving the economy that much. And I'm sure that sounds really smart ass to anyone listening, but I I don't think that it's as big an economic impact as everyone believes. Um I don't think we should disregard it in any way because I look, I've long stood on the ground that I I value non-residents coming to Arkansas. Lots of my friends are non-residents. I really don't want to cut non-residents out, but I don't think they should overvalue themselves, you know, either in that sense. It's not a good argument. And my concern is that when we limit non-residents on state ground, we just push them to the federal ground, right? So that just it just pushes the can further down the road. We're not solving the problem. We're just moving pressure around. And then when we move them to federal ground, okay, now they get tired there, so you go out and buy these leases. And like I've talked to both you guys about, like, I think the days are gone when when a guy and another guy or you know, a couple buddies can go lease a spot and go hunt, it's become such big business. Here we go, back to this big business thing. And Ryan, you and I talk about capitalism being like we are capitalists, but in a capitalist system, you're creating a product, you're a good or a service. And that's not the case here. We're this is going on the back of a resource, and I think we lose track of that. But my fear with all this, I'll try to land the plane here. My fear with all this is that we are moving away from the American model of hunting and we're gonna end up more European. It's gonna be so astronomically expensive and just unattainable because we grant, at least in Arkansas, everybody, so much access. It just the bidding war continues to go up and up and up, and it's it's not feasible for so many people. So uh I probably made 30 or 40 points there, you guys can pick apart. So have fun with that.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

No, I I I I I fully agree. I I think we've drifted so far away from the North American model of wildlife conservation in the name of the dollar that what are we leaving for our kids and our drinkleets on that? Um, and you know, to the economic point, like when you talk to the pro-outfitter and and pro-private land and unit-wide oak tags out here in New Mexico, they make it sound like the non-resident hunters, the only reason why the entire state of New Mexico exists and survives. And I'm like, listen, guys, like the math just doesn't even support that. It's like, you know, the flat earth thought process. Like it just there's so much evidence against it that like, how can you stand here so confidently and say that we will bankrupt the state of New Mexico if we get rid of not the non-resident hunter? And I'm like, for one, nobody's trying to get rid of the non-resident hunter. And two, again, how many burritos at the gas station and and beer and coffee can they buy before they stimulate the economy? You can't convince me that that's stimulating the economy more than our oil field and our defense industry and and you know all the other things happening in New Mexico. I I feel like the non-resident hunt, even hunting in general, is a very small piece of the economic you know, upside to again. Are we gaining enough to justify the exhaustion of a non-renewable resource? Because let's just be real, I I fully believe the wild animal is a borderline non-renewable resource. When we exhaust it, we we've already seen it with the buffalo in the early days, you know, of of the you know, moving west. Like we exhausted an entire species, and it we still have not recovered the you know, the wild American bison because of human beings. And it's like, are we just being naive to the modern society acting like this resource will never be exhausted when again it it I believe it's a you know you can only birth so many calves a year, you know, the deer can only birth so many sawns a year, and if you exhaust the the the water and the land and and make it all about money and expansion and all this, like what are we just repeating history and not even realizing it? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

It's almost impossible not to look at it that way. Uh right. Unless you're just you're just trying to put blinders on and and make money everything. Yeah, well, that and and if you boil it all down to you know a factor, that that's a factor with a lot of that narrative and a lot of that uh stance. And it's not as direct as say an outfitter that's gonna get paid to take somebody hunting. I mean, it people could be in it for a dollar for a lot of reasons. People may say we're in it for a dollar because we we do, we have sponsors to the show. Sure. Um you guys are you know, you what do you you're talking about both sides of your mouth, and yeah, so to speak. I I think you would have a hard time uh pinning either one of us to the point that we're only in this for the money. I mean, it's it's it's a a totally different angle. Um it does allow us to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

If you told me tomorrow that I have to give up my entire business for the survival of the mule deer in my local area, I wouldn't bow deny about it.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

No, no question.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

I think there's a bunch of people like that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

There's not. Uh I I would agree with that for sure. Um, and that's that's tough. And that's that's gonna allow us to burn and churn through a through a resource that um you know it it's not guaranteed to be there forever. Not with your mule deer, not with your elk, not with our ducks. It's just right, it's just not how it works. And and I agree with you completely. We have gotten away from the uh the way the North American conservation model was set up to work. And it is very obvious to me as you get younger, just how far distanced they are from that. Um, my kids are in their their 20s, Cajuns are younger than that, they're not really at the age yet to where they they can figure any of that stuff out. But you talk about kids being involved or thinking conservation forward that are in their 20s and early 30s nowadays. Nah, no, it's it's not even on the radar. And that and that's that's tough. Because it makes you wonder when these when these baby boomers age out, because they're the ones that are really pumping money into this, these, these conservation efforts and standing up for these things. When they age out of the sport or they they pass on or whatever it is, who's gonna backfill that? And and I guess some will come out of the you know, the the Gen X and the Millennial uh and and some of that. But I mean, you just don't you don't see it the same way my friends and I were thinking when we were in our 20s and 30s. It that just they're just a long ways from it.

SPEAKER_02 38:05

Yeah. And I I don't mean I again, it's not to sound like, you know, all doom and gloom, because I I think consumerism is a great thing. I think the amount of money that we're able to bring in for wildlife is outstanding. Like, you know, in in today's modern world, the amount of money we've been able to put to conservation efforts and even putting, you know, wild bighorn sheep back on the mountain through through different efforts and the Mule Deer Foundation and and you know, probably Ducks Unlimited, and everywhere the money goes does good things. But have we kind of lost sight of you know the average guy and what it actually means to go sit in a duck line with your buddies kind of thing?

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Yeah. And that's who's getting squeezed. You're right. You're you are on the money there. It's the the the DIY, the do-it-yourselfer, the the guy that wants to take his his son hunting or or you know, grandpa and grandson, all that, they are every season that goes by, they're finding less and less opportunity and definitely quality experience. Right. Situated along the renowned Big Creek Flyway between DeWitt and Ethel, Arkansas, this 162-acre two-track hunting property offers an exceptional combination of prime waterfowl hunting and quality deer hunting in the heart of one of the most productive duck corridors in the region. The property boasts a diverse and dynamic wetland habitat, featuring a rich mosaic of cattails, willows, cypress trees, and buckbrush that naturally attract and hold ducks throughout the season. Whether you're chasing mallards or managing deer, this property delivers on both fronts. For more information, visit laurelestate.com or call us at 501-374-3411. The Standard Sportsman is brought to you by Perfect Limit Outdoors, the creators of the designated Puller Automatic Jerk Rig. This is one product creating motion throughout your entire decoy spread. Check it out at perfectlimitoutdoors.com and make the water move.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

So, Brent, I think I heard some feelings with the you know the idea of the term limit uh term license the other day. I'll ask both of you guys, Ron, you've got some experience out here. Two other things that I believe pretty firmly in. One, I think you should be a resident to be an outfitter. I think Arkansas needs more structure in their outfitter license. It shouldn't just be for anybody. Now, I do think a non-resident guide should be allowed to work for an outfitter. Like you should be able to draw on different people to fill out your staff. But as far as the person who holds the license, you should be a resident. I also, and this is a big one, uh uh maybe I'll get labeled as a hypocrite for this one, but I think you should own the ground that you're running your outfitting business on. I think that would cut down on people going out and spending six figures for leases and tying up ground that someone else would otherwise have access to at a more reasonable price point if you took all that competition out of that market.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Yeah. It's different. It's a different environment than like we talked about earlier, the expansive landscape. But here, yeah, you're you're finding guys that had a lease for X amount of years, and somebody comes in and wants to play some astronomical dollar just to tie it up, they're out. That ma that that son or that that that dad and his couple of his buddies, they're pushed out and and they're forced back into either giving up the sport or you know, maybe going to public land and they're not really suited to to to do that game. Um it's it's just tough on them right now.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Yeah. Yeah, it is tough. That may be why you've seen that number climb up to 51%, like it has, because sure, you know, so many people are going with outfitters now.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

No doubt. No doubt. That the amount of disposable income to be able to do it, or or and this may be related to you know you know, the mule deer and the elk and the stuff you're chasing out there in New Mexico. There's only so many places you can go hunt mallard ducks uh to uh at a level that you you know feel like this is worth putting money and time and investment in. You can't just do it anywhere. Um and so one of those places you have to travel to do that is Arkansas. For your game, one of the places you have to go do that is New Mexico. So these people that live in states where they have either little to no opportunity to do these things are are they're traveling and they're going. And if they can go multiple uh weekends or multiple weeks out of a season, you know, in our case, because you know you're you kind of reset on your your limit of ducks where you know on big game, you're you kill your one or your two or whatever the limit is, you're you're done. But you kind of see that they basically set up shop here uh and and go at them and until they just can't go at them anymore. And it's because they can't do it back home or they or it's deteriorated back home.

SPEAKER_02 42:48

I I completely don't blame them. And in my viewpoint is the burden of responsibility rests on the state to say, are we doing this the right way, right? Because if right now it's legally set up for those people to do that, why would they not take advantage of it? You know what I mean? To me, the moral obligation is not necessarily on them. It's on the state and the wildlife managers and the biologists to say, hey, we need to fix this because we control the resource. We the the resource is our responsibility, right? It's all of our responsibilities, but from the scientific side, right? I think that that burden of the burden of responsibility rests on these states. And and that's I think I don't blame the non-resident for traveling to hunt, you know. They ought to do it 100%, right? And I agree with you, like it's it's it's such there's only so many places, and everybody wants to hunt this resource that these states gotta figure out like, hey, are we are we prioritizing money? Or and I know I sound like a broken record on the money, but it's part of it, right? Like, but I I don't know, I think the states can do better across the board, and it sounds like Arkansas's kind of in the same boat where you guys are saying, Hey, I'm alert and I'm I'm throwing the flag here, we might have some issues, and I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 43:58

Yeah, I mean it it seems Like, at least for us, uh, this Arkansas only wants to deal with the state ground, they don't look at the state as a whole, it's just what they manage. And I think that really just deflects the problem somewhere else. Uh so I'm curious because we're talking about guys traveling and hunting and all this. Um, how many of your clients draw multiple tags in New Mexico, or how many apply in multiple states and and go on more than one hunt, we'll say.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

A lot of them. There's a lot of guys that'll apply. I mean, we all apply in multiple states. I apply in every western state, right? And some years I'll draw three deer three deer tags in three different states, and it's like, okay. Um, and a lot of guys in New Mexico is kind of hard to draw multiple tags in one season. We'll have a couple guys that'll draw like a deer tag and an elk tag, or they'll draw a deer tag and an oryx tag. There's a few guys that will draw one or two, and that's just luck to the draw. That's there's nothing to there's no science behind that other than their name just got picked more than one time for a different species. Um and a lot of our clientele is usually just kind of a one hunt one hunt a year type of guy, and then the way that the draw is structured out here, they won't draw again for a few years, probably. Uh, we'll average every few years for the same client. Um and and it's I don't know that it's yeah, I I don't I don't know what if the states would if there should be this universal. I kind of have a hard time with an idea. I've thought about it before, like a universal thing of like, do you really need to go kill five mule deer in five different states? Oh no. But I I'd have to look in the mirror and I I've done that. So I'd have to look in the mirror and be like, are you part of the overall problem? But then that runs a very weird line of you know, do you let does that become a federal does does hunting now become a federal thing?

SPEAKER_03 45:53

Right. Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a tough spot. And and so I'll I'll kind of equate it. I think that's similar, Brent, to our early spec season, right? Like you and I both are opposed to it. Um it's been years since I've booked a hunt for our early spec season, but I'll still take my kids. I mean, like I can stand on my soapbox, but I only do so much good for so long. So even though I I feel very passionate, it should go away, it doesn't really do me any good to not go at at all. I mean, so it's yeah, I get where you're coming from. I mean, like, it may not be the best thing, but everyone else on out there is doing it. So it's just kind of the way the game works right now. But I think that paints a big picture to to how not only in big game, but in the same with duck hunting, right? Like duck hunters traveled multiple states up and down the flyway, like they hunt all over. And that is not something that was going on in the 70s and 80s and 90s, like that is a new thing, and I think that's why that's I think it's why you have to limit non-residents. And obviously, the big game industry has done it for a long time. Uh certain a lot of waterfowl states are doing it. Yeah, yeah. Uh it's unpopular when I say it here. And and like I said, my opinion about that just changed recently, but but as hunters, we travel more and we have more impact than we've ever had before, and it's not good for the species.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

No, it's not. And I think just uh the American culture of of our our time now is a over consumption culture where you know there's there's probably a deeper underlying issue to the whole thing anyway, because no one's satisfied with just I don't want to say the bare minimum, but there is a a hundred percent it's just this I feel like this is it's a toxic culture to there's never enough. We can I can never shoot enough ducks, I can never shoot enough deer. And it's it's a weird. I have a hard time with where I've kind of put myself in check of like, man, I'm busy this year. Do I really need to go hunt three different states for deer? Like maybe I'll just hunt one state and be happy with one deer. You know, and you start to kind of try and bring yourself back to reality that what's wrong with just I remember days in my early days where shooting one deer, I was stoked. If I shot one good buck a season, I was excited, and now it's just like, oh, that's not satisfactory. I need to shoot three good bucks, and it's I think that's a societal issue that we've we've come it's all starting to come at a crossroads with hunting too.

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Yeah, we we lose sight of we lose sight of why we do it pretty easily sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 48:29

Yeah, definitely do. But I don't I don't blame anybody for that because I feel like that's just kind of a you know, it's hard to do it.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

It's the evolution of it. I think we just it's a yeah, yeah. We we talked Brent and I talk about that a lot. I talked to the listener the other day about that. Like ultimately at the root of I think of all of these problems is really just the cultural issue. I mean, if we were all able to recognize, hey, maybe I shouldn't go hunt deer in five states, maybe I shouldn't hunt 60 days in a row, you know. If we all practice a little self-restraint, if we weren't so motivated to post, you know, grip and grins, all these things, you know, like then we wouldn't be talking about the things we're talking about. But because we we don't do a good job controlling ourselves, we have these issues. Um yeah, so I think it's just a kind of a cultural issue. But I don't know what the fix is.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

I don't either. I well, I think there's a clear scientific fix, you know, from the biology standpoint of the land only supports so many animals. And you know, it these hunter recruitment processes, while I do want to I don't buy the the sentiment that we're going to lose our hunting rights if we don't recruit more hunters. I don't buy that. Um I just don't. And and it's been pushed to me a lot, the whole, you know, uh, what is it? There's an acronym for it, but the recruitment, the the the you know, the retention, the recruitment and R3. R3, yeah, yeah. Um and while I agree with, you know, getting new people into hunting, and I I I it's it's actually one of my passions to take a brand new hunter hunting, especially in their adulthood, where they're like, man, I've just discovered this and I want to eat better meat because it's healthier for me, and I don't want to eat what the store is giving me, and I want to become a hunter because this is just a more you know sustainable, healthy lifestyle, the way I see it. And I don't want to be reliant on the supermarket, and I'm like, man, I love that idea. But at the same time, it's I I don't know, I don't know what the right answer is. Is that if all of America decides to, and this is where I pick on, you know, I I won't get political because I lean neither left or right, you know. Um, but I have some really hard conservative friends that they're like, everyone should hunt. And I'm like, well, if everybody in America hunted, you realize that like we probably couldn't hunt. Like we'd be lucky if we all got a deer a year, if that was the case, right? So be careful what you ask for because I understand the sentiment from that that that perspective of we should all be not reliant on the government and everybody should be able to provide for themselves. And while I agree with that and I understand it, like I still fall in the moderate lane of like, well, what if we did do that? What if every single American shot a deer every year? Is there enough deer for all of us? I don't know. There's a lot of Americans these days, and there's a lot of whitetail, but there's dang sure not enough mule deer for that. So I mean, if I if you took Arizona, for example, I bet there's more people in Metro Phoenix than they're all than all of the mule deer in all of Arizona. So what happens if all of Phoenix wanted to be deer hunters? We come into another whole other issue really quick. So I just struggle with the the recruitment of of new hunters because the resource isn't there. I don't, I don't, you know, like to me, I feel like that's an easy scientific look through all of that to say, hey guys, like yeah, maybe let's not add, you know, X amount of hunters a year because we we're inducing problems for ourselves. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

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SPEAKER_03 52:42

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SPEAKER_01 53:11

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SPEAKER_02 53:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

If if somebody from New Mexico that had never hunted ducks before came to Arkansas and tried to hunt ducks, their uh probably their success level would be pretty low.

SPEAKER_02 54:00

We'd be still standing on the boat ramp because we don't have boats. So Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:03

So but what has changed in in this this window of time with all these people willing to travel is they can go with an outfitter and they'll find success. Somebody's gonna put them in front of whatever whatever they're chasing. And that's diff that's a different point in time. So if yeah, if you you keep adding people, whether they're a complete novice or they're just okay at it, you're not saying everybody's gonna dump into the sports, gonna be an expert killer, you know, from the from the from the jump, but they can they can now stroke a check and go be a shooter in a blind or a shooter um you know out there in the in the wide open spaces of New Mexico and have success and take an animal out of the equation or animals out of the equation that previously probably would have survived and would have moved on. Yeah, yeah. Because you're because you're starting to elevate these numbers. And you see a bunch of states where their numbers are dropping like flies, but they're especially in duck hunting, but you're seeing them reroute themselves. They may not hunt at home anymore, but now they've purchased land in Arkansas and they and they come however many weekends or weeks a year they want to come. Um, or they buy hunts and they go and have uh probably for the most part pretty good days afield. And that's I it makes you wonder whether that's even in the the mindset of of people making the rules and setting setting seasons and limits and quotas and all of these things, just to understand the high level of success someone that's not even very skilled at a particular sport can have now, at this, at this very point in time. I mean, Canada, waterfowling in Canada is a great example. There's people that go up there and kill more ducks in a four or five-day trip than they kill the entire 60-day season they have back at home.

unknown 55:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:55

Because so somebody can put them in front of ducks, and that's that's what happens.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Yeah, and I I do believe, I mean, I think the quotas are some sort of a checks and balances, right? Like, you know, you look at if you take New Mexico, for example, and you look at certain units and certain species, the percentage of successful hunts, right? Like when people do their harvest reports, because New Mexico, anytime you kill an animal, you then got to go back after the season and do a mandatory harvest report to say, hey, I hunted X amount of days, um, I killed this animal, it was, you know, this many points on the antler. And it kind of gives the department an opportunity to build their um harvest reports and their you know successful harvests. And I don't think it's kind of a weird thing because while I feel like the resource is somewhat becoming exhausted, I don't feel like there's been a massive jump. It's not like hunts have gone from a 30% success rate to a 90% success rate. They seem to have stayed pretty similar, but I think the resource is still exhausted. And it's like, well, why is that? And a part of me wonders, I think that we've just you've got some people that are chasing premier age-class animals, but I think the vast majority of the public land hunters, to your point of it becoming a pay-to-play system now, a lot of these guys don't ever know when they're gonna hunt an elk again. They don't know when they're gonna draw another elk tag. So they're shooting the first two-year-old bull they see. Well, now we've got the statistics haven't really changed of harvest success. But instead of, you know, a 30% harvest success with eight-year-old bulls, we've got a 40% harvest success of two-year-old bulls. And now we've really hampered the age class, but it that's just the data is skewed because it doesn't look like there's been that many more successful people. Um, and then uh obviously just the basics of you know, the United States is growing, you know, from a you know, overall infrastructure standpoint, right? Where there's less public ground, there's less native areas for wildlife, we've expanded so much so that you know, do they have the ability to reach age class as quick as they used to? Not as quick. I mean, it still takes the same, you know, seven to eight years for a bull, but with you know, younger bulls getting shot because now the you know the the just normal average means individual is like, well, I don't know when I'll ever get an elk tag, so I'm not gonna pass that bull. Or I'm not gonna pass that young two-year-old mule deer because I may not ever draw a tag again, or it may be five years before I drag it, draw a tag again. That's where like I I feel like the data is huge and we're not seeing the bigger picture of overall, you know, age class management, at least for I don't know how that I have no idea how that applies to ducks. I wouldn't even be able to tell you how them how old a duck is without a band. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Well, I so I was listening to you talk about that because we manage age class with whitetails, right? So I'm sitting there thinking about it. Like with ducks, it's the opposite. I think our big issue we have with ducks, um, when we talk about pressure, we talk about how they respond to it. People talk about how hard ducks are to kill late in the year in Arkansas. Well, we've killed all the young ducks, and that's really what we want to hunt. We want to hunt the young ducks because they're they're dumb. They're gonna they're gonna decoy, they're gonna act right. But so many of those birds are getting killed in Canada, they're getting shot over spinners, you know, they're getting killed along the border. We're starting earlier in the year, you know, the list is long as to why you're starting to see some distribution differences there in age classes. But I think it's interesting that it's kind of the same point. It's it's like the third rail of management. Like no one's really diving into how do we manage age class structure really well. It's more about you know, R3, right? Like, are they having a good time? Are they killing stuff? That's all that matters. And I think R3 has a place. Um, I think it's important. But I also think uh I get into this discussion a lot. I feel like if we just manage for the resource, people would want to go hunt. If the if the experience was good and the quality was good, they'd want to go. Trying to maximize, you know, oh, well, look, these many people can go hunting for this many days. Well, that's great, but if they don't see anything or kill anything, it's not any fun. So like we've kind of emphasized the wrong thing, at least in the waterfowl world, and sounds kind of similar in your world too.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

No, I was gonna say the waterfowl world is super intriguing because I I'm not, you know, the occasional we we have a lot of waterfowl out here, and we got you know sandhill cranes, and um we don't have a ton of mallards, so it's it's it's one of those things where like I I've always just been so curious, and when I went out there to your place, it was wild to me. Like, even just anywhere in Arkansas, it's like, oh, they're all greenheads, all of them everywhere. You know, we're we're just used to the random, like there'll be, you know, 10 ducks cup up, and eight of them are all a different species. It's like, oh uh, and you never know what you're gonna get out here because it's just yeah, like 80 miles from the Mexican border, there's there's a lot of random ducks out here. There's some really cool ducks, but I've never seen so many of the same species of duck until we were there at your place.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:14

And I thought that was super cool. What do you guys kill out there? That's interesting to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:18

Uh, there's a lot of spoon bills, um, and then a uh there's quite a bit of pintails, actually, like I was telling you. Like there's there's a lot of pintails out here, but a lot of um the what do you guys call the spoon bills? I I know you guys called them something else. The oh there's yeah, Rams, Hollywood. There's a lot of we have a lot of uh a lot of widgeon and and um I've killed some um redheads out here. There's I've seen quite a bit of redheads out here.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:47

Brent, what's your favorite nickname for widgeon? Um Ryan, I heard it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

I don't know. I'd have to think on that one. We just don't see them like we used to. Uh no, we don't couple a year.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

Yeah, we have a ton of teal too. We have uh uh an insane amount of teal out here.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

Yeah, the the teal seem to seem to be pretty prevalent, regardless of where you are.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:14

Yeah, yeah, I I do love shooting teal. Does uh does anybody out there call witchon uh cotton tops? Yeah, that's what we all call them. Not as original as I thought it was.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

A lot of us are out there with the Google up, like, all right, which one is that? Before we, you know, try to look at them in binoculars, like, oh, which one's that? Yeah.

unknown 1:02:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

We all use binoculars when we duck on out here. So you can see them coming from forever away. Because we don't have timber.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:45

That's that's wild to think about. Yeah, makes sense. I mean, a little Arkansas is really open too, but I bet your your point of view is probably better than ours. Yeah. It's fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

I mean, it's we just have, you know, like in the central now, the north central part of the state on the Rio Grande can get really good. And there's a lot of mallards up there. Um, but down south where we are, there's not a, you know, um, what's the Mexican duck? Is it the black duck? The one there's there's one that looks like a mallard, but it's like brown.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:13

Um there's a model duck, there is a Mexican mallard, and then there's a black duck, and they're all three different. And I'll be honest, Brent, we may have stumbled across a model duck at some point in time in my life. I I don't know that I could identify one.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

I I would agree. I would agree. I'm sure I'm sure we have, but I wouldn't be able to tell you. It just, yeah. I've taken it.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:34

I see people talk about them and be like, oh, that's right. Yeah. I I don't know that I would even I don't know that it would even flag anything in my radar to to even pay attention to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

A lot of spoon bills. There's a whole bunch of spoon bills out here.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:49

Yeah. Survivors. Man, they've they've gotten smarter in our part of the world. I swear 20, 30 years ago, they flew like teal and you could kill them left and right. But uh, I guess everybody times have gotten lean. Everybody's shooting spoon bills, and uh they're getting tough to kill.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

Yeah, it's uh inversely related to the you know, the mallard. The decline in the mallard has led more people shooting at those spoon bills, and they they've gotten smarter. I would agree. They've gotten tough. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:17

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:18

Well, Ryan, I appreciate you coming on and kind of sharing some insight. I I I found it fascinating how two totally different I call it industries, uh, share so many parallels in in terms of management and what's going on with it. So I definitely appreciate your time today.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

Absolutely. Yeah, it's been fun. Yeah. And again, I I hope it doesn't sound all doom and gloom. I just I think that we can do better.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:42

Um I think we're used to doom and gloom on this podcast, aren't we, Brent?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:45

Well, at times people think that's all it is. Some there's a few that think that that's all it is, but yeah. But we're we're the same. I we we can, we we can do better. Uh yeah, there no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:58

No, I just I I really appreciate the invite, and because it's a totally different world for me. And and just to be able to kind of explain what we're up against too, you know, might might draw some parallels for somebody to be like, oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:10

Yeah, I think so. I I think that's the eye opener, hopefully, for a lot of people listening, um, even if some of your friends in the audience kind of catch some of this, like just that that in two totally different worlds, we're we're kind of fighting the same battles and the same struggles. And that's should be should be telling or revealing about us as humans that it's us. We're we're the problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:37

You know, a culture of excess. What can you do?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

That's right. Yeah, that's a good point. All right, man. Well, I appreciate it. We're gonna get out of here. Thank you all for tuning in. Yeah, you can find us online at the standardsportsman.com or anywhere you get your podcasts.