Hi, I'm John Gunterman, and I want to welcome you to another episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast. Joining me in the studio are Mandelyn Royal and Rip Stalvey, the rest of our podcast team, and we're looking forward to visiting with you and talking poultry from feathers to function. It's going to get you to these nutritional levels, right? So whichever is easier for you, whichever way you want to go, fine with me. But you want those higher, you want the higher amino acids, you want, don't blow them up with protein, right? Because if you go and get like a 26 percent protein thinking you're going to make perfect feathers, you're actually going to end up with frayed and curly feathers. from overfeed protein. You're going to blow out the feather, right? And you're going to look, it's going to look uglier. You just not going to be happy. It looks like a frizz or something like that. What's that chicken? There's a chicken that way. Frizzles. Frizzles. Yeah. Frizzles. Yeah. They're all going to look like frizzles if you overdo the protein. So don't do that. They'll look like that until the next molt, right? It'll calm down a little bit if you get the feed adjusted quick enough. But, yeah, it's not going to be a show quality bird until you molt it again. Because once those hard feathers come out, and once they form, you're pretty much stuck with your large, your primaries until the next molt. I don't think they'll recycle those, do they Rip? I think the tail, I think the tail and the primaries on the wing are there for the year. Yeah, they are. They don't cycle. I hate it when you let me lead, we don't get very many questions. That's cause you do such a great job. Yeah, we're only halfway through. Alright, so look, lots of fresh moving air, this time of the year again, it's hot, the air doesn't want to move a whole lot for a lot of us, try and figure it out, you want to capture any outside, air movement that you can, in your facility, open it up, move some air, if you need to invest in some fans, invest in some fans, okay? Clean, cool the cooler you keep that bird actually, the more it stimulates feather follicles, okay? There's something inside that bird and based on temperature and what's going on, in the environment. You can greatly enhance feather follicles. Clean, cool water. Again, if you won't drink it, don't serve it. It just don't, you're not doing yourself any favors. And I know this, here's the number one comment I get when I say this. Yeah, but I see my chickens drinking out of a mud puddle. Yeah I can't help it, but maybe they're nutritionally deficient from something you're not giving them, right? Yeah, they will. They'll chase water across the yard, down the driveway. They'll drink out of a mud puddle. Actually, some breeds of chickens will do what they call mud fever. They'll purposely pick up dirt and put it in their water, and they'll make cloudy water. And, it really annoys the owner, of course, because they don't understand why. They're doing it because they have a digestive upset, right? Something in their gut is making their stomach burn or their intestines out of balance, whether it's, a bad bacteria whether the pH is off, whether there's a mycotoxin in the feed. The chicken ain't stupid, it's the owner who can't figure it out, right? But they're trying to fix a problem. So if you ever run into mud fever, you're Where they actually pick dirt up and put it in their water. Yeah. You may want to look, they're trying to tell you something. Just just don't think they're stupid chickens. Give it, give it a look. What would you do if you're trying to tell you that? I start going through. Like I'm going to check the water quality, right? Is my water pH low? Is my water bad? And then I'm going to start looking at the feed, is the quality of the feed everything it ought to be, right? You, Gary, it's not been long since you've been exposed to better feed. Top shelf feed. right? Yep. And the first time you opened that bag of top shelf feed and that smell came out of that bag, you were like, I never smelled this before in my life. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say this, I used to be skeptical. I used to think it was crazy. But now, I am a firm believer that 30 35 bag of feed, you crack that thing open, you smell it, you want to put some in a bowl and eat it and I'm to the point now where I won't feed my birds something I won't eat. For multiple reasons, one being that eventually I may eat them, but I'm not going to feed my birds something that I won't eat. And in doing that, it is correct. They You know, I feed my birds two and a half, three ounces. I feed them three. If I'm being generous, it's usually two to two and a half ounces is what they get per day. And I made when we did the screen that had the molt ration, I started laughing cause I've had some places that I had to go the last couple of weeks, so I had somebody stayed at my farm to take care of my animals. And he called me the first night and he said, Hey something's different about this feed. It's not what you normally have. And I just started laughing cause I'll make it and I'll blend it and then I'll put it in a drum for storage. And I said, it is different. It's not the same. It's not ruined because I cut the protein down to about 12 percent and it, it smelled different. So that was funny to me. And he, my backyard looks like a feather massacre right now. I looked at it the other day, it went through one of my cameras and I was like, it's, there, it's because I knew the molt was coming, they're going through it right now, and it looks rough, but, they're starting to pull out of it, and I'll be back home this weekend, and I will make them what they're used to getting, just like what you said, right around 20 percent protein. All the amino acids that they need and what they should be getting. And they'll grow me some beautiful feathers and hopefully win me some trophies. They should. Check their body weight, check their pelvic bones, make sure that they've lost their, the fat and got, tightened up on them. I'll get my bucket and go hang out with them Saturday before I change their diet, I promise. But getting back on track, folks, you want to, you need to feed lower energy, lower protein, higher fiber. Again, depending on if you've never done a molt, how old your birds are, this could be two or it could be three weeks, right? So if you've got four, five, six year old hens and you've never, ever molted them, and you've been overfeeding them most of their life, You're probably going to go closer to three weeks to get those pelvic bones back down to being sharp and tight, okay? So just, once, once you got full feather drop I actually really wish people would monitor their body temperatures, check it periodically, but I don't rectal thermometer anymore. I'm sure you can still buy them. But I don't know how many people listening are willing to actually use a rectal thermometer on their ticket. So anyway but if we could track it and we see that fever break, the feathers should be gone. That's when you want to go back over to that performance feed, following that feather drop to get good the follicles, and bring them back around. I saw that in the list there from Joy they should be ready to molt. Anytime now and you may actually want to encourage the molt, just so they're not straggling along, but you can see a molt anytime after one year, so you're there. You probably want to get them on, you probably want to get them on your schedule, especially if you're going to show, depending on when you need eggs, can actually put a, you can actually mold a chicken whenever you want. You may have to withhold water for a day to get it to trigger, but usually that high energy or that low energy, high protein feed and being limited, you can get them into a mold pretty easily. Yeah, you can feed the sprouted grain fodder to increase the fiber still gonna have to reduce your total, your total caloric intake and protein and total volume of feed. So you're gonna have to figure that out the sprouted grain fodder. To get it down low enough, right? So it's going to be almost triple the weight. So you're looking at five or six ounces after it's been sprouted to get a two ounce equivalent. Okay. The biggest thing. Go ahead, Rob. Let's see. Anything specific, diet, molt wise for a long tailed bird, like a Phoenix. Rob, I honestly don't know. I, I've shared with you what I know about the molt. When it comes down to being breed specific, I, Rip you got any help for me here? I know that the Phoenix breeders that I know, they always prefer a higher protein feed. And I suspect that's because what they're getting, usually a game bird feed, has higher levels of amino acids. So they see an improvement in their feathers. I have been trying to find a couple of phoenix breeders that would be willing to do a little experimental feed trial with those birds. And I can't help but wonder, about what was it, a couple of months ago, we did that show and talked about cysteine and the effect that it has on feathers and how to improve them. It'd be interesting. Now, Kerry, I know you weren't going to say anything about this, but I'll bring it up. Your show pro supplement has added cysteine to it, doesn't it? It does, and I do have a phoenix breeder that I caught them right as they had some fixing to hatch out. So we'll have some solid data probably in another month or three. Even on the Phoenix early on working with a breeder, I've got a, an American game, gamefowl guy in Kentucky and he, some of his genetics are running, 32, 33, 34 inch streamer feathers, tail feathers. And, we moulted them out and we did see. He was doing, like the catfish and the cat food and the, that kind of feed prior to knowing me, right? So we made some adjustments and, we got him on a good feed, so we had gained like six to eight inches on some of those streamers. Coming through the moult, getting them recycled, coming out the other side on a good, properly balanced feed. That's got to make a difference. I'm sorry, it really doesn't. It will. It will. But I don't have any statistical data to tell Rob, this is what you have to do. Oh, I agree. And we know on paper that the cysteine is the predominant amino acid for feathers. And moving forward, I'm anxious to see, what carries new supplement with the cysteine in it, and you've got half a dozen people out there trying it. We'll know, it won't take long. We will know. Joe. Folks, the key to the molt is don't be in a hurry, you gotta have patience, I know the birds look ugly. But feeding them high protein and feeding them wrong and ignoring them, a lot of people actually ignore the birds during the molt because of how poorly they look. And that's when, that's when your bird actually needs you the most, right? That's when you need to be doing it. If you screw up the molt, It doesn't matter what you do for the next 12 months you will not fix it. Can't fix it. Nope. You can't fix live with what you did. Getting that molt done right, getting it clean, helping that bird through, reducing stress, reducing body fat, and it's going to be, is going be the. For the post molt feed, is that fed by weight as well? It is but you're going back to normal feeding levels based on, what your bird is. Kaisa has broad, er, she has heritage bronze. She has some excellent, award winning bronze turkeys. For her, coming out of the moult, in case I'd probably be at probably close to eight ounces, and I would split that feeding into two just for better utilization, but a heavier feeding in the afternoon once the feathers are back in and the, once the follicles are really good, feathers are back in and the bird looks good, then readjust to maintenance so that they don't get too fat. You're going to have to, hanging out with your birds, which you like to do, just check them for fat as often as you can and try not to get them too fat. But a turkey may not look right if it doesn't have a certain amount of body fat. It's not going to look full enough and feel right for show, in the judge's hand. Rip. You ever judge turkeys? Yes used to, they just judged them looking at them in the pen. But lately, thank goodness, they went back to the old way of doing it and taking those birds out and actually getting hands on those birds. And it makes a big difference in what you can, feathers can hide so much, holding a 30, 30 pound bird, 30 plus pound bird is going to be difficult. That is not for the faint of heart, right? Hopefully they got a stand or something where they have a table that has a slot inclined to it and they lay them on that table and they hold the legs. I need to watch that sometime. But to me, I think a turkey to feel right to a judge and actually look right. I think is going to need some body fat. Yes. No, absolutely not. You do not want it to be totally lean and tight, but but yeah, controlled feed pretty much for any of the birds that we're talking about here tonight, when they come out of the molt, you're going to go back to their normal ration, pretty much the same amount. You can be slightly above for that first couple of weeks coming out of the molt just to encourage that feather follicle. But, don't stay on free choice or, an extra amount of feed for more than three weeks, okay, and then get them back down to their maintenance. Those feather follicles are formed, you've got what you got, but getting the feathers out as quick as you can, and that's really the point of the molt feed, recipe that I put out there getting those feathers out as quick as you can, so that you can repair, rebuild those follicles, for the new feathers is going to yield you better plumage in the long run. Do you feel the pelvic bones from the internal? I just, Feel them from behind. I'm coming in, I'm coming straight in from the vent, from the back end. I'm usually coming in with two or three fingers gently, and I'm not pushing real hard. I come in until I feel the pelvic bone and then, based on my feel, are they pointy, are they firm or are they soft and rounded? The thing is are they rounded? I could almost say, if they feel like the eraser end of a pencil, which people don't even know what pencils are anymore versus, versus the pointy end of the pencil, right? I want them to feel more like the pointy end of the pencil, not the eraser end of the pencil. They should not be blunt. I want them to feel sharper coming out of the mold. What else you got? I was clicking the wrong button there. Sorry. Joy says her girls are just for eggs. And she has found a rectal thermometer that reads up to 109 degrees. She got it off of Amazon. Awesome. Awesome. And even if your birds are for your own eggs and your own enjoyment in the backyard, here's the thing, doing a good proper molt it doesn't have to be cruel. Every, you say molt and people cringe like you're going to ruin your birds and you're being cruel and inhumane. And, if you actually learn how to do a good molt and you let them cycle through, instead of having laying hens for 5, 6, 7 years, now, I know people out there that have had hens that are still producing, not large amounts, but still producing at 9 years of age, okay. And if you've got a really outstanding hen and she produces really well chicks, really good chicks on a regular basis, I would want to breed that bird just as long as I possibly could. Yeah, but how many nine year old birds do you know of, Rip? How common is it to hear somebody has a nine year old hen? That's very uncommon. Most folks won't even keep a bird past two years old before they're swapping it out. I don't know, you hit that, if you hit that perfect bird, you ever get that perfect hen that throws you the best chicks? Like you said, you want to keep her as long as you can. Ride that horse as far as you can. You bet, because that kind of hen is one in a million. And you need to get everything you can. And Lloyd, good to see you back on here again tonight. By golly, we've been missing you. Yes, sir. And I, you read this and you want to chuckle and he says, be careful with neighbors calling cops for animal abuse because chickens will be bawled and the whole yard is filled with feathers. Yeah. Folks, I actually had that happen to me one time. Sheriff's department came and got me. To take me to somebody's house and tell them what that guy, how that guy was mistreating those birds. And I, I explained carefully and what it all, it was. And as I drove off, I was just shaking my head, if people are, if people don't have chickens, never grew up around chickens and they don't know the process of then, yeah, to them, it looks like, you're doing something cruel and inhumane and, not at all. It's part of the natural cycle. Let's see. We had another one here. Oh, question about amino acids. Is there a human food that Jeff can suggest to give that my girls, to give that my girls can like sardines? Yeah, there's nothing wrong with sardines. I like them myself. Now, this happened purely by accident, right? Folks, I'm going to digress for a minute. We have time. I'm an avid fisherman. So I had a bad day of fishing and I came home with a bucket full of minnows, small fish that I was using for bait. And the day was quite depressing in the number of fish that I caught. And I didn't have a way to keep the minnows. So I went out back to the chicken coop and I pulled up my bucket and I started flipping minnows over the fence one at a time. One, one minute at a time. And it was hilarious. Talk about redneck entertainment, man. Yes. Yes. Now this was in the beginning of my chicken keeping years, when my daughter was about 10. And I think I had three buff arpingtons one male, two hens, and there was one other chicken in there, and they ate four dozen. Minnows. Okay. Their crop was so full of minnows, right? They looked like they all swallowed a softball, right? I can imagine. It was hilarious. That minnow had hit the ground and as soon as it twitched once, just wiggled once, they were on it. Yeah. Yeah. Am I telling you to go buy minnows? No, but if you need some good redneck entertainment, it's been a depressing day, yeah, that's a good way to get over it, right? Natalie wants to know, for cold climates, snow usually starts in November there, when should molts start in order to have them have full feathers before winter? I feel you, depending on the plumage of the bird, heavy plumage, light plumage, whatever, but I need at least 60 days for this whole cycle to really take place, even under control, you need 60 days. Natalie, I would be starting, anytime now. The latest for you, I would start is like August. Sometime in August, just to make sure you've got feathers back on by October. When it starts getting, I'd start getting colder, but I would push them into a mold, by August 15th at the latest. So soon. John Pelton wants to know, is it bad to push them too fast through the molt by giving them a supplement to help feather growth? Look, I'm recommending the feather, the supplement all the way through the molt, right? Because of the vitamins and the amino acids. All we're dropping is The, we're dropping the energy, we're dropping the protein, and we're increasing the fiber. Feathers are fully dropped, and again, checking their body temperature, they'll tell you when it's time, right? If you're looking at your birds every day you'll tell, you'll, feathers are gone and you start seeing the follicles swell with the new feathers. It's time to get them back on, a higher protein feed, a higher quality, a performance feed is what I'm calling it. Each breed is going to be a little bit different and if they've never been molted, John, that initial, the first time through, you could be three weeks, you could even be four weeks trying to get the fat off of them and getting them to mold out, right? Now, if you can make this an annual process, it'll be a lot easier down the road, but If you've got five, six year old hens that have never been molted, it could be a struggle. I'm not telling you it's going to be easy. And Stacy wants to know, how will this managed molt process impact egg production? If it's done correctly, you should in, in the, More of a commercial, more of a commercial type setting if the bird, we should be able to get 80 percent of the production after the molt that it had in the previous lay cycle, so if the bird averaged 80%, in its first lay cycle as a pullet, We should be able to get 64 to 70 percent on the second lay cycle. We assume roughly 10 percent drop in production after each molt cycle. Now, this is not true of every bird, every breed. That's an estimation. But we should be able to still get, really good viable eggs after the molt. They should be better. And you should, if you can shrink the ovaries back down and get them in good condition, so we get good egg follicles, we should be able to do really well. And finally, SG says, thank you for the golden girl support. And I assume she's talking about the Buff Orpingtons. Yeah. All right, either that or the old hens that we're talking about how to recycle. So yeah, because the golden girls on TV, the TV show was what three older women. I don't, I never really watched it, but I'm assuming Buff Arpington as well. I think that gets us down to the tail end of the show. And I just want to thank everybody for joining us tonight. We've had a great show and we've got some really good comments and questions. And advice on where to get stuff. We really appreciate that. Remember, we'll be back in two weeks with another Poultry Keepers 360 live. I would encourage you to listen to Poultry Keepers podcast. Comes out every Tuesday and. Kerry has a podcast, Poultry Nerds podcast, and that comes out Thursdays, is that right? Yes, sir. Okay. We got you covered on poultry information between the three of us here. So until next time, folks, thank you for joining us. And we hope that you're going to have a good time, and we will see you soon. This brings us to the close of another Poultry Keepers podcast. We're very happy you chose to join us. Until next time, we'd appreciate it if you would drop us a note, letting us know your thoughts about our podcast. Please share our podcast with your friends that keep poultry. We hope you'll join us again when we'll be talking poultry from feathers to function.