Poultry Keepers Podcast

Practical Poultry Genetics-Part 2

• Rip Stalvey, John Gunterman, and Mandelyn Royal • Season 2 • Episode 91

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In this episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast, hosts Mandelyn, John, and Rip discuss the importance of genetic knowledge for backyard poultry keepers. They explain key genetic concepts like genotype versus phenotype, dominant versus recessive traits, and test mating. 

 The hosts delve into practical applications, such as identifying faults, selecting quality birds, and ensuring strong structure and even growth. They also highlight the challenges of breeding, the importance of record-keeping, and how to prevent unwanted traits. 

 The episode underscores the significance of observing birds closely, maintaining genetic consistency, and learning from breeding experiences.

#PoultryGenetics #BreedingBetterBirds #PoultryBreeding #FlockDevelopment #SelectiveBreeding #RecessiveTraits #GeneticConsistency #BloodlinePreservation
 #PoultryEducation #FarmToFlock #HomesteadPoultry #ChickensWithPurpose
 #HandsOnGenetics


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Alex:

Hey folks, and welcome to another episode of the Poultry Keepers podcast. I have a question for you. How much do backyard poultry keepers really need to know about genetics? In this episode, Mandelyn, John, and Rip break down the basics. Like what is genotype versus phenotype, dominant versus recessive? What is test mating? How to identify faults and disqualifications. You'll learn how to apply practical genetics to improve your flock and select quality birds.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Oh, I bet it is. That's why my birds are white.

Rip Stalvey (2):

White also. Yeah, but you got this too. We're working on that. So

Mandelyn Royal (2):

easier than lacing,

Rip Stalvey (2):

and I didn't mean that der, but there's trade offs no matter what we do.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Yeah. No matter what

John Gunterman (2):

I mean. There's just staining from their chest feathers dragging on their feet in water dish. Yeah. Man, my birds look a mess.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

It is mud season

John Gunterman (2):

Uhhuh, unless you're still frozen up there in Vermont. It depends on where you measure. Right now we got snow everywhere except for the road surfaces, which are mud. Yes.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Let's talk about what makes a good quality bird. What goes into that? Strong

Mandelyn Royal (2):

structure, even growth, not too fast, not too slow,

John Gunterman (2):

I've gotta default to the standard of perfection. What was the bird designed to do? What was its structure intended to be, and does it match that Still?

Rip Stalvey (2):

In the long run. It comes down to balancing genetics with practical selections because, and that's why getting some of these things are corrected. It's so difficult because you're selecting for one particular quality, but the genetics are just not there in that bird to make it happen. To bring it about and that's, breeding poultry is not for the faint of heart because it, it drive you nuts. No,

Mandelyn Royal (2):

yeah. You can't rush it, and you almost have to have a. Methodical approach to keeping within your flock goals. And always putting the bird first.

John Gunterman (2):

Yeah. And impeccable record keeping. You start seeing things pop up and you're going, Hey, I'm seeing this come, from only here. You can look at your records and go, okay, that was this cross and that was this cross to get to there. And then you can start backtracking and it. It can be frustrating sometimes to put a year or two into breeding in the wrong direction, but hopefully you have a couple of different lines or families or clans or whatever you wanna call them. So if that happens, you can always do a little reset and flush it out.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

And it's important to know also that it may take every bit of three generations or even five generations before any potential problems might be found. And I see a lot of people who source their birds and they bring them in from 2, 3, 4 different breeders and they build their flock from several different bloodlines and then they're immediately selling from those cross bloodlines that very next season. And then the people who got those birds breed them and they're waiting into that third generation. And now it's chaos in the genetics. And there's been no supply'cause love line crossing from the person they got theirs from. It's a whole can of worms that has this trickle down effect if you're not really sure on what you're producing and why you're producing it.

John Gunterman (2):

And every time it's an additional layer deeper into Pandora's box rather than applying a finer and finer sieve.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Yeah,

John Gunterman (2):

I

Rip Stalvey (2):

think that. The thing that frustrates people most about starting to breed poultry when they're first starting out and they don't realize it, what the cause was, but it's when you start with poor genetic quality birds, you will fight those problems for years before you ever get it worked out. Am I not right? Mandolin? You're

Mandelyn Royal (2):

absolutely right. I'm still fighting some little things, and I've been with this breed for eight years now.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Absolutely. But

Mandelyn Royal (2):

they're coming together. Just gimme another 10 years. They'll be great. I think they're a lot

Rip Stalvey (2):

better than you give'em credit for, to be honest with you. Recently, I'm my

Mandelyn Royal (2):

one more enemy

John Gunterman (2):

had the, oh yeah. I recently had the opportunity to meet the person that my line came from. They were the steward of it for about 30 years, and then when they retired it to my breeder who I've been working with. But I got to meet that person and really pick their brain about, what they were doing for all this time with that line and what their goals were and actually be able to share some, current notes, they were interested, if you leave your eggs for more than three days, do the birds go broody? I'm like, yeah. He's good.'cause that was important to them to not lose that broodiness. And he knows that. He's you know what? That came very specifically from a bird that I got from Gina Briscoe, back in. And he knew the date that he got that bird and who it came from. To very specifically get that broody quality

Mandelyn Royal (2):

well, and even with a limited experience I had from the one male I got from you, I could see decades in that bird and then going a generation and two generations ahead from him. It's still there. The slope of the tail, the way the feathers, it's still there, even though I'm trying to interrupt some of that with my own little science project. Sure.

John Gunterman (2):

It's because it's been so highly refined that those

Mandelyn Royal (2):

decades are still there three generations away. It's neat

John Gunterman (2):

That, and then Mark A. Good breeder. That's genetics, that's, that's heterogeneity amongst the flock. When you get to the point where, you know what, I can pretty much go out to my yard and choose any rooster and any hen and put'em together and know that I'm going to get a chick that looks like those two and looks like everybody else out in my yard.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

And that's ama, that's so rare to find now too.

John Gunterman (2):

You can only do it if you dedicated bloodlines are hard to find, working a dedicated bloodline that has, literally decades of work in it and that level of refinement.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Let me ask you guys a question and same question for our listeners too. If you're listening to is, as I ask this question, run it through your mind. Okay. What are some of the most surprising. Or frustrating even unexpected results you've seen in poultry breeding.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

I have a couple

Rip Stalvey (2):

and they were

Mandelyn Royal (2):

leg color that shouldn't have been anywhere near those genetics, but it snuck out anyways, but thankfully I know. Where Uhhuh, but it was a surprise because it wasn't shown in any of the birds prior. It snuck out later after the fact.

John Gunterman (2):

There's reports coming from the eastern townships of Quebec about the Santa Cla starting to get some blue tint in their shanks, which is not supposed to be there.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

It's not So that, and then how did it's not, and why, how

John Gunterman (2):

did it get there? There was a cross somewhere. We don't know. But it got in there somehow. So now it's gotta come back out.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Maybe they got meaty too.

John Gunterman (2):

I don't know.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

I'd be curious to know

Rip Stalvey (2):

another question that I get asked a lot by new breeders. What are some of the no, why did my chicks come out completely different from the parents? It depends, and it goes back to what are the genetics in your parents? They probably carry a lot of recessive traits. When they got together, Presto change. You had very different looking chicks.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

And what were the grandparents

Rip Stalvey (2):

exactly? It goes back great grandparents, generation grandparents. Were

Mandelyn Royal (2):

all four of them the same kind of bird, or was one of them a little different?

Rip Stalvey (2):

The genetics can seemingly just pop up outta nowhere, but it really doesn't because it's been buried in those birds over generations. But when things are just right. Ma'am, it pops up and sure. And then you got problems. But the advantage to that is when it pops up and it happens like that, then once you know it's in there, you can begin to work it out and eliminate it from your flock. Yeah, and

John Gunterman (2):

a great way to highlight these things is by close breeding or a closed breeding system. Because you're purposely stacking these recessive traits and basically taunting them to express themselves. So you can eradicate them, you

Mandelyn Royal (2):

can do a little sibling mating. You're not taunting. You'll see it, you'll see it quick too.

John Gunterman (2):

Yes. And that's great.'cause I don't have 30 years to put into my line. I'm relying on the previous 30 years and, just trying to hang on to that work and not mess it up right now.

Rip Stalvey (2):

And I don't want our listeners either to. And we've talked about recesses from a negative point of view, and they're certainly not there's some traits in our bird that are recessive traits, egg production, for example, and it takes refining those recessive traits to get really good egg layers. And there's others I just pull that one out for an example, but recessive. They no doubt about it. They can be our most problem causing thing to breed poultry, but they can also be the most rewarding things when we get the good Resus traits to line up properly and come out into adults.

John Gunterman (2):

I have

Rip Stalvey (2):

question and when you start, I have question

John Gunterman (2):

trap nesting and you can figure out which hen gives me three eggs before a pause and which hen gives me five eggs before a pause. There's some pretty strong evidence as to which one you'd probably wanna select for mating.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Yeah. What's your question, Mandy?

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Now if you go way back into the original poultry genetics like back to the original jungle foul, they were just seasonal layers. Like they didn't do year round laying, and they would've laid clutches of X number of eggs and then they would set, and maybe the seasons allow'em to get two or three batches in, but they were just seasonal layers. So now the poultry expectation for a chicken is to lay year round almost as nonstop as possible. And. That's a long way from a seasonal layer, like what they're capable of now in those laying breeds, man

Rip Stalvey (2):

Mandy, don't forget. Yeah. Yeah. They're really good layers. But a lot of the secret to having you around eggs is in how you manage your birds.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Yeah. With the lighting and nutrition, the lighting that feed and all that

Rip Stalvey (2):

kind of stuff. If you don't maximize or optimize your lighting and your nutritional programs you won't have year round layers.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Not after that first year. Nope.

Rip Stalvey (2):

But sometimes

Mandelyn Royal (2):

they do pretty good the first year. It's after that when they need a little more help.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Let's see. I've got, And you alluded to something there that a lot of folks overlook, and that's the importance of selecting for longevity. In their birds. That's not the case with the hybrid birds, the production birds, it's not important to them. For example, the meat birds, they're processed at eight weeks.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Yeah. There's no expected longevity there.

Rip Stalvey (2):

If you can get'em to eight weeks, you're done good. Egg layers on the other hand those really high producing birds. You gotta have the genetics, but you also got to have a well managed and tightly regulated management program to get those numbers.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

In the hybrid layers too, they're designed to be a relatively short term bird to maximize their first year production.

Rip Stalvey (2):

That's part of it. You know what the rest of it is.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

What

Rip Stalvey (2):

if they only produce for a year, then you gotta go back to the breeders to get more.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Yeah. Keep that cycle going.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Uhhuh, planned obsolescence. Pretty much. Absolutely. Pretty much. Okay, so

John Gunterman (2):

what is, what practically, let's talk about toes on the ground for chickens. What does the backyard breeder I, oh, I hate. Term, sorry.'cause that has such a negative term because it's not a

Mandelyn Royal (2):

negative term, but then it, it's been used that way to describe what

John Gunterman (2):

does the self sustaining homesteader small platform here. Small. Yeah. But we so I'm always looking sustainability. You need to be able to keep this going without reaching out and bringing in new genetics. To me, that's my very first criteria. But, and then after that, how do they make their selections and go forward?

Rip Stalvey (2):

To me it boils down to the first thing you select for are physical characteristics, body type ske, skeletal. Structure. That's the most important because without the skeletal support, you won't have good meat production. You won't have good expert egg production because you're just not capable of doing that. Okay. So type confirmation, whatever you wanna call it, that's the most important thing that you focus on.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

After that, I'd like to see health and longevity. And not hatch from'em too soon, like just because those hands are laying at six months old, that's not the best time to start hatching. You really wanna wait and have those girls prove that they can last and be productive. Get their laying history. Learn about'em before you start hatching from'em.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Some of the best birds I ever produced came from two and three and 4-year-old hens. And part of that is because by the time a female lives that long, okay, and you use her for breeding that long, you know precisely what she's capable of producing in chicks. The other side of that coin is reading from birds that, oh, will inherently. Build in longevity to your flock because if a bird stays healthy and productive, just stays alive for a long period of time. Yeah. Predator awareness alone. Shoe lasted

John Gunterman (2):

three years here. That's pretty darn good.

Rip Stalvey (2):

That's a foundation that's worth breeding on, or building on. Yeah.

John Gunterman (2):

A bird that stays alive just long enough to get your first. Set of eggs out of, and then keels over from, coronary issues is not a, that's enough for, I wanna be breeding from all

Mandelyn Royal (2):

the offspring too. Let's say I put a little test hatch of eggs in, but then I lost her a month later. But if I rule'em all out

Rip Stalvey (2):

all the old time master breeders that I ever knew, every single one of'em would never breed. From females less than 12 months old.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

I'm seeing why over the last several years.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Yeah,

Mandelyn Royal (2):

don't get in a hurry.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Breeding from one and two year and older birds is what by the time they hit that milestone is what they're going to be from then on out

Mandelyn Royal (2):

by two years old. They pretty much are exactly. What they're gonna be, and especially for looks too Sure, like just how they finished out in the tail set wing, set feather quality, comb sizes, all of that is mature at two years old. And when folks are going through their birds and sorting out their breeders at 16, 18, 20 weeks old and then leaving'em grow. Maybe you lose the looks if you selected that early and because by the time they're a year and a half, two years old, that bird's gonna look a lot different.

John Gunterman (2):

They haven't even gone through their first,

Mandelyn Royal (2):

they don't even have their big kid feathers yet. So

John Gunterman (2):

there, there's no way to know, is, do they molt consistently with the rest of the flock? We're looking for the heterogeneity. How quickly do they drop their feathers? How quickly do they shed their weight? And how quickly can you get'em back on feed and into production Again, you can't possibly know any of those things before it happens.

Rip Stalvey (2):

And John mentioned this earlier and we just zoomed right past it and didn't give it as much due as it should have. The importance of record keeping. I just cannot overstress that enough. I'll guarantee you, if you're reading from Repair Trio Birds, yeah, you can probably track it for a couple of years, but sooner or later you're gonna get to the point you can't remember it all. It's important to know. What's behind your birds? In other words, what did the parents look like? What did the grandparents look like? What did the great grandparents look like? When you get to the point that you're answering those questions, you've got a very uniform flock of birds. And you can't do it unless you keep good records. And that's being able to tell one bird from the other. When you get'em, start getting'em looking uniform, it can be hard. Sure. That gives you all your production data. The health data, the whole nine yards. And that's a big part of the breeder's puzzle. If there's, if they're serious breeders, that's a big part of what they need to help move forward. How about some of these questions, and I've heard'em all, but I want to get your, you guys take on it. I frequently get off or I guess ask these questions. Can I breed my own birds without understanding genetics? Madeleine,

you can, and I bet you learn a lot about'em after the fact.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

As soon as you start having questions come up from what exactly you hatched. Now, I wouldn't call it breeding without any genetic knowledge. You're pretty much just hatching eggs. And the questions you come up with after that hatch and how deep you go into it after that's when you start maybe taking up breathing. For real.

Rip Stalvey (2):

I found out when I, that's how

John Gunterman (2):

most people get there. They go, oh, how'd that happen? They do a little research like, oh, this is cool. Yeah,

Mandelyn Royal (2):

they hatch some eggs and go, wait a minute.

Rip Stalvey (2):

I found out after I'd been doing this about two years. That I didn't know nearly enough information to keep doing it for much longer. It's an eyeopener, but it's true.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

It really is. That happened to me. I was just hatching along and then all of a sudden, oh, you know what? Breeding matters. Oh, there's stuff to learn. Oh, there's entire processes for all these different eventualities and there's all these different methods.

Rip Stalvey (2):

John, here's a good question for you. Yes, sir. Another question I get asked, what? What should I look for in my flock when selecting breeding stock? What would be your advice?

John Gunterman (2):

Heterogeneity, meaning they all look very similar. Like you drive by and go, oh, they look like they're related. You drive by a family reunion. And you go, oh, those people all look different, but they all look very similar and that, that's what I'm looking for, that they all look very similar.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

And that's what builds your flock consistency.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Yes. Yes, absolutely. Madeline. Here's a question for you. Why did my chicks look different from the parent birds? I don't get it.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Depending on the parents, they might have different genetics behind them or pretty similar themselves, but they may be hiding some recessives that are sneaking through from grandparents and great-grandparents and on back through there. So it just depends on. How those genetics line up in the individual chicks. Now think of your day old chicks. They're like little lottery tickets. You put a dozen eggs in the incubator, you're gonna get 12 different results and you don't even get to scratch off those lottery tickets until those birds are grown and you actually get to see what you're looking at. So just because someone may be advertising, show quality eggs. No, there's no such thing as that. Each little lottery ticket chick needs time to grow up and show you exactly what they inherited, and then you'll have to figure out if they breed that same thing forward again, or if they breed forward some funny stuff.

John Gunterman (2):

Not forgetting that. Everything about their husbandry affects their phenotypical expression as well. So whether it works for you and your location is what you're looking for.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

And then the nutrition and all of that,

John Gunterman (2):

it's just everything,

Mandelyn Royal (2):

A lot of parts and pieces. Here's

Rip Stalvey (2):

a question, and I'd like for both of you to answer this, John, we can start with you, but how do I prevent unwanted traits from popping up? Force them to

John Gunterman (2):

and root them out. That's how I do it. Line breeding, close breeding, whatever you wanna call it. Allele stacking. I wanna. Force these guys through a genetic bottleneck, so to speak. You know that anybody who's been in the military will cringe when they hear I'm a filter, not a pump.'cause our recruit division commanders, drill instructors, we heard that all the time, but that's how I view it. I'm a filter, not a pump. What would you tell to filter everything out?

Mandelyn Royal (2):

I would suggest getting stock that has been systematically bred for decades to reduce the odds of having any stuff come up because that work was already done. And I would advise against Bloodline crosses because that's exactly how that'll bring those traits. The more diversity you have, the more. Diversity you're gonna see. And sometimes it's a good thing and sometimes it's an unwanted trait that pops out instead. Otherwise, you're gonna have to do what John suggested, which is force that stuff out and just breed right on past it and may the strongest survive.

John Gunterman (2):

But if it's already there or it's already there, if that work has already been, sorry, if the work has already been done by, decades of selective breeding, we're really not bringing much new to the surface by doing.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

There shouldn't be many surprises. No. Only if it gets interrupted. With Bloodline Cross, or, which is why

John Gunterman (2):

it's so important to be able to have a reach back to your bloodline or maybe a reach forward, being able to reach out to people that you sold your genetics to and you trust them and they've, asked you for your selection advice and you've, actually established, Hey, if I ever get in trouble, I want to be able to get some eggs back from you. And I'd like to feel comfortable that your eggs are something that I actually want back.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

And I never really valued having just one breed the way that I value that now.'cause there can be a lot of pitfalls in raising multiple breeds.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Oh boy. For

Mandelyn Royal (2):

example, did you put a cover over all your pens or can a MR from three pens down interrupt what you have going on in a different pen? There are you free ranging, and then someone left a gate open and now they're all ranging together. But having just one breed is like genetic insurance to prevent that. Sure. And then I also have covered runs to make sure,

John Gunterman (2):

I've got I recently just did get a rooster. But I was able to reach out to somebody and it was strange how far these birds had migrated, so to speak. Somebody that I sold some birds to two years ago had'em for a while, then sold them to somebody else, and they've dwindled down. But hearing that. These birds are still out there in the wild, so to speak, at three years of age and still producing. They're just coming back into lay and I'm like, oh, really? Could I possibly buy those birds back or have them back to, set with my rooster and I'll be happy to give you that bird back when I'm done with her and some eggs.

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Nice.

Rip Stalvey (2):

We're getting down to the time to say goodbye, but before we do. I think we all ought to share some thoughts. If I could say just one thing, and it's hard for me to do just one thing, but, and that's to encourage our listeners if they're serious about breeding, spend time observing your birds. Not just looking at'em, handling them, evaluating them, go over'em with a fine tooth comb. That's when I finally started making some progress is when I started practicing that mandolin. What would your advice be?

Mandelyn Royal (2):

Pretty similar to yours, except I turn it into a little bit of a game. You know that game photo hunt where you're looking for what's different from one image to another? Do that to your birds. Every last little detail, the shape of the beak, the color of the beak, the comb the whole thing. Head to tail down to their toes, play some photo hunt with them and really pick'em apart. And then play the other fun game of compensation mating and figuring out which one actually belongs with this bird or this other bird for their mate. If you have more than one male. Who are his best mates from the females you have available. So do a little photo hunt, figure out some compensation, matings, and then just to teach yourself a little more, switch'em, see if your results are the same, similar, or different. Because all of those little experiences with every single batch of chicks, it's gonna teach you something.

John Gunterman (2):

John, what's your thoughts? Right now I've got that Sesame Street song stuck in my head. Thanks, Mandy. One of these things is not like the others but I, it's because I sing that to myself when I'm looking at the flock. I'm always going, wait that's different. Oh. But I'm always looking for reasons to disqualify my birds. So I'm always left with the best. And that, I think, to me, that's my most important takeaway. I'll use the analogy'cause I understand it best in forestry management, same as flock management. We're going in and we're harvesting well, single tree selection, worst first management. So we're always high grading our forest. If we take that same approach to our flock, we're doing single bird selection worst. First, we're always leaving ourselves with the highest quality and that's what you wanna be breeding from. I agree. I do

Mandelyn Royal (2):

the worst first. That's a really effective method, especially if I can tell my rooster Coop's gonna get a little crowded.'cause I have, 30, 10 week old boys in there and I know in six weeks time it's gonna be too tight and too crowded. So what do I do? I go in there and find the worst five and then I go through and find the next worst five. Now everybody has enough space

John Gunterman (2):

and following the rule of 10 that we've talked about, we should have adequate selection numbers to keep us going in a positive direction.

Rip Stalvey (2):

Oh gosh, folks, I have had a lot of fun doing this episode and I appreciate our listeners joining us. I hope you've learned from it as well. I know every time I get together with Madeline and John, I learn something from them. I just enjoy. Bouncing ideas off of'em and hearing what their take on something is. It's just a real pleasure. And if you are fortunate enough to have friends like I do, and John and Mantle and where you can bounce ideas and ask questions and all that, you are really blessed to have that as a resource. But before we go, I just want to remind folks. If you're listening for the first time I'd encourage you to subscribe to the podcast.

Alex:

Before we go, we would like to ask you to leave us a review and connect with us online. Or just drop us a note. Our email address is in the show notes. We'd be happy to hear from you. Until next time, we hope you keep working with your birds, keep enjoying your birds, and have a great day. We’ll talk to you next week.

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John Gunterman

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Mandelyn Royal

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Rip Stalvey

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