Navigating Wine, Personal Growth, & Online Bullying with Natalie MacLean (Part 2)

Ep 89

Have you ever wondered what it’s like to dive deep into the world of wine while facing the challenges of online bullying?

In today’s episode I have Natalie MacLean back on the podcast and she’s diving into the world of wine through an experiential and personal lens.

Natalie shares her unique approach to wine journalism, the emotional and cultural impact of wine, and challenges within the hospitality industry - from high rates of substance abuse to etiquette norms that stigmatize open discussions about alcohol misuse. Natalie also shares her personal experiences towards alcohol consumption and online bullying.

So, if you are ready to dig into the emotional and cultural layers of wine, confront industry challenges like online bullying, and get a taste of Natalie’s adventurous stories this episode is for you!

Today's episode is part 2 of my chat with Natalie. If you missed the first part where we chat about Natalie's journey as a wine writer, her memoir Wine Witch on Fire, and if wine reviews are actually helpful, then go back and listen to episode 88!

Connect with Natalie:

Website: https://www.nataliemaclean.com/

Natalie’s Books: https://www.nataliemaclean.com/blog/books/

Free Pairing Guide& Book Club Guide: https://www.nataliemaclean.com/

Episode Highlights:

• Books by Natalie: Red, White and Drunk All Over, Unquenchable, and Wine Witch on Fire

• Experiential journalism

• Natalie’s unique experiences such as shark diving

• Wine’s emotional and cultural impact

• Natalie’s personal struggles with alcohol during challenging times

• Natalie’s personal contemplation on her relationship with alcohol

• Harassment and inequality in the wine and hospitality industry

• Turning marginalizing terms into symbols of strength and wisdom

• Natalie’s favorite food and wine pairing that you’ll never guess

Transcript

0:00

Okay. Before we do more into the memoir, because I'm very excited to talk more into that, can you tell us about your 2 other books that you've written real quick? Sure. So they are a day in the light of approach. So the first one is Red, White, and Drunk All Over, a tipsy journey from grape to glass. And then the second one was unquenchable, a oh, sorry. I get all these words mixed up. The subtitle of the first one was a wine soap journey from grape to glass, unquenchable, a tipsy search for the world's best bargain bottles. Bit of a theme, but it's, again, going back to the Kermit Lynch model. It's doing and storytelling rather than just interviewing or observing. So I worked at a fancy French restaurant for several nights as a sommelier with a tuxedo and everything, shadowing the real sommelier, to talk about what is good wine service. How do you choose from a restaurant wine list, especially a big one? How do you pair wine with food? What should the sommelier be doing? How much should you tip? You know? Is it different for when you have an expensive bottle? All kinds of issues come up. But instead of just giving you a prescription for that, I use the color of being there, and I'm always sort of, taking potshots at myself, humor wise, in terms of the silly things I do and say. And it just it has a lot more color. I worked in several wine shops, one in California, another in New York, to talk about how to buy wine. So I'm helping different customers with different problems or challenges, dinner parties, whatever. I I love Cheetos. What's the pairing? To talk about that that aspect. And as I mentioned, I work the harvest in California. So it's all of that. And then there's just other things I do. Like, I went over to South Africa, and I went shark diving with a with a winemaker wearing cages, great white sharks off the coast. Were you expecting that? Was that, like, on the agenda, or did that just kinda come out of nowhere? Yeah. I actually run toward the fire. So I when I set up interviews, I wanna do something unusual with people that they that is already a passion for them. He was a he was a diver, and he had done this a lot in addition to making wine. So I'm trying to get at people's other passions, but also do it with them rather than just sit back and interview with them. It comes from that, well, they they call it the new school of journalism, but it dates back to the sixties. George Plimpton played in the NFL even though he really wasn't a football player to write about it. You know, Joan Didion and Gaeteliz and the guy who wrote In Cold Blood, I can't remember right now. So it's the the do, don't observe, don't just observe. So these things lend themselves to more color, more emotion. Again, you're trying to incorporate the emotion and the humor tie into that limbic system that we'll remember because it it's also the seat of our memories. If you wanna remember all that info, you gotta wrap it all around the storytelling, the emotion, the humor, everything else. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I will have links in the show notes for folks listening to all of the books. You can go check them out. I'm sure they're also, like, readily available on Amazon. You can find them in your local bookstore as well, so just keep an eye out for those. Okay. Now I do wanna get into, you know, the drinking part of wine, because I think it's really interesting. It really caught my caught my eye when I was reading because I always make the joke that, you know, I love wine and, like, the downside is that it has alcohol. Like, if only it could taste this good and didn't have alcohol. You know, kinda like sugary foods. Right? You're like, it just tastes good, but, like, I'm not doing it because I want the sugar. Like, I just want it because it's good. We're wired. It's dopamine. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just you feel good. But I really like that you don't shy away from the fact that, like, not only does wine just taste good, it has this emotional piece, it has this story behind it, but the alcohol is also a reason to appreciate it that, like, we might not like wine in the same way if it didn't have alcohol because it like you said, it changes your mind, and it and it does things to your system. And I think that was just really interesting to read someone actually talking about that and admitting that, like, I did like the buzz too. Like, it wasn't just the wine. And so do you think other wine professionals think this way and just don't talk about it, or why is it not a thing that's talked about as much in the wine world? It might be tied into that bit that we talked about earlier that to be professional, you have to be serious. So you're not going to admit to any buzz or frivolity or feeling a little tipsy. So I think it is unusual for a lot of wine critics, and they they might view that admitting to that as unprofessional, and and that's fine. They can have their own opinion on that. But for me, it's if I'm talking about the human experience of wine, it's not just because it smells like violets and oak and a vanilla spice. It's because it's also, you know, as you say, changing our mind states. Michael Polan, who wrote the omnivores dilemma, great book, also wrote about our brains on LSD, you know, changing your world by changing your mind state. I think that's another reason why wine appeals to me rather than food and why I didn't become a food writer even though I do wine and food pairings. Because you've got all the sensory pleasure, and it's a drug. You know? Or toxin, if you wanna call it. But in moderation, I do think it can be part of a healthy lifestyle. And it gives you a wider window, I think, on your life. And for those of those, again, who tend to be a type or any personality, a nice glass of wine can drop you nicely into the moment and expand your horizon. Let your shoulders down. And I'm not advocating it as a way to self medicate to relax. You need to find other ways to do that. And that's part of my struggle in the book that I talk about and the techniques that I found to do that without wine. But wine does have that quality. I think it's a topic that we don't talk about much in our industry because drinking or tasting, I should say, is viewed as an occupational duty, and there's shame in admitting any sort of problem. You know, if if you're not drinking wine, at least as a woman, even outside the wine industry, people say, are you pregnant, or is it a religious reason, or do you have a problem? It's like there's just people all kinda jump to that often if you're not having a glass of wine. But the US Department of Health Services statistics say that the hospitality industry, which includes wineries and restaurants, has the highest rate of substance abuse of any profession. We have easy access to alcohol, and it's very easy to lean on it as a crutch, which which I did during my no good, terrible, very bad vintage personally and professionally. It was right there. Yeah. Even though I've been writing about wine for 14 years up until then with no issue. So I do think there's some things going on. I think there's such a to me, there's this feeling around it where like, all or nothing. Right? And that was something that I really enjoyed reading in your book where you're like, I think I have a problem with this. Do I need to quit it completely? Mhmm. And it was like, but it's my it's my life, you know, and that's something that I've always had. You know, I have, in my family, there is some alcohol, abuse in in in my extended family and they do have proof that that is somewhat, you know, if if your family has it, you could develop it. And so it's something that's always on my mind of, like, thinking about it. But I think that's what's important is is your thinking about it is one piece of it. But I also think this is such an interesting time when I don't think people are drinking as much. I mean, people are either choosing to not drink at all. They're choosing THC or CBD products over alcohol. And then and I think it's like a pull away from this mom juice or, like, the thing that I need to relax, which I am against that. I don't love that idea and you called it out too of, like, you shouldn't drink because you you need it. Like, mommy needs her wine tonight. You know? Like Mommy's little helper. Yeah. Exactly. To be team captain on all those LOL names, but it's like but there's a serious underlying issue there that's kind of like a thanklessness of no one's gonna help mom, so mom's gonna help herself to another drink and then another one. Great way to look at it too. Right? It's not just this, like, mom's you know, and all, like, the glittery shirts or all the, you know, the this and loving wine. But it's a good call out. How do you think people can have this healthy relationship with wine keeping all of these things in mind? Sure. So I think it is a personal decision. Now first, we can look at the health guidelines, which do differ by country. And as I understand it, the US are might be revising their health guidelines next year. In Canada, it remains 2 glasses a day for women, 3 for men, no more than 14 a week or 21. Now there's been lots of scary headlines that have come out with 0 alcohol or 2 drinks a week max, but there's the studies have been problematic. And of course, I'm biased. This is what I do, but I read them all. And I've interviewed lots of doctors and health experts. And so I've come to the personal conclusion that wine in moderation can be part of a a joyous, healthy lifestyle. And so, except, of course, if you have certain medical conditions, if you're pregnant, etcetera, etcetera. For me, because people ask, so what does that mean for you? I, have come to the point in my life where I do not have wine 4 nights a week. I do have wine the other 3, and it's because I'm either going out to a restaurant or we're cooking here at home, like, on a Saturday night. And I will do the half bottle thing, which is approximately 2 and a half glasses, but it's probably closer to 3 depending on the alcohol level, because that changes how many units of alcohol are in that wine. So and I know how what it does to my sleep and how I feel and if I drink several nights in a row, how I feel. So that all sounds like the negative part, but the part I love is that I'm always enjoying wine with food and people, and I don't wanna give that up either. So it's 2 to 3 glasses of wine, 3 nights a week for me right now. And I think it's important that you're calling out, like, for me, and this is what what is important to me. Because I think for some people, they're like, well, can I never drink alone then? Is that what you're saying? It's like, no. Not at all. Like That gives you pleasure. Go for it. I think everybody knows has a intuition if they just listen to it. Like, is this just because I'm stressed or frustrated, or is this because I love a glass of chardonnay when I'm watching The Good Wife or whatever? If that's giving you pleasure, you're slowly doing it, and you're not just using it as an emotional crutch, go for it. That's another one of the tips in my book that I said I had to think. What was the thought just before the thought that said, I need a drink? And if it was about stress or frustration or exhaustion, then could I find another way to deal with it? Just a 5 second circuit breaker, like, a 5 minute or even a 5 minute walk. I put my hand on my heart just to reconnect because we're all up in our heads when we're talking that way to ourselves. Get back down connected to your body. Change your energy, go for a walk, have a bath, watch a show, whatever works for you because often that will that will diminish that I need a drink in the moment. Yes. No. Great call out. I think that's a a great way to to look at it. And then you can still enjoy wine. I think just, yeah, recognizing that it is alcohol. I think the other problem wine has is that it's considered the sophisticated alcohol. So it's like, oh, no. I'm I'm fine. I just drink wine. It's like, yeah. That's still alcohol. You still have to treat it as such as as if, like, you wouldn't have probably 5 cocktails in one night. Maybe not the best idea to have 5 glasses of wine. It's an easy cover, though. Yeah. For people who do overindulge, you know, it's an easy cover because it looks artisanal and sophisticated and, you know, you're not doing shooter glasses. Oh, you like your dry farmed, whatever, organic biodynamic from this small region, and you can cover it up with, you know, connoisseurship, but alcohol is alcohol. Yeah. And it sure doesn't help that wine bottles are 750 milliliters with, like, 5 servings each. Like Yes. The fact that that hasn't changed very much I mean, I know it's, like, very much tradition and just the the size of the bottles, and it'd be so much more money to have to bother with smaller, but it's like that is meant to be shared. That size, like, is what I always remind myself. That size is they are assuming you're putting it on a table with at least a few other people. Oh, and one other trick that you said in your book that I thought was good for people to recognize, like, whenever I go out to eat, my husband and I are going somewhere fancy. I love to get a bottle of wine instead of a glass because, like, you have so many more options. But it's like, do we need to finish? That that's always my concern is, like, if we're ordering this, we should finish it because it's, like, expensive. And I know laws are slightly different based on where you are, but I think most places in the US, as long as they have the type of license, you can just ask them to cork in it, and you can take the rest home. Same in Canada. Almost always. Yeah. Yeah. You can take it home with you. And So you don't have to drink it all? No. You don't have to drink it all. You might want to believe that you have to drink it all. And the other thing is too, like, sometimes, you know, we'll share a bottle and, maybe there's, like, I don't know, 2 or 3 inches left. It's a nice gesture too to your server or your sommelier to say, I'd like you to, you know, please do try this. Like, we're not taking it with us. So it could be a nice little parting gesture as well. Yeah. Oh, that's great advice too. I like it. Oh. Alright. So I do wanna go into one last little topic before we get to our speed round, and it's talking about, again, going back to those professional attacks that that you dealt with. And one thing that which is sad that I was like, of course, this happened. Like, I wasn't surprised, but it was also just, like, was the amount of misogyny and just calling out different things about your looks and who you are as a woman. And it was like, okay, you can be mad about whatever happened, but that is that's exactly when it goes into bullying and is ridiculous that that is still as common as it is. And so many people joined in. This happened in 2012. Do you think there's been a lot that's happened since then. Right? We had the 2020, big article that came out and a lot of women spoke up in the wine world. 2024 now, do you think much has changed since then? Yes and no. Yeah. So, you know, although the events took place in 2012 in this book, I think the themes and issues are more relevant today. I think they might be more subtle, more underground in some circumstances, but it still persists. So you alluded to this. So so what happened back in 2012 was before Harvey Weinstein, me too, all the rest of it. And you alluded to the newspaper article, The New York Times published a scathing expose, multi pages in 2020 about the quartermaster sommeliers, all the top notch people in that had to resign. There's been studies, 89% of those in the hospitality industry in the UK, 89% of women have been harassed. The stats just go on and on in terms of more recent, things. And so things have changed. We're more aware of the issues. There are more support groups for women and others in the industry, but I think the issues still exist, and we still need to keep telling stories, not have the pendulum swing the other way in reaction to that and just to support women and others. There's other marginalized groups, of course, not just women. So I think still a lot needs to be done. Yeah. So Yeah. I mean, it's not gonna change in 12 years. Right? Like, that's That's the deal. We wish. But on the flip side, if we're thinking about it, so there is a question that you asked Karen McNeil, writer of the wine bible, on your podcast, and I wanted to turn it over to you, which is what would you advise young women entering the wine industry? Yeah. I asked her because I was really asking for myself, and I really loved what she advised, which was to to be ambitious, to be professional. And then she said, I can't tell you how many business cards I get from women in the industry who call themselves wine chicks, wine goddesses, wine divas, wine dolls. And I'm thinking, the signature of my email address at the time was chief of wine happiness, because we're always supposed to be sunshine. And then the book is wine witch on fire. And so I asked her, well, as women, we're can we help make wine more accessible by, you know, with these kinds of with this self deprecating humor is what I called it. And she said, no. Not unless you're already in the position of power, which was a good good point because we don't see these monikers for men, like harvest hunks and wine warlocks and stainless steel studs. They just don't do it generally. I haven't seen it. But I also think that while language can marginalize, we have to think about what we're doing and the words we use. I think language can also reclaim some lost meaning. And I'm referring to the word witch because the old narrative was get old, witches, hags, green, warts, black cat, etcetera, which really was an illusion to single women who are older in the days of the Salem witch trials. And, but for me, a witch today, and we've got that new movie coming out, Wicked, is a wise woman who has been through the flames of life and comes out on the other side stronger, fiercer, wiser. Yeah. And so I think there is a a place for certain words if you were trying to reclaim what they used to mean Yeah. Rather than diminishing yourself or others. Yeah. I read that advice. And I was definitely torn because I was like, I never wanna put down a woman who wants to use that terminology, like you said, to be approachable. And I also, like, I kinda took a little offense because I'm like, oh, crap. I laugh a lot. Like, you talked about how, like, you're like, what did you call it? Like, the chuckle something about head. Yes. Laughing at every sentence. It's almost like to soften any opinion. You don't wanna say it's this way, period. You gotta go. It's hard not to. We're taught to be caregivers and conciliatory as women. It's really hard. It's a lot of social conditioning, and it doesn't mean we have to be nasty and whatever. But it's just own I hate to use cliches, but owning your power, standing up for what's right, standing up for others, being strong, and and not backing off just because you're afraid of taking up too much space. Yes. I think that was one thing that, like, if I were to reword it to me, it would be like like take up your space. Like, be like, this is mine. This is like, I made it here. Like, whenever it's like when you're starting to feel that imposter syndrome, if you're feeling like, you know, like, some sometimes I'll feel like, oh, do I know enough about wine to be really telling people this? And it's like, yes. You do. Take up that space. People want to listen to you. People want to hear from you. Have that space. And I think to me, whether I completely agree with, like, terminology making a difference, I definitely think that, like, taking up that space and owning it in your way is so important. Absolutely. Alright. So what's what's next for you before we get to our speed round? I am really loving teaching the online food and wine pairing courses at my site, nataliemclean.com. I am toying around with another book, but I it won't be for a couple years. I need to enjoy life because I kinda put things on hold when I write a book. I kinda dive all in for it, and then you have to come out on the other side and help the publisher market it. So it's quite a commitment to write a book, but, fortunately, these 3 have been worth it in terms of, I think, reaching wine lovers. But also in the case of wine witch going a little bit farther than that because some of the highest or best reviews that I've received are from teetotalers. You know, don't drink at all and still resonated with it. So that means a lot to me. Yeah. And well, I have to share one note, like, with you changing the names, of course. This woman emailed me, and she said, this is John's wife. You know, we lost our son during COVID. He was 21 years old. He took his own life. And John started drinking really hard. And he read your book, and I I do believe it's a big part of why he's now backed off on the drinking. Wow. So that just, you know, those kinds of bills such an impact. Yeah. It still gives me goosebumps when they talk about it. It's like, woof. So, you know, if you're trying to it's one of the questions I ask in the book. Do I bring more pleasure or pain in the world? When you're when you're writing about something that some people can abuse, where's the line as someone who advocates for it or or writes about it? And I think you just have to balance all of those things Yeah. When you are a communicator. So what's next? I mean, just the courses, the website. You know, I do have a free pairing guide on my website for people who want wine and food pairing guidelines that is free. What else is coming up? I you know, some travel, that kind of thing. But, right now, I'm in the thick of holiday wines and spirits on Yeah. TV segments and articles and that that kind of thing. Oh, very fine. Yes. I will also have that, free food and wine guide linked in the show notes for people to find and just your website. They'll be able to find it. Anybody listening will be able to find it there as well. If they find it difficult to spell nataliemclean.com, because there's all kinds of ways you can spell it, you can also just go to winewitchonfire.com, and it'll redirect to my website. So winewitchonfire.com. Perfect. Perfect. Okay. So the end of every podcast, I always like to do what I call this little speed round, and it's just some fun questions. I call it a speed round not because, like, I'm expecting you to rapid fire answer these, but more like the questions, you could ponder them forever. So we're mainly looking for, like, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Doesn't have to be a perfect answer. Alright? Okay. Okay. So the first one is, what is your favorite wine at the moment? Pinot Noir, all kinds of them, like different labels. And I love Pinot Noir. I mean, I start off the book with kind of my own label, Domaine MacLean, and it's Pinot Noir, the heartbreak grape. Right? Because it's so difficult to make and expensive for the self described pathological optimists, winemakers who actually make it. But I love pinot noir, from cool climates like Niagara, like Carneros, like Oregon. Burgundy, of course, but I don't have a trust fund because it has this nervy, edgy acidity, and it's always seems to be sort of quivering on the edge of a nervous breakdown as a grape. And so if I were to go to a party and Cabernet Sauvignon, and its suit was standing over there, very calm, very relaxed, I would head over to the corner where Pinot Noir is starting to cry because it would be so much more interesting to talk to Pinot Noir, I think. You know, it just has this world of flavor, and when it's great, it's sublime. When it's bad, it's terrible. But, of course, you don't have to drink it. Yeah. But it's just so interesting. That's why I love Great. Great answer. That was so fun. Okay. How about a favorite wine region that you've ever visited? I think I'm gonna have to go with Canadian wine region. The Okanagan Valley just above you folks to the north is beautiful. It's stark. It's got, you know, these mountains that plunge down into the Okanagan Lake, and the terrace vines sort of rest on those those, hillsides. And it's just so beautiful. It's got the mountain air, crystalline lakes, and then you can go and just indulge your senses because because a lot of the wineries have restaurants and there's other things to do like biking and ballooning and spas and all sorts of things. But it's just beautiful, beautiful wine country and gorgeous wines that are you get a 30% discount as an American given the exchange rates for the one true. Incredibly priced for you. Yes. It has been on my list, like, ever since, after my trips to Walla Walla. And now I'm like, okay. We did my husband and I went to France this September, and that was, like, my dream trip, you know, to get out there. And now I'm like, we gotta get to Okanagan. It's so close. And every time I hear about it, it just looks beautiful. I've had a few wines, and every wine I've had has been delicious from there. So Mhmm. Gonna Yeah. You must be. Put a little higher on the list, make it bolder, bigger. I don't know. I don't think it can get any more noticeable on the list. Okay. The flip side of that, how about a wine region you'd like to visit? I think the Dalmatian Coast. Okay. You know, I'm a fan of Croatian wines and, just I heard it's a beautiful place to visit. Again, the the scenery and the experience and the food, but the wines I've tasted are are terrific. We don't get lots and lots of them in Canada. So I I review wines from around the world, not just Canadian wines, but, you know, of course, we get lots and lots of American wines from California, Washington, Oregon, and and even other states, and then from countries in Europe and Australia, New Zealand. But so despite the fact we don't get a lot, the ones I've tasted, like you for the Okanagan, I've really, really enjoyed. So that always makes me want to go to the place, and I haven't been there yet. Yeah. Well, I'm sure you have connections, but I do know somebody. There was actually somebody who went on my Walla Walla retreat recently that runs a, wine tourism and food and wine cruise business in Croatia. So if you ever want connections there, let me know. She was also on the podcast. She has an, there's an older episode with her. Renee's had a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. She's she talks about, yeah, a lot of the grapes that, like, you only find in Croatia. It's another one of those regions that, like, they have really, really cool unique wine. So good call out. Okay. Cool. This one's probably a hard one. Your favorite wine and food pairing? I think I would go with a dry rose and ketchup chips. I don't know if ketchup chips are in the US, if they're a thing. They're certainly a thing here in Canada. But I thought like, I I very scientific, of course, when I test food and wine pairing. So I I thought with ketchup, ketchup on its own, like as a sauce, has more sugar per volume than ice cream. It's so it's loaded with sugar and salt. That's why we love it. So I thought ketchup chips. I'm gonna need an off dry or, I don't know, maybe a sweet wine to go with ketchup chips. But the the way they make the ketchup chips here at least is they're more savory, almost like they have a sort of sun dried tomato kinda taste to them. They're they don't taste sweet, and it might be all that salt. My mouth is starting to water just talking about this. So it was amazing how well a dry rose went with the ketchup chips. I just absolutely loved it. The the sweet wines were too sweet and and so on. So after much research, that's what I've concluded is one of my all time favorite pairings. Oh, that's a good one. We'll have to get our hands on some. Maybe when I go to the Okanagan, I'll bring back ketchup chips for everybody to try. There you go. Call Japan. Yeah. Exactly. Border. Yeah. It's important. It's for research. Okay? Exactly. I love it. Okay. Last question. What is a wine that surprised you lately? Can it be category of wines? I think Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Skin fermented white wines. And there's some funky weird stuff out there, but the ones I've absolutely loved almost have are distinctive in that they have an aroma of tea. Like, sometimes Earl Grey tea, sometimes other tea. And, again, this is subjective. You don't have to get this weirdly specific when you're tasting them, but I love tea. And so because I'm also a supertaster, which just means I'm more sensitive, have more taste buds, I don't like coffee. I don't like strong tastes. So skin fermented white wines that have that sort of tea and these sort of sometimes nutty flavors to me are glorious because they have more flavor often than some regular white wines, but they're not bitter. So it's just this weird connection that I love in the skin fermented whites. Such a fun thing to call out. Next time I have a orange wine, the skin fermented, I'll have to see if I notice tea. Because I I am a I am a big lover of tea as well. I also don't drink coffee. I don't know if it's because I the the taste are so much my digestive system is like, heck no to the coffee. We're not gonna do that. Yeah. Absolutely. Mostly a a tea drinker as well, so I'll have to see if I find tea tea aromas in my orange wine. Yeah. Give it a try. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining me on this podcast. It's been a wonderful interview. And like I said, it was really special to get to read, you know, your memoir and and learn more about you and then get to do this interview and dive even more into it. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Haley, this is great. You're a terrific interviewer. I really enjoyed this this conversation. Thank you for reading the book, and, I've been so impressed with you. Of course, I interviewed you on my podcast. So, I can't wait to share that with my listeners, and your listeners can find more about you there and vice versa. But, I've really enjoyed these conversations. Terrific. Thank you so much. Alright. Cheers. Cheers.