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The Standard Sportsman
Lifelong Arkansas waterfowlers Brent Birch and Cason Short discuss duck hunting's past, present, and future with various thought-provoking leaders in the duck-hunting community. The guys will discuss days afield, waterfowl conservation, and stewardship with the goal of leaving the sport of duck and goose hunting better than they found it.
Presented by Yeti, Tom Beckbe, Lile Real Estate, Sitka Gear, Purina Pro Plan, and Ducks Unlimited.
The Standard Sportsman
First Day of Fall Rundown
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Recorded as the first real north wind of fall reached the end of their flyway, Cason and Brent tackle several hot topics in the duck hunting world. They begin with an update on the Buy Two Duck Stamps campaign as momentum builds toward duck season. With Prairie Pothole Region wetland easements again facing scrutiny from the USFWS, hunter-funded habitat conservation remains as important as ever. The guys also examine President Trump’s executive order addressing traditional lead ammunition and share some history while explaining why lead shot remains prohibited for waterfowl hunting. They close with a discussion of the Open Fields Doctrine, recently in the news in Arkansas and Pennsylvania.
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Welcome to the Standard Sportsman Podcast, where duck and goose hunting's hottest topics meet a mission to leave the resource better than we found it. Lifelong Arkansas hunter conservationist Kasten Shark and Brent Burch bring you thought-provoking conversations with insightful guests before, during, and after the season. Glad you're here. Let's get into it.
SPEAKER_01Hey, it's Brent and Caton back with another edition of the Standard Sportsman Podcast. We are recording on the first official full day of fall, and it actually feels like it. Uh a little bit of a wind shift overnight, and you woke up this morning and it wasn't the oppressive uh heat that we've been dealing with for obviously quite some time here in the south, but it was cool enough. You got your uh your rifles out and and did a little work uh sighting those things downrange a little bit. Yeah, I've been waiting on it for a while.
SPEAKER_02Um, you know, I I tend to push the envelope a little bit. So a lot of my loads are definitely not developed around 90 to 105 degree heat. So I've been waiting on a cool morning, and I'll tell you what, um, I know it's not accurate, but I I think sometime over the weekend the thermometer in my truck showed like 115, 119 or something sitting in the sun. I know that's not how hot it was, but it was the hottest it showed all summer. And this morning it was like 67 and felt pretty dang cool. Big, big shift from the weekend.
SPEAKER_01It really was. It was uh it was a welcome, welcome sight. My dog appreciated. You know, I've I've still been still been working him a little bit, but you have to, I mean, you have to do it in such a short little window and and before the sun comes up. And and today he he even had a little different pep in his step. Like he he realized, hey man, this is this is not too bad. Uh I know there's people out there that you know probably push their dogs a little farther than they need to be, but um he's just so he's so regimented and relentless about retrieving bumpers that I gotta give him a couple. Uh but you know, a morning like today, you actually do a little something uh for a little bit longer period. So yeah, cool weather's welcome. I hope it's not that not that it's so cool that it's the false fall that we always get, but uh I would sure be okay if it stayed like this for a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just don't don't get back into the triple digits. That's all I ask.
SPEAKER_01No, no, that's uh that's brutal. That's brutal. Well, I thought we would uh to to start this, maybe update a little bit on the the two duck stamp campaign, uh just because it seems like we've hit a it may appear that we've hit a little bit of a lull with this, but we actually uh, you know, we mentioned on the show a few weeks ago that we wanted to uh leverage some of the brands, Chris Aerol, with the idea that hey, we should do some drawings, prove you bought two duck stamps, and we'll do some drawings with some of the products because we've had this overwhelming support by so many of the brands uh in the waterfowling space that uh yeah, it was a great idea. And you've talked to a handful and they were on board. But then we start looking into it and and talking to a few people about it. And Arkansas's got some pretty strict lottery slash raffle slash sweepstakes rules that we actually had Robert Riley, who was a guest uh you know, a couple shows ago, who is an attorney uh and been way helpful on a lot of this stuff related to what we're trying to do. And uh he actually worked with the Department of Finance Administration here in Arkansas and got us a letter granting us to run a sweepstakes with this, even though we're making zero dollars, uh, no other, no other incentive to do this other than to to support the ducks. And uh it still fell in in the um, I guess in the in the uh lane of you can't do that. So we had to get the okay from the uh State Department of Finance Administration and and and Robert was a big help in getting that done. So we've got that done. Now we're organizing how we're gonna do it. So it may be a few more weeks before you see something uh out of this, but uh the two duck stamp campaign is not dead. I hope people are still going out and getting them as their seasons are starting, uh, because you got people shooting the I don't even know if you have to have one for to shoot resident geese. I've seen a lot of people doing that. I saw a guy the other day on some lake and there was a pontoon boat going behind him, and they have they had shot a pile of uh resident Canada geese. But um, but anyway, you know, till season, all those things are popping up. So um you've you've got an ability to go out and buy a stamp, but you can go buy that second stamp anytime you want to. It doesn't have to be the day you get your license and your state duck stamp and everything else. So anyway, uh that was just a quick update on on all that because it's been a little bit of a uh kind of a whirlwind trying to get this sorted out and uh really appreciate Robert's help.
SPEAKER_02Uh for sure. With my background and and degree in construction, that was not something I ever thought I needed to know anything about or was aware that it was even uh an issue. So definitely kind of came out of left field for me. I'm glad somebody pointed that out. That would have been unfortunate to get wrapped up in something illegal, trying to do something as innocent as raise money for conservation. But alas, looks like we got it squared away. Now we're uh we got to follow up on all the brands that wanted to jump on. We had several right out of the gate that wanted to get involved with some stuff and some prize packages. So uh it's gaining some momentum. Um I'm glad we got over that hurdle and now we can uh we can execute this thing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, because I mean people always like free stuff, and if it costs you $25 to get a pretty decent prize package from uh you know a notable brand or a or a quality product, I mean it'd be worth every every bit of that. But we we also had I forgot to mention we also had some um third parties reach out and how can they get it in front of their customers. So uh Flyway Brewing, uh which is here in Arkansas, there's one in Memphis. They're gonna put some tabletop um deals, obviously. Flyway, the brand, it's it's got a duck hunting or a duck tie-in. A lot of their beers are named after ducks and and all of that, and the decor in each of the breweries and the tap rooms are are uh playing off ducks too. But they're gonna put some tabletop deals with a QR code to scan uh to buy you know a second duck stamp. And then uh DW Outdoors in Jonesboro, which is a sporting goods store, pretty sizable sporting goods store in that part of the world. Um, they're gonna do some posters all over the store for uh the season and everything else. So any of the brands that that have participated or come on board as a supporter, if you hear this and you're interested in doing something like that, uh don't hesitate to reach out. We can we can do that so easily uh and and just kind of blast this thing everywhere uh for this this season and and hopefully future seasons.
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SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I would encourage everyone who's listening to to pay attention to who gets involved. We talk a lot here on the show about you know, brands and narratives that get kind of pushed. Um, so this is our chance as consumers to pay attention to the brands that are that are pushing that conservation message uh and then try to reward them with our business. So um pay attention. There are some good ones getting involved, and and it's it's gonna be a good deal and hopefully something that grows year by year.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I it it it should. I think people are understanding that. Uh and and uh I'll lead go ahead and lead in because this plays right into another topic we want to talk about a little bit before we kind of get into our main topic. But uh, you know, a press release came out yesterday from the Department of Interior that they're gonna sit down and go through you know these easements with uh with the North Dakota farming uh industry to uh try to update, understand, modernize uh all kinds of angles that they're taking. But you know, there was a there was a lot of belief that the the whole uh drain tile easement setback uh comment period where they you know they came out and said, we're gonna, you know, that's that's good enough. We heard we hear you, we're not gonna do anything now. Well, apparently now has passed because now they're back on it again. And and we we said on the show that this deal's not over. If you really read how that was worded, and then you had a senator from North Dakota that really had a burn a saddle over it, um it's it's back around to where the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Department is going to uh kind of listen to both sides with a little more intensity and and see if where they can land. So um, I don't know. They if you tie it back to these two duck stamp deals and it gets into a situation where you gotta maybe modernize what you paid for some of these easements, that that money, maybe that money comes in handy. We we talked about that before on the show, too. That I mean, all the dollars can go towards this effort. Uh it may be more important than ever because there's a lot of things at play that um may uh may put some of this these easements in jeopardy. And I don't think it means they're gonna wipe them off the earth, but you could see them shrink. Um and and that's you know, that's something that um it sounds like is on the table.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, well, you you look at just that term shrink, right? I mean that's where we're at with duck hunting right now, it's death by a thousand cuts. It's not that well, I don't want to say it's not that anything's just been totally plowed up and taken away. There's been a whole bunch of that. But it's it's every time, you know, any of these any of these ponds, you know, they they shrink by a foot or two foot every year, you know, and and I know I know any water for them to rebound, but I also know that that once they're tiled and once they're farmed, you know, those aren't coming back. So yeah, it's death by a thousand cuts. And this is a great opportunity uh not only through what we did with the EU the first time around as far as signing all that, you know. If everyone shows out and buys a whole bunch of duck stamps this year, suddenly that that voice gets a lot louder from the hunting community and carries a lot more weight. Um, so I again cannot encourage enough for everyone to go out and get two stamps uh or more. Two is not the maximum. You can buy as many as you want, but uh make your voice be heard because that's what it's gonna take.
SPEAKER_01You're you're exactly right. And this press release even references at the end that these was paid for by duck stamps. So uh it's almost like it almost comes across as it's like a hint, like uh we we need uh sportsmen if you're if you're interested in standing up for this, you you know, you show show your uh or put your money where your mouth is. I mean for 25 bucks. I mean, come on, it's pretty easy. Um so anyway, uh I thought that was interesting timing-wise, that uh you know, a lot of people will seem to believe that that was a done deal, and it is it is not. Uh so you know, kind of keep your head keep your head on a swivel because um that is there's some there's some things still in play that are not gonna work out so great for a duck if if it goes too far the wrong way.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't and I don't think it's going away. I never really did, you know. I think the wording on the the release after the first round was we don't need anything else right now, or no further action is needed currently, you know. The writing was kind of on the wall. And I get it, the other side's not giving up. They're they're committed in their opinions as well. As word this carefully. I guess as they should be, you know, they're they're looking at their livelihood and their ground and how they see it, and I don't blame them for being passionate. Uh it's tough, it's tough to make conservation important. I know it is to you and me and probably all of our listeners, but when it comes to dollars and cents, uh, you know, when conservation's cutting into your bottom line, I understand why those people are motivated. I understand why they care. Um, and really I I think I would lay some of the blame at our own government. You know, we we fund all sorts of nonsense. Why we're not funding conservation better is beyond me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, that's uh that's a uh not a point of contention, but it's definitely a it's definitely an issue. Uh there was some studies I've seen here lately. I I can't remember where I saw it, but it was also related to you know how the the federal federal lands have deteriorated due to lack of funds and lack of staffing. And of course, lack of staffing is always related to lack of funds. Uh first thing that gets let go a lot of times is people. Uh, because people are expensive. If you've ever ever managed, ever manage people or a company, you know that uh people can be your biggest expense by a long ways. So uh anyway, uh yeah, the those dollars and relying on the federal government or the state governments to to prop up your hunting is is just not it's not working out that great. Uh and and despite all the things that President Trump read, you know, a week or so ago related to, you know, uh citizens and you know being outdoors and enjoying all those things, you you could tell it was it was done, but he didn't have a lot of conviction in it. He didn't even understand a lot of it. Um so you you've got an administration that maybe appears to be behind a lot of things, but when it comes down to it, probably not. Um so that's where why we have to be uh organized and and vocal and and uh and really showing up, otherwise somebody else is gonna take that role and and maybe reduce or take some things away from us that we'd sure be uh in a bad spot if if that if that ends up happening. Situated along the renowned Big Creek Flyway between DeWitt and Ethel, Arkansas, this 162-acre two-track hunting property offers an exceptional combination of prime waterfowl hunting and quality deer hunting in the heart of one of the most productive duck corridors in the region. The property boasts a diverse and dynamic wetland habitat, featuring a rich mosaic of cattails, willows, cypress trees, and buckbrush that naturally attract and hold ducks throughout the season. Whether you're chasing mallards or managing deer, this property delivers on both fronts. For more information, visit Lowrillestate.com or call us at 501-374-3411. Waterfowl Management Academy helped me stop guessing and start managing my duck property with confidence. Membership gives you 14 plus hours of foundational courses, a growing content library, direct access to wildlife biologists, and real-time newsletters. Visit Waterfowlmanagement.com, click sign up here, and choose your membership and start building a better wetland today.
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SPEAKER_02I'm curious. Um it's not coming to waterfowl to the best of my knowledge, but you never know because, you know, I I'm not gonna make fun of anyway, not gonna make jokes. You never know what that's gonna be said or happen next. Um but what were your thoughts about the lead discussion? And and I'm curious because I saw, you know, God bless AI, but you see the these posters that are written up and drawn that basically I think it was uh the only reason they banned lead shot was because no one, no other gun manufacturer could compete with Browning's Auto 5. I'm like, man, you know, Meroku barrels were already in production and were still still safe before that happened. So maybe you do some more research before you make that claim. Anyway, I'm I'm curious what you think. And I'm there's I'm going somewhere with this, but uh overall I just want your thoughts at first.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think it was uh I I think it wasn't a clear message that was delivered. Uh you know, it was kind of broad in statement, and I think it would have helped maybe squash a lot of that. Um I don't know if it's confusion or even you know, jump into those those kind of conclusions on it just because it was it was thrown out there as such a broad statement. I mean, that's kind of how I kind of took it.
SPEAKER_02I mean, because I I do understand it in some sense, and I I may offend some listeners and and I, you know, I haven't done a ton of research on fishing tackle or things like that. You know, I I can say in terms of lead poisoning, I w I witnessed it firsthand. I I remember seeing it as a kid, and it it was pretty devastating, and the and the number of birds that we were losing to it was substantial. I also remember the craziness of the lead ban. You know, at first we had hot counties where you couldn't shoot it. Well, our farm lays in two counties, so in some fields we could and some fields we couldn't. It was just kind of chaos. But but I don't I mean, I don't know. Do we really need a ban lead and fishing tackle? Is is this a substantial thing that we're dealing with, or or is that more of a for I'll say tree hugger for lack of being able to come up with a better term right now. Is is that more of those people pushing that narrative, or is it something that's serious in the fishing community? Because I know like you hear the argument all the time. Okay, I can go, I can hunt dove, or I can hunt squirrel in a refuge. And I guess a lot of places that was that they made them shoot steel shot to do that. So there's a lot of overlap. I I guess a lot of people are angry one way or the other. Do you have any thoughts on it?
SPEAKER_01I you know, I I'm the same as you. I don't know enough about the fishing side. Uh, you know, I like like to fish, fish quite a bit. I don't know those ins and outs of that kind of stuff. Obviously, I'm not as ingrained in that world as I am with ducks, so I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Um it almost feels like sorry to cut you off, it almost feels like it was kind of pushed in a lot of areas, maybe it didn't belong, and now you're seeing that push back. Maybe, maybe not. But I did see something interesting. Um kind of a friend of ours and then a listener of our show were getting into a discussion about the study on mortality rates. Have you seen did you see that discussion? I know I didn't send it to you, but did you you know what I'm talking about? I've seen I've seen some of that, yeah. Okay. And basically the mortality rate was like four percent. And in this discussion, I'm not gonna cite this as being fat because I did not check it, but I want to say hunter harvest was say around 10%. Does that sound about right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Nine to ten percent. But essentially this person's argument, and I kind of agree with him, if you tell us that nine to ten percent hunter harvest doesn't matter, remember, harvest doesn't matter. You've been beat over the head with it. Tell me why four percent mortality to lead poisoning does matter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I can't and in the discussion, I mean, you know, uh insults are being hurled, nobody would actually answer the question. And I finally was like, look, I I think this is all he's asking. If this number is insignificant, why does this number substantially lower? Why does it matter? Is it a combination of the two? Like, and I'm not suggesting we go back to lead shot, not at all. Because I again our our rate would have been a lot higher than four percent, you know. So it was I I felt like pretty it left enough of a mark on me that close to 40 years later I remember it. But if it was four percent nationwide, what somebody help me there? If somebody knows, send us a message.
SPEAKER_01Well, it's yeah, and you've seen you've seen this same argument uh that a hunter, you know, a hunter or hunters have brought up regarding if if a duck dies by say a raccoon or a you know some other predator, what what's different about that than being shot by a hunter? I mean, is it is it a different kind of dead? Uh it kind of gets into that argument. But yeah, I would I would guess, just off the top of my head, and it's a total guess. I'm guessing the combination of the two. And if you know you can reduce some of that inadvertent, but you get into that whole same argument steel versus lead that you don't know how many ducks or geese are leaving after you shoot that fly off a couple miles and die. I mean, because they they weren't they weren't hit with you know enough impact that led. Oh, Leb would have killed that duck in the decoys versus this crappy steel shot, allowed him to fly off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well, I I bet Pauline could share some light on that because I can tell you, at least on the transmitters we deployed, very few actually got reduced to possession, but a whole dang bunch flew off a half a mile behind a blind you could see on Google Earth. Yeah. So I mean you know it happens. Yes. You know what happens. And it's not it's not just geese. They're an easy target, but it happens to ducks too. Let's not kid ourselves.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Geese are just the ones that that come to me because you know I and I've been on them, and you you know, most people, if you watch a YouTube video of a specklebelly hunt or a snow goose hunt, it's it's a lot of spray and prey, you know, big groups, lots of guns, uh everybody going to the plug, uh, and you only see X amount of geese fall. But you gotta think how many took took some hits out of all that that ended up being um you know catastrophic to them as they they flew beyond the tree line and you didn't see. Um probably happens on you know, big wad of teal comes in and everybody just fast as they can go. Oh man, we only shot down we only knocked down two. You know, one of those kind of deals. But how many of them took the hit? But it's the same. It's it's uh it would be interesting to compare that uh if somebody could do a real test of okay lead shot would have done this to that duck, steel shot did this. What's the difference between that and this duck eating lead off the bottom of this rice field as it's pecking around for food? Right.
SPEAKER_02And before someone clips a little sound bite out of this whole episode, I'm not lobbying to go back to shooting lead shot, but no, no. If that study has been done, I'd like to see it. To my knowledge, it it has not. I I haven't heard about crippling rates. I'm sure someone has looked into it. If not, then shame on us for not doing that. Um but I mean I would agree with you, and and a lot of people made that argument over the years that the crippling rate went up substantially. So, you know, does that 4% become 2%? Right if if you if you factor the increased crippling rate of steel. Um and again, if we I'm not gonna say we, I'm not part of the science community, if the science community has not does not have those numbers and hasn't looked into it, then why haven't we? Uh I mean, because you look at the cost of living right now and you look at the cost of steel shot alternatives, you know, there's gonna be a lot more steel shot this year than there has been in the past. You know, people that were willing to pay for a premium shell with more lethality are are going backwards. And yeah. I I don't want to go back to lead unless you can you can show me numbers that say that it's not as bad as what I remember it being.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, there I I just sit here in front of the computer and I did Google it crippling rate of steel shot, and there was a study done, but it's it's pretty dated. Uh, but it was roughly, it says that the crippling rate for steel historically runs moderately higher than lead, roughly 15% to 27% of birds hit being left crippled because the steel shot is less dense and sheds energy faster at longer ranges. And that was by the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies. But the the study's from 1985. So steel shot has come a long ways. That was pre pre-ban, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. Yeah, steel shot has come a long way. I that I would say you could just throw that study out the window.
SPEAKER_01Uh well, I I would think so too. Um, because yeah, I mean a modern day steel shot, even the the not so great stuff. I mean, every brand, well not every brand, I shouldn't say it, because we have a lot of smaller um shot shell manufacturers now that make you know, all this stuff's kind of a medium to high-end quality. But you have, you know, you take some of the bigger brands, they have low-end stuff and they have high-end stuff. And even the low-end stuff is probably better than the best stuff you could have gotten back when we switched to steel shot only.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and and to dive into that a little bit, what we had to do was figure out payloads and velocities, right? So if you go down in mass, you've got to go up in velocity to retain the same energy. You you can't do a lot for retaining it down range because it's going to bleed it off quicker. But we also had to get into um like wad design shot cup and how we had to cushion that a little bit to keep those loads from opening up. There were a lot of hurdles to overcome beyond just the energy deficiency. It was, you know, pattern size and chokes and all these other things, too. Um say that to say it is substantially better than it was in '85, but still, steel shot is steel shot. You know, premium, middle of the road, or or I'm not gonna name any other any brands there. Uh, you know, even the cheap stuff that you used to get at Walmart, it's still it's still steel shot. You can't make it what it's not.
SPEAKER_01No, that's it. That's it. I did I did it also look to when we had to switch to steel and it was 91-92 season. So yeah, that study was mostly done 10 years before this was even became a thing. So um, yeah, I agree with you. I'd I'd throw that out.
SPEAKER_02Man, I guess I'm really old. I was thinking it was 87, 88.
SPEAKER_01No. Well, they started to s expand it more, and there started just as you were saying, there were hotspot zones. That even goes back to the 70s, that there were high-impact hotspot zones, is what they're calling them, that you could only shoot steel. You could not shoot lead. And then it started expanding more, 86 through 88, and then in 91 it became a complete nationwide ban on lead.
SPEAKER_02Without looking, I want to say parts of Arkansas fell into that 86 to 88 period. But yeah, because every time I hear that the nationwide was in the 90s, I'm like, I don't remember it being that way. Yeah. But it's I've slept a lot since then.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah. But yeah, yeah, you're probably right. There probably were some some of these hot spots um in the state, and and people had to shoot had to shoot steel, but prior to uh everyone else. But uh but yeah, the nationwide deal was 91, 91, 92 season. Yeah. Serious waterfowl management isn't about reacting day to day. It's about making better decisions every season. Create the X is a waterfowl land management app built for the real work in the field. It's not meant to replace your journal or notebook. It allows you to access your past management history in real time right in the field. Track water movement, log fieldwork, and GPS overlays, mark blinds, drop land damage pins, and record equipment maintenance documented by location and date so nothing gets lost over time. Instead of flipping through pages, you can reference past seasons directly on the map while you're standing there, giving you clear management history to guide future decisions. From your first field to the farthest fence line, manage it smarter with CreateTheX. Learn more at Creathex.com, available now in the App Store and Google Play.
SPEAKER_04The Standard Sportsman is brought to you by Noah Perry, financial advisor with Raymond James and Associates. Like you, Noah is an avid sportsman. He was raised in a family where duck hunting tradition and conserving our natural resources runs deep. Like you, he understands that success in the field requires proper planning, discipline, and patience, and most importantly, a high level of trust. Trust in your gear, trust in your dog, trust in your hunting partners. As a financial advisor with Raymond James, he brings that same understanding and partners with his clients to build tailored investment strategies and comprehensive plans, delivering a personalized experience built on trust and around your goals. Call Noah today at 501-313-7313 or send an email to noah.perry at RaymondJames.com. Noah Perry with Raymond James, personal by nature, trusted by design.
SPEAKER_02Well, if I'm not mistaken, a hen mallard was 100 points, correct?
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, it's 90, I think. What I remember 90. I think that's right. Yeah. Or you could shoot, you could theoretically shoot two mallards if you chose to shoot a hen. If you shot her first. Yes.
SPEAKER_02Right? Well, whatever puts you over. Right. I was gonna say, if you shot three Drakes first, then you could shoot her. True. So that was you know, and I it I don't know if you remember hearing the story, but I used to hear rumors all the time, game wardens running around with thermometers and they would stick it in the duck and see how long it'd been going. You know, I I highly doubt that was you know admissible in court because depending on the day and where you put that duck, body temperature is going to change, you know. But anyway, uh that was kind of the Wild West, right? And again, you know, we talked about the the counties uh sitting here listening to it, I'm sure it's like, well, you know what county you're in. Well, I mean, I've got a 230-acre field that the county line runs through, and I promise you it's not marked through the middle of that field. So step one way or the other, you're legal or illegal. Um, so our main topic is the open fields doctrine and kind of a recent change by the Arkansas Game of Fish. Um and I and I want to open this and preface this whole conversation by saying I am in and nothing, no opinion that I share today is really related to any enforcement officer. It's not. I just want to talk about you know, kind of the the search aspect and rights as a citizen. I don't want anyone to take it like we're bad mouthing anybody because that is not the intent of this discussion.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, I totally agree. Um it's and it's not from my personal experience or you know, anything like this, but you know, to to explain first, I think it'd be helpful to explain the open fields doctrine and what it is, because it basically allows uh a warrantless search of uh of your property um by a a wildlife officer. And uh it's it's come up uh in in some other states and it's gone to state supreme courts over it. I believe um Montana was the the last one to challenge it and actually uh go against the the federal open fields doctrine. And I think that was in the mid-90s, and then recently Pennsylvania did it. So, you know, 30 years later, um they they're gonna go by their state's constitution on what and what is allowed and what isn't allowed. But uh everybody else in the country, well, there could be some other states that that don't allow it either. But I I know those two, those are the last two to challenge it and actually go the opposite route where their state law takes place, where you you just can't go wandering onto someone's property uh investigating and or even think about it. So yeah, but but it did recently come up here in the state because uh the Arkansas Game of Fish and their enforcement division got in front of some uh legislators for the state of Arkansas and and were grilled on it pretty good because last year they brought some uh attempted registr uh legislation to the table. It didn't make it, but uh there were some there were some legislators that were not okay with uh some things they felt had happened and and they got grilled on it here recently and and Arkansas kind of came forward with what they how they handle it, and and you can take it from there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was gonna mention uh Tennessee ran into an issue or maybe got away from the open fields doctrine altogether. They had some enforcement officers who and I I'm not real familiar with the story, so if I get some of these details wrong, y'all forgive me. But they had set up, I think, a bunch of trail cameras on some private property surveilling some individuals, and I I guess basically did not have probable cause to do so. Um and there was a big case over it and and the landowners won. And I I think when I look at it, that's kind of where I come from, just from that that Fourth Amendment perspective of you know, if there's not probable cause, then you you don't have a reason to be on my property investigating something, you know. And and if I remember correctly, when Arkansas first, when they first brought that legislation up a year ago, that was the one issue that I had with it. I did not see a provision for a probable cause search. It it made it sound like without a warrant, they could not search. And I feel like that's a little too much. Um, I'm sure the probable cause thing probably gets abused here and there, but ultimately I do believe if a warden witnesses or is you know has enough suspicion of a violation that they should be able to pursue that and and uh look into it, investigate, whatever you want to call it. But I'm also kind of of the persuasion that they shouldn't be given complete free access to to private property. Now I know a listener and and guest of our show feels strongly the other way. He thinks that without that kind of enforcement, there'd be a myriad of game violations going on. So that may or may not be true. I mean, I still feel like ultimately you know, it comes back to good old-fashioned police work. If someone is violating, you've got to put in the legwork to catch them. And then when you do catch them, you know, let's let's punish them. You know, it's not I feel like some people get off a little light when it comes to game violations. So if we're gonna change the laws to protect from illegal searches, then we're gonna have to raise the stakes on on those that we do catch, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01Well well, you'd think so. Uh, but uh but yeah, and it was interesting how to me how the game and fit, you know, Arkansas Game and Fish Commission and their enforcement division, how they answered those questions about uh, you know, do they come on property just snooping around? And they stated they do not. Uh they uh have have kind of compromised on this this by regard, even though they had free access to do whatever they wanted to. I mean, they could come on my farm, wander around, look in our blinds, you know. I mean, I sort of heard those guys shoot a whole lot yesterday. Nobody else has got any ducks, why are they shooting so much? Uh they can they could do all that. Um, or they could just uh monitor uh you know, under this open fields doctrine. But the way they stated how they handle it is it they have to be almost asked to come on the property. And they gave a couple of examples that uh say a a landowner knows their neighbor shot a deer at night by a spotlight on their property. So the neighbor shot into the landowner's property and killed this deer in the dark with a spotlight. That landowner can call the game and fish and say, I need y'all to come and investigate this or keep an eye on this, uh, you know, because I've I think I've got a violator as a neighbor. Or the same thing, if my neighbor uh, you know, on the on the Grand Prairie is shooting a whole lot of ducks and nobody else has them, I can call or or or a neighbor, yeah, a neighbor can say, um, man, uh that's worth investigating, and then they would have to, you know, figure out how they're gonna go about um the monitoring a situation like that. But they almost have to be tipped off. They can't, they can't, um, or they're I shouldn't say they can't because they can, but the way they're handling it is they need uh almost like a tip line call to say, you know, so-and-so shooting deer in the dark. And I've I've seen do it, and and you should you should be checking that out. Um so uh that was interesting. They got into drones too. Uh that uh how how is the game and fish using drones to to do these kind of things and enter people's property? And and they do half of the work they do is investigation related, but it is it's the same principle. They just don't send them up and see if they can find a violator. They've they've got to be kind of tipped off that something's going on or suspect something's going on. Or they use it to help other agencies, like in uh uh you know, a a child's missing in the woods, or uh uh, you know, somebody has disappeared, or somebody's drowned, you know, all that kind of thing. So uh I thought that was kind of interesting how they responded to it and how they plan on handling it, uh, I guess to keep this from getting pushed farther, because the way it sounded was that the legislators seemed to be okay with their answers for now.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I thought it was pretty proactive and a good compromise. It seemed like it. Um you know, we'll time time will tell if it stays there, if they keep getting pushed. Um you definitely bring up something interesting on drones. I think that's gonna be the next big issue is you know, how easy is it to just veer out over a field? Oh, I saw you there, so now I'm gonna come check this or that. And and again, this doesn't come from past experience or a desire to not be caught doing something. It's just uh, you know, it's kind of like a legal search in your car, you know. Uh sure most Americans can to relate to not wanting that. I and I'll give you, I guess this is the closest example I've got to any experience with it. Um, we found a dead eagle 10 plus years ago, probably. Um not not something you want to find, pretty alarming, and then you know, you've got everybody else that uh, you know, what are they gonna think? Are they gonna think we shot it? Well, you know, are we gonna be under suspicion now because we found it? So anyway, we're at a local fire, whatever first responder training session, and our state guys there. So I notified him. He's like, Yeah, he's like, I'll turn it over to the feds and you know, I'll have him reach out to you, and you can let the gate down and they'll come get it. Well, it goes on for like a week or so and no contact, and we're still hunting, you know, going out every morning, drive past it. There's laying underneath the power line. And at first, there's feathers in the power line, and you're like, Well, look, it's pretty obvious what happened to it. Week goes by, feathers are gone. You're like, all right, well, hopefully they don't suspect something. Go by one day, and the eagle's gone. Go back to the gate and look, and you can see tracks where somebody came in. So they let themselves in and went and got it, which kind of bothered me a little because you had my phone number, you could have talked to me, you had my permission to be there, but you still didn't. You went on your own. And that didn't as a landowner didn't feel right. I mean, and I equate it to your house, right? If a sheriff came into your house for whatever reason he wanted to and didn't notify you, you'd be pretty pissed about it. So I I think I understand where a lot of these landowners are coming from and and where this kind of pushback is coming from. Again, that's not to say that all enforcement does that and that there's a big issue there, but I do understand the desire for that Fourth Amendment right not to have an illegal search. Duck dogs work hard, help yours perform at its best with Purina ProPlan. Outstanding nutrition with real meat as the number one ingredient, ProPlan Sport is made to feel hardworking dogs like yours. For increased endurance, joint support, and muscle tone, it all starts with Pro Plan Sport.
SPEAKER_01As the season changes, Tom Beckby's Fall Collection delivers timeless apparel, outerwear, bags, and gear built for cooler days ahead. From iconic wax jackets and the versatile layers to classic shirts and everyday essentials, every piece is crafted with the quality, durability, and purpose that define the brand. Explore the fall collection at Tombeckby.com or visit one of the five stores in Franklin, Tennessee, Oxford, Mississippi, Birmingham, Alabama, Middleburg, Virginia, and Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Well, I mean, yeah, the way they want to treat it would come into play in your story you've told a few times on this podcast about you know seeing the father and son or granddad and son or whatever they were doing, just throwing throwing bags of corn off the levee. Um in a in a scenario like that, yeah, they they would probably start monitoring. And I mean, we've even heard, you know, we had Troy Fawn on here, who's a high-ranking uh game warden here in the state. And um, you know, that's that's what happens. They get tipped off and and then they start their investigation. So it it sure doesn't appear that the they're just out there wandering the woods looking for for violations. They don't have the manpower to do that. Um now other states I don't know uh in and kind of how that works, but um, but yeah, I I I would I agree with you. I kind of um thought their response and how they're treating it was was a good compromise and and glad to see that's the that's the case. Um because yeah, it's it's a it's a fine line to walk for sure. And and I I want to believe most people want to do right and don't want to you know be violators and take more game than they're supposed to, but we know they're out there. And and the ones that do, it it it's it's a I mean it's like a thing. I mean, I i you go around in my part of the world where the farm is, you you can go, you can draw a you know, a I don't know, fifty, thirty mile farm. 50 mile circumference around there, and you can go talk to different people. And every one of them in a certain area has a guy. Oh, yeah. You know, John Doe, man. He, I mean, he probably kills 30, you know, whatever it is. And everybody knows it. Now, you know, getting getting a case they can prove because game wards have to do the same thing as a police officer. They got to be able to get something in court that they can prove. They just can't go lobbing charges everywhere. So that could be tough in the wild, you know, the wild uh outdoors. So uh, but yeah, I mean we we all know they're out there, um the the violators, and and most of the times they're they're really excessive in their violation. It's not like, man, we were just on them today and we just got so excited we killed too many. Um that's usually a habitual thing. Yeah. It seems like anyway.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it it I think so. And and I, you know, I'd be willing to bet that they are more prominent than most people know. I you know. But certainly if you're if you're outside of our area, I mean I'm sure different parts of the country have, you know, deer hunters, whatever that do it, but you know, the the people that don't understand the pressure here in the MAV probably would have a hard time understanding the the outlaws and violators that are down here too. So I wouldn't want to see anything done that really hindered the ability to uh catch those guys and and and punish them, you know. But at the same time, uh, you know, it's kind of the you'd rather whatever get guilty men go free than one innocent man get punished, you know. And that's I'm not really equating that the same way, but uh I wouldn't want to hinder the ability to catch anybody, but I don't want to see somebody's rights be abused in the same process either. So I I do think the Arkansas proposal is it's pretty spot on, and and it's good to see I guess them give a little ground to kind of find that that right zone um before it gets pushed another way and and they give up some ability to to do those things. So I think it was a good move.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree. I agree. It'll be interesting to see and see if this Pennsylvania deal opens the doors though for other states to to take this to task and maybe run it up their Supreme Courts and and go a different direction than the than the federal uh law. So uh that's that's a newish thing with Pennsylvania, and uh I'm sure there's gonna be some push in some other places. Um you know, as private landowners and and advocates for that kind of stuff start really pushing, pushing for it. And you got now you got precedence that's not from 30 years ago, like Montana. I mean, this is this was 2025. So um yeah, it could it could it could open up a can of worms now. You could see this this change for a lot of states um and and bring this more to the forefront than it already is.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I I think more dominoes are gonna fall, and I would be willing to bet that was the reason that that Arkansas was willing to make the move that they did to try to get out in front of some of that. Yeah, yeah, I think you're right. Um well, I think that's about all that I wanted to discuss today. Hopefully uh somebody got some some I don't know, information or opinion from that.
SPEAKER_01Maybe so. Maybe so. We'll get back into the guest game um these next few episodes. So yeah, if you're tired of listening to Kaisen and myself, uh this is what you this is what you get at the end of summer. And we've we've been saving the you know some of the guest episodes for uh fall when you know duck hunting gets more and more in our minds every day. So uh we've got some good guests lined up. We're recording a recording one tomorrow that I'm excited about, recording one on Monday I'm excited about. Yeah, both of those. So both those are going to be good. Those should be really good. Yep. Looking forward to those.
SPEAKER_02So yep, for sure. Me too. All right. Well, we appreciate uh appreciate everybody listening. You guys can find us online at thestandardsportsman.com or anywhere you get your podcast.
