Poultry Keepers Podcast

The Role of Proteins, Fats, and Fibers in Poultry Nutrition-Part 1

• Rip Stalvey, Jeff Mattocks, and Carey Blackmon • Season 2 • Episode 82

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In this episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast, Jeff Mattocks, Carey Blackmon, and Rip Stalvey explore the complexities of proteins, fats, and fibers in poultry nutrition. 

They delve into protein sources, comparing vegetable-based (mostly soybean and canola meal) and animal-based (fish meal and meat meals) proteins, and discuss essential amino acids like lysine and methionine. The conversation covers the importance of sustainable fishing for fishmeal, concerns over overfeeding protein, and specific nutritional needs during different growth stages of poultry, including chicks, growers, developers, layers, and breeding stock. 

The hosts emphasize the need for balanced amino acid profiles and adequate vitamins for healthy poultry development and productivity.

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Alex:

Welcome to another episode of the Poultry Keepers Podcast, where we talk poultry from feathers to function. Today's show features Jeff Mattocks, Carey Blackmon and Rip Stallvee discussing the roles of proteins, fats, and fibers in poultry nutrition in a recent PK 360 Livestream show.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rip Stalvey:

We thought we would talk about the major feed ingredients, talk about proteins, talk about fibers, and we talk about fats. But we're going to get a bit of a deep dive. And as always, if y'all have a question, don't hesitate to ask us, because we will do our very, very best to answer those for you. So, The sources of protein in poultry diets, you know, you've basically got two sources, vegetable based proteins and animal based proteins. Jeff, I'm guessing that the most popular vegetable based protein is soybean.

Jeff Mattocks:

Yeah, unfortunately, the number one, the king of protein across the U. S. and actually most of the world is solvent extracted soybean meal where they use a chemical decreaser. Yes, hexane to loosen and dislodge the flat the fats from the soybean flesh And then they drive it off with forced air and they capture the fat They tell you that they separate the hexane because they want to reuse it. It's expensive I don't know. Can you ever get a hundred percent out? I don't know That's I'm a speculative there.

Rip Stalvey:

So that hexane kind of scares me off a little bit that can be some pretty bad stuff. Yeah And I'm suspecting, since soybeans are in there, that the other bees and peens, bees and peas like legumes would be good. Canola meal, I know they use that out west, don't they?

Jeff Mattocks:

Oh, they're using that in your neck of the woods, even so, there's a big canola meal processor, you know, in, in North Northwest or Northwest Georgia, but there's several, there's canola is now being grown quite widely throughout the Southwest or through the South Southern states. It's a little more drought tolerant

and

Jeff Mattocks:

it has a high oil yield. So when the oil market is high, the value of canola is higher. But it's easier to grow and it's a good rotation for, you know, in place of soybeans. It's just, you know, so you see a lot of canola meal being used more and more. It's growing.

Rip Stalvey:

Gotcha. I was not aware we had a processing plant in the south now. That's, that's good to know. And we would be remiss if we got to talking about proteins and we didn't bring up amino acids, one of our favorite subjects. Mine anyway. Mine for sure. Absolutely. But amino acids in vegetable proteins, can we get all the amino acids we need strictly from using vegetable proteins?

Jeff Mattocks:

It's not that we can't, but the ratios are not right. Okay, so. Vegetable proteins tend to be higher in lysine, but they're very short in methionine. There's only a couple of vegetable protein sources that have, you know, significant amounts of methionine, and one of them being sesame meal, which is hard to find, right? But sesame meal is. Really high in methionine. So it is an option. The other one is camelina meal. And, you know, that's part of the mustard family. Again, limited supply, pretty much in the Northwest. You really don't see it in the South or the East. So, but yeah, for the most part, you know, when you're looking at peas, soybeans, other dry edible beans their ratio of lysine to methionine is about four to one. And in a poultry diet, we're looking for about a two to one or a two and a half to one lysine to methionine ratio. So,

Rip Stalvey:

so I'm assuming then that Animal based proteins have a much better level of those amino acids that are missing in some of the vegetable based protein.

Jeff Mattocks:

They do. Especially if it's considered a wild animal that's been able to go out and forage and feed on its own. You know, that's why I lean a little heavier on the fish meals versus So we're finding that, you know, like commercial meat and bone meal poultry meal, feathered meals, things like that. Animals that are being fed corn and soy those amino acids are not as enriched as in like a wild caught fish meal. So even I saw this first one with the catfish, which is farmed, you know, widely throughout the south, southern states. And the amino acid profile on catfish meal. When they take the fillets off and they process it, everything else that's left, you know, those amino acid profiles are not really that great because the catfish is eating a corn and soy based diet. So,

Rip Stalvey:

isn't there some other aspects of catfish meal? Now that you brought that up, it's been a while since we've talked about catfish meal, and I seem like I recall you saying something, but I honestly can't remember what it was something about perhaps in a way it was processed or something. Well, that's,

Jeff Mattocks:

yeah, I mean, it doesn't have the greatest, you know, clean process whatsoever, but I avoid it because, you know, antibiotics and other chemical treatments are frequently given to the catfish, right? So people don't realize that those catfish fillets that they may buy or eat at, you know, Cracker Barrel or wherever they like those catfish are probably getting fed as much antibiotics as chickens. Right. Just to keep them healthy. Right. They have a ongoing regimen to maintain where they're feeding antibiotics to them on a pretty much regular basis.

Rip Stalvey:

That's when you said that, that jogged my memory. And that's what I recall. That's the

Jeff Mattocks:

only reason I avoid it. It's, you know, I mean, everybody has their own personal preferences and what is okay and what is not okay. So, you know, everybody needs to make that decision for themselves.

Rip Stalvey:

Oh, sure.

Jeff Mattocks:

But, you know, and there's a lot of people using catfish meal and, you know, is it better than pork meal or, you know, for sure. I don't really want to feed same species back, you know, so I don't feed any poultry or feather back to, you know, chickens. That's just my personal preference again. Right. So,

Carey Blackmon:

I mean, that seems a little weird. To feed chicken back to chicken. It's, it's a

Jeff Mattocks:

common practice.

Carey Blackmon:

I mean, it is, but it just seems weird to me.

Jeff Mattocks:

So, you know, in the commercial world, what they look at, okay. So most of the protein prices are set based on. The price of soybean meal. So soybean meal goes up, then all other proteins may go up as well, but in a short period of time, in a 30 day window, they may not adjust quickly. So, you know, your large like Pilgrim's Pride, Tyson, you know, all of those larger integrators, they'll go buy and shop, they'll go shop and buy Based on the price per pound of protein and so that's why so sometimes, you know You'll see those products are being added into their diets usually not Just depends on what the market price is So they're always shot they got buyers that do nothing but shop and book prices and lock them in Trying to maximize the profit of those corporations.

Rip Stalvey:

Let's talk about fish meal for a minute And sometimes when I mention to people about adding fish meal to their poultry diets, they bring up the point, well that's not a sustainably harvested product. And I know some of it is not, but I think there's some, and the supplier you use, I mean you showed us the video they do practice sustainable harvesting.

Jeff Mattocks:

They do. They realize that it's a natural resource that, you know, they're, they're life independent. You know, they're, they're dependent on, right. And they have been for multiple generations. So, you know, they're out there they're checking the catch. They're measuring the amount of juveniles. They're, you know, they have spotter planes in, in the air all the time, counting the number of pods. But So far, there's no regulation or there's no controls on how much menhaden is caught out of the gulf or along the eastern seaboard. So, if it's good weather and the fish are easy to find, you know, your daybrooks daybrook industries, omega proteins, etc. They'll go harvest as much as they can harvest, right? They, they're not really, you know, they're not setting a limit. And so, there, there is Not really sustainability there or there's no oversight. There's no oversight and control on the harvest. There's nobody really measuring, you know, okay, what is the total population out there? Right? How much should we limit the harvest to? And nothing like that. Whereas like the sardine industry in the Pacific, you know, off the coast of Peru, you know, South America through the Latin American countries and into Mexico, they work together collecting the science and the data and Peru will actually set a harvest limit. Right. They'll say, okay, based on our scientific research, we will not harvest more than like, you know, a thousand metric tons. I'm just throwing out a number, right? And this small group of fisheries in the Sea of Cortez that I'm working with, you know, the fishing companies there all work together, like all of their owners get together. They discuss it. They sit down with the Mexican government officials, right? You know, they, so they have a sustainability, you know, a sustainable harvest certificate that they go through and the way that they do it. And if they're not catching adults, you know, then they'll move or they won't keep. fishing juveniles, right? Because they know all they're doing is cutting off their future harvest. Okay. So all fishing is not the same everywhere.

Rip Stalvey:

True. Very true. You know, you know, and, and talking about fish meal, I can tell a difference between birds that have. My birds especially, if there's fish meal in their diet, or if there's not. I see it primarily in the feathers. The feather quality is much better if they're on fish meal. I think it has a little bit more shine to it. That may just be my imagination. I don't know. And I think I can detect a difference in the taste of the eggs. Not, not negatively. It's just a little bit too much fish meal in that. Can ruin everything, but it just has a richer or full bodied flavor to it

Jeff Mattocks:

Yeah, and if you're still getting feed from Caleb And you know also the other ingredients that are in there again. There's no byproducts, right? So right you're getting a complete feed and then if you add a little bit of fish meal to that now for layers You don't want to go over about three three percent of the diet total Including what may already be in the feed, then you're going to start to taste or smell a little bit of that fish when you're cooking those eggs or eating those eggs, but at 3 percent most people cannot detect it.

Rip Stalvey:

And incidentally, I'm, I'm not getting feed from Caleb anymore. I'm getting it from our compadre down there. Mr. Blackman. Better yet? Absolutely. Like, like doing business with friends. Yeah.

Jeff Mattocks:

But yeah, that's what you're seeing. And, and the, the natural fats in the fish meal also are going to help with that shine, like you were talking about. They're more of a high omega 3 type fish meal, you know, so the bird overall is going to be a little bit more healthy than using all seed oil, seed oils. So, they're able to process it, you know, and we, we're going to talk about fats later, but right now we're talking about proteins. But it's hard to beat a good meat type protein. I hope Mike's on tonight. I wish he'd chime in. Mike Lotzer from Alaska, and now he's feeding, you know roadkill moose and fishy bear and salmon eggs, so.

Rip Stalvey:

Every time I see him post it just literally amazes me of the things he has to go through and the adaptations he has to make to be able to to raise poultry efficiently and effectively up there in Alaska. But look, if

Carey Blackmon:

you, if you talk to him about it, the man has got it to a science. Oh, he does. He's done an astronomical amount of research, but the way he's got it down pat, He's got it to a science, it's more economical, and it's better at the same time. And you know, you would think everything in Alaska is ridiculous, but he's, he's made it work.

Rip Stalvey:

I give him a lot of credit for that because, like you said, he is a researchaholic. And we're constantly messaging back and forth, bouncing ideas off of each other, but he just, he really impresses me.

Jeff Mattocks:

Well, he was willing to go the extra mile to find these resources. You know, when he reached out to me and said, you know, I can't bring in roasted soybeans. I, you know, these, this is not cost effective for me. Right. He goes, I've got to find a way to feed my birds more with more local inputs. I said, well, what do you have easy access to? You know, on the protein side, we started talking and he gave me a good list and I started looking up the nutrient values and figured putting it all together on a piece of paper. And here we go. So he seems like he's pretty happy with what's going on up there.

Rip Stalvey:

I think so. I think so. Let's talk about amino acids and which one impacts a particular thing about poultry. For example, lysine is going to be really critical for muscle growth and maintenance, and that also has some impact on feather development. And the overall body condition, whereas methionine, my paper is all stuck together here, methionine seems to have more of an impact on feather production and that's, if you're showing birds, okay, I can't say enough, pay attention to the Lysine, methionine, and if you can find out what it is, the cysteine level as well, too, because cysteine is an amino acid that really boosts the feather quality. Cysteine is one of the major components in keratin, and that's what makes up chicken feathers. Those are really, really important, and if you're not sure, drop me a message or something, and we can address that for you and give you a little help there.

Jeff Mattocks:

Yeah, there's still, there's no good hard data on what the right level of cysteine is. Somehow inside the chicken they can convert methionine to be like cysteine. However, if you You know, and that's why we went with the cysteine in the show pro with Gary is when you can supplement the cysteine Beside the methionine they work much more efficiently everything that I've seen Cysteine should be 50 to 65 percent of what the methionine level is, right? So, you know for shooting for that 0. 5 methionine You know, I need at least a 0. 3, you know, right around that cysteine but it's hard to calculate for, I mean, even my nutritional program that I do formulas on you know, is old enough that it's not valuing, it's not reporting a cysteine value. So I'm not sure how I get that upgraded or what I, where do I go from here, but it's going to be up and coming and it's going to be important. Especially for show poultry, right? Yes. Where you want the absolute best feather formation and quality cysteine is going to be the ticket. I mean, the others are important as well, but the cysteine is like, it is the magic key.

Rip Stalvey:

It's the icing on the cake.

Carey Blackmon:

Yes, sir. It helps with the sheen, that's for sure.

Rip Stalvey:

Let's talk about age specific. Protein requirements. Let's start off with baby chicks from the time they hatched till they're what, maybe six weeks old.

Jeff Mattocks:

Again, depends on those amino acid levels, but you know, you're anywhere from 20 to 22 percent. So when I see people posting they're feeding 24 or like a game bird starter, I get really nervous. That's a little bit of overkill. You can overfeed protein and people just don't can be dangerous. Yeah you know there was some post not long ago about gout and Too much protein or too much calcium Can lead to gout and it's hard to fix gout once once you get that uric acid buildup it's hard to get it, it's hard to get the bird back to normal.

Carey Blackmon:

It also affects negatively affects the hatch ability of that bird's offspring. I've seen it to where a hen had that and you know, she, she, they were still breeding and all that good stuff. But when you would hatch a chick out, that chick would only survive for about a week. And it was because of the, you know, the, that had that, that chick, the chicken, the hen had that gout and it wasn't good.

Rip Stalvey:

And I have seen more comments about people dealing with gout, I think, in the past 12 months than I ever recall seeing before. And I don't know if this is because there's this mantra, particularly in the Bantam community, is that birds need a lot of protein, need a lot of protein. And that's not really the case. They need a well balanced diet, but it doesn't have to be just gobby rich in protein.

Carey Blackmon:

Well, I think for me at one point before I really started learning a whole lot about nutrition, I would start chicks out. Like chicken chicks on a quail starter because I knew like I knew the amino acid levels what they should be. And if you look at most of your store bought feed, the amino acids on a game bird starter feed is about what they really should be for a chicken. You know, and that is part of the reason why it costs a little more and all that. But so what I was doing is. I would feed them the game bird starter for two, two and a half weeks, but then I would pull them off because I knew that was way too much protein and you know, gout, it burns your kidneys up, all that good stuff for longterm, you know, prolonged uses. But I was doing it in the beginning to get them the amino acids that they needed. And now that I've learned a whole lot more about nutrition. You know, I, I know that there's ways to get the methionine, lysine, vitamin A, D and B. You know, you can get all of that stuff without buying the more expensive game bird feeder feed for your birds. And it's, it's a lot better for them. But I really think that's the reason why a lot of people do because they don't know ways to supplement the feed, a chick starter that's in that 18 to 22 percent range to get the amino acids and the vitamin levels without doing game bird or something else.

Rip Stalvey:

Well, I mean, when you stop and think about it, Kerry, there's really not much information available to folks about doing that.

Jeff Mattocks:

No. Well, the one that's making me nervous is the people that are buying that 24, that 28 percent protein.

Rip Stalvey:

Oh, yeah.

Jeff Mattocks:

And still putting the breeder supplement or the show pro or something like that with it because now you're really kicking it up a notch and You're lighting a fuse on a stick of dynamite. You just don't want to do that, right? Yeah, it looks good for a little while but you know too much of a good thing is not good

Carey Blackmon:

You know, I had somebody message me earlier today They wanted me to recalculate some numbers because they were feeding one particular type of feed that was not good, but that was all they could get. And they were using a breeder supplement. and additional feed fish meal. And now that they're, they're getting a better feed, like, do I need to change it? And I said, yes, definitely. You need to change it. Let's, let us run some numbers and, and see. What you may need to change it to, but, you know, I really, I don't think they're going to need the fishmeal and the breeder supplement anymore because they're, they, they are buying a better quality feed.

Jeff Mattocks:

Yeah, don't, yeah, don't do that. I mean, you can't overdo it, right? Yeah.

Rip Stalvey:

Not only is it bad for the birds, it's bad for your pocketbook in the long run, too. Yeah. What about grower chicks, Jeff, 6 to 18 weeks old?

Jeff Mattocks:

Well, you know, here in the North, I'm good at an 18%. You know, because they're going to eat a little bit more due to temperature in the South, I would run probably a 19. 19 or 20, especially in the hot weather because their, their dietary intake there, the amount of feed they eat every day is going to be reduced, right? So again, I'm not looking at the percentage. I'm looking at how many grams of protein the bird actually consumes in a day. We only can shop for it based on, you know, percent of protein. So, you know, in a hotter climate you know, I'm going to want to run a little bit higher. Protein only, you know, because of reduced intake, you know, so like for you down there, Rip, I think a 19, a 19 is probably ideal. And then up here, you know, I can get by with a 17 and a half or an 18 in the north. So

Rip Stalvey:

what about layers? And I'm, I'm assuming as we're going along, the protein requirements are starting to drop a little bit and I'm assuming that's the same thing for layers, correct?

Jeff Mattocks:

Well, even before you get to layer, so if you're going to do layers, so to speak, then we want to go to a developer feed, which is going to be around 16 and a half, 17 percent protein. Right. And so you're doing like six weeks on each stage because when you go to layer, you want the, you want to see an increase in protein at the onset of late because now her demand for, for protein is higher because she is producing an egg. Okay. So, you know so you go starter grower developer. Right. And then, and, and it's, this isn't just for laying chicks. This is for everyone, but you don't have, you don't have developer options out there. Right. So that's the downside, but I don't know

Rip Stalvey:

when, when I've seen a developer in the peach store here,

Jeff Mattocks:

you have it and you won't, right. It's just one. The customer doesn't know they need it to the feed stores, not going to sell enough of it to keep it on the shelf. Right. So you're just not going to see a developer. But a developer is actually important, you know, to finish that growth cycle, let things finish out in that, in that hand. Or that cockrell, you know, at a little bit slower pace without overfeeding the protein, they don't need that much protein at that stage. Right? And then as soon as you see that first egg, we want to jump back up into that again, up here where they're gonna consume a little more, we're gonna want about a 17 or an 18 and then down. You know, down in the South, we would run a 19, 19 or a 20 layer, just depending on how much they're eating every day. So, I'm assuming a hen's going to eat four ounces, you know, above the Mason Dixon line, right? Below the Mason Dixon line, probably two and a half to three ounces, if it's good feed, is all she should need, right? Now, if it's full of byproducts and, and other stuff, she'll eat more, trying to compensate and get her energy needs. So, Noah asks, what about birds like Buckeyes that require higher protein? Noah, I don't want to step on your toes, but a Buckeye doesn't require any higher protein than any other breed. Okay, so, if it's well balanced feed. properly put together, they're going to be starting on a 22 dropping down to a 19, you know, same regimen that we just talked about. If the amino acids are correct and the feed isn't loaded up with a bunch of byproducts. So people are just kind of drunk on protein and way over feeding it in the show world. And it's, it's not the protein that makes the difference. It is the amino acids. Okay.

Rip Stalvey:

What about breeding stock? Any difference there in protein requirements or

Jeff Mattocks:

needs, I should say? I, so once you breeding stocks that you want to collect eggs from and hatch is, we want to have a bump up in vitamins or across the board, A for sure, A and e. And we've gotta get the. The B vitamins up, you know, the riboflavin, the thiamine, the niacin. That's all going to transfer into that egg to give you better chick vigor and increased hatch ability, you know So I'm looking at increasing those and I would come up a little bit on the amino acids or protein, you know, just, just during that breeding cycle. And that's where adding that little bit of fish meal is going to be huge as far as getting those birds to, you know, to maximize the birds. True laying potential.

Alex:

Thank you for listening to our podcast. Be sure to join us next Tuesday as we conclude this discussion on the role of proteins, fats, and fibers in poultry nutrition. Until then keep enjoying your birds and keep them happy, healthy and productive.

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