Energy Crue
Welcome to 'Energy Crüe', the podcast that dives deep into the heart of industry innovation, entrepreneurship, and personal growth. I'm your host, JP Warren, and each episode, we embark on a journey to uncover the passions and motivations that fuel industry leaders. We're not just talking business here; we're exploring the personal drives, the triumphs, and the challenges that shape today's pioneers. Alongside these inspiring conversations, I'll be sharing my own story - the battles with imposter syndrome, the pivotal mindset shifts, and the lessons learned throughout my entrepreneurial voyage. As a certified coach, my goal is to empower you, our listeners, to break free from the barriers holding you back. Join me as we navigate both the professional and personal landscapes, learning and growing together with 'Energy Crüe'
Energy Crue
Value Creation Keeps You Employed With Jim Holmes (CEO - LFS Chemistry)
JP Warren and Jim Holmes explore how effective communication and value creation determine career success in the energy industry, from navigating job interviews to surviving industry uncertainty.
• Breaking the engineering stereotype by being outgoing and engaging rather than introverted
• Differentiating yourself through genuine enthusiasm and clear communication of your value proposition
• The "Gen Z stare" phenomenon and how poor body language hinders effective communication
• Why interpersonal skills create opportunities in an increasingly digital workplace
• Strategies for students at career fairs: take notes, ask questions, and follow up effectively
• How creating and demonstrating value provides job security during industry uncertainty
• The importance of building relationships before crises occur rather than reaching out only when problems arise
• Service companies as early indicators of industry changes and the value of their expertise
• Treating internships as extended job interviews and making memorable impressions
We're recording this podcast from Colorado School of Mines where we've been working with petroleum engineering students on career development. Remember that this industry is a long-play business - build relationships consistently rather than only reaching out when you need something.
Welcome.
Speaker 2:Welcome to a new Energy Crew podcast. I'm your host, jp Warren, and this we're recording this not live, but we're recording this at Colorado School of Mines in Golden, colorado, where my buddy, jim Holmes, the president and CEO of LFS Chemistry, is joining me today. And, jim, why don't you kind of give a recap on, kind of like, what's your experience today? Why are we here today?
Speaker 1:Man, it was a fantastic experience getting to A listen to you present, engage and really lead a group of young, up-and-coming engineers into their future attempts at internships and employment and writing resumes, to being engaging and creating a memorable moment with recruiters and potential bosses alike. And then networking and how important that is. So it was a fantastic hour we got to spend.
Speaker 2:So let's talk about that.
Speaker 2:I mean, you had some great insight in all this stuff and I want to break this up pretty much to maybe kind of what we talked about and how maybe what can apply to maybe people that are out there listening that might be kind of on the fence about joining the industry, maybe other students that maybe kind of maybe attended this. But when it comes to kind of your perspective whether it's career fairs or job, you know, job interviews and all that stuff you had a couple of key points that I think help differentiate people Because, at the end of the day, your resume is your resume. You know what I mean. You take classes, you get the grades and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Your resume is your resume. You know what I mean. You take classes, you get the grades and all that stuff. Your resume is your resume, but that really doesn't speak to who you are as an employee, as an individual and all that stuff. So what kind of do you like seeing whenever you're talking to a potential candidate let's say it's a new hire or someone that's just coming fresh out of school and all that stuff what do you look for?
Speaker 2:So I think a lot of certain image that many engineers carry with them and it's breaking the mold of that traditional engineering. And what is that?
Speaker 1:It's introverted not wanting to be outwardly engaging or go to industry events or you know things that may not even be in industry, but just a way to network and meet people and further your career. Continuing education it can be a lot of different things. You know, what I saw in this room actually was pretty good. Handful of the students were actually quite outgoing and engaging and it was. It was refreshing, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think a lot of the focus today was whether you're at a career fair or whether you're, you know, one of a thousand people interviewing for a job or one of two people interviewing for a job is how do you differentiate yourself and create value for whoever it is that's making the decision to hire you Right? How can you be the outstanding person, the one that you want? And again, in my field of work, it's always a little bit different depending on the type of position that we're looking for. Um, you know I think you made some good points in there that even once you have the job, you can't stop seeing the value. You can't stop creating value for the organization and then not just creating the value but getting recognized for that value. You know being vocal, not engaging in all the off-site, you know, onto the side water cooler type chat. That tends to get people in trouble and, you know, ask the questions, be out there.
Speaker 1:Be, intentionful with your questions and your conversations and be smart with them.
Speaker 2:Make your questions memorable for whoever it is. And the thing is, whenever I'm talking to students or I'm talking to sales professionals and all that stuff, whenever I'm coaching and training all that stuff, at the end of the day, this interview is not going to make or break you, it's not going to determine your life. This sale across from the potential customer is not going to determine your future, your happiness. So I know there's anxiety behind it. I understand that. There's nerves. Your heartbeat starts pounding, your breath starts going. But if you can just slow yourself down and realize this can be a stressful situation regardless, I'm going to have some fun with this. Approach it that way. I always tell the students, all the students and sales teams and all that stuff show up excited. That's one way to differentiate yourself is have a good attitude.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. You can get past a lot of shortcomings or imposter syndrome by being energetic, by being that advocate. I want this. Why do I want it? Explain why you want it and why you're the fit for that particular role. If you're extremely excited about it and I'm not talking corny or over the top, but genuine interest in whatever it is you're about to attempt to take on then more than likely you're going to stand out in a in a broad field of candidates.
Speaker 2:Do you feel it's more difficult in this day and age or when you were getting the oil field on, I guess access to the oil field getting in Do you feel it's more challenging, more difficult?
Speaker 1:No, um, I would. I actually would quite honestly go the opposite way.
Speaker 1:Go on, let's open this up With all of the social media and potential networking out there and you have HR and recruiters that are checking, you know, social media, facebook, instagram, whatever it might be. Find out what type of person it is that they might be hiring, you know. So it's you know, but you have all this access You've got. You know the internet's a lot more encompassing than it was when I was trying to get into the oil field. You know, when I was entering the oil field, a lot of it was still a handshake. It was, ah man, I know that person. Maybe they can introduce me to somebody that you had to vouch.
Speaker 1:You actually already had you, kind we had to go find another one. This generation can go into 50 interviews, potentially in a week, if they really wanted to get after it.
Speaker 2:It seems like the number of students taking, you know, focus on petroleum engineering has obviously decreased over the last five years. Right, it's dropped 85% and all that stuff. Petroleum engineering has obviously decreased over the last five years. Right, it's dropped 85% and all that stuff. But what makes this challenge, and we kind of part of this, is the uncertainty of our industry, the uncertainty of acquisitions, layoffs, headcount reductions and all that stuff. So, as a student right now, I can't agree with you more. I was talking to one student. At the end he's like hey, listen, I already have an internship. Should I still go to the career fair? And my answer was absolutely. I mean, what you're going there doing? You're not going there to interview. Change your frame. You're going there to learn about the industry, like, keep building your networks. At the end of the day, like, you don't know if your internship's going to be pulled, you know.
Speaker 1:At the end of the day, the presentation we get the announcement that Conoco's potentially 25% 25% of their North American workforce, if I remember right.
Speaker 1:And you know, for anybody that was looking for an internship at Conoco it's. It could be a little bit alarming. So having options number one is a good thing. And you know, if you go to 10 of these things and you get two or three offers for an internship or a job position, you get to pick the culture that you want to go work in. Where's the most stability, where's the most? You know balance for you. What?
Speaker 2:fits the best, and it's also one of those things too. It's like every person, when they start their career, they're like I want to be here in two years doing this and all that stuff. At the end of the day, it's get your foot in the door, get some experience, and then you kind of carve your own path. Yeah, that career path.
Speaker 1:you may have the best of intentions when you lay that out in your own mind and you know oh, this company moves you around every two years or every year. Those companies will determine your career path and then you get to choose if you want to go along with it and you can kind of pick and choose what you want to do.
Speaker 2:My biggest thing, what I guess kicked off today, was the Gen Z stare. That's a real thing. Yeah, the stare that you know, that I get, you know from my daughter, I'm sure you get from your kids as well. And, uh, and that is a real thing that I think a lot of people are actually talking about it's. It's pretty much the feeling of the. Whenever you're talking to someone and you're trying to just relay something across, you're just having a conversation, usually the Gen Z they'll just stare at you. There won't be any facial, but yeah, I understand, I have any questions. It's just a stare and a lot of times that pisses a lot of people off, because whenever you're talking to someone, you want to be heard, you want to be validated.
Speaker 1:And I want to waste my time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the thing is whether you're like, well, you won't waste my time, I was very interested. You have to. Your body language and your involvement has to showcase that you have to be part of the conversation and that's the thing. These skill sets and whether it's the Gen Z, stare from, you know reduced communication through text messages, emails, you know, sending memes or whatever skill sets when it comes to communications has dropped tremendously, and I personally think that what's going to create opportunities for a lot of people, whether you're starting off in the career or you're experienced, is your interpersonal skills.
Speaker 1:Well, nothing beats it. You know, we went through a rough period and it's probably a pretty strong example when COVID hit and for companies like ours and millions of companies around the world, you couldn't have face-to-face meetings, you couldn't shake a hand, you couldn't make an agreement, you couldn't read the body language. While you're sitting there in a meeting making a sales pitch and it's a lot and what I see is this generation hasn't really recovered from that. Right, they're still in that mode of we're going to do everything, zoom, oh, I'm going to send this person a text and see if they want to go to lunch in a week.
Speaker 1:That's just, or hey, can I get an order? But I'm going to do that in a text message or just an email and it doesn't work. You know we're humans, are very interactive, we're personal. You know we like to be in each other's space to a degree and you know, since we've recovered from COVID and we're back to, you know, full face-to-face meetings, I can tell you that the communication has increased dramatically. We have a lot more information coming in.
Speaker 2:So it's information, it's data. So here's the deal, and this is why this is what I always talk to operators as well too. The service companies are the subject matter experts, right? So when it comes to chemistry like, I'm not going to sit there with my internal team and talk about the best chemicals to go down for FRs and all that stuff I'm going to go to a service company LFS chemistry and talk to you about that, the ability and you hear this around all the crew club round tables too. It's like we heard this at the IADC AD event. It's like moving forward. It's not going to be low cost. It can't be low cost anymore. It has to be through more collaboration, more communication, more everyone understand the why. But that's not going to happen without the conversations Correct. It's not going to be through AI.
Speaker 1:Correct, well, service companies. None of the E&Ps, none of the producers, would even exist without the service companies. It's you know. You can look at it as a hierarchy or totem pole or whatever you want to look at it, but it doesn't. It doesn't change the fact that none of that happens without the SMEs at the service company level. In our world, uh, in oil and gas, whether it's completions, production, midstream, uh, drilling, doesn't matter changes and evolves so fast. New technologies are emerging daily. I mean, it's almost impossible to keep up with if you're an engineer sitting at a desk.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't matter if there's a team of 10 of you that are responsible for a particular asset.
Speaker 1:You can't keep up with it. You have to rely on communication from the service companies to bring you the information, all this AI tool On communication from the service companies to bring you the information. Your job to decipher what's real and what's not, and what fits and what does not fit is a part of the conversation, are you?
Speaker 2:finding more conversations occur between service and operator side of things currently over the past. You know more now than it was past. You know 18 months. Are you seeing more?
Speaker 1:conversations. Now we're seeing that increase dramatically.
Speaker 2:Okay, really.
Speaker 1:We're seeing more of a shift to the value proposition. So it's, um, you know you and I were talking this morning that we're starting to see some companies yeah, you know be on the fringe of existence on the service side, and you know you could argue that that you know, in a lot of ways that can be healthy for our industry as a whole. Uh, cause, those that generally go out first didn't have a very good value proposition for the industry. But if you know, and and even if they had some absolutely fantastic technology, that the industry could really grab a hold of value, if you can't communicate that and and make that value proposition, you're going to fail.
Speaker 2:So that is such a key thing that I love this, because you're kind of plugging what I do, you know when it comes to training and development, but just because you're having those conversations, you know, just because you actually have that setting to have those not you know industry jargon, ai computing, increased productivity, higher efficiencies but actually communicate your value. Have those skill sets. Not even skill sets For me, it's just even like I'm with a lot of companies like what makes you different? Why would I buy from you? What makes you different? It's such a generic response. It's very generic. If you can't bridge that and actually speak clearly and effectively what your actual value is, then you're really just kind of wasting everyone's time and you can't and you're not going to stand out amongst the competitors.
Speaker 1:And that ties into exactly what you focused on today, all the way down to the internship. If you can't broadcast, if you can't communicate your value, you're not going to get those positions. You're not going to get the positions you want. You're not going to get those positions. You're not going to get the positions you want. More importantly, you know you're going to end up somewhere you never intended to go and it's just because you did not effectively communicate why I belong here. And it's the same thing that we focus on in the, in the sales world or or even in the operations world, is, you know, anybody can sell on what? Yes, what am I?
Speaker 2:yeah, what am I doing here? We have this feature. Oh, it's 40 ounces. It has a school.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very few people can communicate and effectively sell on the why.
Speaker 2:Why do you need this? Well, because I'm at higher altitudes and I need to drink more water. Yeah, otherwise I'm going to be dehydrated.
Speaker 1:That goes for an engineer sitting at a desk. They've got to be able to ask the question back to the vendors. Why do I need you?
Speaker 2:It's okay. I find that the most, the sharpest engineers in the room are usually the ones asking the questions. They're the ones that are curious. They're the ones that actually don't come to the table thinking I know it all, I'm the engineer, I know it all. They're the ones that actually kind of break down and say hold on, jim, talk to me about that. I don't understand this. They're the ones that actually ask the questions.
Speaker 1:Yes, and they want to learn. We find that too, we, and that that highway of information has to work both directions, and that's that's key to these kids that say kids.
Speaker 2:I hate that. I know it's dating me at this point.
Speaker 1:I do I do the same thing Um these young men and women here that are going out into the workforce.
Speaker 1:You know it's. It's critical for that highway to run both directions. I couldn't tell you how many hundreds, if not thousands, of lunch and learns I've done over the years. And you may have 10 upper management, middle management, entry-level engineers, operations managers, whatever is in the room that are influencers or decision makers, and you can always tell there's going to be one or two out of 10 that are going to be engaging. They're not staring at their phone the whole time.
Speaker 2:They're not giving the Gen Z stare.
Speaker 1:Which, by the way, is the reason I still wear an analog.
Speaker 2:Analog watches all the day. I don't have one on Apple Watch.
Speaker 1:And again, these are things that are important to communication, right, when you see somebody doing this all the time.
Speaker 2:It throws you off. So that's why at crew club tables it's like no phones, like we're all adults, we all understand you have phone calls, but please, it interrupts the pattern of conversation.
Speaker 1:And you could even see it today with the young men and women, thank you, the ones that went to the back of the room, grabbed a box of Chick-fil-A and ate and sat there quietly and you couldn't even get them to raise a hand when you asked how many of you had an internship? How many of you are looking for an internship? And half the room stays Quiet. T how many of you are looking for an internship? And half the room stays Quiet, tucked in quiet, arms crossed, whatever it might be. And you did a good job of talking about body language and how important that is, you know. But then you had the one or two. In this case, I think we actually had a pretty good handful.
Speaker 1:Five or six out of 20 that were pretty engaging and even if you engaged them first, they responded very effectively. Yeah, and they're really putting some critical thinking into how they wanted to respond.
Speaker 2:One of my biggest things, and this is just this is for students, this is for professionals whether it's engineers or salespeople or operations people, it doesn't matter. Have some questions to start a conversation. Have two or three questions your back pocket if you're going to meet with a customer, or if you you're an engineer and you're meeting with a service company on stuff. Have some questions that you might not know, that you just want to dive into more to help clarify some stuff. If you're a student, have some questions about the company. If you're an engineer, have some questions about the service line. Right, have questions because you don't know what you don't know first off and second off. Just those natural conversations. Just I think it unlocks a lot of opportunity for magic to happen. You know, that's how you discover quad frac or trimal frac or cymovs and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:That comes through conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and these up-and-coming industry veterans at some point.
Speaker 1:There you go, you know. I think today if they took anything away is that they're they'll always be selling, yes, always going to be selling something right. Most of the time it's going to be themselves selling up, selling down. I can do this, I can lead this. I need this. Here's what I want. I'm going to go buy it, um, you know. So some of those key points that we talked about at the career fair that's coming up here at school of minds in a couple of weeks. You know, some of these were sidebar conversations, some were direct in the presentation was you know, as an intern or future intern, take a notepad and paper with you.
Speaker 1:yes, it doesn't mean you have to stand there studious, in front of a recruiter, but if someone says something bright or somebody but the minute you walk away from your, your 45 seconds or your minute or two minutes, whatever you happen to get with that that person on the other side of the table, step away and write some notes about how that interaction went. Was there some catchphrase or some something catchy that they said that you're like I'm intrigued about that? Did they talk about something that their company does, maybe in a, in a social or governance environment, you know, are they a big part of a charity or they could be anything, so that when you send your follow-up email communication or a phone call or whatever, whatever that looks like for that particular company, you reference a few of those and it really makes you stand out as wow, that person engaged. That person stayed engaged the entire time. They heard me and you know what. Maybe I didn't hear everything they said, but I want to.
Speaker 2:That's the type of person I want. So through effective follow-up when it comes. And again, listen, at the end of the day, if you're a salesperson, we get it. You want to sell the work. If you're a student, we get it. You want the job, we get the main thing. The job we get the main thing. However, if you're able to continue the conversation without asking for that specific thing, whether it's that sale or the job or whatever that is, and you're actually just adding more depth, I'm kind of echoing what you're just saying. Like, hey, let's say you're talking about AI in the chemical space and all this stuff, and I heard a podcast about that. I'm going to send that to you and say, jim, just to continue the conversation, you brought this up and that just adds more rapport with people. You're right, it's like wow, that JP. I mean, I know he's a student, I know he's, I know he probably needs a job, but he's, he's taken effort to actually level up our, our conversation playing field. I like it.
Speaker 2:Question about kind of you know we saw the. I want to switch gears right now to kind of. I want to wrap this up with kind of the uncertainty right now in this industry. So this industry is obviously we're coming to Q4 right now. We're recording this September 3rd 2025. And you know, conoco 25%. You hear uncertainty everywhere around, whether it's regulation, whether it's administration, whether it's methane, whatever it is Coming into Q4, when you start seeing companies start shutting the doors and all that stuff, how do you, what are some strategies to navigate? And obviously this might be it doesn't have to be LFS specific, but as someone that's been through many different businesses, that many different industries as well, how do you navigate uncertainty, how do you make the best decisions in an uncertain market, especially right now?
Speaker 1:Well, this all comes back to that value proposition. You get in, you get in the door and you create value for an organization. If you're creating the least amount of value for the organization, or even if you're creating a ton of value and no one knows it, that it's you creating the value. You're going to be the first one in an uncertain world. That's let go. At the end of the day, every company out there runs on budgets. So if the revenue doesn't fit the budget that was forecast for the year, there's going to be changes, plain and simple. The Conoco deal is not necessarily because of a downturn or you know, oil's still in the 60s last time I checked, you know mid 60s.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not the end of the world.
Speaker 1:There, you know it's. It's an okay spot for a lot of people. Sure, they're slowing down a little um at the emp level. These are the times when a lot of the engineers, at any level in the organization, are taking on really big science projects, new technology. They're looking at some other acreage that they hadn't put a lot of focus into before because they have a little bit of time to do it. Instead of just we're chasing that rig at 850 miles an hour and hoping that you know we keep up with it and hitting all these guidance numbers. Right Now it's more of a. How do we get more out of every single well, do we? How do we maximize our capital efficiency?
Speaker 2:so it's stepping back and kind of looking at how you proceed in 2026 a little bit slower. So you think now's the opportunity.
Speaker 1:So typically what I'd say outside of a merger, acquisition, divestiture, that that type of scenario where, where some of these folks have zero control. You know that that's kind of a hail mary right you don't know what's going to happen until it happens. You know in the back of your head, anytime you're merged in with another group or acquired by another group, you're always going to be thinking well, they already have an entire team.
Speaker 2:Who needs me? What's the?
Speaker 1:chances that I'm going to get high graded into that team and someone else gets let go when they already have a team. That's all stuff it. You can't worry about that. That's where creating those critical networks are important is to be ahead of that. You know, if you're talking to other engineers in other basins and other parts of the world on a regular basis, you'll see these coming from a mile away. You know, almost every acquisition starts with a rumor a year before it happens. Yeah, yeah, how many times have you and I had a conversation where, like, hey, man, a little grumbling, that so-and-so is about to get married.
Speaker 2:Devin's doing this. We may have missed a few of the key details, but ultimately in a year that company's gone.
Speaker 1:It seems to always happen, you know. So if, if you've got your your ear to the ground, you're really listening for these things and I'm not talking about confidential information yeah, you know, it's just hey, you know. Okay, well, we dropped two rigs, we had 10. We're down to eight. You know, rumor is we're probably going to drop two more. Okay, now you, in the back of your mind, you just say what's happening here? We're either getting ready to unload some acreage, you know, maybe we're going to be acquired, maybe we're just going to stop expectation. Okay, it can be any number of things, but did you create value in that organization and are you, do you feel comfortable and safe? You should be able to have that conversation.
Speaker 2:If you're, I don't feel I don't feel like a lot of people would have those conversations, though I really don't, I feel, because I think it's do more with less. You don't want to, you know, stick your neck up you know like you want to go into the radar, so it's.
Speaker 1:I equate that conversation to the exact conversation a salesman has to have with a buyer. Is okay. Have I convinced you that of everything you need to know to have a purchase order or an order, sales people all over the world spend so much time getting to the point where they should ask and then they don't. Yes, that conversation right there can create as much relationship tension as going to your boss or your boss's boss and saying noticed a few changes here in the organization. How are you feeling about all this? That should not be a bad conversation. No, it shouldn't A. It shows that you're well aware of everything happening in the organization, and that can be from an intern all the way up.
Speaker 2:You have the, you have the leadership, uh tenacity to even bring this up with your spirit.
Speaker 1:One of the things I really like to hear today is is one of the one of the students has an intern twice for the same company, two summers in a row. To me he's created value within that particular organization where he's probably going to get offered a job. Not many people if you get invited back for multiple internships. You've done something right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've connected the right way, or you showcase yourself in the right way, you know that's one thing I always I like to ask if we're hiring somebody young and I haven't had to do this in a while, but you know as okay you were in, you were studying for four years and you did four internships with four different companies. Did any one of those four offer you a position? If not, why Is it? Because you just were a college student and went through the two and a half three months of okay I did some spreadsheets and I checked the boxes and a lot of people do that, though.
Speaker 1:I met a couple of people and I get to say that I had the experience, but you didn't really engage and you didn't really commit right. It's the people that don't commit to the position that are going to be the first out.
Speaker 2:You know, I had this conversation with my buddy in Denver. He was last summer. We were connecting students with industry professionals and he shot it out to like 20 of his interns Zero replies, zero people went down the hall and says hey, thanks for sending that. What's this all about? Hey, who are you? My name is JP. Like, how did you get to where we are? He goes. It was fascinating that zero people came down the hall and introduced themselves or asked what this is about. He goes there's only two slots at our company. This is a three-month-long job interview. How are you not trying to get away from the computer and meet people? And it's just like it's just a missed opportunity? Absolutely, but there's a but. The mindset is oh, I don't want to bother them. I don't want to bother them to say that I've noticed things slowing down. We're dropping rigs and seeing what's going on. I don't want to bother.
Speaker 1:It's a conversation that bothers them Absolutely, and that's that's a part of that entire engagement process.
Speaker 2:If you're not engaged from day one and you can be as energetic and as outgoing as you want to be and you can have the right questions, if that only lasts for one out of three months at an internship, you've already lost the race but even going to what you're saying about even established professionals too, like whenever you know shit started in the fan or industry engineers, decision-making engineers, have probably the worst job out there, because you know there's that oh shit moment and then everyone starts calling, everyone starts trying to get those relations. Hey, I'll pitch that. Hey, well, you know we're selling the, hey, we're offloading this and, and that just goes all transactional. There's no value created, so it's transactional. But it's always usually when you have to get there. Yes, you know, you know that's it's.
Speaker 2:This industry is a very long play industry. You know what I mean. So having those relationships, having those value conversations, well before shit hits the fan, is such a I mean, it's always, it's such a knee jerk. There's majority of people have knee jerk reactions and to me that just kills companies. Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does. Yeah, and that again we're talking about the layoff scenario, the going away. If those engineers are communicating effectively with all of their vendors, their service companies, they're going to know that they're coming. Well, after they hear about grumblings in the service companies, yeah, service companies are the first indicators, right? Usually the drilling rig companies, drilling rig, usually the drilling rig companies Drilling rig and it's If they start laying down rigs and start stacking rigs and laying off personnel, we know that something's coming through the entire industry. What is?
Speaker 2:this, the pipe industry, the pipe.
Speaker 1:Thank you.