Anne McAlear: Shape Shifter Episode #20

          Exploring Art for 50+ years has proven to Anne MaClear that painting will always have it's challenges, and new ways of seeing. MaClear looks to find unexplored avenues to go down that provide new opportunities. Having the educational framework in her bones of numerous classes ranging from pastels, oil stick, embroidery, encaustic, wax, oil, and textile to name a few. 

     From her admiration of fellow Artists Mark Rothko and Robert Motherwell - two pioneers from the Modernist art movement; more specifically Pop, and Abstract Expressionism.  MaClear punctuates her practice with flourishes from these two Artists. So subtly and pervasively, that they have an uncanny resemblance, but one that is not inherently obvious. This is a skill Anne has developed over decades in her creative practice.

Join me as we discuss the mediums, the message; what being Canadian addsto her practice, and what a little bit of chaos brings to artwork.  How titles are chosen; and how often people assume Abstract Art is easier, when in fact it is quite the opposite. Anne shares how and why she is intrigued to take on this style.

Connect with Anne MaClear: https://propellerartgallery.com/members/anne-mcalear/

Podcast Credits:

Anne MaClear/Carolyn Botelho

Audio Links from: Adobe Podcast
Podcast by Carolyn Botelho

Transcript

Anne McAlear Podcast

Carolyn Botelho Hello! Ann McAlear. I am pleased to have you on the show, today. You are a Canadian artist working in Toronto, Canada. I discovered you at the spectacular exhibition at Propeller Gallery in downtown Toronto, Canada. Beverley Daniels and you shared and complemented each other with your dynamic pieces. Your palettes, your style and techniques enhanced each other remarkably. So I like to sort of begin every interview with the question what drove you to select this career path? You have been an artist for over fifty plus years, experimenting with several mediums. You are currently exploring abstraction and collage. Was it loving what you can do with your hands, your emotional insights, how the mediums feel or something else? What inspired you to, select the cold wax? Yeah. It can lead to many things. Many new avenues of of working. While you have been exploring abstraction and collage, what in particular brought you to Mark Rothko and Robert Motherwell as your distinctive influences? May I kind of like a guide in a way. While researching you. I saw that you have said a little bit of chaos and never hurt. Were you meaning this socially, politically or expressively? Yeah, it's kind of. It's kind of like, that's what, uh, needs to be in there to kind of, kind of. Yeah, maybe they maybe they are similar. Even when you get closer to the end, you don't you don't feel like you, you get there kind of thing. Yeah, it's kind of. It's kind of like that's how you know, you're at the ending in a sense,

Anne McAlear it's like that's. when it says, okay, now, now I'm done. With all the mediums you have tried over the years from encaustic, oil stick, textile, silk painting and embroidery. What causes you to make the initial shift to a different medium? Is there a specific moment? Yeah. It sounds like you're you've just figured out a way to challenge yourself artistically. It's like, okay, if I want to get away from this, this is what I'm thinking. You're thinking like you're just. If I want to get away from this style of working that I've been working in, I'll just completely change the medium and then I won't let me do that. Um, the original style you were doing. And then it really forces you to to take on sort of a new way of working. And that's, that's really, that's really amazing to just be able to do that for yourself and know how to sort of restrict yourself in that way rather than, you know, finding an easy way that can just kind of kind of let you slowly move away, you know, like you, you just you just went headlong into. I'm just. Yeah, I'm going to completely change right now. Predictable. That's a good starting point, right? Start with that. That image that you see just before you go to sleep. And then it's like sort of a jumping off point that takes you to where the work is deciding to go. Yeah. You said you've been working for fifty plus years, right? And I was looking for your older, older work like over the years. And it was it was impossible to find. How did you do. How did you do that. Get it that all your older work is, is just gone. It's like that's that's that's amazing. Oh, good. Well, that's good though for right now, right? Yeah. You indicated in previous exhibitions that making abstract art is not easy for you, that you chose it because of your love for abstract expressionists. What intrigues you to take on this style yourself? Yeah, well, in a sense, I totally get what you mean. That you you're in the process and you're not. You're not like, you have a starting point and you're sort of you're figuring it out as you go, but is there maybe sort of like you're going along the same sort of paths that you've gone before. Or do you find that when you're working in the process of of making the artwork that that you do go through the same sort of pathways, but then you go, you go, even you take them even further and further, like you like it's it's it's kind of like, you know, it at the start and then you just you kind of branch off and you, you figure out the, the piece as you go kind of thing. Now that's good to know because I was thinking, with all the experience and all the different mediums that you've, that you've explored over the years that you know, you've like, yeah, you say you, you, you've been figuring out the process with each piece and you and you're just exploring it as you, as you go kind of thing. I was thinking that, yeah, there must be like some kind of pathways in, in, in this process with the each medium that you've kind of, you've kind of figured out, but then. No like, it sounds like you've, it's, it's totally new and totally unknown as, as you're exploring it kind of thing. And that's really, really, really good. To be a. What do you say that? Yeah. And it's it's your discovery of working with your hands and and using the medium and letting the the sort of, I don't know, the message or the, uh, just the expression of, of the moment or whatever you're feeling at that time just come through you and, and just communicate itself that way. Well, yeah. Because it's it's like it's it's like it's beyond being able to put into words. Right. It's like it's just coming through you the, the expression of the moment, the what you're thinking, what you're feeling. And it's just that's yeah, it's like the flow. It's like the, the chaos. It's just that's what's going into it. Right?

Anne McAlear Yeah.

Carolyn Botelho Yeah. Because you, you can't expect the inspiration to just hit you every time, right? Yeah. That's not going to to give you the essence of what you saw in your head the the day before or the week before. Right. Yeah. Like it's evolving as its as time is going by to to wherever it needs to be. You indicated in previous exhibitions that making abstract art is not easy for you, that you chose it because of your love for abstract. Oh jeez, did I just say this question twice? Yeah, I was I thought, no, I've done that. No I haven't, I've done that one twice. Okay. And again I seem to skip number six. This is the second time there's been no six in my questions. That's not good. I have something against the number six, it seems. All right, well, we're on number seven. So what is. Let's try that again. What is. What is it that confounds you with the unpredictable nature in working with these mediums? Because I saw you actually admitted to to that on one of your statements. Well, yeah. Like you said, um, for for a long time, you were working, uh, realistically, and and I just. I can't believe I can't understand how you can go so drastically from one sort of style to another. That is, that is completely and totally different. That it's just like, yeah, that that must have been such a giant sort of leap for you to do that. Yeah, it does sound like if you went from pastels to oil stick, there seems to be a bit of a, um, sort of a way to blend those two from from realism to abstraction. Yeah.

Anne McAlear Oh, yeah.

Carolyn Botelho Yeah. So I'm just kind of wondering about cold wax, so. Is that kind of like encaustic then? Oh, so it's like a just another medium to add to to the paint then. Relax. Finish. Yeah I think it shine it up kind of thing. Oh, wow. It does sound interesting. Thanks for that explanation. I didn't I don't know about cold wax, so it's good to good to know know that now. Like you said, you've been using it for so long. It's just it's become so familiar for you. How do you arrive at the titles for your pieces? Is it found while working with the mediums? How you are feeling with the mediums you are working with, or are they completely random? That's pretty funny that you use ChatGPT to name your your artwork. Well then it's totally subjective, right? You get to you get to be separate like you get let the computers just name it for you. And then yeah, it can be it can be completely like you were saying. It doesn't have any real connection specifically with the work you've done. It can be totally separate from from it entirely at the same time. And then and then the viewer can figure out what it means to them. It has been a few years since you have been working with oil stick and pastel. Your work from this time had an unfinished, sort of polished look to it. Where do you find this medium? Had you focused on artistically?

Anne McAlear Okay.

Carolyn Botelho So when you were working with oil stick and pastel. Where did you find this medium? Had you focused artistically?

Anne McAlear Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.

Carolyn Botelho You just you you want to keep working and that's and that's good too. Yeah. That's the fun part right.

Anne McAlear Mhm.

Carolyn Botelho And maybe when you were working with uh oil stick and pastel you were you're more focused on the realism at that time. Right. That's how you said you were working. Or value. Maybe that's the word you're thinking of as a has a sense of value to it. Because yeah, I get what you mean. Like it's well, now I can do this, but does that mean that there's going to be a use for it or. Well, somebody want this in their home? Exactly.

Anne McAlear Yeah.

Carolyn Botelho I often wonder what what do all all the, um, the artwork like where, where does it all go? Does do do artists sell all their work or do they have a secret house somewhere where they hide everything? Yeah, you can make it into new work. Artistically, you focus on your mediums as the message, I presume. In your previous work. Have you incorporated elements of metaphor, relationship or conflict? But what about the the chaos? That's kind of a little bit like the conflict.

Anne McAlear Mhm.

Carolyn Botelho Yeah. So the, the chaos or conflict is actually in the medium and it's, it's just with you and the medium and it doesn't, you don't, you don't think it it actually is sort of detected or seen by, by people that are, are looking at your work. Yeah, that that could be a a new direction for you. What have you incorporated from your recent art courses? Have you found your previous art education has surfaced in your creative practice? Although, wait a minute, I didn't even I didn't even really introduce you as as like with any of your, your sort of art education background. Did you want me to to do that or.

Anne McAlear Okay.

Carolyn Botelho It sounds like. Yeah. You've done. You've done everything. Everything. It doesn't sound like you need it. No, I don't think so. I think it may help you get your foot in the door. Maybe, but that's about it.

Anne McAlear Yeah.

Carolyn Botelho How has being a Canadian artist, specifically Toronto from Toronto, impacted your creativity? Well, I don't think. I don't think, um, many people have all the all the time to do that. Right. It's it's a lot if you want to really be, as they say in the scene, the art scene. Right. There's just how can you go to all the shows? It's just there's just so, so many artists out there, for one thing. And then if you're making your own work and doing your own shows, it's just it's a lot, I think, I don't think, I don't think there are many people that can do can do that unless they're already sort of involved in, you know, being part of a gallery in some sense. Right. Like administratively, I I think that's really the only way that the people can do all of that. I don't know, that's just me, though. It seems. It seems like a lot to to. The Robert McLaughlin. You mean or.

Anne McAlear Oh.

Carolyn Botelho Well, I'm sure you can find the time eventually, right, to get to them. Actually, it says here that the Roberts Gallery was established in eighteen forty two. So it's. It's been around a long time. Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's up on DuPont. Yeah. I wasn't even familiar. I thought you were talking about the one on Young Street. I don't even remember the name of that one now anyway. Yeah, that's, that's that's a gallery to definitely go to. That. Yeah, they definitely have a lot going on, which is good. I just I didn't even know about this gallery up on DuPont. But yeah, add it to the list, right. Of all the galleries we need to get to. But there. Yeah, there's there's a lot there's a lot to do for sure. And you, you you're definitely, definitely doing a lot with, with all the mediums you're using. That's that's really admirable. Okay. We have reached the end of our questions already. It was great to have you here. Um. I was honestly super excited because, uh, just with your, uh, sort of focus on Rothko and Motherwell that just that really intrigued me. And especially I should have introduced you at the beginning as just finishing the. Shape shift at Propeller Gallery. Yeah, that was a really good show with, uh, with you and, uh, Beverly Daniels. Yeah. Okay. Uh, we have reached the end of our questions already. It was great to have you here. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. It has. It's it's just nice. It's just great to talk with artists like, I'm, I, I I'm surprised there's not a lot of podcasts out there talking to artists. I, I it's been hard to find that. And I think, I hope that me starting will get more, more people doing it. Yeah, exactly. Like, I find that too with with going to galleries. It's like you see the finished product and maybe you can get a chance to talk to the artist, but I'm sure their minds in a million places at that time. So they and they probably won't be able to talk to you for long. So you're, you're not going to get, you know, the what it was like making the work or what what they were feeling or thinking or, you know, all that that goes into to making the works that are on the walls. Like I just yeah, I just feel that this is this is good for everybody. Yeah. And not just the finished product. I mean, the finished product is a good part of it, but it's nice to nice to know just a little bit more. Exactly. So thank you for being on the show, and I will get to this interview as soon as I can. If there's anything you would like to add about your creative practice, now is the time.

Anne McAlear Mhm. Yeah. Mhm.

Carolyn Botelho So I will uh be providing your uh sort of contact info on the podcast as well. And uh. And yeah that's that's it.

Anne McAlear Yeah.

Carolyn Botelho Yeah. yeah, I'm still figuring out the whole, um, advertising part of it. That's a whole other thing. But. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just. Yeah, it's still all new to me, but it's like getting it out there is the big part. Right. That's, that's the main part and that's the important part. So. All right. Well thanks again and I will get this to you. And, and then yeah there'll be um some sound bites which is clips from the show which, which you can put on your Instagram and, and then yeah, it, it gets more people, more people engaged and then and then. Yeah, it'll just, it'll keep growing from there. And then before you know it, everybody will be listening to, to your, to your interview. And it'll just be more, more advertising for you. Yeah.

Anne McAlear Awesome.

Carolyn Botelho Okay. Okay, great. Yeah. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you. Ann McClure McNutt. I keep getting it wrong. Michael McClure. No, I'm just kidding. McAleer. McClure. McClure. See, I said it. I said it a bunch before, and then I just. It slipped out of my head because I. I keep wanting to go to McClure, but it's. McClure. McClure. Right. McAleer. McAleer. Okay, so it's like you said. The spelling. McAleer. McAleer. Okay. So. Yeah. McAleer. McAleer. Okay. So thank you so much. Ann. McAleer. All right. Talk to you again soon.

Anne McAlear. Thank you. Carolyn. Well, that's that's a question that's kind of easy. Um, I've been doing art my whole life. I'm just compelled to do it. I have always liked working with my hands. I'll do a variety of things. And, um, it was just. It was just my nature. When I think of doing anything else, it just doesn't make sense. What was the other part of the question? I think I missed it. Thank you. Carolyn. Uh, I since I have been an artist my whole life, I feel totally driven just to do art. And the currently, with the cold wax abstraction, it's just something I became incredibly fascinated with over the past three or four years. Uh, and wanted to attempt it, tried it on my own, but, uh, didn't wasn't too successful at the beginning, but but held on to it just to continue future. I had seen many examples of it online. I follow people on Instagram and there is one woman that was doing semi monumental sort of paintings that looked like Italian walls, but they were just with a cold wax and textures and a minimal color. But it was beautiful and I really thought I'd like to try that now, fully knowing that you can't copy. You can try copying copying somebody else's work, but it never ends up looking like their work, and it ends up taking you down different paths that you actually find a little more enjoyable. Always. There's always things that are in the horizon that you want to do, and you hope you have time. I have also been. Even when I was before I was doing abstract, I really admired both of their work. Um, Rothko for the quiet, the quiet sort of serenity, and Robert Motherwell for it looked like what he did was immediate, without thought. It just seemed very, um, quick and expressive. Um, so it's always kind of been in the back of my mind whenever I work, trying not to look too much like Rothko, because that would be too easy. Um, but always having that sort of color sense, um, a little bit helpful in my mind. That would have to be expressively, socially and politically never show up in my art. It's always, um, totally out outside of my whole sensibility when it comes to art. But when I mean with chaos is that when you're working on things, sometimes it looks like it's not going well. It looks like you've added something and maybe you shouldn't, but that also tends to take you onto different paths when you try to deal with whatever thing that you've put in there that maybe is a little bit too chaotic as the word. So, um, I find, I find it sometimes is surprising what you end up with when you allow that little bit of chaos to come into the work. The work might not end up looking like it has chaos in it. But while you're working, it feels like chaos. And that's just the it's kind of like the the necessity for the recipe, I guess, for that. Yes, yes, it's always a surprise when it shows up. It's not planned, but sometimes it's good. It's just like when people talk about flow, that's it'd be great to have flow and recognize that. I usually end up trying to get to flow and end up with a little chaos. Mm. Yes, I think so. I think I just maybe we're just naming it differently, but uh, flow to me usually means that everything is working out exactly how you wanted it. And I don't always find that. It's it that is funny because I don't always know when it is the end. Um, I will often put work aside thinking it needs more work, and I'll maybe look at it for a week or more. Sometimes in months. I just can't figure out what to do next. And. And then suddenly it just it just looks finished. Or you add a few extra lines and it's finished. And you don't know that. You don't know when it's actually until you know, you can't work on it anymore. It's just it says it's done. So a little frustrating, but you know, it's it's happened to work for me I guess for a lot of my pieces recently. Yes. Yep. There's this. Like I've had one piece and it actually sold really quickly. I had done it and I just didn't feel like I felt all of everything on the picture was an underpainting that it needed way more. And I couldn't, I couldn't figure out what else to put on it. So I just left it, which is happened to be the perfect answer, really. Not to just don't touch it, just leave it. Yes, yes. I know it's just what I say when I see work that I really admire. I always want to give it a try. Um, I had always been doing embroidery my whole life, but then I saw something online that took it a little bit farther, so I thought I would try that. Um, I really like the outcome, but it's so labor intensive because it's all hand embroidery that it's, um, I'm trying to put it to a pastime instead of something that I'll focus on specifically, but with the others. Uh, pastel. I've always admired. I've bought pastels. I don't know, back in the eighties. I still have them. I still use them. Um. I love the quality of pastel. I love the the flexibility of it. The only problem with pastel is the, um, it's work on paper. You have to put it under glass. Last show I did, I had quite a few pieces under glass because they were pastel, and I just felt there was a lot of glare with pastel, and I like to see the work a little more immediate. So then at one point I thought, fine, I will switch to the oils. Excuse me? The cold wax. The I love the oil stick too, because what happened was originally my work was very realistic, very detailed as well, and I wanted to get away from that. I thought the best way to do that is to work with material that won't allow me to be detailed. An oil stick being like a very fat crayon just made of oil paint, um, wouldn't let me. And that was the whole challenge is not letting you do that. Then you have to learn to do something totally different with the medium instead of going into your realism working from photographs or from life. So, um, that's how the all the different mediums has kind of led me into these different realms of, of how to work. Yes, it had to be drastic. Yes. And also because I was finding that the anything in realism was starting to was going to sound awful, but it's starting to bore me because everything didn't have my distinctive. Um, if you looked at the art, you wouldn't have said, oh, that's Anne's work. But now people look at my work and say, no, it still looks like your work. It's still, you know, follows the same path. Um, and I didn't want it always to look so, so perfect. So, um. Predictable. That's why this new this work is like, it's it's very challenging. It's not predictable. What I have in my mind to make and never really shows up in the end piece. So I just use whatever ideas I have as a starting block and and see where it takes me. Um, I sometimes wake, you know, just before I fall asleep. I get this, this flashing image of color and shapes and I think, oh, that's fantastic. That would look great in this medium. And then by the time it gets onto a panel, uh, it starts not looking how I saw it, it looks like something totally different. So I just go with that. Yeah. That's it. Exactly. It's just, you know, not getting too frustrated as well when it doesn't follow the path that I had initially set. Um, I've learned not not to, um, not to try to fight it because trying to make something that you've, you have in your mind never really works. You know, people will tell you that all the time. And I, I've told other people who are were, um, you know, frustrated with the outcome. And I said, well, take what you've got and make it work in a different way. Yes, yes. It, um, it never went online. It never had I never had a website. I still do not all my, um, technical No help is moved away as children, and they don't have the time to help me make a website, and I don't think I would know how to maintain it. So I kind of work with Instagram. Yes. Yes. When I look at the Abstract Expressionists, I would feel something. And I like to look at something that might not have any, uh, you know, basis in reality and get a feeling, whether it's excitement or whether it's beauty or, you know, whether it's just kind of, like, almost disturbing. I like that a piece of work can make you feel those ways. Um, right now, I know I'm not working large enough to actually do that. And still, because I my influences are Rothko and Motherwell, that my pieces aren't really kind of like a shocking or disturbing or kind of like in-your-face. They're still kind of muted and, and, um, more about color and texture right now. So yes, it's always a challenge because as I said before, you really don't know what you're doing. Uh, you just look for the outcomes. Well, I've tried to. Sometimes I will end up with a piece and I love it, but because there might be so many layers on it, I would. I think I would like to try that again. I know the path that I started on to get to that point. And then but then with the end piece, uh, the path has been obliterated. And so I look at some pieces and I'll say, I don't even know how I did that, because however, I started to approach it. That's gone. And so I'm not I'm only left with a piece of work that I kind of say, I really like this now. Uh, but whether I try to follow it again, it's impossible. So every piece is like an island unto itself, insofar as that, you know, I can't I can't, um, mimic something that I've done. Even if even if I know sometimes you say I'm going to copy that. The copy never really turns out to look like the original. There's always something about it that that changes that you. You try to tighten up or you loosen up or something. So I can't even do that. And I wish I had that ability to kind of, like, recreate something, but, uh, uh, who knows? Maybe I'm better off this way. Not not having a path. I do wish. I do wish that I had some sort of clarity for myself, because I still feel like I'm floundering. And maybe, maybe that's why the work is turning the way it is, I don't know. But when I when I read about Robert Motherwell, I found out that some of his very, very large wall pieces that he made, he actually made really small, like sketchbook pieces of that and could literally duplicate it on this large canvas, but still make it look fresh, as if he had just thought it up. I don't have any of that. So, um, I could do I don't even use a sketchbook anymore because I don't know how I would translate anything from the sketchbook into this other medium. I just always start with a blank mind and a blank panel, and, uh, I'll lay down some color so I don't have the white board looking at me. Uh, and I might just put it on with rollers. I might put it on with a palette knife to get some texture starting, and then just start layering on other colors, and some colors work. And the ones that don't, you, you paint over, uh, sometimes because it's a waxy medium, Him. Even after a couple of days, you could take a tool and scratch through to the original layer so you get different color lines coming through. You could use some tools that you press into it so they leave a mark as if you were leaving. As I say, like in a waxy surface. I've done all that, and that kind of changes the texture. Sometimes it when you put the next layer on, it changes the color because it picks up that, that texture. So I as I say, there's so many Variabilities and Motherwell just worked in oil and he just put oil down and put more on and followed his previous sketch and came up with fabulous looking masterpieces. And I know that's not never going to be me. Uh, because I don't have so. So I'm going to keep working and I'm going to start working larger. But I don't have any idea what it's going to be, what it's going to look like. I don't know what the color sense is going to be. It's all as if I'm starting fresh from scratch again, as if at the beginning of this show that I just completed. Um, and I know because I have some experience with medium now, things will change, but I have no idea. And I don't know, sometimes that's good. Not so I don't have that. I don't have that pressure of having to fulfill certain, um, ideas or continue making work that looks the same because there's just no way that would happen. It's kind of fun too, though. It's kind of fun just to have a a panel, a canvas, and not knowing what's going to happen and keeping in your mind it doesn't matter. And that took me a long time to get to that. It's like it doesn't matter what you put down because it's changeable. And when it comes to abstract, there's so many possibilities of changing everything that you like. If it's a total failure, fine. You put another color over the top, you change it all, and suddenly you it it seems to work because you're just doing things like not caring almost. But whatever what ends up and looks better than what you started with. So that's kind of fun. If there was a message? That would be it. Yes, yes. Yes, that's what I, I sometimes I come up to the studio and just sit and stare. But I thought at least you have to be in the studio. You can't just think that you'll come up with an idea and then you'll show up here. You have to be present in order, because sometimes you'll just look over and you'll see a piece that was half finished and you, it comes in your mind what it could use and you put it on. You should always just be here. Even if nothing is happening. Could escape. Exactly. You have to. And you have when you do get those flashes like I did. You know, before I fall asleep, if I don't work on it like the next day at least, or the day after it's gone, I don't remember what it was. I did go, oh yeah, it was something red, but that's not really helpful. It's not. It's not going to lead me anywhere. Except. Except I have a red canvas sitting by, you know, it's not very helpful. Exactly, exactly. And I'll end up being something else, which is, you know, fine. It'll as long as it's there's work happening. It's a good thing. Yes, exactly. I think so. Yes, I think it's the. Mm. How would I put it. It's the medium that I didn't quite understand at the beginning what, what it was about. And how are you going to act. Because I've seen pictures online of people doing cold wax but making them look very realistic. And I thought, well, I think for me that would be not what the medium is meant for. If you want to do something realistic, then use the mediums that are most easy or, you know, available for making that. But cold wax seems to be, uh, personally speaking, of course, because I'm very prejudiced now about this, uh, that just seems to lend itself more to abstract. So, um, what is confounding me? I, uh, I think just the fact that I'm doing it at all confounds me. I just as I say, but I am compelled to work. I'm just compelled to keep. Keep doing it. Yes, but I think when I finished doing with pastel and a lot of the realistic work, I went to oils techniques. I think that was a nice kind of like leeway for going from the realism. I tried to do things with the oils. I did some, Uh, how would you say some kind of abstract playing cards? Very large. And I they weren't exactly looking like the regular playing cards, but you could tell because they had the two figures, top and bottom, that that kind of led me into more just patterning textures with oil stick. And so I think from that to cold wax, uh, wasn't such a huge leap. Um, I think I would have continued on doing like a lot of more face cards with, with oil stick. But I started to it started to get tight again. So I had to stop. Yeah. But yeah. Pastel and oil stick. Yes. Actually, you can put I think one of the works I have done, I put pastel on top of the cold wax. Uh, you think it would kind of, like, get rubbed off or somehow get altered? But I found that if you're putting something on cold wax, if I just take the cold wax itself without any pigment in it and go over it, it does not remove the pastel it. If anything, it just protects it. And then once it's dried, it's there forever. So I'm going to play a little bit more with that, that if I find out that that works, since it was only like one line that I put in with pastel. But if that works, that might be another, um, another avenue for, for adding to this, uh, medium of oil. Oil? Um, sorry. Cold wax. Keep getting mixed up with all this. Yes. Actually does work with oil stick as well. Ah, no, let me explain. But let me explain about cold wax. It comes in a jar and it's soft. It looks like Crisco. It's white and it's a mixture of beeswax, some solvents, and I think a little bit of, uh, resin. Since I buy it, I don't make my own, and it's very soft. You put your oil paint on a palette and you take, um, equal amount or just less than equal amount of the cold wax and you blend it in together. So what that does is it changes the properties of the oil paint. So it's all the same. There is no there's what is this? Leon. No, don't put lean over fat sort of rules. Well, those rules are out. You just have to treat them all the same. So you can. When you apply it, you apply it. Either you could apply it with a brush, but it doesn't. For me, it at least leaves brush marks I don't like. And it's too thick, but I apply it with a roller. One of those rubber scrapers. Like a spatula or palette knife. And, um. And with the because it's got the wax in it, it actually it doesn't dry faster, but it leaves the next day or later that day if it's if the coating was put on not too thickly, you can work on top of it right away. And it you, you know, you can disturb the other layer or you can not disturb the other layer. It seems to be really, um, versatile and open that way. Yes. And caustic and caustic is, um, so labor intensive. You've got you've got your heat, you've got your, your pigments, and you've got to fuse the layers together with some sort of heat. Wear this for me is immediate. It's just you mix it, you put it on and it's got a, as I say, a bit of a waxy substance to it. As a matter of fact, when the picture is finished and leave it for a couple of weeks to really, really dry, um, I can buff it and give it a nice sheen, like, because it's got a wax consistency to it. Or it enhances the texture as well when you do that. Yes. I'm sorry, I just, you know, having used it for about a year now, I just assume everybody has an idea, but I mean, I did not have an idea before, so I don't I don't know why I should just turn it around like that. Exactly, I think so. I'll have to confess. So when I work on the pieces, I do not think of any names whatsoever. It's, um. And then when it's time, I have to give them titles, because it just makes it easier for people to refer to. I find I don't want to, um, choose any titles that would put an idea into somebody's head of what you know, of images, because most people, they look at some art and they'll say, oh, I see a dog, or I see a house. That's fine, you can do that. But I don't want to lead them to see the dog or the house. I don't want them to be, you know, anything but approach the work with their with their own ideas. So what I have done, I confess, is I went to ChatGPT. I, I told them I wanted, I don't know, twenty, thirty names, one word, uh, for abstract art. And, um. Wow, they're very good that ChatGPT people. They came up with a lovely list. I just kind of like, said. Oh, yes, this one goes with that work. This one goes with that and a couple of names I did figure out myself because I just had I looked at it and I thought, oh yes, this. But, um, I really don't want to make name things and I just don't want the name to be too long, and I don't want it to guide or inspire people to think of that. I want them to approach a work, um, as I want them to. I want them just to be totally open. Ah! It's true. And considering I'm so computer illiterate, this is perfect for me. Just to give the whole, you know, get on and pass over the responsibility of naming art. Yes. That's what I'm always hoping. I think you're going to have to repeat that question. With the oil stick and pastel. Oh, you're going to have to make me think back when I've already kind of cleared my brain of all that I would, because sometimes I would love to go back and do that pastel again. I would love to go back and like, just pastel. And I remember just recently, not recently, but was it maybe two years ago and I decided to pick pastel again. I did a I did a portrait of my son and it's just extremely tight and realistic. Um, so I although I'd love to go back to it and I, I think I need to, um, maybe try doing something abstract and colorful. And I started doing that for my last show, and I had a few pieces that that seemed to to work out, but I know I'd love to go. That's the problem I have. I want to do everything. I want to do the pastel. I want to do the oil stick again. I'd want to do printmaking. I want to do it's like, who's got the time? And, you know, to do everything. It all just interests me. I just want to, uh, to keep doing it all. I don't know if that answers your question, but. But that's what it sparked. Yes, exactly. I just want to work sometimes. When you prepare for a show, it ends up being as much administrative work as it is doing the work. Um, so you have to be ready far in advance? I think. So it's like, how many pieces do you have? And then then you have to title. Then you might have to frame. Then it's all the, um, the extra work. I think I'd just rather be working on the art. Yes, absolutely. Even even the frustrating. It's still fun. Yes. Uh, not. Yes. Not with the oils, with pastel, for sure. It was all about still life and portraits. It used to be. And it's just to me, it just to me. Sometimes when you when you get if you feel you're getting really good at something. To me, I look at it as like a parlor trick. Oh, look what I can do. But is it is it really a piece of art that somebody would want in their house? Is another question. The fact that you could do something doesn't mean that it's some kind of universal or. Presentable to other people? Yes. Yes, exactly. And at some point when you're doing work for yourself, you it it piles up and you wonder what you're going to do with it all and why you made it. If it's not for public consumption at some point or just viewing, just look at it, please. You know, but it's it's got to a point where it's like, if I'm not going to continue doing that and make it worthwhile for for showing, then maybe I should move on and try something new. That would be the latter, I think, because I don't know, I have a I have a friend in New York and she was very successful, but of course she didn't sell everything. And a lot of her paintings are very large, and she said, she's got a little she lives in an apartment. It's not like she has a lot of space. And she's got a little storage room beside her apartment, and it's just crammed because the work that was, that was selling before anything that was left over, it doesn't get shown again, it's not necessarily available again. So she has this dilemma as well of like where do you put it? Now, a lot of my work that was on oil in the oil stick and pastel, it was on paper and I have a flat file, I can just store it, but at some point it's very gets very full. I have to have to deal with some of that. Maybe, maybe that's where the collage comes in. Works that, you know, are older, that you can't use. Maybe for a show or for anything else, then think about using it up. Maybe it's hard, but it's possible. Yeah, that's always a hope. You know what people want to do. It's like if they could use it somehow. No, no, because that would mean you have a specific idea in your mind that you want to put out there or to depict or or give the impression of or feeling. Um, and that it's almost like some artists think that art should be political. Uh, I don't personally think that that's fine for for some people to always want to make political art. But no, there's no message here. It's just, um, it's just my playing and my expression with a medium. But that. But that would just be the chaos for me. Would I go through what I see, what I will see as I'm making. But I don't think I want to, um, imply chaos to to the viewer. Unless, unless it's one of those things where right away, I think, I think of, um, de Kooning. I mean, his work, it was always look a little bit chaotic when the earlier pieces he did, but for some reason it just seemed to all work out. Um, I haven't gotten there yet. Who knows? Who knows? It just might all turn around. And chaos will be the the end point. Detected. That'd be. That would be interesting. If if if they could detect it, that would mean maybe I, I, I let it I don't know that's a good, good question because, um. Sometimes the chaos would look just like it's working. And some people do want pieces that are a little bit more, um, active than maybe that's where our chaos would come in. I should keep this in mind for the future work as to how to, uh, let it go more instead of trying to, uh, just use it as a tool, let it show up on the panel. That would be. That would be something. I'll take any sort of, uh, hints, advice or, you know, everything. Everything is kind of like fodder for for an idea. No, Know that it's fine if we. I'll mention it right here, right now. I did not finish university. I took art at York, but did not finish. And after that, even funnier. I applied to OCA before the before it was okayed. Back when you're talking fifty years working. So, um, I applied and I was I was rejected and because I was rejected there. So I went to York and because I dropped out there, I felt I was missing out on the lesson that would make you an artist. I thought, there's obviously there's some secret that I'm not getting. So what happened then is I took absolutely every art course that I could find. I went to George Brown. I went to Ocad at night. I went to Central Tech. Um, which is has wonderful art courses. I took life drawing. I everything, everything I took, I took. Um, there's art courses at Haliburton in the summer. Uh, a few of them. Some of them I would just take for for fun. And a few of them actually taught me things. It was last summer that I went and did a course on this on cold wax. Mainly about, um, how to apply it and how to layer it and what to do. And the interesting things, you could work with it. The instructor was, was, uh, she was good, but she kind of wanted you to make certain things when I was very resistant to following some of her ideas. But I learned from all of that anyway, about cold wax and the different things you could try with it. She was telling you things about. You can take solvent and pour it on the work afterwards, and it changes everything. Or you can add she had add collage Underneath on the panel, and what it does is it makes a different texture, because the cold wax will always pick up the edges of those papers that you stick down. So I have been taking that's my my art instruction has been very spotty, but it's been pretty well solid throughout my life that I was taking some courses. I took jewelry making, I've taken pottery. I've taken, as I said, printmaking of course, several times. I am so interested in doing everything. Except. Except get the degree. Yes. Not anymore. Anyway, I back when I dropped out. University wasn't so important. You didn't need it to do things. You didn't need it to get a job. But everything has changed now. And you can't do anything without some sort of degree. I don't know if that's. Maybe it. Maybe it's helpful insofar as people can mature when they're taking more lessons, courses and whatever. But for getting a job or, you know, pursuing an art career, I don't I'm not sure that that's always the the only way to do it. Yes, yes, it makes people at least look at your your resume or your history. Yes. I think because there's nowhere else I'd rather be besides New York, of course. Who wouldn't want to live in New York in an art scene? But I'm definitely Canadian. Everything I think of, I follow the Canadian artist from the Group of seven on. I try to keep on top of it all. Um, does it impact? It might impact. And so as much as, um, I my I'm not pushy. My work isn't pushy and out there really loud. I don't know if that's a Canadian attribute or just me. I tend to be I'm an introvert, so I, um, I don't know, I, I don't follow much else outside of, uh, I don't follow art. I follow art historically, but I do not go to the galleries here very often. And I know that is a, uh, something that I should be doing. I know that's a fault. I have is not just being totally in the scene. Yes. Yes it is. And there seems to be new galleries popping up all the time and the ones that are really well established, um, I think is it the Roberts Gallery in Toronto that's been around since the thirties, I think. Um, but I've never been to it, and I should have, you know, now, I know that it's been around forever. Perhaps I should, uh, check it out, but, uh. No, it's just called Roberts Gallery. Is it? I'm not sure. Who. Who? Um, it's been like. It's been called Roberts Gallery since the thirties, so I don't know. What the who really owns it now? I think the only other gallery I had been to and keep my eye on would be, uh, Philly Fine arts. They do mostly Inuit prints and sculpture, which I always find really compelling. I always love those those prints, but that's the only one, so I'm a little bit embarrassed, let's say, about this. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes, that sounds right. Now that we're talking about it, I think I will. I feel compelled or shouldn't be talking about something and know nothing about it. Yes, it was very, very good for me, I was surprised. Yes. Yeah. You were right at the beginning, are we? We were accidentally in the same gallery at the same time. We when we sign up, we don't really know who is on the other side of the the double gallery there. So it worked out very well. Her work was was perfect. It was just like you say, complemented each other very nicely. Thank you. Carolyn. You know, it's given me a lot more to think about when you get questions like this. It it really makes you look inward and ask more questions of yourself. So this has been really, really a lot of fun. I liked it too because we talked a lot about process, which I'm which I would love to hear more of from other artists. When you look at paintings or you go to a show, if you're an artist, you want to get close and find out how it was done, or what the medium is and how things work. It's just really important to me. So this has been nice for me to be able to talk about process. We all need the details. It's like peeking behind the curtain, yes, I agree. Oh no, I think I think you gave me a chance. I pretty well covered all of it, especially since you let me, uh, you prompted me to talk about what Cold Wax was and how it was used. That was. That's always important for me to explain. Oh, it's been really lovely of the conversation. So thanks very much. This was this was a lot of fun. Ah, yes. Yes. I'll be fine. I have two more artists from the gallery I spoke to. if you and I could send you their emails if you're interested. I find both their works is really, really nice, really compelling. So I'll send you their emails. Okay. Okay. Thank you. Carolyn. Okay. Goodbye.