Episode #3 Emily Zou: Where Are You Planted

Creating psychological spaces that transcend reality using found objects, fabrics, and basically trash Emily Zou wanders amongst the myriad of mental and physical constructs that litter our landscapes. Both physical and emotionally Emily shares her mental health struggles. How they shape how she lives, and draw the energy within her to reshape what we throw away, she gives a new life.

Zou labored these thrown away items not simply by a straight trajectory at school. But rather a labor of anxious anxiety she found during the dark days of the COVID Pandemic. Where many Artists had an incredible amount of time to linger, reflect, and try new creative avenues. While at the same time she was discovering her own sadness, Zou transformed it into a useful energy that she wrapped, and combines to create huge sculptures of reclaimed items to have a visionary new beginning.

Twisting and refashioning her creations repeatedly. Her creative practice becomes therapeutic, creating a sense of release. A physical and emotional remapping and reawakening of the materials she uses. They create a new dialogue of semblances and shapes; colours and shadows that becomes a magical new language that reinterprets our world as it is today. From the climate crisis to more personal items that take on new meanings because of their new context.

Emily Zou Podcast Interview Credits:
Audio Links from https://freemusicarchive.org/
Podcast by Carolyn Botelho

Connect with Emily Zou:

https://emilyzouart.format.com/contact

Podcast Interview Credits:
Audio Links from https://freemusicarchive.org/
Podcast by Carolyn Botelho

Transcript

(0:06 - 0:27)

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Creatively Thinking Podcast. Join Carolyn Botelho as she uncovers the inspirations behind some incredibly creative minds that are orbiting our local communities. Hi Emily Zhao, I'm very excited to meet you.

(0:27 - 0:45)

You are my first sculptor and one whom I love your work, which we will get into shortly. You are a multidisciplinary artist, sculptor, illustrator, painter, and maker of earrings. That's quite a long list of professions.

(0:47 - 1:00)

You are also a Canadian Chinese artist based in Toronto. And you are also an Ontario College of Art and Design University graduate. That's very impressive.

(1:00 - 1:09)

All that stuff right there. Thank you. I wouldn't say professions, but more so skills.

(1:09 - 1:44)

You know, I'm working up to that full-time artist level, but you know, doing side jobs and things like that to balance it out as well. I like to ask every artist, what led them down this career path? Was it your desire to express your emotional insights? Working with your hands or something else? Well, I started doing art or I fell in love with art at a very, very young age. It was definitely because of my mom.

(1:44 - 2:08)

She was the one who taught me how to, well, even before kindergarten, she was teaching me a little bit of writing, a little bit of like drawing. And I remember having this book that had a space, an empty space on top and then a bunch of lines on the bottom. You're supposed to draw a picture on top and then write a little something about it.

(2:08 - 2:19)

But I didn't really like the writing and I just kept drawing. And even into kindergarten, I remember me and one other classmate. Her name was Janet, I think.

(2:20 - 2:39)

I remember being quite competitive with her in terms of getting praise from the teacher and wanting to be like the best artist in the class. And so the fire was definitely there. And yeah, I guess what led me down this career path, definitely a lifelong love for it.

(2:39 - 3:00)

I think early on in my life, I didn't have a lot of words to express big emotions. And so I definitely found peace and solace and safety in just drawing or doing crafts and things like that. And then, yeah, that continued on.

(3:00 - 3:31)

And then I went to OCAD. And it was a way to work through big emotions that I was often not allowed to express or discourage from expressing, you know, coming from a Canadian-Chinese background, also like very conservative. There's not a lot of vocabulary in the language itself that talks about emotions, and I think as a result, it affects, you know, the collective behavior.

(3:32 - 4:04)

And I guess in the Chinese culture as well, it's seen as weak to be emotional. And so it's strong if you're able to, I guess, yeah, almost like suppress your emotions in a way and just like work through them in that way. But because of my big emotions and because people around me, caregivers, lots of adults in my life, too, kept telling me I was just too sensitive and that I had to be like a big girl or whatever.

(4:06 - 4:17)

I became very anxious, socially anxious as well. I didn't really know how to talk to people, even fearing them. Yeah, art was my safe space.

(4:18 - 4:33)

Working with my hands was like my language. Yeah, we can continue. Well, yeah, it sounds like just what you're saying about the people and the adults in your life, and it sounds like they were.

(4:34 - 5:19)

Kind of really discouraging, just dealing with things, and so you found a way to channel that and and just yeah, just just do something more positive with it and not because it sounds like suppressing all of that just yeah, it sounds like that's what they wanted, but it's like how you how you handled it was much better. Yes, but I was also very lucky because I'm like, of course, it's much better now. And of course, like, because it's such a collective way of thinking, it's not like you can even blame anyone, but but you can definitely blame, I guess, this the cultural attitude itself and maybe how it came to be.

(5:20 - 5:40)

So I was very blessed. Of course, it's much better now. And of course, like, because it's such a collective way of thinking, it's not like you can even blame anyone, but but you can definitely blame, I guess, this the cultural attitude itself and maybe how it came to be.

(5:41 - 6:09)

So I was very blessed because my mom, she was she was always so supportive in all my creative endeavors. If I ever wanted to do like origami or kirigami or just scrapbooking and things like that, my mom would always take me to Michael's and she would buy me. Yeah, we would take usually like a monthly, bimonthly trip to Michael's and even just walk around, even if we weren't getting anything because she knew I loved it so much.

(6:11 - 6:38)

And yeah, I find that in the Chinese community sometimes if even if they're unable to talk about emotions in that way, you know, they show love, of course, in other ways. Sometimes it's like, well, among like the Chinese, among the Chinese is very. It's very common to cut up fruit and then give it to your kid or give it to a friend or whatever to show like to show love.

(6:39 - 7:19)

It's they often value acts of, yeah, I guess, acts of service. Yeah, things like that. Your website states your practice is deeply rooted in a lifelong struggle with mental health.

Can you share with our audience? If this is something you were able to manage and incorporate as a tool to aid in your creative practice. Yeah, so. Yeah, beginning from a young age, I definitely had undiagnosed anxiety.

(7:21 - 7:46)

And there were many, I guess, you know, complex traumas that occurred. And so I really only actually started making friends and things like that and making stronger, like a stronger, tight knit group of friends when I entered university. I even had a fear of men for a long time and all these all these kinds of things.

(7:46 - 8:15)

And so, yeah, I always used art to channel these really difficult feelings. And I think in my creative practice now, like I still have very big emotions and it's easier to verbalize them now. But I think that even when, like it's even in conversation, sometimes it can be easy to filter what you're talking about.

(8:15 - 8:44)

But when I'm with my art, I can, I can be as wild or as destructive as I want to be. And I think that in my current practice and how it's evolved in the world of sculpture and these sculptures that are made out of found objects and trash and garbage, it's very easy to channel feelings like anger, which is one of those feelings that I'm uncomfortable with. Because of my own.

(8:44 - 9:00)

I think most people are. Yes. Yeah, I guess being uncomfortable with anger, sometimes I like to channel that into, you know, cutting up things, staple gunning things, ripping things up in very violent but cathartic ways.

(9:00 - 9:12)

So I love collecting fabric, jackets, clothes, even old underwear and socks and whatnot. And I have a really good time. I can just rip things for hours.

(9:15 - 9:30)

That's a good way to, yeah, just process things. Yes. Your work really captivated me when I discovered it on the outdoor art exhibition in Nathan Phillips Square in Toronto.

(9:30 - 9:55)

Which you just finished, I think, a week ago. And how did that actually go? Was this your first time doing this fair? And so this is technically third time, but second time in person. The first time that I participated in the Toronto Outdoor Art Fair was in 2021.

(9:56 - 10:14)

But, you know, because of COVID and whatnot, I think it was the second year that the fair was entirely online. And so that was my first experience. But then my first experience in person at Nathan Phillips Square was in 2023.

(10:15 - 10:31)

And yeah, it was also my first time doing an art fair in general. So doing it this year was, you know, still stressful, of course, leading up to the actual fair. But it was easier to plan.

(10:31 - 11:09)

You know, you've done it before. So you have all the materials that you need to hang everything. You have your, you know, Square Eater to take payments, you have your invoices and your printed CV and business cards and all those little things that you need beside the artwork itself.

And I found that talking to people also was so much easier because you're talking to, you know, hundreds, even like maybe even like thousands of people in these three days. And yeah, well, after the fair, I definitely crashed. I'm very much an introvert.

(11:09 - 11:40)

So it's I think for a lot of artists, too, it's quite unnatural in a way to be, I guess, yeah, to be like the spokesperson for three full days and just talking nonstop. It is very unnatural when you're usually by yourself in the studio and being very happily a hermit. Yeah, I was going to say that would be overwhelming for three full days, right? Yeah, definitely overwhelming, but also rewarding.

(11:41 - 12:27)

You get to meet so many weird and quirky people, but also just, I guess, Toronto as a multicultural society, it's it's so beautiful to witness that. Yeah, and I feel like every time I participate in these fairs or attend these larger art shows, it really gives me a sense of purpose, especially when you, you know, when you're constantly questioning, like, what am I doing with my life? And you can get stuck in like spirals and loops of existential thoughts. But then you see all these people who connect with your work, you know, who want to take photos of your work, who come by and they like they want to share their own story with my mental health or making art from trash or they just want to hear the story.

(12:28 - 12:46)

And I think that with art, people love connecting with the stories, with the artists themselves, like that human and authentic element. And yeah, although exhausting, I would totally do these fairs again and again. The people really make it special.

(12:46 - 13:07)

I even had, I think there's this little girl, she is going on to grade four this year. But last year, she bought one of my works through the budding art buyers program with the Toronto Ota Art Fair. Last year was the first year they had the budding art buyer program, and it's for kids 14 and under.

(13:08 - 13:35)

And they can buy donated artworks from the participating artists, and these donated artworks would be priced like $20 and under to make it really accessible. She was so happy with this little pink flower watercolour painting I had done sort of mindlessly over over seven years ago. And she came like skipping towards my booth, like screaming to her mom, like, oh, my God, that's the artist.

(13:35 - 13:44)

And she was like asking for a photo and everything. And this year she also came by. She was like, oh, my gosh, do you remember me? I was like, of course I remember you.

(13:44 - 14:00)

It's like you were the highlight of my whole experience last year. And I think, yeah, it's definitely the human element and inspiring kids with a lot of my sculptures, too. I have two that are quite large, about at least five feet five.

(14:01 - 14:14)

So I think one of them is also six feet tall. So to the kids, a lot of my sculptures are just huge, larger than life. And yeah, I love to just show them the artwork.

(14:15 - 15:02)

I like sort of walking them around and asking them, so like, what objects do you see hidden in my sculptures? And they love pointing things out like, oh, this is a pen or is that like a snowflake? And I'm like, yeah, that's a snowflake stencil. Or like, is that part of a jean jacket? Is that a comb? And yeah, they feel inspired, too. And it's my goal as well to help to inspire people to sort of see materials in a different way, you know, challenging our definition of trash and garbage and maybe seeing these materials as, hey, maybe we can give it a second life, especially in this culture that is very much overconsuming and disposing of things so easily.

(15:03 - 16:05)

Yeah, the disposable mentality, I totally understand you, yeah. And I'm definitely not perfect, like my studio, like, of course, I'm still producing so much garbage. But like from that, I'm definitely trying my best to, you know, even taking like empty, empty cans of like, like bubbly or the bags, the mesh bags from clementines.

And, you know, I just like collecting those things if I can reduce my waste in little ways that I guess, you know, every little bit helps, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, and that connection you were talking about with the kids and just the other patrons sort of at the Toronto Outdoor Art Exhibit, that's a big thing, right? That's what people are wanting is that connection with the artist, you know, like you were saying, the like talking about the work and everything and just how they have that connection with the artist.

(16:05 - 16:30)

And it's important. I think that's why the art and culture sector exists also. Well, I guess it gives meaning to life and it is a beautiful, I guess it's a beautiful way for people to come together and kind of celebrate life since art in many ways is a reflection of life.

(16:30 - 17:04)

And for a lot of people, too, I think with my work, because it is so heavily about mental health, a lot of people, once they hear my story, they open up about their own mental health journeys and the own darkness that they have in their lives. And that is always extremely touching because, you know, not everyone feels safe to talk about these things. Maybe they come from a culture where it's not often talked about or maybe they just maybe they don't have the supports in their life to talk about that.

(17:05 - 17:34)

And so in a way, I see my art as like a starting point to foster discussion and connection about these difficult topics. There's this beautiful. Quote, I think it was Mark Rothko who said this in an interview, so I was watching this video from the School of Life and Alan de Botton, he was talking about, yeah, this beautiful thing that Mark Rothko said.

(17:35 - 17:40)

And like Mark Rothko, I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work. Yeah. Yeah, I know Mark Rothko.

(17:41 - 18:05)

Yeah. Yes. Right.

Giant pieces and these just beautiful washes of color. And like these are giant pieces, too. But yeah, in an interview once Mark was asked, like, so what is your work about? And Mark, he kept, you know, using art jargon, avoiding the question directly.

(18:06 - 18:39)

And then the interviewer again is like, so what is your art really about? And then Mark, he grew impatient and he said, and I guess I paraphrase in a nutshell, it's like, I've got sadness in me and you you've got sadness in you. And art is where we come together to share our sadness and therefore we can be less sad because of it. And so, yeah, I kind of see that as like, hey, I've got sadness in me.

(18:40 - 19:01)

I think the people who go up to me often have sadness in them, too. And then we talk about it and then therefore we can be just a little bit less sad. How did your technique develop by using everyday items that eventually become polished pieces that drip dynamic energy? Like that just that just sounds so, so nice.

(19:01 - 19:36)

But I'm like, hmm, but important question, because I realize like I didn't even like really introduce much of myself at the beginning or about my art practice. But yeah, the main works that I guess the ones that you saw on the Toronto Outdoor website, all these sculptures, yeah, they're made out of trash, found objects, reclaimed objects. And it was during COVID, in 2020, when I started exploring, I guess, whatever methodologies I'm now using in my current sculptural work.

(19:37 - 19:53)

Before COVID, I was at OCAD, so I was at OCAD from 2015 to 2020. And I was in the drawing and painting program. And yeah, basically my work was mostly drawing, painting, illustration.

(19:54 - 20:06)

And then COVID happened, so, you know, I never got the proper graduation or anything. It was just a YouTube video. I remember eating cookies in my pajamas that morning, just watching names scroll by.

(20:06 - 20:24)

But yes, just graduated during COVID, 2020, and I couldn't find a job and I had all the time in the world. And so I was also dealing with big emotions. And so although, of course, COVID, that's like truly devastating.

(20:24 - 20:38)

And there's so much loss during that time. But for a lot of artists, too, it was just a space to experiment, finally. I guess in ways that they wouldn't have.

(20:39 - 21:04)

And we'll be right back. You know, when you're so caught up in just the patterns and repetition of life. But suddenly I had all this time and I was surrounded by all this, I guess, stuff that I had collected and hoarded over the years, as many artists do.

(21:04 - 21:25)

We're a bit of hoarders. But then I remember sitting there and just thinking, oh, my gosh, how much longer is COVID going to be? I'm just surrounded by so much stuff that it's definitely affecting my mental health. But I don't want to throw anything away because the climate crisis is becoming so prominent on the news and I don't want to be a horrible person.

(21:26 - 21:42)

And I was also at the time exploring veganism as well. And so I was, yeah, I just did not want to throw these things away as I was thinking about every little animal, every seahorse or sea turtle that would get caught in a mesh bag. And so I looked at this, like a literal landfill in my apartment.

(21:43 - 21:58)

And I had these old stretchers that I had made and also saved from my time at OCAD. And I ripped off old paintings off of them that I didn't like. And I ripped canvas and old bedsheets and fabrics just into strips.

(21:59 - 22:18)

And then I started to just wind and tie things around very obsessively. And it was so cathartic because I'd often find myself hours later just still tying and ripping and tying more things together. And I would feel so much better also because of it.

(22:19 - 22:39)

And yeah, it was about a year and a half, I think I was like unemployed. And so during that time, I kind of treated it as an artist residency. And I made, I really dove into these, I guess, found object trash sculptures.

(22:40 - 22:53)

And yeah, to this day, I still do this work. I wouldn't say that. Yeah, I definitely did not learn these techniques at OCAD or anything.

(22:53 - 23:11)

It was just very much, I had the time and I had materials. And so, yeah, I just tie things and if they connect, and if the tension keeps them in place, then I'm like, yeah, it works. And sometimes there's pieces here and there that even snap.

(23:11 - 24:06)

And so I just kind of go in and maybe stick like a Swiffer Sweeper broom in there or an old paintbrush or something to try to keep things in place. And so, yeah. Yes, it sounds very organic, just how it kind of happened, right, during a really sort of stressful, highly emotional sort of moment with the whole pandemic, right? It was like you said, it was a time for not just artists, but just everybody to like reflect and sort of just realize and, you know, try new things and experiment and just have more time to, yeah, people were changing their houses and doing gardens and taking up all different kinds of things that they've never tried before.

(24:06 - 24:35)

I think so many people were also doing house renovations, painting their walls and whatnot. Just I think people started realizing more the impact of having maybe clean or aesthetic space. It really changed, I guess, how we viewed our relationship, like with our the office space at home, the need to have work spaces at home and to make it a safe haven, especially since we didn't know when COVID would end.

(24:36 - 24:45)

So might as well make our spaces a little bit nicer. So our mental health wouldn't suffer as much. Exactly, yeah.

(24:46 - 25:51)

So I think you kind of answered question four already, where I'm asking you, how did this technique develop? Because it didn't come from China. Although I love following a bunch of Chinese and also other, yeah, I guess some Japanese artists as well. I find that their work is like so intricate and just technically so superior to anything I've ever seen.

And this, I guess, yeah, the styles and the love for, I guess, such intricate, I guess, work sprouted from definitely childhood. I think one thing I owe to my mom as well is that she, she read so many story books, children books to me, and I loved, loved children's illustrations so much, especially the highly detailed ones. And I would often get lost in search and find books too.

(25:52 - 26:08)

And yeah, I think as someone who, I definitely feel like I have maybe undiagnosed ADHD, but I don't know. But I feel like this maybe lack of focus sometimes. It also shows in my art because I get so bored easily.

(26:09 - 26:18)

I like a process that's very spontaneous. I like working with just this variety, this variety of materials. Yes, it keeps.

(26:18 - 26:30)

That does not show. No, but that does not show that you're not focused. It shows you're incredibly focused to be able to put all of these items so intrinsically together that they're just, yeah, that they all hold together.

(26:30 - 26:38)

Like when you say you don't have focus, I'm like, wow. And when I see your drawings, I'm like, she says no focus. Oh, man, to do this.

(26:39 - 26:47)

I think that's more of like, maybe just like this weird obsessive thing. Like maybe, yeah, I can focus on some things. If it's reading, not as much.

(26:48 - 27:02)

But if it's like making art, definitely. I guess because I just love it so much. And yeah, I love to this day, I still love collecting and even just going to bookstores and looking at children's book illustrations.

(27:03 - 27:18)

And yeah, a lot of my illustrative work is like that, too, just highly detailed and also in the sculptural work. I just love all that detail. And I love it when people can linger for a long time and just try to figure out what it is and try to figure out what isn't there.

(27:18 - 27:32)

I like recreating that search and find experience. And yeah, you're saying that you like to just look at children's illustrations like that's you putting it in your head for later, you know, as sort of like a reference. That's a good idea.

(27:32 - 27:55)

Yes. I especially love the ones. Well, I can't think of like a specific book in my head, but especially if they're like a cross section of maybe a house or a mansion or some building and then it shows all these different rooms like stairs and ladders and just little tableaus of people doing different things in each room.

(27:55 - 28:14)

And they're just maybe messy and cluttered. It's just so fun. And I think as a kid, I often like to imagine myself in these spaces and these search and find spaces, I guess is my form of escapism to escape maybe the mundanity of life was how I saw it at the time.

(28:15 - 28:44)

And yeah, I think I had a very vibrant inner world. And even before sleeping, I would love to look at children's book illustrations, just imagine myself inside of them. Yeah.

Imagine myself in like a different world. When we first spoke, you mentioned how you were familiar with four of my previous guests. Ya Tony, Ya Tony, Kesley, James Flux and Gwen Tooth.

(28:44 - 29:36)

Are you familiar with them from group shows or do you see your work as having aspects of all of these distinctly different artists? I mean, you can generally say they're abstract, but compared to your unique style, I cannot see a correlation. Oh, well, it was definitely group shows. Well, first with, I think it was, ya Tony, I think it was the Toronto Outdoor Art Fair last year.

I could be wrong, but I remember we spoke briefly and we all follow each other on Instagram too. And I think like the art world, the more you kind of show your work at different galleries and whatnot, or yeah, even just online, you start seeing that like 15 of my friends follow you already. Or it's like, yeah, we've like everyone is.

(29:37 - 30:00)

It's a it's a more tight knit community maybe than we realize. So, yeah, Tony was at TOAF, Kaylee, we I met Kaylee when we were both showing our work at the grand opening exhibition of the new gallery, the Jackaloke, which is I think out in the beaches. And so that was how we first met.

(30:00 - 30:18)

And then it was pretty funny because I think it was just a month or two months later, we were in another exhibition together, but at Latcham Art Centre in Stouffville for a juried exhibition. And yeah, we're I think we're around the same age as well. So like we we hit it off very quickly.

(30:19 - 30:40)

And then James Flux, it was during the COVID. I remember like James Flux just sent me, I guess, because, you know, during COVID, a lot of artists in the artist circles, we were constantly. Well, using Instagram, of course, as a platform to support other artists or even like creating online exhibitions and things like that.

(30:41 - 30:56)

And so I think that was how I made a lot of new connections as well. So James Flux, he shared one of my artworks, I think, on one of his stories. And yeah, then that was how we kind of got into the correspondence.

(30:56 - 31:07)

And then Gwen Tooth, we were both. I was a member of Propeller Art Gallery in 2022 and 2023. And yeah, Gwen Tooth is also a member there.

(31:07 - 31:18)

And I think Gwen got a solo show. And it was one of the first exhibitions that I got to help install. And so that was a good experience.

(31:18 - 31:47)

Yeah, we've spoken a few times as well. Do your works begin with a concept or the mediums and how you explore your emotional insights while working? Is there a space where they connect emotionally or are your works moments or memories of experience? And I guess it depends on which medium I'm working with. If it's sculpture, it is very spontaneous.

(31:49 - 32:17)

I often just find a stretcher hanging around my apartment and then I'll just begin working from there. And because the sculptures are often many month long endeavors, I guess I take whatever experiences and emotions that I am going through throughout these months and channeling it into the work. And so it was sort of kind of like one of my larger sculptures.

(32:17 - 32:33)

That one took about six months to do. I even had one of my earliest pieces that I worked on in the span of two years. And for none of them, I had an image in my head of what it would be.

(32:33 - 32:56)

It was very much just I just wanted to tie things together and make them grow. So that was my approach and still is my approach for sculpture. In terms of my illustrations, I do have a series that started in 2018, going on into 2020.

(32:56 - 33:25)

It was called a Psycho-Sociological Diary, and these ones were very much about, I guess they're very diaristic in a way, like visual diaries for me. Because 2018 was the year I was, when I began becoming very depressed and clinically depressed as well. And I challenged myself to do like a drawing a day.

(33:26 - 33:51)

And then in 2019, I went to Scotland and I did an exchange program there. And because it was an exchange program, I decided to work just on drawing to make, of course, transferring materials and whatnot so much easier, since it is very hard. And I don't think they allow paint or anything on flights.

(33:51 - 34:15)

I think they say it's like an explosive hazard or whatnot. And so I just focused primarily on drawing at that time. And I used drawing as a way to record the spaces around me, often drawing multiple images or multiple scenarios or what I saw onto one drawing.

(34:15 - 34:33)

And so the drawings end up being almost like these collages, but no actual paper collage or anything, just drawing, but collages of these experiences. And yeah, they're very, very emotional. At the time, I was very emotional.

(34:33 - 35:05)

It was like pre-medications and everything as well. And Scotland was a huge, a huge paradigm shift for me in just like terms of values and whatnot. Since it was my first time living outside of the country and I wasn't in, I guess, my original framework or like the Chinese community that I grew up in, in like Richmond Hill and Markham.

(35:06 - 35:24)

And so it was the first time I was friends with a large group of like white people, really. And yeah, it was it was refreshing, like it was refreshing in a way. They helped me.

(35:24 - 36:01)

I think they helped me both appreciate my own culture more, but also I was able to take things maybe from their way of existing in the world as well to make me a happier, more well-rounded person. And it was in Scotland, too, I really started to, I think I was given the space by some of my friends to just feel my emotions. And during times when I was having a depressive episode, I would constantly apologize to one of my friends, Elisa, and she would ask me, like, why are you apologizing? Like, you shouldn't be apologizing.

(36:02 - 36:08)

This is what friends are for. Like, we're here for you in the sad moments and also in the happy moments. And I know that you would do that for me.

(36:08 - 36:22)

And I was like, I don't need to be ashamed for like being sad or melancholic or whatnot. And so, yeah, it was a huge pivot in my life. In terms of mental health.

(36:25 - 36:40)

Yeah. Yeah, that friend of yours sounds like a really good friend to be to be saying that because, you know, there are some friends, they just, you know, they're not really your friends if they just kind of take off when, you know, you're in those difficult moments. Yes, very much.

(36:41 - 37:04)

It's good to know that you have a friend like that that's there through thick and thin, right? And I think starting from that point on, too, I started connecting more with. My OCAD friends and everything, too, because I was very socially anxious for a long time, but going to Scotland by myself. You know, I was on my own, and so it was the first time where I felt like I can just be anyone I want to be.

(37:05 - 37:18)

And it, of course, helped me get out of my shell and start talking to people. And so, yeah, that whole Scotland experience made me a more well-rounded person and helped me finally have a social life. Yeah.

(37:20 - 37:42)

Yeah, a lot. I know it sounds so cliche, like people thinking like, oh, like, you know, and very privileged as well, being able to go broad and study even for a term. I was very lucky that I got many scholarships and they covered like plane ride and they covered a lot of the rent there as well.

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And so these major costs were all covered. And so, yeah, I was very blessed. And I acknowledge that.

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Yeah, it's a privilege even to do well in school if you don't have to work as many hours, that's a privilege, right? Looking at your sculptural installation pieces, I can see they all share a kinship to patterns on how the mediums you use connect and flow using an incredible amount of texture. Is this reference to texture something you use from your memories or is it a way in which you filter your mental health through your art? I think it's very much, yeah, a way to like filter through my mental health. I also, I guess, yeah, I love collecting found objects because I love the forms that they have and I do want to keep that.

(38:46 - 39:15)

And I think I've always just loved texture, too, even in painting and whatnot. I've always loved very sculptural paintings, maybe work, not concrete, but yes, like some artists, too, and they put concrete and like plaster, that's it. They put like plaster into their work and the art, it's so visceral and it's like this beautiful combination of 2D and 3D and more digital artwork.

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And I've also tried the graphic design route, but it did not work for me. I love that physical relationship with material and objects. And I think in a way it's, yeah, it's just very cathartic.

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I love feeling things. As a kid, I once, I was at the AGO and I think it was my first visit to the AGO ever. So I didn't exactly have a concept of do not touch the artwork.

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And so there was this exhibition by A Wei Wei and there's this giant slab, like this giant cube. I don't know, maybe it was like a metal or something. I remember going to that cube and being so in awe.

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And I started stroking it and just being so enveloped in that experience. But then, of course, the security guards came after me and they were scolding me so heavily. And that was a little bit traumatizing.

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You were a kid, though, right? I was a kid. And yeah, I was just, I'm just going to be so enthralled. But I think that ruined my experience a little bit.

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And we'll be right back. I love seeing the art and I think when I think what I took from there is that. Yeah, I guess, you know, I think the one thing that's always challenged to an art school is like.

I guess the elitist relationship with art in many ways, and then how do you make art maybe more accessible? And I see, of course, like these different spaces. Yeah, I guess like they're meant for different people. Some people really like the elitist, maybe kind of like the high fashion world or whatnot.

But then whenever I do these fairs or shows, I always let people, if I come there to supervise, I love letting people and I love letting kids just feel the work. Yeah. And I guess, yeah, you have like a different relationship with art when you get to feel it.

(41:24 - 41:56)

On your Instagram, you indicate being drawn by procrastination and escapism. That you feel overstimulated by but love maximalism in art. Can you explain to our audience what this term means and how does it fit within your creative practice? Is this one of your styles or mediums that you explore? Oh, well, procrastination and escapism.

(41:56 - 42:19)

Well, I think. As being a kid and I still hate confrontation and being a kid who just sort of escaped into the world of creativity and imagination. Yeah, I guess my way of coping with difficult feelings and just like stress in life or even people and just like stress in life or even people is to escape.

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And in current day relationships, I'm still called out for it because I'm very, I love running away if I don't know how to deal with something. Yes, my work very much stems from that place. It is my, it's definitely my safe space.

(42:34 - 42:53)

And but yeah, I also do get very overstimulated. I guess as someone who is neurodivergent too. Yeah, I guess in my everyday life, even going out onto the street, being in Toronto, I'm always wearing earplugs or like headphones.

(42:53 - 43:11)

I get overstimulated by sound a lot. Even on the TTC, I'm always making sure like my ears are plugged and whatnot. And it's very difficult for me to be in crowded situations if there's like, if I don't see like an escape route or feeling like I'm trapped and things like that.

(43:11 - 43:57)

And so, yeah, I do get very overstimulated and it's an odd thing, I guess, because in my art, yeah, I love doing, I guess, creating super maximalist, highly detailed work. And that's far from minimal. And I guess with maximalism, I guess it's like, yeah, it truly is like the opposite of minimalism.

And so with maximalism, it's just like, if you can pour or put every ingredient on top of a pizza, that's what you're going to do. So that's how I kind of see it. And I think with my work, sometimes I often don't know when I'm finished with a sculpture because there's this thing in my head that's just saying like more and more and more.

(43:58 - 44:33)

And yeah, I think that, like, for example, if you see my apartment and if you see my bedroom, it's extremely minimal. And I think I keep the space very clean and very empty so I can give space for my own thoughts and not overwhelm them. But then and then, yeah, art would be that extension of myself and my mind where all those thoughts can literally be just barfed out onto the canvas or paper.

(44:36 - 45:06)

OK, so it's the opposite of minimalism. Well, that was that was easy then because I thought it was really complicated. Yes.

OK. Not really, you know, if you if you see interior design, yeah, just compare interior design, type it into any search engine, like minimalism design or maximalism design. And maximalism really looks like it can be very well curated, of course, but it's just like you barf out everything.

(45:06 - 45:30)

And then with minimalism, you only have like. Yeah, like the essentials, like nothing very extra, but I think with maximalist, we love all that extra, often because it brings us joy, not because it's not needed or not functional. I've been skating around your actual art kind of.

(45:30 - 46:10)

So let's dive back in with some really piercing questions. OK, can we peel the layers a little bit more on your connection to mental health and your art? This may be really personal, but you did indicate immediately that this is where your art is rooted. How did your multidisciplinary art practice arrive at this nearly arcane and neo-gothic spider's web of juxtaposed materials? These works seem to be dipped in popped cotton candy with intricately wired structures.

(46:10 - 46:45)

How did your medium evolve to this? Do you see a trajectory of your materials and how you arrived here? Yeah, and so. It was definitely in 2018 when my depression started that my art truly and consciously became about my mental health. In past years, I would, you know, create a lot of art, but.

(46:46 - 47:07)

I guess unconsciously and truly just not know. That it was my way of coping with emotions at the time, though, when I became I clinically depressed in 2018. And so I struggled with depression for about seven years.

(47:08 - 47:31)

Yeah, during this time, my art has truly evolved to be about this mental health experience. And. Yeah, I was therapy for about two years as well, and I still occasionally see a therapist, but I also have a larger support circle, friends.

(47:31 - 48:03)

And also, I think as like. You know, as you experience it more and like family and friends, I guess everyone overall has become more educated on mental health, so people have a lot more space for talking about it. And let me see, how did my medium evolve to this? Yeah, it was definitely during COVID when I was with my mess and the trajectory of my materials and how I arrived here.

(48:04 - 48:36)

I don't quite see a well, I see a pattern of materials that I am definitely drawn towards, but I do love finding materials on the street as well. And even during COVID, I would often walk along the harbourfront and yeah, there would be there's a lot of like, I guess, little segments of rope or strength that you can find along there. I truly hope it didn't belong to like some expensive yacht owner or whatnot, but I would take a few of those home.

(48:37 - 48:50)

And then also there was an eclipse that happened, a really big eclipse that happened some months ago. And there were sunglasses, those eclipse glasses, just everywhere the day after. And so I had a really good time just picking those up.

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Anything that has an interesting form or shape. I really love, and if it's not biodegradable, it depends, but if it's like mouldy or growing mushrooms, I'm definitely going to avoid or if it has, I guess, yeah, there's like food scraps and has the potential to spread disease. I'll probably avoid that.

(49:17 - 50:00)

If I bring home like clothes or fabric or whatnot, I'll chuck it in the laundry and often let it sit in bleach or dish detergent for about a month. There is an intimacy in your illustrations that I would like to discuss. Does this stem from your emotional connection to your work? Would you say it is more a contemporary way your work has evolved over time, or is it more a reflection of your roots from China showing through? Or do you see your illustrations as separate from your multidisciplinary sculptural work? Let's see.

(50:00 - 50:39)

So, yeah, with my illustrations. I think, yeah, the intimacy of it, yeah, it also started during my depression and also for most of my life, I think it was, I guess, as a very like probably lonely kid, a lot of my, a lot of my work did not have a single person drawn or painted in my pieces. And it was only during my depression when I started doing more like figure drawing.

(50:40 - 50:59)

Those were, I guess, yeah, self-portraits of like the emotions I was going through. And then in 2019, when I was in Scotland for the exchange program, yeah, I started to include more people. And these were the people that we saw, we're all surrounded by.

(51:02 - 51:29)

And yeah, I guess like as I'm drawing, it is a very intimate experience. I think of all the materials that comes most naturally to me is, yeah, just working with like an ink pen or a pencil since I was like the earliest, yeah, like the earliest art material I was ever exposed to. And also the easiest to just transport.

(51:31 - 51:58)

Even to this day, I like to carry like some pieces of paper or a small sketchbook and a Sharpie, like a thin Sharpie with me. And I do love, yeah, I definitely owe it to my mom again because of children's book illustrations. But also I do love just the intricacies of a lot of traditional Chinese painting as well.

(52:01 - 52:36)

And the intricacies and also I think it was a Japanese scroll painting, too, and yeah, I think they just have such a love for technicality and also for these details and also capturing like the emotion and essence of a landscape. And I think growing up, having seen a lot of these works, yeah, also was very much very, yeah, something that I kind of carry subconsciously. As I'm creating my own work.

(52:40 - 52:55)

Yeah, in some ways, I see your illustrations as elaborate, linear work that sort of precedes your sculptures. Yeah, they do. Yeah, they totally seem like they are what need to be completed first.

(52:55 - 53:12)

Yeah, they are sort of sketches for your larger work. Yeah, I'm like, in a way, I feel like that it was a natural progression. I started off with very small works.

(53:13 - 53:37)

And I think in a way, like my depression, too, was and is so exhausting that I really only had the energy to work very small and then. But still very highly detailed, because I guess that that's just how my inner world feels. But then during COVID, when I suddenly had all that time, and it was like, that's when I did my two years of therapy as well.

(53:37 - 54:17)

And I started to have a stronger sense and acceptance of myself. I felt like sculpture was a very powerful release of emotions, and I suddenly had the energy, but also it's just very freeing. I wasn't working, you know, as traditional, a lot of traditional drawing is, it's, you know, you get a rectangle piece of paper, and you draw inside the box, but then with sculpture, I could suddenly just, I can, yeah, I can let my explosions, my emotions explode beyond those boundaries.

(54:19 - 54:54)

And I find like to this day, during different times of my life, depending on what emotions I'm feeling, I love to jump between working on a small, detailed illustration. And then maybe the next day or the next month or months later, I would be working on these giant sculptures again. I guess it depends if I feel like I need to maybe be in my more like small, intimate, safe little inner world, or maybe if I'm having more explosive emotions.

(54:56 - 55:24)

And I found that, yeah, I found that, yeah, I found that it was pretty interesting, but it was during the time when I was working multiple jobs, and also in retail at the Eaton Center. Oh, my gosh, the emotions that gave me created a lot of my giant sculptures during that time. Because I guess, yeah, retail just does something to you.

(55:26 - 55:48)

And all the energies they have and whatever mental issues they may bring to the workplace, right? Oh, man, so many different characters. I would love to talk about them, but I feel like that would take another hour. Yeah, that was just, yeah.

(55:50 - 56:01)

Okay, well, we have actually reached the end of our questions already. Yeah, it was great to have you here. I was honestly super excited to have you here.

(56:04 - 56:27)

Yeah, no problem. Well, I really think sculpture, like sculptors are just, yeah, like you said, the sculpture, there is no boundaries. It's like it's completely freeing emotionally for the sculptor and for the people that view it, right? It's just.

(56:27 - 56:42)

Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for reaching out. It's really, yeah, there's a mystery with sculptors, I think, I don't know, you guys just seem larger than life to me, but that's just me.

(56:48 - 57:01)

Yeah, I guess like, you know, I think it's harder to sell sculpture, too, because people just don't have room in their spaces, but they have room on the wall, like blacksmithing. But I have done ceramics and I do love ceramics. I miss it so much.

(57:01 - 58:00)

And I think for some people, too, like sculpture, you know, compared to maybe purchasing the metal you need for certain pieces and for a blacksmith, at least what makes the current work that I'm doing sustainable for me is that, you know, garbage, collecting trash materials or whatnot. I guess, yeah, the cost for me would be much cheaper. And so I guess, yeah, it also depends on maybe what maybe what financial background you're from, too.

What have you been exposed to culturally? And I think what helps, too, with my pieces is that they're really quite light. If I was a blacksmith, I feel like I would. As someone who does not go to the gym, maybe does a little yoga at home, my strength is probably not what a doctor would say is good for my age.

(58:00 - 58:20)

So I feel like if I did blacksmithing, I would maybe focus on making smaller pieces because I simply could not carry something much larger. But, yeah, I guess for a long time, too, I saw sculptures as larger than life. If you even just walk down the street.

(58:22 - 58:42)

I guess, yeah, in any city or town where you're in, you see giant installation works. Yeah, I just find that there's something so beautiful about that. I think my dream would be for some unicorn billionaire to pick me up from a show and give me an empty warehouse to work in and just an endless budget.

(58:42 - 58:54)

And then then I can imagine. Yeah, just giant, massive sculptures can come to life if you have a space like that. Yes.

(58:56 - 59:06)

Yes, it's like, find me, unicorn billionaire. I'll give you all the art. You put it out there and they'll come to you, right? All right.

(59:06 - 59:11)

Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I'll get you your interview, too, as soon as I can. Exactly.

(59:12 - 59:15)

Yeah. Do what you do. What makes you happy, right? Good practice.

(59:16 - 59:42)

Now is the time. Anything to add? Well, whenever kids ask me that or like the parents of kids ask me that at shows, I'm always like, you know, if it makes you happy, just keep doing it, regardless of how it looks or if it's aesthetic enough for Instagram. I think like the creative process is what's most important.

(59:43 - 1:00:09)

And I think a lot of people aren't given a safe space to create art or to connect with their creativity. And I think using art as a way to connect with yourself and emotions can be so healthy. And a lot of adults that I meet, too, they would be like, yeah, I haven't like picked up a pencil, crayon in over 30 years or whatnot.

(1:00:10 - 1:00:40)

And sometimes it stems from having people in their own lives. Discouraging them from creating, and even though they loved it because they had discouragements, either from parental figures or any other influence or maybe social media is telling them they're not good enough and then they stop doing what they love. And so, yeah, I say just just, you know, if you can try to ignore those voices and just keep making it for yourself.

(1:00:40 - 1:01:24)

And because that's how it all started for me, too. I just made art for myself and it made me happy. Exactly, yeah, to do what you do, what makes you happy, right? Yes.

Yes, it's important to add that, definitely. Support support local artists, if you can, buy art from even if it's just prints from original artists, maybe skip the ones you see at Winner's or Winner's or any TJ Maxx store or Dollarama or whatnot or Michael's. Sometimes sometimes they steal from real artists, too.

(1:01:25 - 1:01:39)

Yeah, exactly. Go to the real artists, right? Not the the ones that are just at home sense or whatever Winner's, right? Yes. All right.

(1:01:40 - 1:01:46)

Well, thank you so much again. And yeah, thank you for having me. This was such a pleasure.

(1:01:46 - 1:01:49)

That's great. All right. You take care, Emily.

(1:01:50 - 1:01:55)

Yes, and you too, Carolyn. All right. Yes, take care.

(1:01:55 - 1:02:00)

You take care, Emily. OK, bye. All right.

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Bye. Join me next time as I go down another rabbit hole with another creative professional on their insights, their inspirations and their ingenuity.