Christine Kim Episode #11: Stranger To Myself

As a Korean Canadian Artist Christine Kim lives and works as an Artist and Arts Educator North of Toronto. Drawing her entire life, she crystalizes her digital and analogue modes of operation into intricate gestures. Understanding the stars as narratives, weaved on threads by storytellers throughout the years. Christine traces the lines from these structures, collects these stars; while inventing her own imaginary constellations and narratives in paper portraiture. 

Examining the surface, shape and volume of concealing and revealing the figure; Kim incorporates the interplay of layers and shadows. While the viewer is shown glimpses of calmness, fragility and quiet. Working with watercolour washes, thick paper cutouts, both loose, loud, and meticulous. Kim creates exciting challenging puzzles that need to be solved in her large scale installations.

Join Carolyn Botelho as we discuss Christine's fluid practice, how it blurs the lines of professionalism, and what her paper orbs emerged as one sleepless October evening. What does her teaching art brings to her creativity? How she plays off extremes, what participating in Nuit Blanche is really like? And everything in between her multi-layered unfolding journey of method, relation, and tradition, that is veiled in paper thin constellations. 

Connect With Christine at: https://www.christinekim.ca/

Podcast Credits:

Audio Links from https://freemusicarchive.org/
Podcast by Carolyn Botelho

(*Mise en place (pronounced "meez-ahn-plahs") is a French term that translates to "everything in its place." It refers to the practice of preparing and organizing all ingredients and equipment before starting to cook.)

Transcript

(0:04 - 0:22)

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Creatively Thinking Podcast. Join Carolyn Botelho as she uncovers the inspirations behind some incredibly creative minds that are orbiting our local communities. So hi, Christine Kim.

(0:23 - 0:46)

I am so happy to have you on the show. Your work really intrigued me. You are a Korean-born, Canadian award-winning paper artist based in Toronto and an art educator exploring the world of paper through layering, cutting, and painting using portraiture to conceal and reveal.

(0:48 - 1:14)

Exploring the world of paper through layering, cutting, and painting using portraiture to conceal and reveal, as well as how you describe how your style of work came about. You are still swimming to your shoreline, keep your head down, and do the work. And just so the audience knows that this is how you have described arriving at your style.

(1:14 - 1:47)

Can you elaborate on how you are continuing to reach your style in your creative practice? So hello, thank you so much for having me on the show. So I think when an artist thinks about their own practice, there is no real destination as soon as you reach the end of a body of work, there's just still so much more to explore. And I think it's that struggle that keeps us in the game.

(1:47 - 2:20)

So my earlier stages of my career, I feel like it was a constant exploration, experimentation into different media, and the style that I arrived at is just a collection of all of the things that I love doing. And so in the earlier stages of my collage practice, I describe it sort of like a chef. There's an accumulation of ingredients that I build up, and that's sort of my mise en place.

(2:21 - 2:38)

So there's drawings, watercolor paintings, and paper cuts. And those are the ingredients that I set up in my studio space. And the assembly is really where it can be really spontaneous and unplanned.

(2:38 - 2:59)

And I do most of the time have a clear vision of what I want. But in the very beginning, I kind of embraced not knowing and this can feel really uncomfortable. But I think that's part of the joy too, is discovering things along the way.

(3:00 - 3:37)

So right now, I'm moving more away from the spontaneity and going into a heavier sketchbook practice and almost like mapping out the compositions on newsprint first. And so it becomes more of like puzzle pieces that I lock into place because the newsprint drawing acts as like a blueprint for me. But there's still lots of room for play and experimentation.

(3:37 - 3:53)

But I kind of enjoy the discipline of it and being more intentional with each element. So that's sort of like the journey that I've taken in my artistic practice. And I just like the idea of a swimmer.

(3:54 - 4:19)

I'm not much of a swimmer myself, but just, you know, putting in the hours, doing the laps, having your head down and not spending too much time like looking around at your competition like you are your own competitor in a way. So. Sorry, I'm just kind of going back to your actual question.

(4:20 - 5:13)

Yeah, so I think this has been sort of the style of the way I work from the earlier stages of spontaneity to now, which is like a little bit more intentional and deliberate. Yeah, kind of figuring it out, figuring out everything as you go is it's kind of like a magical moment, right? But then you do want some of the some of the structure there to guide you at the same time, right? I think in my earlier bodies of work, there was like an overarching sort of mood that I was trying to go for. And maybe the works within the body were a little bit more loosely connected.

(5:13 - 5:54)

I think this time around, I'm really trying to hone in on like a tighter visual vocabulary as I work. So that's been sort of my goal as as right now for myself to achieve. And it can also be from where you are right now, it's like, well, now you're more practiced and more skilled and more experienced so that therefore it's like that means you don't need to have quite as much of an exploratory process as they did earlier, right? Yeah, yeah.

(5:55 - 6:35)

Yeah, in the beginning, there was a lot of questions working in paper, so I started like over a decade ago now, and I feel like there has been just a lot more people embracing paper art. So in the early days, I think around it was 2012, when I first started, someone reached out to me from the UK and asked me to join like a paper artist collective. And that was a collective that was started on Instagram.

(6:36 - 6:57)

And since then, I think now the the number of artists there are, it's like 100 paper artists from around the world. And they have a following of, I think, over 70,000 people on Instagram. So it's that's also a testament to the how the medium has grown.

(6:57 - 8:03)

And, you know, it goes, the variety of it is really wide from installation artists to paper cut to paper sculptures and illustrations. So it's a really nice sort of democratic medium for people to step into. And so I really like that, the idea of it, just like for it to be so accessible to people.

Yeah, so kind of this question seems a little strange, this next one. Well, although I don't think you've quite answered, what made you choose this field as a career path? Was it working with your hands, your emotional insights or something else? So I never actually thought I would become an artist when I was younger, I did my BFA and was really lost at the end of it. I thought I would arrive at something that would carry me through, but I didn't.

(8:04 - 8:27)

It was a four years at Queen's University and I specialized in stone lithography. And I yeah, I was just kind of lost. I went to Teachers College and I just thought to myself, oh, maybe I'm just going to teach art and not to pursue it myself.

(8:29 - 8:57)

My Master's of Arts Education at the University of Victoria, where they, you know, I got accepted and we were all sent in that we would have some studio space. So we should prepare Victoria and it was a series of three summers in a row. So I was able to work and have an income and then spend the summers out west.

(8:57 - 9:26)

And that was really quite a lot of pressure, quite a lot of pressure because I haven't practiced art in a few years since finishing my BFA. And so I went to Victoria with just art material too much because I was traveling quite a distance. And it was there where I just grabbed whatever was around me.

(9:26 - 9:43)

So there was like this bin of National Geographic magazines. There is this frame shop in town that was giving away. Matte boards, like just offcuts and just I just, you know.

(9:45 - 10:12)

Collected a lot of like leftover materials and I started collaging them together. And so my studio space was became like a paper forest and I felt like I was like really creating like a paper nest for myself to, you know, nurture myself back to a creative space. And that was the beginning paper related.

(10:13 - 10:36)

So I dabbled in collage. I really threw myself into installations because I had the space and it was just I just wanted to, like, immerse myself as well as my viewers in in paper. And it was just I am I don't know, I really miss the early days.

(10:37 - 10:55)

There was no Instagram. I am very like few photographic evidence of what I did then. I kind of liked the idea of just doing work that nobody sees, which is really hard these days for artists to do.

(10:56 - 11:26)

I try to kind of encourage my own students to, you know, not give yourself the pressure of posting all the time and having to create like a public persona of yourself when you're just trying to figure out who you are. Because I just yeah, I really liked the. Making art in a cave and and then when you're ready, you're ready to like, you know, show it to somebody else.

(11:27 - 11:38)

And, you know, have an audience. So, yeah, I don't know if this was like a very deliberate choice for a career path. They just kind of stumbled into paper.

(11:40 - 12:24)

And when I came back to Toronto after my time, you know, building up some work, I just really felt that I was onto something. And it was then that I took some time off teaching and I did a few sort of unpaid semesters where I, you know, just focused on the artwork and could build up my career that way. So it was a really great time to focus on my ideas, what interested me, and just follow my own curiosities.

(12:34 - 12:48)

Yeah, being an artist is very, it's like a selfish kind of pursuit. And then teaching is a very selfless act. So it's hard to kind of switch back and forth.

(12:48 - 13:27)

I'm, I feel like I'm struggling these days, especially like being a new mom. Like there's a lot of like hats that I wear every day. I realize sometimes it can be hard to sort of pinpoint, but how did you find your style as a creative professional? Was it from exploring visual projects or was it discovered while you were teaching? So I see, I kind of think you answered it.

(13:27 - 13:36)

But maybe you could elaborate on it a little bit. So my style came from just dabbling in different media. I felt that I left my BFA degree with no real specialty.

(13:37 - 13:57)

I was in love with stone, litho, and just the romance of drawing on a stone. It feels like archaic and primal. And I just love the texture of the cold surface with the crayon and the mineral quality of the touche washes.

(13:58 - 14:14)

Like it was all very romantic to me. And just like the heavy darkness and shadows were some things that kind of compelled me forward. And also like the physicality too was something that I really loved.

(14:14 - 14:45)

Like just the weight and the gravity of the stone and the history of the stone and the idea that the stone can retain images and it has a memory to it. So if you don't do a good job of standing down your stone between images, like there is this idea of ghost images coming up because it holds on to the memory of the previous layer. So all of that was great.

(14:46 - 15:15)

Plus like in printmaking, you can really spend a lot of time admiring paper. So just again, the weight, the tooth, all of that can play into your choices as a printmaker. Even like the fragile qualities of like rice paper and mulberry and there's just a selection of it was great as well.

(15:17 - 15:24)

So I walked away from my BFA. You know, I loved drawing. That's why I chose stone litho.

(15:25 - 15:58)

I was okay at painting and like pretty, I don't know, okay at sculpture. I think teaching high school, it kind of forces me to still dabble in everything and every year I would try to get better at each medium so I could gain confidence as a teacher. So I think it was just, you know, just having to live that life of like, you know, a mishmash of materials.

(15:59 - 16:18)

And when I was in studio one day, you know, there was a drawing that went really poorly. So I cut it out and it started sitting on my studio table with all of the paper cuts and, you know, watercolor paintings. I was still sort of doing a lot of like random things.

(16:18 - 16:31)

And so when the drawing was cut out, it suddenly had like its own like physical presence. It could cast its own shadow. It could go underneath paper cuts.

(16:31 - 16:44)

And that's when I really felt, oh, I could kind of piece this together and glue it down. And it felt kind of sculptural. I could really embrace like shadows a lot more.

(16:45 - 17:07)

And I put together, I think maybe two pieces for a square foot show in Toronto. And it was run by a wall gallery back in the day when it was on Ossington. And I sold my first piece then, which was also really exciting.

(17:07 - 17:58)

And that's when I kind of knew like I was onto something and I should really take some time to explore this new sort of style. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like that piece you cut out, it like gave you the idea for like collage and sculpture and seeing where you could take that one piece and how you could develop it further.

(18:01 - 18:26)

Your practice of exploration. I like to think about it in terms of extremes because it's just a process thing for me. I get caught up in sort of the meticulous nature of some of the processes, like drawing is a lot of cross hatching and a slow build up of values.

(18:27 - 18:56)

And I like to use painting as a way to like break away from that and maybe go a little bit more gestural and a little bit looser in style. And for the paper cuts, that's also sort of meticulous work that I have to plan out. So I think it just is a balance for me of being meticulous and being loose and not having to stay in one frame of mind for too long.

(18:57 - 19:46)

So and I think it also kind of forces me to not get too precious with anything, because when it comes to like cutting into my portraits, for example, there is like a level of risk you have to take every time, even though I try to plan as much as possible, like there's a little bit of like destruction that happens that I kind of enjoy because it means that I'm not taking things too seriously. And it also opens me up to like a level of risk that I like, because even if it goes wrong, it might lead to something else and kind of. And we'll be right back.

(19:54 - 20:35)

Kick me out of a pattern of working sometimes like, you know, I think for every artist, if you get to a level where you're just producing in order to sell, it's you're just thinking like almost like a factory work, you just want to turn it out. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, like to kind of welcome an element of like chaos or anarchy in your studio, it kind of takes you out of it and you have to respond in the moment or, you know, be surprised, disappointed, whatever.

(20:36 - 21:24)

It's taking a nice sort of reminder to kind of be awake still, you know. How would you describe your creative process as compared to painters and sculptors? Would you say that because there are many layers to your artwork that there is really no way to compare? I think for painters, they often work in terms of layers. And I think that's like comparison.

(21:25 - 21:33)

It is hard to compare. It's I feel like I'm making dioramas sometimes. And so a little bit of both.

(21:35 - 21:59)

I was at the Musee d'Orsay and I saw these like small maquettes that were created for theatre set design. And I think that was like the closest that I saw in a gallery setting, like in a museum setting of like the thing that I do. So it was just, you know, layers of drawings and paintings.

(22:00 - 22:15)

And they use like a deep shadow box to recreate the set design for any given play. Yeah, I really loved those maquettes. I have a few pictures from that trip.

(22:16 - 22:24)

That's nice. That might be good to put on your website. Yeah, I think so.

(22:24 - 23:03)

Maybe that's a good. Yeah, it's part of your process, right? When observers view your work, they are filled with memory, fragility and wonder. During your paper orbs exhibition at Scotiabank's Nuit Blanche many years ago now, how did the public react to wearing these folded thinking devices? They were encouraged to return throughout the night to experience the dissolution of the sculpture.

(23:04 - 23:24)

So this piece has really stayed. This piece has really stayed with me. For all these years, it happened in 2013, and it was a collaboration with my friend Marcin Kedzior, who teaches architecture at TMU now.

(23:24 - 23:55)

So I was experimenting with origami and the act of folding really resonated with me because it was a metaphor for how we navigate our lives. So we are constantly folding in experiences, memories and histories to create who we are. So throughout the night, there was a long lineup for people to grab a paper orb, and we created a small tunnel where the origami pieces slowly dissolved from the structure.

(23:55 - 24:22)

And you could see the paper orbs like dotting the night because it was white against like obviously a dark night because the Nuit Blanche runs from 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. And it was, again, the early days of social media. I think it was just like I joined Instagram in 2012 and this happened 2013. So again, it wasn't very heavily documented.

(24:22 - 24:51)

So it really felt like there was a natural dissolution of an event that people were kind of like forced to experience firsthand. And I also really loved the way that people were invited to wear the paper orb so they could place it over their eyes like a visor. They could put it around their neck like a collar or place it on top of their heads like a crown.

(24:51 - 25:10)

So it had like this really like festive quality that celebrated the theme of parade and masquerade. And that was the area that we were in. It was Queen and University in Toronto and curated by Patrick McCauley.

(25:10 - 25:24)

And the theme was parade. So it was a nice like sort of celebratory moment. And living in the city, I find that people are like just travel and they commute.

(25:24 - 25:47)

They're often in their individual bubbles like now more than ever with their phones. So it was nice to be kind of unified and connected by a common visual element throughout the night. And people would see other people wearing it and you can feel like, oh, we visited the same installation and had the same experience.

(25:48 - 26:00)

So it was nice to have that as a recognizable piece. And it was a great night. Yeah, it was, again, the beginning of my career.

(26:00 - 26:23)

And it was just a nice like confluence of factors to bring me together with my friend who could focus on the architecture of the installation. I was working on the paper elements. And it was such a success.

(26:23 - 26:34)

Like we had a huge lineup that night. And we only had a little over 6,000 paper orbs to give out. And it took us forever to fold.

(26:34 - 26:52)

We had like an army of over 100 volunteers help us fold leading up to that event. And it was just, yeah, I still look back on it with such like fond memories. I still have some paper orbs in my studio.

(26:53 - 27:08)

And the following year, Ottawa wanted us to mount the same installation for their Nuit Blanche. So we did it two years in a row. Yeah, so it was great.

(27:11 - 27:46)

When observers view your work, they are filled with memory, fragility, and wonder. During your paper orbs exhibition at Scotiabank's Nuit Blanche many years ago now, how did the public react to wearing these folded thinking devices? They were encouraged to return throughout the night to experience the dissolution of the sculpture. What were you able to observe from this floating study? Oh, that's nice.

(27:46 - 28:18)

It's giving out instructions right now, so I'm hoping. While studying your work, I noticed not only how you play off extremes, but how you also play off duality. Does this focus indicate an underlying theme of political or social issues? So in terms of duality, I am often thinking about concealing or revealing or presence and absence.

(28:20 - 28:51)

And I think it's the duality kind of like makes sense for me personally, because, you know, I grew up basically, I mean, this is a very common experience for Canadians growing up in two different cultures and having to navigate between those cultures. I also grew up in two different locations, and I feel like it really divides up my life into my childhood versus afterwards. And I grew up in Bowmanville, which is just outside of Toronto.

(28:52 - 29:08)

And when I first moved to Canada, my parents gave me like an anglicized version of my Korean name. So for the first, I don't know, up until grade eight, I was June Kim. I don't know.

(29:08 - 29:23)

People don't know that about me. But it's, you know, it's kind of a big change to switch your name. I wanted to be, I wanted to fit in.

(29:23 - 29:38)

And so when I moved to Toronto, I changed my name to Christine. And it was just like a random like, I like this name, and we'll just go with it. I just had to remind myself that, you know, to like respond when people say Christine.

(29:39 - 29:59)

So that was kind of like a milestone in my life. Because, you know, I went by like a totally different name. And it was a moment where I, you know, purposely, deliberately wanted to fit in and not stand out.

(29:59 - 30:18)

And I don't know, looking back, I know a lot of a few of my friends have kind of returned back to their name that their parents chose. But it's just now my middle name now. But I think, yeah, in terms of duality, it's always kind of on my mind.

(30:18 - 30:39)

And my parents are pretty traditional Korean parents. And I feel like because they immigrated here in the 80s, like that's the version of Korea that they brought with them. So it was a career where, you know, women don't smoke, women don't do this, women don't do that.

(30:41 - 30:56)

So there was a lot of like expectations. Yeah, and like me going into the arts was like a huge thing for my family. They were like pretty against it when I was growing up.

(30:57 - 31:25)

And so, you know, there was a lot of like negotiations that you had to make to embrace what you wanted to do. So yeah, I think now the most recent work is I'm cutting out the figure itself. And I call it the, well, my personal nickname for these people are the hollows.

(31:26 - 31:43)

Because they're hollowed out figures. But I like them because there's like no specific identity to them. And they're present, you can see that there's a figure there, but they're also absent.

(31:44 - 32:15)

So, you know, when I think about my own life, my life could be totally different, you know, if I didn't immigrate here. And so there's like a piece of me that could have lived a life in Korea, could have had a totally different, you know, set of options as careers and marriage and all of that stuff. And it's almost like the path that I did not take or it's the life that it's a life and like family that we left behind as well.

(32:16 - 32:50)

So I really like the idea of like the figure as the void, because you could always like place other things inside. And I've been putting in like foliage and landscapes to describe like an internal landscape that people don't usually see. And it's just to kind of remind everybody how rich our interior lives can be.

(32:51 - 33:02)

And it's not known to the viewers. And sometimes it's not even known to us like what what is going on inside. So yeah, it can be a lot of different things.

(33:03 - 33:43)

So just just to understand this correctly, you're talking about you're using the figure as like an outline, and then on the inside of this figure, that's where you're placing all these other elements. Is that what you're saying? So I've done a few hollowed out figures in the past. And I think for the new body of work, I am sort of embracing it again and finding out ways to talk about it more specifically related to my heritage.

(33:46 - 34:09)

So yeah, I'm, you know, I'm getting to an age where I'm thinking about potentially losing my parents. And that's really like the only connection I have with. It's okay.

(34:09 - 34:30)

This is why I'm glad I have no video because I'm sure some artists, they do get really emotional. I'm sure they wouldn't want that to be all over the internet, right? So yeah. Yeah, that's my only connection to Korea.

(34:30 - 34:51)

And without them, like there is no real bridge back to my relatives back home. And yeah, so that's kind of weighing on my mind. And that's a good way to sort of explore that visually.

(34:53 - 35:08)

See, originally, when you said hollows, I thought you meant metaphorically, but then obviously it makes sense, hollows, like the figure totally. Yeah, so it's literally like I cut out the figure and there's nobody there. Like there's still fragments of the body still visible.

(35:09 - 35:33)

Like, I usually keep the legs visible, because I kind of like the gesture of a sitting and, you know, to indicate some sort of like body language. So you get a sense of like mood and atmosphere. But yeah, I've just, yeah, we've kind of like went through a loss.

(35:33 - 35:44)

My husband, his mom passed away. It's okay. Yeah.

(35:45 - 35:58)

You know, it's been almost a year since she passed and it was quick too. So it was stomach cancer. It was worse than we expected.

(35:59 - 36:18)

And so after the diagnosis, she passed within like the year. And it was also kind of with the birth of my daughter too. Like as soon as we found out I was pregnant, we found out her diagnosis.

(36:18 - 36:45)

And so it's just the trajectory of those two journeys for us was quite a lot during my leave. Yeah, so it's the figure as a void is a lot of things. And I hope that the audience has, you know, their own interpretations as well.

(36:46 - 37:09)

I think sometimes when I'm talking about my work, I don't really say everything. And I think it's, you know, to leave space for the audience to think and feel what they will, like, you know, they'll take their own interpretations. And that's like important to them.

(37:09 - 37:33)

I really love hearing their interpretations too. Like it's so nice that, you know, putting my own experiences aside, like it still means something to someone else. So yeah, I haven't really like leaned into my own heritage that much.

(37:33 - 37:58)

But I find myself like just thinking about my own daughter and my, you know, Korean is very broken. So I'm passing on like whatever I've got to her. And it's just also like the objects that we're surrounded by when we're growing up.

(37:58 - 38:35)

So when I look at my parents' house, it's the objects that they have carried over from Korea. And again, like those are the things that I kind of were sort of in the background during my childhood, but now I'm kind of re-examining them. And also kind of looking at Korean paintings too, to really try to, I don't know, like embrace that type of art and language.

(38:35 - 39:17)

It's nice to see how other people will interpret what is created. Yeah, just kind of taking- And I think everybody is sort of going through sort of something similar and just like everyone has lost somewhere in their family, you know, whether it's a grandparent or, you know, somewhere in there. We've all experienced something that we can relate to, as you're talking about this, the form and the void and just the interrelationships, interpersonal relationships that we're all going through these different changes.

(39:18 - 39:44)

Just, it's a lot to manage. And so to be able to have these visual sort of paper sculptures and interpretations of, you know, what we're all going through, it's just, it's nice to see that, right? Yes, exactly. Yeah, it's the collection.

(39:44 - 40:11)

And I've, yeah, I actually, I've been really interested in like collections. And we'll be right back. Because it really indicates like what that person has valued in their life.

(40:11 - 40:41)

And also, you know, people choose things because it's somehow a reflection of who they want to appear to be to other people as well. So the objects that you collect really speaks to who you are and who you want to be seen as. And just also, you know, dealing with a death in the family.

(40:41 - 41:13)

It's the collection of objects that you have to go through, to sift through and figure out, I mean, it's also a negotiation of what they have valued in the past, what you want to honor about their life and, you know, kind of what you want to carry through and keep. And you can't keep everything. So we've also been kind of going through that as well.

(41:14 - 41:39)

But yeah, it's been, it's been a lot. And you're also seeing what was important to your parents, you know, as you were saying, the sort of mementos or keepsakes that they kept from Korea and why they are important and what they meant to them. Yeah, I mean, there's a simple like Marie Kondo strategy.

(41:41 - 41:52)

It's tough when it's like, you know, you're dealing with a death too. So she should come out with a sequel. Yeah, it's like what you want to hold on to and what you want to let go of.

(41:52 - 41:56)

It's a lot. It's hard to figure that stuff out. Yeah.

(41:57 - 42:09)

Yeah, it's a process, that's for sure. Yes, exactly. Like what has brought other people joy and, you know, you want to honor their lives too.

(42:10 - 42:15)

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, because this can't just be only what brings you joy.

(42:17 - 42:50)

On your website, there is a section titled, At the End of All This Language. Can you elaborate on this? Or is this a description of your art layering that cuts through installation, illustration, and sculpture? So this is actually a title for a body of work that I did. And the title comes from a book that I stumbled upon in a bookstore.

(42:50 - 43:11)

It's Rick Moody's novel called The Minister's Black Veil. And it's like part memoir and part fictionalized. There was just this one passage in the book that really sweats me off my feet.

(43:11 - 43:25)

And I just, I actually have it written out here that I'm going to read you the excerpt. And it'll kind of explain itself. So the quote goes, it's quite long.

(43:25 - 43:48)

So I'm going to start in the middle somewhere. Okay, so the quote says, you might talk all you want and never once get to the bottom of what drove you into the arcade of chatter in the first place. There's always leftover need at the end, a desire that exceeds its object, a way in which you feel known and remaining to be known.

(43:48 - 44:06)

And at the end of all this language, shouted from the rooftops, sung earnestly in choruses, whispered over the cradles of infants, yearning isn't resolved. There's always a remainder. So this quote really kind of struck me.

(44:06 - 44:23)

I have always been kind of drawn to literature. And I just love something upon books or passages or quotes. It feels like the universe is like giving me a nudge or like, you know, there's a serendipitous moment.

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So these days, I think like we rely too much on like an algorithm to lead us into different avenues of research. So I kind of miss the days where you would just go into, you know, a bookstore and just open yourself up to discovering something new. And so this quote really spoke to me because it feels like it's always difficult to explain all of our intentions as an artist.

(44:52 - 45:16)

I did this interview early on where the interviewer asked me like what each element in the collage meant. And that was the structure of the article that they would put a little like number beside like a section of the painting. And then there will be an explanation to like why it's there.

(45:17 - 45:28)

So it was so, you know, counter to how every artist works. Yeah, that sounds a little weird. Explain everything.

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Like what? You can't, you can't explain, you can't explain everything. It just happens. Yes, explain everything.

(45:37 - 46:01)

Exactly. So it, you know, it's, uh, that was really nerve wracking, but it kind of misses the point of like, you know, there's the immediacy of the process and like just intuition that guides the process. And you're sometimes like propelled by something that you can't verbalize at the moment.

(46:02 - 46:14)

It takes years for you to like reflect on it and figure out what it meant to you. Isn't that what, you know, isn't that what they call intuition? There's a word for that. There you go.

(46:15 - 46:40)

Talking about when language fails, you know, as artists, we can rely on images to communicate what we feel. And even at the end of each artwork, it doesn't quite encapsulate everything that we wanted to. And so there's always like this remainder that I think propels all of us forward to continue and try to say the thing that we wanted to say.

(46:43 - 47:03)

So that's the quote. Well, that's, yeah, that's, that's a really profound sort of quote just to, you know, explain that it's not, it's not just about words, what's, what's underneath the words or around the words or behind the words and how you can't, how you can't even put it into words. Yeah.

(47:05 - 47:42)

And even your own artistic intentions are maybe like, it's important, but it's also important that it's open for interpretation and you welcome others to, to feel things too when they see your work. So it's, you know, it's hard to describe that, that relationship between artistic intention and audience reception. Yeah, it should be fluid, right? Yeah.

(47:45 - 48:22)

You indicate that you like working with fashion magazines for your portraits, as there is a certain architecture to the poses. Are you looking for the stillness you create with your paper sculptures? In other words, from the dialogue you create with your mediums of paper illustrations, is there a deeper commentary you are communicating? I don't know if there's a deeper commentary. I, I just, yeah, I really like the architecture of the, of the gesture.

(48:22 - 48:35)

I like the quietness. So a lot of my figures are very still, they're stationary. They're not like dynamic or, you know, action poses.

(48:36 - 49:00)

I think I'm just looking for moments of quiet myself in my life and art is a way for me to kind of pause and reflect. And I think I just want to like live in that moment of like reflection. So for the paperwork, paper has a fragility to it.

(49:01 - 49:16)

And I like the combination of like the quiet with a fragile and like more vulnerable moments. And I honestly think like melancholy is like my default setting. So it's just like a mood or atmosphere that I'd like to occupy.

(49:22 - 49:48)

Oh, there's also another thing that, that I was thinking about recently, and they're talking about like literature and words. I don't know if you've came across the Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows. It is created by a guy named John Koenig, and he's interested in etymology and language.

(49:49 - 50:28)

And he created a collection of words that are made up, but they're used to describe like very specific feelings. And I think it's definitely like worth people's time to Google it, because there are very like specific words to describe a mental state or an emotional feeling that's hard to pin down and can't be summed up into like one word, but he manages it. So there's one word, I think it's to sonder.

(50:29 - 50:56)

And it is walking, when you're walking around and you have this realization that people around you have very rich interior lives. And again, like that's a very specific definition. But it's kind of nice when you're just thinking about language too, and there are some words, you know, in a different language that is like so perfect, like it sounds perfect.

(50:56 - 51:09)

It has a very specific definition that can't be translated into English. And so I just really love that project of his. And, you know, you pick up those words too.

(51:10 - 51:25)

And sometimes that can like spurn a feeling. So everyone, this is Christine Kim's announcement at her school right now. So we're just taking a momentary break.

(51:26 - 51:36)

But I also wanted to say duality, because earlier I didn't say that word correctly. So duality. Duality.

(51:38 - 51:48)

So I'll go back to where I left off. Oh, right. So John Koenig's Dictionary of Obscure Sorrows.

(51:49 - 52:19)

So I think just, you know, having some sort of a spark or inspiration to kickstart some sort of idea or visual is sometimes the way I work. So using a lot of like language and literature to, I don't know, just like feed my brain and then have it just cook a little bit and, you know, something will come out. So that's how I work.

(52:20 - 52:34)

When I flip through my sketchbooks, it's mostly words. And the images kind of come a little bit later, but I do like to write a lot. That's really good.

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They both influence each other, right? Yes, it's a back and forth. Words and pictures. Do you do that with, in your classes as well when you're teaching? It is tough.

(52:48 - 53:11)

I think, honestly, ChatGPT has infiltrated students' brains and it's preventing them from having their own independent thoughts. Oh, no. Really? So they're just doing ChatGPT assignments? Yes.

(53:11 - 53:18)

Doing them for them? Oh, no. Yes. So, you know, it's a mix of, it's a mix of sort of, you know, I'm a teacher, I'm a student.

(53:18 - 53:41)

In my senior level class, I do have them write a lot of artist statements and, you know, I find that about half of them are really proud of their writing and they would rather just, you know, say it themselves. And the other half, you know, they'll maybe run it through ChatGPT just to clean it up. And then there's just the lazy few.

(53:42 - 54:00)

Yeah, they just use ChatGPT with a simple prompt. So it really runs the gamut of ChatGPT use. But when I, you know, walk around the classroom, I do see a lot of, like, phones out and just, you know, putting in prompts and stuff like that.

(54:00 - 54:16)

So I don't know. It's really tough. I think any course that relies on reading and writing, they are having trouble, you know, battling against it.

(54:17 - 54:36)

So it's tough because, you know, writing in itself is a craft and it's maybe a craft that not many appreciate, especially now. So I don't know. No, I think there's a lot.

(54:36 - 54:43)

I think there's a lot of people that still appreciate it. It's just, I don't know. I think it's younger people probably.

(54:43 - 55:02)

If they didn't grow up reading a lot, then I think it's just not in their bones, you know. But people who, you know, are always, like, carrying around books, like, they know the difference and they know they can recognize a good voice. But yeah, it's hard.

(55:02 - 55:14)

It's hard to teach that kind of love for literature. Yeah, for language. Well, like you said, you have to be brought up with it.

(55:14 - 55:34)

You have to, it has to be in the family that you're surrounded by. Like, it's, like, I see that with people that they don't, yeah, they're not into reading or books or anything. And I just, I just think of them and I think, well, that means you're having basically a very sheltered life.

(55:35 - 55:59)

If you don't have that wealth of information and imagination and creativity, you know, that's what I find there is with books. But yeah, when there's people out there that don't appreciate it, it's like, yeah, I think that it's, yeah, but you can't really, you can't really teach it to people. It just has to, it has to be something that they learn as they're sort of developing and growing up.

(55:59 - 56:36)

And it's also just an act of empathy, too, to step into someone else's world and, you know, learn about someone else's experiences. So it's, yeah, it's tough. Yeah, because I guess some people, they just, they don't see the value in it because of the kind of life that they have lived elsewhere, right? I guess that, or even in Canada, I guess there's just environments where people are living that it's just not seen as valuable.

(56:37 - 57:02)

Yeah, I think they just haven't found the right book. I think it takes one book to really open up your eyes and discover what literature can do for you and your internal life. It just makes yourself, it just, I don't know, enriches you in a way that can't be really translated.

(57:04 - 57:16)

You know, it's a very individual kind of experience. Yeah, it's hard to teach that. Yeah, yeah, it is.

(57:19 - 57:25)

But we can just hope for things to change. Yes, yes, I know. That's what teaching is.

(57:25 - 57:53)

It's like this persistence of hope. What has been your experience with the gallery circuit? Have contemporary galleries used your unique approach as a launching point for displaying your work, or have they tried to pigeonhole your work in any way? I've had some great experiences with galleries. They, I think they really appreciate the unique style.

(57:55 - 58:11)

And since I started, there have been a number of like paper artists who have pushed the medium. So it really helps bring this craft into the fine art space. So there's been a few shows just centered on paper itself.

(58:11 - 58:23)

So I think there's like, you know, strength in numbers. And in this community, it's wonderful to see so many different approaches and perspective. Perspectives using the same medium.

(58:23 - 58:46)

So I've had, I've worked with a number of galleries, unfortunately, over COVID, a couple of them have closed down. So trying to find like a new home for my work, because it's just been kind of sitting in my parents basement, basically. I really, you know, appreciate the efforts of each gallery.

(58:46 - 59:13)

It's a really tough, tough gig to be a champion of your roster of artists. And I'm, yeah, I like, there's one gallery, Gallery Youn in Montreal, who has just scooped me up. When I was really young, I was at the Toronto Outdoor Art Show.

(59:13 - 59:22)

And it was my first booth, it was my, you know, debut. It's the arts community. And he just approached my booth.

(59:22 - 59:35)

And the work was really rough. Like looking back on it, it was so like amateur hour. I was just trying to figure out like framing and, you know, just dealing with the business and just everything.

(59:36 - 59:56)

So I feel like I've grown up a lot since then. But it's just, I don't know, I feel really nostalgic. And like, so appreciative of, you know, galleries who have, like, you know, invited me to show with them.

(59:56 - 1:00:09)

And it just gives you a sense of like, you know, someone believes that this is like, worthy of a larger audience. And so it's just that validation is really nice. Mm hmm.

(1:00:11 - 1:00:20)

Yeah, galleries are amazing at what they do. Yeah. Well, we have reached the end of the questions for this interview.

(1:00:21 - 1:00:34)

And it was a pleasure hearing about your creative practice and how you work. If there's anything you would like to add, now is the time. Oh, I'm actually working on an online course.

(1:00:34 - 1:01:00)

So it's, it's something that's been on my mind for a while, just because I'm a teacher, and it kind of comes naturally to me. I've had a lot of people reach out to me to ask me about my creative process. And I think it was maybe during COVID, I did my first online workshop with this app called Daisy.

(1:01:01 - 1:01:17)

And it was just a really great experience. I met people from like LA to Spain to Italy. And it was live, so I could get immediate feedback and see people's faces and see them in their spaces.

(1:01:18 - 1:01:41)

And I've just talked about my creative process. This online course that I'm working on, I want to really just walk people through an example collage. And so I've just been kind of crafting it in my brain right now and hoping to record it over the summer.

(1:01:41 - 1:02:01)

So if people are interested, they can sign up to the waiting list that's on my Instagram page. And or they could sign up to my newsletter, because I'll be emailing my people once it's done. So yeah, that's been kind of cooking in my brain lately.

(1:02:03 - 1:02:14)

And I will put your website on the podcast page for you. So yeah. Thank you so much.

(1:02:15 - 1:02:22)

It's honestly, this is my first podcast interview. It's been great. Thanks for having me on.

(1:02:24 - 1:02:32)

No problem. I was just going to say, yeah, thank you so much for being on the show. And I will get this to you as soon as I can.

(1:02:33 - 1:02:36)

Okay, great. Thank you. All right.

(1:02:36 - 1:02:41)

Awesome. So thank you, Christine Kim. And maybe we'll chat again in the future.

(1:02:42 - 1:02:45)

Yes, for sure. See where you're at. Okay, awesome.

(1:02:45 - 1:02:48)

All right. All right. Again, thank you so much.

(1:02:50 - 1:02:53)

Okay, bye. Okay, thanks. Have a good one.

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Join me next time as I go down another rabbit hole with another creative professional on their insights. Their inspirations and their ingenuity.