What if I told you that the key to success in the oil and gas industry goes beyond mere technical know-how and instead lies in the intersection of vision, hard work, and a relentless drive for building strong connections? Join us this week as we welcome Michael Hale, Vice President of Exploration at Novo Oil and Gas, who delves into his 15-year sojourn in this challenging yet rewarding industry. From navigating hundreds of permits to developing acreage positions in northern Delaware, Michael's determination and perseverance are an inspiration for us all.
In our candid discussion with Michael, we investigate the paradoxes and pitfalls of this intricate industry. Michael not only shares his experiences of working through the market's downturns, including the recent COVID pandemic, but also his unique application of the Stockdale Paradox. It's here where unwavering faith meets brutal acceptance of reality, and the importance of a positive yet realistic mindset is emphasised. Michael's insights and experiences provide a fresh perspective on how to approach challenging situations and stay motivated in the midst of adversity.
We round up our conversation with a focus on effective leadership and personal growth. Michael underscores the importance of knowing your team's strengths and weaknesses, managing fear, and the value of self-reflection. He brings to the table his personal journey towards success and happiness, and how his definition of success has been his fuel over the past 15 years. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom and insights from an industry veteran and is sure to offer valuable lessons for every listener. Tune in to hear about Michael's journey and his take on navigating uncertainty and transition.
What if I told you that the key to success in the oil and gas industry goes beyond mere technical know-how and instead lies in the intersection of vision, hard work, and a relentless drive for building strong connections? Join us this week as we welcome Michael Hale, Vice President of Exploration at Novo Oil and Gas, who delves into his 15-year sojourn in this challenging yet rewarding industry. From navigating hundreds of permits to developing acreage positions in northern Delaware, Michael's determination and perseverance are an inspiration for us all.
In our candid discussion with Michael, we investigate the paradoxes and pitfalls of this intricate industry. Michael not only shares his experiences of working through the market's downturns, including the recent COVID pandemic, but also his unique application of the Stockdale Paradox. It's here where unwavering faith meets brutal acceptance of reality, and the importance of a positive yet realistic mindset is emphasised. Michael's insights and experiences provide a fresh perspective on how to approach challenging situations and stay motivated in the midst of adversity.
We round up our conversation with a focus on effective leadership and personal growth. Michael underscores the importance of knowing your team's strengths and weaknesses, managing fear, and the value of self-reflection. He brings to the table his personal journey towards success and happiness, and how his definition of success has been his fuel over the past 15 years. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom and insights from an industry veteran and is sure to offer valuable lessons for every listener. Tune in to hear about Michael's journey and his take on navigating uncertainty and transition.
And welcome to a new energy crew podcast with me, your host, jp Warren, and I want to give a shout out to my wife, mike I'm not sure if you know this, but she was the one that put that, that banger together for the intro and outro music energy crew podcast. Well, she nailed it, man, she nailed it, and I want to thank everyone out there for tuning in. We are back for new rounds of conversations with with leaders, movers and shakers, and trying to find out what their passion is, what drives them, what their strengths are and what their struggles are as well, and just kind of try to have a conversation and to inspire, to connect to, to maybe understand that what you're struggling with is is not, you're not alone. There's other people facing the same challenges and the same passions. This, brought to you by exec fruit, exec crews will be a new professional executive networking member group that's going to be launching in Q4. We're going to be bringing in leaders, executives, founders, aspiring leaders to share their passions where the ideas everyone could be a teacher and everyone be a student And we're going to be bringing people into, connect, support, grow and and really just kind of expand your connections there. So you want to learn more. Check out connection crew dot com. Head over to exec crew and pre registered there. So, michael Hale, i think that is the finale of my intros. I want to welcome you to the show. Thanks for thanks for coming on yet again. And those that don't know Michael, you can go back. I think we did this. What do we do this 2021?
Speaker 2:or 2021? Maybe was it 21?.
Speaker 1:Was it 21? Might have been. I look, i think, from the from the years 21, 22 up to like middle of like 2023. It's all been a blur. So again for those that don't know Michael Hale, he is the vice president of exploration over at Novo oil and gas, sitting up in beautiful Oklahoma City, and I've been fortunate and blessed enough to know Michael over the past a couple years and call him a really good friend, so I'm excited to have you on. You're definitely one of the most intelligent, interesting and smartest and funniest cats I know, so I'm glad we're going to be, we're going to be doing this.
Speaker 2:So, uh, michael, i think you try to put your headphones on.
Speaker 1:There's been a, there's a little delay and, as you do that, i'm going to keep on rambling about what I don't. Oh, you have a gamer headphone, is that what you? use Is that what you use to play Xbox. He's connecting it. So, anyway, so everyone out there. So, uh, yeah, the new direction of energy group podcast is that if you're enjoying it, please share, tell people about it. Uh, leave a review, if you'd like, on uh, wherever you're listening to this too, and that helps definitely spread the word and maybe help inspire others in their search of passion and insight. And right now we're doing some technical issues with uh, with a head phone Set up to get better audio so you can download and absorb this, these nuggets of knowledge, a little bit quicker. You let me know when you're ready, mike, can you hear me better now? Oh man, you are like right next to me, brother, i love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you mentioned that these are gamer headphones, so, as you know, i'm a gamer. Uh, my wife bought these for me as a gift And then it turned out I could, for some reason could not link them to my uh, to my Xbox. And so yeah, So, uh, I waited so long to try and link them because I had other headphones that were working just fine And I was thinking, you know, I'll just wait until these other guys break and then I'll upgrade to these. And turns out, since I couldn't link them, I just had this really extensive, expensive uh headset that was useless, So I brought it up here to work and now I look like a. You look great. You look great. I'm playing Halo on the job.
Speaker 1:I mean that's, that's never a bad bad thing to do. So, michael, why don't you, why don't you get us kicked off a little bit and kind of give us a kind of a brief elevator summary on, uh, you know who you are and uh and all that fun stuff? So, uh, i'm gonna get kicked off on kind of what, what. what, what sparks your passion?
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, uh, so I've been working uh oil and gas for 15 years. Uh, I am actually from North Carolina, moved out here, uh, worked for a small consulting firm called uh Frontera Geosciences for like a year and a half. I went to Sandridge who was there? for three and a half years I was just a geologist Left Sandridge and I went to go work for Aubrey McLendon at uh American Energy Partners. I was the first geologist hired over there, a working level geologist. There were some managers, but, um, i I took over the Utica team and was the team lead there for like five and a half years or a little less than that, and then, um, i moved to Novo in uh September of 2018. So I've been here for coming up on five years. When did Novo get kicked off? Uh, actually like August of 2016. Oh, really.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, all right. Yeah, that's the thing. Like I mean, i I obviously I haven't spent much time up in Oklahoma until I started doing the Crew Club events, but yeah, novo was kind of flying under my radar, so I've really enjoyed meeting everyone that, uh, your team over there. I mean you brought me to a couple of lunches and I brought a couple of people to some Crew Club events. It's always good to get to know, uh, the people that you get to spend your time without work. Uh, some solid, solid people over there.
Speaker 2:Well, novo is we always kind of like to say, uh, our company is like our acres position It's small but mighty. Um, it were a. I mean I know I've been, uh, i've been working with a couple of people. I mean I know it's funny, but it's, it's honest. I like it though. Yeah, we're a very small company, It's only 25 of us, but I'll be honest with you. This is the most uh, hardworking uh and hard playing uh and most technically gifted team of individuals I've ever worked with, and I think our asset directly reflects that. Um, you know, we managed to sneak in uh to an area in the northern Delaware where, uh, surrounded by a lot of the, the big guys, uh ones that you would know if I mentioned them and uh and put together a massive block of acreage right under their noses and they did not realize what they had. And I think it was something that we were able to exploit and that can only be done with, you know, people who obviously can see uh the potential in something, um, uh have the hard work and the grit to get it done. And, yeah, i'm so incredibly lucky to be a part of this team, what's more important in your eyes do you feel when it comes to something like that?
Speaker 1:Is it the kind of the visionary uh view on things, or is it the the hard work grit, get it done uh mentality?
Speaker 2:Well, i really think it's everything right You need to have within any organization. You need to have people that can organize thoughts and can direct things, but you also need people who are capable of getting in the weeds and uh being, you know, diligent, like a certain amount of doggedness, right, it's like uh indefatigable zeal. Yeah, they have to be able to just continue on with it all all the time. And in a landscape like, uh, the northern Delaware, eddie County, new Mexico, I think it requires it more so than anywhere else, because it, in a lot of ways, we are trying to develop acreage in probably the most hostile state towards the north, the most hostile state towards our industry in the entire country. You know, okay, and it's like the irony is that the country benefits more from oil and gas than it does from any other industry And yet, for some reason, they do every single thing they can to make our lives incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And so you have to, you know, be committed to to dealing with that And they hold you up at every opportunity It takes. You know it was taking us. It's taken us as much as like 18 months to get permits towards the end, and this is like, really, we just like hound dog in it all the time. I think we got down to like nine months on some of our permits, but you're still looking at, like you know, probably on average like a year to 14 months delay between the time you file a permit and you're able to actually like drill a well, and you know, when you're trying to put together a big acreage position and you're trying to do all that, it's like and I mean this it is years of work, trying to file hundreds of permits and get them all organized and making sure that they can all be ready to go by the time a rig moves on location and just keep that going because it is yeah, it sounds.
Speaker 1:I mean it sounds. It sounds like it sounds not only challenging. You're obviously, you know, going uphill, you're fighting uphill, you're on an uphill battle, but it sounds very redundant too. So to have people do the same thing for, you know, 18 months. So hopefully this permit gets approved, because you still don't know if it's gonna be approved or not. It's just it's, it's that's teamwork, that's that's kind of you know, everyone, a village kind of moving in the same direction. That's that's challenging. That is challenging.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, i think that's exactly right. And so, kind of getting back to your original question, you said like what's more important to vision or, you know, the hard work? it's both, because without the vision you can't really see what this can become. And it's real easy when you're doing that same work over and, over and over again every day to lose sight of why you're doing it, because it becomes so monotonous. And so you know, it becomes almost like like you start to hate it, you know, and you're like I don't even know why I'm doing this.
Speaker 1:No. I mean I've talked to a bunch of people that you know other different. You know small companies, you know looking at deals, especially. You know, since you know 2020, whatever that is, or you know 2019, 2020. And you know it's don't get me wrong. It sounds extremely exciting. You know going in looking at acreage, looking at this, looking at that, going to the data rooms and all that stuff. But also it sounds extremely repetitive and extreme. I mean a lot of work with not a lot of results. I mean not a lot of results. You can see, because at the end of the day, you can walk away and do the same amount of work the 70 hours, 80 hours a week and walk away saying, ok, well, now we got to do 70 or 80 hours a week on something else and probably get the same result, which might be nothing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's true. I think we're dealing with a lot of that sort of thought process right now. You know, obviously we haven't talked about this yet but, like Novo, you know it was announced I guess what three weeks ago, something like that. I was at Ertec when it was announced. But you know the Novo has been purchased by, you know, a combination of Earthstone and Northern Ireland Gas. You know, now it's like we're obviously working incredibly hard to get this across the line and make sure that we're good stewards and we're passing this on to Earthstone in the best condition imaginable. But I'm also trying to juggle my thoughts on, like, what is next? and you know the trying to decide, like, is the 70 to 80 hour weeks trying to kick this off, you know, going to be worth it, right? It's like it's hard to imagine that you can hit a home run twice in a row.
Speaker 1:But it's also one of those things too. I mean, yes, you want to get this off the bat, but there's also that anxiety of like, okay, what's after this? You know what's chapter two for me? or three, or eight, nine, ten, whatever, what's this next chapter look like? So that's a lot of movement pieces going on internally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's exactly right. It's you have to believe in yourself, right, and you have to be willing to say that, like, in the end, all of this will pay off. And yeah, i'm going to have to slog through it and it's probably going to be tough on myself, my, my mental state, my family, but I do this for them anyway.
Speaker 1:But where's OK? Let me ask you a question though Where's the balance? I mean, look, at the end of the day, yeah, we all did this for our families on us up at the same time. I mean, sometimes we come home Monica's like, hey, i get you're doing this for us, but I want to see you too.
Speaker 2:So yeah, how are?
Speaker 1:you? How are you striking, bouncing this?
Speaker 2:Well, i try. I definitely try really, really hard to Not bring work home with me. You know, it's actually even very rare that I even bring my computer home. I kind of only bring my computer home with me when I anticipate that, like I know something really timely Is kind of on the horizon and needs to be dealt with. The rest of the time, i just try to bifurcate that life and say, no, i leave work at the office and I, you know, my home life stays at home. And You know it's difficult though, because even though you don't have your computer with you, that doesn't mean that your mind is not engaged and that is mean don't have your phone right next to you too. Yeah, yeah, and I definitely find myself dealing with that a lot where I'm thinking about work, even when I'm not at work. I'm monitoring my phone for teams messages or for emails, text messages from you know people, and I know that it It makes my wife feel I'm certain that she is, you know, second best, and that's not the case. But it's like you I Get. The only way I can describe it is like you become addicted to success, right, it's like you want to succeed so badly and that one taste of success makes you want to taste more of it, and you You know that that only comes with with with hard work. That only is achievable through sacrifice, and so you're willing to make those sacrifices. But you also understand that, like I don't want to sacrifice the things that are really important to me, i don't want to sacrifice my family time but I also am doing it so that I can make sure that your future is Set out you know But that, but that kind that.
Speaker 1:That point about success is extremely interesting to me because not only you know, once you hit that a Big success story, you hit that you know grains or home run or whatever it is. You're right, that feeling is it's, it's. It's not a secure feeling, it's, it's even if you know, let's say you know you sell X, multiple or whatever It's still not a secure. I don't. I don't have this experience, but I can only imagine, after you know, i have dealt with, you know, certain level of success. Success is when it comes to this. But You're never left with that sense of fulfillment or that sense of security because you are thinking about okay, what's the next chapter? look like I'm I really haven't changed personally, like I'm still. You know what, we're using the same toothbrush, i'm still driving the same car. So, yeah, i mean you can pull up an app and, yes, your life has changed a little bit, but the same time is, you still have to pour a certain sense of survival mode into that next Success story, the nice success chapter.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely correct. You know something? I always kind of like jot down Rules that I think are like good to sort of live by. I've kind of got this list in my office And one of them is essentially don't chase happiness, chase contentment. And I think the main reason for that is is like if you're constantly chasing happiness, if you always think that the next thing, the next Success, is going to make you happy, you're gonna be woefully disappointed. It just doesn't work that way. The reality is is you have to be happy in the moment. You have to be happy in the situation that you're in I don't know if you're familiar with, like Victor Frankel. Victor Frankel wrote a book called man search for meaning. He was a psychiatrist that Was a Jew that was imprisoned in the Auschwitz concentration camp during, you know, nazi Germany, and while he was there he essentially had to Tell himself that, like I'm doing this for my, i'm doing this to see my family again, right, i'm going to survive So that I can see my family again. But the reality is is that in order to get through that, you have to embrace the fact that, like, nothing about this is a good situation. Right, like I am My fate in a lot of ways is outside of my own hands. Yeah, absolutely. But everything that is within my own hands I will. I will go to whatever lengths to achieve that. And You know, the sad thing is is that at the end of the day, he was the only one that survived. His parents and his wife All were killed in the concentration camps, but he still credited that Desire to get through and see them again as the reason why he made it. And you know, admiral James Stockdale said the exact same thing when he was in the the P? O'work, a POW camps in Vietnam, and actually that phenomenon has been called the Stockdale paradox. It's about taking Basically having unwavering, unwavering faith that you will succeed, even while you are having basically a Brutal acceptance of the grim circumstances in which you find yourself in. And I, in a lot of ways, i find that that is what oil and gas is like in a way, in a much more toned-down way, i'm not at all anyway, okay. Okay, you heard it here first. Yeah, just hear me out. No, definitely not saying we are a Vietnamese POW camp or a Nazi Auschwitz, right, but in a lot of ways you know The oil and gas industry, it's like there's a lot of things, especially if you're gonna be in a small EMP company, there's a lot more pressure than I then there is at a big company. This is just undeniable. I can tell you because I've worked for both. There's that. But then on top of that there are all these things outside of your, you know, outside of your control, like just market fluctuations, geopolitical events, all the stuff. I mean I think about COVID and it's weird because COVID a lot of companies would probably say COVID was the worst thing that ever happened. I think about all the companies that got shut down, all the, all the small EMPs that got smashed into other people. You know those like smash-cos or like rolled up And novo. I would actually look back on COVID and say it was the best thing that ever happened to us And I think it was actually because of things like the stock deal paradox. You can look at the situation. You see that it is a grim reality in which oil is, you know either. Trading negative like it did you know At that one day was like negative forty seven dollars eight, twenty-eighth. Yeah, negative forty seven dollars a barrel, or Just even in the, the aftermath, the months afterwards, where it was hanging out around, like you know, between like thirty and forty dollars. And you can look at that situation and say, we're, we're done, like how on earth are we ever gonna make this happen. Or you can look at it like we did and we can say, all right, we're all gonna take pay cuts, we're gonna get through this. We need to be flexible, we need to pivot when necessary and we want to be when, once things show that they are, are, you know, livening up a bit, and we can. We can see the Light at the end of the tunnel. We were one of the first people to put rigs on the ground and it actually was one of the best things that ever happened to us, because We were able to drill a whole bunch of really, really high Return wells that would have been strong at, you know, ten million dollar AFE's, and we were drilling them at six because, you know, because we took advantage of the fact that there was a market downturn and a lot of companies were desperate to, you know, get their, their employees out there working, get their, their rigs running, all that, and so You know, i look at that and I say that that's like a perfect example, just taking advantage and not giving up, and and seeing what something can be, despite how horrible it looks.
Speaker 1:Well, how, okay, so switch to the, i guess, the passion role of the conversation. I mean, how, how, how does one stay passionate In not just this industry? so we're in the old gas industry and that's, you know, just plagued by, you know, negative public perception In reality, and not a Vocal Unappreciation, a vocal unappreciation towards, kind of the benefits of reliable, affordable energy and how it's fine. How do people in industries or situations that we, you know, you, find yourself in, like this, whether it's 78 hours a week, doing the same thing, not not the results everything around the world, the world dumpster fires all around you. How do you have that? What did you? what is it called the shoo shoo? was it The Vietnam POW guy of the stocktail paradox? Yeah, how do I guess? how do you find Your passion and how do you keep your passion churning and burning and turn it up in an environment like this? I?
Speaker 2:Don't know like how you do it. It's just, it's just what I do. I mean, i think getting to a place like Novo, it's like you only get here by being a high performer, and I think that Every single person here I would kind of describe is like we only have one speed and it's fifth gear. You know what I mean, mm-hmm. And that's the reason that you wound up here, because you know, i think Tim Fahler and John Zimmerman, our founders, did such an amazing job of basically putting in, you know, people in management positions that they felt like were, you know, top performers, but then also had a vision for what they wanted their departments to look like. And I think that is really one of the most important things is about finding the right personalities, the right attitude. That matters. Attitude matters more than almost anything else. I've always kind of felt like whenever I interview people for jobs, i actually typically don't even care about your resume at all. Anyone can make their resume look amazing. I care about you as a person. I want to know about your hobbies, i want to know whether or not I can spend 40 hours a week with you, because the truth is is I feel like either I or someone in this team can teach you how to do anything you don't know how to do, but I can't teach you not to be insufferable.
Speaker 1:And then that's a thing too. I mean a bad attitude is it's cancerous to an organization. I mean a good attitude is great, i mean it's great to have, but a negative attitude is that's something that, can you know start poking holes in the ship. I mean that's extremely important for people to look at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and when you think about, like, the phenomenon of the Stockdale paradox, it really comes down to attitude, right, it comes down to unwavering you know, faith or trust in yourself that you will succeed, and that can only be done through a very strong mindset. You know, you know this about me I am a diehard soccer fan. Oh yeah, football I love it. Yeah, football It's my favorite. You know, i went to the World Cup in 2014 in Brazil. It's like something I've been passionate about forever. It's my favorite sport. I'm a big Manchester United fan And anyone listening to this if they know anything about Manchester United have a long history of success, but the last 10 years they've been absolutely garbage And it's been like painful to watch Just gross mismanagement, everything. But last summer they hired this Dutch coach his name is Eric Tenhag and he brought in a couple of key players And between everything that's happened in the last 10 years and what happened last season, it was just unrecognizable. The team was completely different. This was definitely a team that people feared playing. You know, manchester United actually wanted to play more games than any other team in all of Europe last year because they went so far in every single competition. And when the press journalist asked Eric Tenhag what changed between last year and this year and he just said attitude, mindset He said I brought in a few people that were winners and you'll notice that you look at the same people. Or if you look at history, you'll notice that it's the same players that win trophies over and, over and over again, it doesn't matter where they go, and it's because they bring that mindset with them. They will not fail. They won't accept failure.
Speaker 1:I mean I think you reflect back on that. Anybody listening, i mean, we all have experienced in previous roles where there is previous roles, companies, environments where that attitude is negative, it's very disgruntled, it's very this and very that, and whenever that starts happening, first off it starts creating a masses. For that People start kind of people love negative stuff, they love gossip, they get attracted to that, and so when that happens, i mean that is it kind of becomes a little snowball, i mean. So I can definitely relate to that, to a couple of previous roles that I've had And you're right, it does affect you, it does affect the entire team, the entire organization. However, when you do switch that to the other side, when you do have the motivators, the mindset, the positive mindset, the viewpoints and kind of the holistic, i guess, outlooks on things, that's inspiring, so you do want to kind of give more. So I think that's a great point. I mean it's definitely a lot attitude, mindset.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so just to kind of sum up, you mentioned, like how do you stay passionate? I think it's easy to stay passionate when you're surrounded by other people that are passionate. It's infectious.
Speaker 1:So let me do okay.
Speaker 2:Well, no, it's just going to say as long as no one succumbs to the negativity or no one buys in on this idea that somehow it's just all tragic and we're going to fail, then you're always going to come out. okay, We've all got each other's backs and we fight for each other. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But just having that reassurance that you're on the right path with the right people, with the right mental state. So in your situation right now, obviously you have a lot going on. You have a lot on your plate right now. What is something, i guess, that you've been spending your time focused, that you've been kind of whether it's leading others or whether it's kind of motivating yourself. What are some things that you're kind of finding yourself to kind of diving into a little bit more, or spending a little bit more of your time, or something that you just kind of want to communicate that from your own personal experience of being in a situation where your company does sell, what's next? what's this? you're trying to make sure everything kind of gets dotted, dotted and signed off correctly. But then you're also thinking so, what's going on right now in your mind and where are you finding, i guess, your passion, i guess, or your motivation to kind of keep moving forward?
Speaker 2:Well, it's kind of an interesting question because I've probably been more stressed out lately than I think I've ever been in my entire life.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about this.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, i mean, i think it's a good problem to have, but it's also, you know, you have to deal with it. You have to find healthy outlets to not just get down about it. but you work so hard on something. The thing is you build something like Novo, built with the intention to sell. You want to sell. that's the benchmark of success. You're where you're exactly you want it to be when you start a business, yeah, But then you finally sell and then you're overwhelmed with thoughts of, okay, so what next? Yeah, you know how do I deal with uncertainty going forward. How do I find a way to look out for people that have put their trust in us that are not going to be as financially you know, you know well taken care of as maybe some of us are?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, naturally.
Speaker 2:And it's. I think it's a heavy burden to bear, but I've been trying to take it very seriously and I've been trying to think really hard about making sure that we can find something for everyone.
Speaker 1:So in a situation like your own, you know, honestly, that's fine. I mean, i think this is an extremely important part of an extremely important conversation to have, because there are a lot of people, not just in leadership positions, like yourself, but whatever position they are in their life, they are met with you know, whether it's a huge success in achieving their goals, and that kind of that void feeling of you know of what you expect to be, this lift off, elevated feeling that you have this kind of this weighted reality fog. I guess, if I was to describe it, you know personally, that's right. I think this is a great conversation to have, whether it's, you know, obviously this is not a passion-fueled conversation, but this is a real world conversation, i think, and probably help other people that are that do have that feeling of lack of whatever it is, or maybe keeping a team behind you when you're kind of going through these tumultuous times, that you don't know what the other side looks like. Where do you find, i mean, obviously I'm sure there's a lot of people you know, not just on your team but other teams that have kind of dealt through this and we've talked, we know some of the same people, but do you find, i guess, bringing the troops together and rah, rah, rah, rallying people up, or is it one of those times where you have a conversation where people say, look, you know you're going through this, i'm going through this too, and kind of having that transparency conversation like, hey, look, we are all in the same boat. I mean, let's cut the shit Like we are going through the same stuff and let's talk about that. What does that look like for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, to be honest with you, what you just said is accurate, and what I mean by that is I have had those conversations with people You know I noticed, from the moment Novo announced the sale, i like immediately stopped sleeping. As much like I noticed I was waking up a lot in the middle of the night and I was I would lose. I was always like hoping that I would wake up at 1am instead of 3, because if I woke up at 1, I might be awake for an hour. But at least I knew I would go back to bed. But if I woke up at 3, i was usually just like I'm up, i just woke up out of bed. I'm going to go have coffee and go upstairs and start playing Destiny. But yeah, you know silver lining.
Speaker 1:Silver lining to that stress That keeps me from like, yes, yes, way to be positive.
Speaker 2:But yeah, i noticed that other people were dealing with similar things, or at least I was seeing it on their faces or just in the way they would all of a sudden react to certain things, and so I took it upon myself to start talking to them then. But I've been trying really hard to talk to them more now that things are shaken out And I just I try my hardest to just reassure them that like, look, you know you need not worry, like you will, we will find you something or we'll help you find something, but you also will have money coming in. I think it's in your best interest to go ahead and try and, you know, polish off your resume and get that out there. But I just want you to know that like behind the scenes, people are working hard to try and find a solution to this.
Speaker 1:So it's transparency. Yeah, what about you personally? I mean I've waken up early. I mean, obviously your mind's racing. You get home, your body may be at home, but your mind may be elsewhere. How are you, i guess, coping or dealing or processing or finding, i guess, healthy outlets and all that? I mean, how are you processing this weird, strange exciting times?
Speaker 2:Well, I just all of a sudden recently I just kind of came to terms with it and decided that there's no point sitting here and like thinking about it and stressing out. So I've actually been trying really hard to spend as much time with my family and my daughters as possible. Like it's been really nice. I feel like I get home and you know we just try to go outside and do something, go for a walk or whatever, and that's how I've been not thinking about it.
Speaker 1:Now let me see a question When you are with your children and all that stuff and you are with your little girls and all that stuff, are you able to kind of like cut off you know the corporate side of you and you can just kind of dive in? Yeah, Really. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right now I don't know why it is, but yes, at the moment that's exactly what's going on. I feel like, for some reason there's like it's like the show Severance, you know, somehow the announcement of the sale created some type of surgical procedure in my brain where my work and home life have been completely bifurcated. And now it's like when I come home, i'm just trying not to bring work with me more so than ever.
Speaker 1:Has there been a point since you know, obviously three weeks ago or something like that, until now, where I guess the curious stress anxiety ball is it continued inflate or is it deflating a little bit to allow space for, i guess, the excitement of things? I mean what's going on?
Speaker 2:I think it's deflating. Okay, yeah, i do. And actually I mean you made the statement you said maybe this isn't a passion-fueled conversation, but the truth is it kind of is Like here's the here's. The good side of things is that I've been more stressed than ever, but at the same time, you know, i'm trying to come to terms with it. I'm trying to. If anything, it's the sucktail paradox all over again. I'm looking at my situation and I'm saying, all right, i have no clue what is going to happen in the future. I don't know if I'm even going to get a job. You know, one thing that sucks for somebody like me is you know, let's be honest, i have a vice president in front of my you know title, yeah, and you give someone a resume with that on there And all of a sudden they think that you don't know what being a geologist is. That like, somehow you're only you know out there managing people or whatever, and the truth is is at a small company vice president is a geologist. Like, i spend 90% of my day making maps, not 90% of my day in meetings. You know, i make maps, i come up with ideas, i develop prospects, but I fear that I'll never be able to sell that to people. And so in the event that like a Novo 2 or something like that doesn't spin up, you know, then I worry that like I'm not marketable. But it is that grim reality that also, i think, makes me think to myself well then, i'm not going to rely on anyone else. And so, you know, i do still spend a lot of my time trying to think of ideas. I jot them down, i keep them And I think that, you know, in the not too distant future, once Novo is completely wrapped up, i think I will be ready to go pretty hard and try to get something going. So I spent a lot of time thinking about it.
Speaker 1:You said. I find I mean I get in the same boat. I mean I stay up here And then it's the next thing you start, it starts kind of snowballing, it starts kind of, you know, you get on the spin wheels, it starts going and going, and that I feel like whenever I start thinking like that, it just the thought, the process of thinking, just creates more stuff. And then actually I come out, i come downstairs, you know I'll be upstairs, my wife and I'll be just like my mind's going, my mind's going. I'm disconnected. I'm obviously not, you know, there, you know, enjoying time with my family. I'll come downstairs, i'll just if, just like you, i find it healthy to just jot stuff down. Yeah, you know, if once it's, once it's put down, whether it's on a piece of paper or a dry erase board, it's not holding space in your mind anymore, that because you can reference it, you know, at a later point. So I think a good, a good takeaway from this, i think, would be the simple process of just kind of putting your thoughts to paper, putting your thoughts to a dry erase board. It kind of helps you kind of take a step back, get that 30,000 foot view and kind of put things perspective.
Speaker 2:I have a little like leather. I mean you could call it a journal. I don't really use it for diary. Yeah, that's a diary. It's a diary with a lock on it, you've a heart lock? Of course it is, but I have it right next to my bed And it's because when I wake up in the middle of the night, if I am all of a sudden having a, i would call them blizzards. You know it's a blizzard of ideas. It's one of those ones where it's like thoughts are moving so fast past your eyes you kind of you can't even focus on one from another. By the time you tried to focus on that one snowflake, 20 more have passed you by, and so you get. You get a little bit discombobulated, but if you pull out that little notebook and you just jot things down as they sort of occur to you, you at least cement them in time. And and it's, you know, i maybe I'm not getting every little bit of it, but I do feel like I am building up a pretty strong catalog of like ideas or things to remember to you know, talk about, or people to remember to call and talk to, about potential things, and so I feel like, you know, just, rather than waiting for somebody to put me out of my misery, i'm hoping that I can take it upon myself and I always find, whenever I wake up at night, you know three in the morning, two, three in the morning my mind does start going like that.
Speaker 1:It's always. It's always. You know two things It's always doom and gloom. You know like doom and gloom, like it's about to hit the fan, everything's about to fail, you're gonna be a failure, or it's like the most creative stuff that I've ever thought of. You know like, oh my gosh, this is great And you're right. I have found. Honestly, i was listening to this podcast and this guy was talking about this and I actually started doing this. You know, i'll wake up now and my mind will start racing and not, rather than put stuff down, i'll just tell myself. You know out loud like, hey, good stuff, not right now. Think about this. You know when you wake up, but not right now, and for some reason it works, it's helped me.
Speaker 2:I need to do that Because for some reason it is. There's like a, i just submit to it. I just like the moment I wake up, i'm like All right, well, i guess I'm up for an hour, and then I just kind of let my mind race a little bit And eventually I always sort of start to feel myself lull back into it. And then I'm, i started to do what I always do, which is think about space, in the infinite cosmos and traveling through it, and then I pass out. That's how it always works.
Speaker 1:I love that. Have you seen a six? This is a tangent between 65 million years ago.
Speaker 2:No, not yet. I want to see that, though, yeah.
Speaker 1:Monica and I watched it last night. Let me know what you think.
Speaker 2:It's pretty pretty, yeah okay, I will say that your facial expression matches what my expectations are.
Speaker 1:So at least, yeah that works So okay, so journaling stuff down, being transparent with people, so how else? I guess, what tips or tricks, I guess, or outlooks do you have when it comes to people that are kind of in your shoes, not in your shoes of you know, you know this exciting Novo cell and all that stuff, but in the shoes of transition, in the shoes of success, when you're not sure what the next thing looks like. I mean, what I guess? I guess what's some of your insights that you've done personally that might be that you share, that could or maybe could not help people out there, i guess, in the same stage that you're in.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, I think, amazingly enough, I've talked to a lot of people that have been in the situation and it sounds like everyone goes through it. So you know it's support group, yeah, support groups to a certain extent. You know, we kind of. I talked to you earlier about, like you know how success sort of. You know it's like Every success you makes you kind of want to chase another success, right, and and I think that's a good thing, you know, obviously. But the problem is is that you do run into that issue, like I mentioned with Nova, where it's like, okay, well, all right, success catalyzes more success. Yet How the hell am I ever gonna succeed in the way or at the scale or magnitude that we did with this and it becomes a bit overwhelming. But you know, once again, you have to sort of recalibrate your thoughts. You have to think to yourself like, don't go with, don't go into it with these grandiose expectations, don't go into it, thinking like, oh yeah, i'm gonna get another 5x.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i'm just gonna happen in the next 18 months. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just go into it because you love it, go into it because you're passionate about it. You know, i can absolutely tell you that, like I, just I want to keep working. I want to keep doing something. I want to keep my mind fresh. I want to, i Want to challenge myself, right, and that's what I want to keep doing. And If I fail, fine I fail, but it's because I tried. But I'm not gonna go into it thinking that It's ever gonna be, like Nova was, because if I went into it that way, then I almost certainly would fail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you send yourself up for a failure right off the bat.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. You need to just go into it because you, you want to be passionate about it. You know, one good thing is just think about it from this way. You want to be your own boss again, don't you? you don't want to. I Can tell you, i've worked for big companies and I loved it. You know, i was at Sandridge for three and a half years. I love my time at Sandridge. I left because I felt like the time was right. I went to Ascent Resources. I loved it there. I thought Ascent was one of the I love those cats over there.
Speaker 1:Good people over great people Yeah really great people.
Speaker 2:I felt like the team that they built is a bunch of people with a similar mindset to nobo. It's just a much bigger environment. And I left really because I just I had personal ambitions that I wanted to fulfill. Not because there was anything wrong there, like it was just such a great place, but like having gone from an Ascent to a Novo, i Realized, like man, if there's anything I fear more than anything else, it's going to Going back to a more corporate world.
Speaker 1:We're the cognitive wheel not doing this strategy, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, i found I actually just kind of put something out there about this. I Was in my car, that it a start, you know, it started kind of getting, you know, brain started going. I started thinking about all the things challenges I had to do with, you know, with crew, club, exact crew, this business, kids, crew, da da da, all this stuff I had all these. I'm like okay, well, i wish I was here. I wish I was here. And the destination design, and I actually had a conversation, brett Shell, about this, with Cold War Tech and it's, it's. It's one of those things that, like, you always want that next success, you always want that next, this, next, that then I'll be happy and then I'll be satisfied Once I get this title I'll be good. But a lot of times I mean I had to stop myself and realize, looked like dude, chill out, man, like what you're doing now is is part of your story, is part of the process and JP, and if you were where you wanted to be at in your mind right now, you're gonna want something else if you were there. So, enjoy the journey, enjoy the process, enjoy the struggles and enjoy the, the, the mindset challenges that you need to overcome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, i mean this goes back to what I said earlier. Don't chase happiness, chase contentment. Just be happy where you are. I know this sounds really bizarre, but like there's a lot of research, several studies have been done that have actually shown that the harder you work to try and be happy, the more miserable you are. There is something incredibly unattainable about happiness When, when you are actively seeking it, but when you're not, you can be incredibly happy you know it's interesting.
Speaker 1:I think this is a good kind of tanch to get on. I mean that kind of goes down to me. A lot of people, like you know, defining success, defining happiness, i mean it's, it's. It's very different for everyone. I mean there could be. Is it a number in your bank account? Is it a title? Is it your lifestyle? I mean what? what is success to you And when did you define it?
Speaker 2:I mean, i think success for me is just really easy. It's like Am I making my, my parents proud? Am I making my wife proud? Am I making myself proud? as long as I'm doing that, then I'm successful. It's one thing that actually, in a lot of ways, has always been The fuel for me was just like, even when I was in, you know, great school, great school, middle school, high school, everything, college I always made you know mostly a's, like a's and b's, you know, honoural, and it was always because I hated the thought of, like, bringing home a report card and my parents not seeing that. I don't know what it was, but I, i didn't like the idea of My parents thinking you can do so much better, right? I didn't want to ever hear them say that, and it's not that they never did Say that they did. I mean, there were times when I genuinely probably did let them down. I let myself down, but, like all things, you have to fail in order to know what it feels like to succeed. And it is my failures that have made me, you know, want to succeed even more because, like I said, i just don't want to ever see disappointment on, you know, my wife's face my parents face, you know my well okay.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a question then. If let's, let's pretend your wife was in the room, your parents were in the room and all This stuff, is there a way for you to feel success personally, like without any external Uh uh at a boys?
Speaker 2:Isn't it tough?
Speaker 1:it is tough you know, I uh.
Speaker 2:You know, i think, um, this is actually at the beginning of, i think, a really good conversation because, like, i think, knowing what people need is really important. You know, especially as a leader, like knowing what other people need and need to hear. You know they're. It's easy to manage People all right. It's not easy to manage personalities. Yeah, okay, you know. And what I mean by that is, like, you know people do tasks. You know it's like, hey, you know I need this job done. Can you get it done to me by Wednesday? That's easy. You know I've got this long list of Things. Hey, i need geo progs done for all these wells. I need you to go ahead and put together the development plan. Get that to me, you know, by the end of the week. That's easy. Yeah, what's hard? Yeah, what's hard is keeping their motivation up and keeping people excited about work and letting them know, like what, what role they play. And Some people need Atta boys a lot. Yeah, some people don't need it at all. Some people need you to come in and, uh, look at their work and Brainstorm with them. Some people want you to leave in the hell alone.
Speaker 1:And some people, some people like negative reinforcement. I mean, I know when I'm playing like people like come on, jp. I'm like, hey, give me positive enforcement, i'll do a lot better for some reason, absolutely.
Speaker 2:There are some people out there that view themselves, i think, in this very bizarre way as like a JK Simmons esque, like brutal coach from whiplash. You ever seen that? Yeah, dude, whiplash, amazing movie. But yeah, it's like JK Simmons gets the best out of you know, the the drummer by just treating him Um terribly large. Yeah, and I'm like I don't know. I've never seen that work. And if it does work, it works despite you.
Speaker 1:I don't know if I could be a good leader by doing that. I think that doesn't drive well with who I am as a person.
Speaker 2:No, not at all. Um, and you know, trust me, i understand that if somebody steps out of line or somebody does something wrong, you need to be able to go and talk to them and say like, hey, this is, this is unacceptable, or I expect better from you, or you just completely miss the mark here. But I think it's also important to keep in mind, like, you know, what do these people normally do, right, you know, tell them, tell them what their strengths are. I always kind of viewed my role as a boss is to maximize people's strengths and Minimize their weaknesses, right? So like, give them as many opportunities as possible to show off the ways in which they are strong and And give them as few a chances as possible to showcase where they're weak. And you know, it's always fared really well for me. But I think at the beginning, that always means that you have to take an honest stock. You have to start with yourself. You have to take an honest stock of your own strengths and weaknesses, because in order to know what you need for a group, you have to know what you're not good at, right? Yeah, so, like, for me, it's real easy. I can look through my list and go okay, you know, i think I'm a good, i Think I'm a pretty good oil finder. You know, i think I have a good track record of finding oil, having successful exploration ideas, things like that. I think my, my record is very strong there. But there's a lot of technical stuff that I'm not good at, like I'm. You know, i'm gonna be 41 here in like a month, okay, and I feel like at my age There's a lot of people that are pretty good with computers. Like you know, i'm pretty good with computers, but I am not great with computers. But people that are like three years younger than me all of them like 38 year olds and younger It's like it's they're not really people. There are automatons like it. Just, you know, they're cyborgs, like they know everything about computers, can do it all. And That was one thing immediately that I absolutely wanted to address it. It's like I I would interview people and when they would start talking to me about the ways that they approach like doing data analytics, or approach doing geology by like Bringing data analytics into it, i was immediately like, alright, you're talking my language because You are going to be so much better at that than I am. Yeah, and I just want to make sure that I am and not leaving Like a vacancy in our talent pool. You know, i want all those talents to be accounted for. And then, once you get that person and you have a little bit of time to look at them and say like, okay, well, you know this person is really tech savvy or you know this person's really great at this, but maybe this person sometimes misses big picture thinking or something like that. So then you start thinking about you know, other things you want. So you have to be able to, like, assess your own strengths and weaknesses And then you have to be able to assess others. But then, once you get all those, you have to be able to manage personalities. You have to transition from managing people and managing their skill set to managing their personality And you really have to figure out how to get the best out of people. And I think there's a lot of ways in which I've done really, really well, and then there's ways in which I've messed up. You know it's like I I've definitely had, you know, not shouting matches, but I've I've had my Intense conversations about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, strongly worded conversations, crucial conversations Yes.
Speaker 2:Crucial convos with, with people that have you know, worked with me or been under me, because I felt like There was a major disconnect In what my expectations were versus what they were doing. But at the same time, you know, through some of those conversations, i realized that maybe I was not doing something that they needed. But that's your life, it is, but that's my personality, but it also becomes my duty as a leader to know that, okay, now I know that you need this from me, or that you felt this way because maybe I wasn't doing a certain thing And I try really hard to get that right. Maybe I wasn't doing a certain thing and I try really hard to implement that going forward. And so, yeah, i think if you want to get the most out of your people, you always have to, you have to manage personalities. It's really important.
Speaker 1:I think I think you kind of touched on on a good point. And this is not just you know work. I mean, this is any relationship with that. You're with your wife, your girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever it is. It's a lot of times you know you're with someone. You tell you or the new hire or whatever it is It's like, oh, i love how you do this, love how you do this. And that slowly turns into Hey, you did this wrong. Hey, you didn't do this right. You start kind of nitpicking their performance or their work or something like that, and you and you Forget, or you don't forget. I guess you don't practice to guess I guess compliment their successes or their achievements, yeah, your appreciation of how they are part of your team or your family, where that is, and that's such an easy thing to do. And I think you should overlook those things. It's so easy to overlook those things and I think it's so important as leaders to not just leaders, it's human beings to just to identify the. You know the good and comments on the good as much as, probably more, than you comment on the, the areas of improvement that yeah absolutely Yeah. So that's, i think that's.
Speaker 2:I think that's a good little tidbit, that That little nugget of knowledge and, if you will, Well, what's kind of interesting about it is my wife and I have had these kind of conversations before where, like In the same way that when I'm trying to put together a team, i'm doing the same thing. It's like I kind of feel like in my marriage the reason my wife and I work so well is because she fills in all of my Like lack. You know, yeah, everywhere where there's a negative space in my character, she fills that in perfectly. You know it's it's like she's between the two of us We make one really fantastic human being. Maybe independently we're like we're flawed, but what's interesting about it is I Acknowledge that both openly and just within the privacy in my own mind. I acknowledge that reality that, like, the reason my wife and I are so successful as a couple is because of the fact that we're So different and because we have independent strengths. And yet, for some reason, i never afford her the leniency that I afford other people Things. I'm like I come down harder on her about certain things and I and I don't know why and that's something that we've had to talk a lot about, about, like You know, i should be giving you more grace than anything else, because I understand you and I also know that the things you're really great at Are the things I'm terrible. Yeah, like I should be complimenting you much more so than I criticize, right, well.
Speaker 1:If you want, just just just well, i'll make this a sound bit and we just play that for her, the sound bit piece for her On reading they gotta just yeah, that's free of charge, That's that's, that's, that's a perk of being a guest on ng crew podcast. No, but I think that's. I think that's a good thing. It's like you're right. I mean I did the same thing. You know, monica, you know my wife says the same thing to me sometimes, like you know You're so, you're this way around, you know people will be. It's like I'm like, oh, that's good, i don't even realize it. So I think a lot of it not just being a leader or just being what it's self-reflection, you know, i mean we all have flaws, we all have strengths and I think a lot of it is you're right, it's just communication. It's communication. It's kind of yeah, what, what drives you? Michael is not gonna drive Adam or Christina, it's it's all very different and you're right, you didn't even know the personality behind that.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, i think you and I've had this conversation before, it's like because I think you and I are very Sympatical on this. Like you, you are very introspective, like I am, and I think you tend to Probably overanalyze things in your head and you probably come down harder on yourself, and it is. It is in a lot of ways It's. It's a terrible, you know, affliction to suffer from where you, like, you, spend too much time in your brain and you criticize yourself too heavily For things. But at the same time, i've always felt like that was actually one of my strengths in a really bizarre way, because I think that that introspection It's why I succeed. Yeah, because I spend so much time thinking about all the Negative aspects of things that I actually am so driven to correct them. I just wish that I could correct them without Punishing myself the next time something happens. You know, it's like I wish I could learn to.
Speaker 1:I wish I could learn to give myself a little bit more grace than Yeah, but I think I think that just comes through practice, michael, i think I think it's one of those things where it's like you know, just like you know, whenever I get at the end of every quarter, i always get in this certain mindset, always getting the certain mindset that it's not gonna happen, it's gonna fail, it's not gonna continue and all that stuff, and I still have the same Feelings. It's not as heavy as it was before, but again it's a self-reflection, it's giving yourself grace and it's, you know, whenever you're faced with the same type of emotions or the same type of feelings, you're kind of, in this event in your life or this, this, this situation in your life, it doesn't hit as hard. You know it's still there, the feelings and emotions are still there, but it's not as hard. It's not as it's not such an anchor as it was, was before. But again, that's just being people's, it's being humans, that's constantly trying to learn about ourselves, and you know kind of, you know how to improve, so you can't beat yourself up Too much with that, mike.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, i try not to, but it just still happens. But, like I said, for some reason I Think lately I've been doing pretty well, just not like thinking about much. But it is a bizarre thing, i don't know. Sometimes I think that like the sail just like literally wiped out my brain.
Speaker 1:It's just kind of well what it's like. It's like whenever you go through and, honestly, there's gonna wrap it up or come up an hour right now. It's one of those things like whether it's like a Wedding, a big life event or or a cell of a company or start this, you expect to have this like. Once you get to that moment, you expect to have this feeling of, like, success and happiness and all that stuff. You know on a, you know on a parrot, you know a bull, hot air balloon, pretty much, but the realities aren't there. That's not really what happens and it's it's a very difficult thing to navigate. Yes, it is so. Hey, i want to thank you for your time. Obviously, i guess I'll be seeing you August. I'll be up there in August. I'll be up there in August for a crew club and also talking at the pipe with the Midcon Pipeline is a thing on August 10th. But Obviously, it's always great talking to you, always enjoy our conversation. I want to thank you for doing this again, for sitting and talking to me for another hour on energy crew podcast. It's always a pleasure chatting with you and I appreciate your insight. Man, i really do.
Speaker 2:Well, i I think what you do is an amazing thing, man, and I think this, i like this new format a lot you dig in it, i think.
Speaker 1:I mean, look, i think it's cool, i mean it's, it's, i think it's more It's, it's more targeted, more fruitful, yeah well, i think it gives people a chance to talk about I Don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's not like your other podcast. People didn't talk about themselves or talk about the things in their lives, but Maybe this is a little bit more focused and so they get to kind of, you know, maybe go down some rabbit holes that like they didn't otherwise, and that's where you can learn.
Speaker 1:That's where you can support, that's where you can grow and that is the whole point of exec crew. That is, you see, a logo. That's the that ties it in all together. So, yeah, so this was hold the whole cop though the whole, obviously, this whole thought of you know, the passion fueled mentorship and honestly, you're an inspiration for this. Like I've been at tables with you or Conversations with you. You know you and other, you know people on, and once y'all start talking about what inspires you, your inspirations, your Passions and all that stuff, it changes the dynamic of the conversation. It changes the understanding of what you're talking about and I Was like, okay, well, let's start. That's why exec crew start, but also let's let's bring this to the energy crew podcast, because I love these passion fueled conversations. I just dig it. I think you can learn so much about other people, but also You can learn a lot about yourself at the same time. So I want to thank you for your time, brother, and If you obviously you need anything, give me a shout. You know I'm here, but thank you everyone out there for tuning energy crew podcast. And Again, this is Michael Hale, the VP of exploration over at Nova oil and gas One, and we'll see what happens after that. So thank you all for tuning and we'll talk to you soon. Thank you, i Hold on a second. Thank you everyone, and we'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2:Oh You.