How Duncan Savage Is Redefining South African Wine (Part 2)

Ep 131

What happens when a winemaker challenges tradition, one barrel at a time?

In this second part of my interview with South African winemaker Duncan Savage, he shares how he transformed his approach from crafting white wines at Cape Point Vineyards to creating expressive, terroir-driven reds under his own label. He shares how his time crafting white wines at Cape Point Vineyards shaped the philosophy he now brings to his expressive, terroir-driven reds under his own label.

Duncan also takes us inside the evolution of South African winemaking. From shifting away from standardized Sauvignon Blanc styles to embracing authenticity, restraint, and place-driven wines that tell their own story. If you’ve ever wondered what makes the new wave of South African wines so distinctive, this episode offers a glimpse into that transformation.

If you’ve curious how passion, patience, and a little rebellion can reshape an entire wine region, this conversation is one you won’t want to miss!

And don’t forget to go back to episode 130 and listen to the first part of my conversation with Duncan!

Thank you to the following brands for sponsoring this podcast:

• Vacu Vin: Go to us.vacuvin.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 20% off your order!
• VoChill: Go to vochill.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 15% off your order!
• Wine Wash Co: Go to winewashco.com and use code CORK for 20% off your order, plus free U.S. shipping on orders over $35!

Connect with Duncan:

Website - https://broadbent.com/producers/savage-wines/

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/savagewines/

Episode Highlights:

• Transitioning from white to red winemaking
  
  
• Shifting South African Sauvignon Blanc beyond the “Kiwi” style
  
  
• How barrel fermentation and oxidative techniques changed his perspective
  
  
• Why Duncan applies a “white wine approach” to red wines
  
  
• The importance of patience and texture in the winemaking process
  
  
• Redefining what “authentic South African wine” means today

Transcript

0:09

Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Hayley Bowlman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle based wine tasting business, Corporate Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable and lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or a total cork dork like myself, this podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in foreign. Welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. Today you'll be listening to part two of my interview with Duncan Savage. If you have not heard part one yet, I do highly recommend visiting that episode first. You can pause this one and go listen to episode 130 and then come back and you'll get the whole interview all in one. As a reminder, Duncan Savage is one of South Africa's most exciting and celebrated winemakers. He's the founder of Savage Wines, based in Cape Town, where he crafts beautiful, elegant wines that really capture the coastal freshness and energy of South Africa. He's become a leader in South Africa's New wave wine movement and he is incredibly entertaining and knowledgeable on wine. So I know you're going to enjoy this episode. Let's dive in. A lot of the research that I did highlighted you as a leader or one of the first people of South Africa in that South African New wave wine movement. What does that. Is that kind of like what you were talking about, about that new way of focusing on terroir and not just doing what's commercially viable? What does that mean to you, this New Wave wine movement? Well, it. New Wave. So we did a series of tastings. Well, two tastings in London that was started by our importers. Four importers or five importers got together. They believed in South African wine and they did the tasting. I can't remember early 2000s called New Wave. And the first New Wave did pretty well in London. It was good attendance. Then two years later, they did the second New Wave. I don't know if you know who Jancis Robinson is, but she's quite a schwanky British critic. And Jancis apparently stood in a queue at the second New Wave for half an hour. And Jancis doesn't queue so the fact that Janis queued to get in, it was completely sold out. It was a massive hit. The only mistake about New Wave was none of us look very New Wave anymore. So the name we kind of had to stop to. You can't say Old Wave or, like, whatever. You know, it's like we all looking a bit long in the tooth. So they've done a similar thing in the Netherlands now called. I spoke to my Dutch importer and he rallied a few guys, and I said, I told them they need to do it, but don't call it New Wave. So they called it Cape Crew. So at least it's got legs into the future, you know. But I think that that was what you talking about is exactly that, you know, the dynamic of a younger generation coming in. And look, you know, there were some fantastic wines in the past, but, you know, obviously with our history and the limitations of what was happening in South Africa at the time, a lot of the dodgy stuff got exported. And, you know, there's always been good wines here. If you come here, I could put corks on stuff from the 70s and that'll blow your mind. But you needed people as a collective to start saying, well, how do we take South Africa to the next level and people not also sort of. You can't have that sort of approach that some of the regions in Old World or in Europe or in France or whatever take where people come to them, regardless. They don't travel, they don't market. We've had to get out there and sell South Africa to the people. And that's why, as well, when people come here, we've got a lot of amazing festivals and that. That showcase these awesome wines and showcase the spirit of the people. And obviously, it's like anything. It's like a sports team that's winning. It motivates people to want to play that sport, be involved, you know, uplift. As soon as people see that things are working, it kind of makes more people want to get involved. You know, it's some random farmer growing grapes somewhere. Maybe he makes a little bit more effort, you know, a few days or whatever. It all kind of. That collective just lifts everyone. Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. New Haven now. What'd you say it was? Now the Cape Crew is what you're. What you're going with. Cape Crew is the one that happens in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam. Nice. So we basically go to Amsterdam for three days, and we don't sleep. We do a wine show. We get drunk and we just. You know, repeat. All right, well, I need to request that the Cape crew come to Seattle because we need to try more of these wines, and I'd love to try all those. So we've talked a lot about your winemaking, but can you kind of go into detail? How would you describe your winemaking style, both in the winery and, you know, out in the vineyard? So at Cape Point Vineyards, we were a white wine producer. We made tank and barrel fermented white wines. Mostly sauvignon was planted there. And we sort of tried to change the dynamic a little bit with South African Sauvignon. Instead of trying to emulate the Kiwi style, we started going more barrel, more oxidative styles, all that kind of stuff. So, I mean, you had to do it slowly because obviously there was a style that was accepted in South Africa. And through that kind of. I left there. And my business now is, to a certain extent, largely focused on red wines. And I've kind of always say to people, I've taken sort of a white wine a approach to red wines, where at the time when I started making my first reds, a lot of South African Reds were 15 alcohol with huge amounts of wood. And I'm, you know, if you work hard in the vineyards, the last thing you want to do is make your wine taste drawn like a tree from France. So, you know, what we decided to do was basically, we do no new oak on any of our reds. We like to pick earlier for a bit of freshness, but the wines must still be Venice. So some of our earlier vintages, we were sort of around the 12 and a half alcohol level, which was maybe a little bit too low. You know, if you look at our wines today, they generally between sort of 13, 13, 8 is a nice level. You know, just in terms of freshness of fruit when you're picking, in terms of what the vineyards can do, you know, and we've put a lot of effort into these old parcels that we work with. You know, a lot of the vines, we've seen how these old neglected blocks are just starting to respond. You know, these little vines that look like if you walked into the vineyard, they sucked the energy out of you. Now they got their chests out, and they sort of all, you know, they just got new life and new vigor and new energy, and it's so cool to see that through farming. So we just trying to showcase that in the wines. Wine with purity and a bit of energy and. And a lot of people, you know, like, in the early days, even my mom used to say, to me, you know, I'd pour one of my, my cinsones, which is light in color and vibrant and fresh. And she. It's like, come on, Duncan, just pour me a proper one. But she's come around. You know, the old ducks come around. And it's like now there's this whole sort of trend, you know, guys like Ibn Saudi at the forefront. You know, there's so many cool people that are doing cool things and, and, and don't be get me wrong, you know, there's still a lot of that bigger, bolder style, but people have just learned how to manage vineyards. Rain in the oak a little bit, you know, just try and get generally a little bit more balance into the wines. And I always say to people, you know, it's. My wife just rolls her eyes whenever I start talking about the Pendulum. But there's a, There's a reason, because it's like, you know, we always go too much to the one way or too much to the other way. And if you just sit in the middle, it's actually, it's. You could say it's a safe place to be. But there's a reason. You know, everything like balance in a wine, you don't want it too ripe because it's overpowering. You don't want it too light because it's not Venice. You, you just gotta try and find that balance. And I think that that example of the Pendulum is just such a good one. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely one. I think it goes along with like, what consumers are interested in, at least in the States right now. I don't know if it's outside of the States, but like, there is this move from the big bold. You know, I think Napa Cabernet was what, you know, a lot of like folks in my parents generation drank versus now you have, you know, the younger generations coming up that are like, I don't want that big, bold, like you said, oaky flavor. Like, I actually want each of the different red wines. If it's made with different grapes, I want it to taste different. I'm wanting, I'm like curious what those are. And I want it to be lighter. I don't need a wine that has 15% alcohol. We're not drinking to get drunk like we were when we were, you know, 16, 18, 21 years old. Of course, here in the States, we all wait till we're 21, but we just want to drink to enjoy. And those lighter wines tend to go so much better. And they also go better with food. At least in my opinion. Yeah, no, completely. But remember, there's a place for everything. And I always say to people that, you know, like different strokes for different folks. And that's what makes the wine world so incredible. If we all drank the same thing, it would be terrible. So, you know, to kind of fill these. And also think about, like years ago, like our parents used to go to events and they'd drink a white wine that was probably 12% alcohol. The claret or the Bordeaux they were drinking at the time was probably 12 and a half. Then they would drink port and Madeira and these kind of things. You know, nowadays by the time you get to the Madeira, you're lying under the table because your white wine was 14%, your red wine's 15 and a half, you know, because South Africa's got a very rich heritage with fortified. And I've been really like buying up and trying to find all these old parcels of like 50 year old port styles and, you know, the old sherrys. And that's so interesting. I bought up so much old Madeira over the last couple, you know, 10 years. I'm so intrigued by these wines that just sort of have this almost eternal life, you know, and it's. And they can be so incredible. So there's a place for everything. But it's just about finding, you know, a style that suits the person because it's a reflection of whose business it is. You know, it's like our style has become synonymous with our business. And, you know, we've developed a lot of followers because of it. You know, in the beginning that was maybe people didn't really couldn't identify the wines and they weren't sure when they tasted them. Now they're actually coming to us because of it, you know, so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's talk specifically about your wines that you make. So we're going to assume, I know it's a little harder for those that are in the States. It's kind of what's available or what we can get here. But I know there's some that are imported in here. But let's assume folks have access to like your entire collection or, you know, your entire release. Can you highlight three wines that you feel like would best represent Savage wines as a whole for like somebody just being introduced? Yeah. So just interesting one, just to go back, one thing I wanted to say to you just now, which is quite interesting about South Africa and South African wine, is that if you'd said to me 10 years ago we'd be selling wine today into Australia and New Zealand, which are wine producing countries, I would have said, not a chance. And we sell to them. Spain. We own a lot of the best restaurants in Barcelona and a few other parts of Spain. We've got a great agent there. You know, I'm selling wines into France. Our agent in France asked me a couple for a couple of times, you know, can we buy some wine? I was like, dude, you got a lot of wine. Why do you need to buy South African wine? He says, no, the world has changed, the palates have changed. People are interested in these things, which is super cool. What was the question again? What are we supposed to be talking about? 3 wines. Pick three wines that best represent Savage Wine. So Follow the Line is very close to our heart. So we started with Savage White and Savage Red. And in the beginning, we did these two wines because it was a means to an end. We didn't know the vineyards, you know, even though we've been working some of these vineyards now for the last. Well since 2011, it's a short span of time in the context of vines, you know, so we kind of only like on the third date, you know, in terms of, if you think about it in terms of that sort of dynamic. But we wanted in the beginning, without knowledge of these parcels, just to blend the vineyards together until such time as we became comfortable to bottle them on their own. And one of the first wines we bottled on its own is a wine called Follow the Line, and it's a Cinsault from Darling. So Cinsault is a grape which is planted in the south of France, often used for. It was planted for mass production in South Africa. But when the vines get old, when you get old, you reach your happy place. You reach that sort of point where you're not trying to impress anyone anymore, you're not trying to impress the farmer with these massive amounts of grapes. You just settle back, you know your environment, you know, it's hot today. Don't worry, Joe Farmer. We are right. We've seen this before. And the old vines just crop low crops naturally. They're just in balance with the environment. And we found this incredible old parcel in Darling. Look, I'd say it's old. It's not that old. It's only 43 years old, but it's beautiful, as I said, working there today. And everybody thinks that the name Follow the Line is like the lyrics of a Johnny Cash song or something sort of philosophical or something like that. It wasn't the case. We just got lost looking for the vineyard and on the third phone call, the guy told me to. In Afrikaans, folk die folk and telephone, which means follow the effing telephone line in Afrikaans. And I looked up because I was. You had to drive through his neighbor's property and there was a whole bunch of dirt roads. And I realized as I looked up, you know, when you're lost, you can't see the wood for the tree. So as I looked up, I saw this bloody telephone line and realized that obviously that's going to the house. So we used to write on the barrels in the early days, as a joke. We used to write folk the Focken Lane. And I'm sorry for the swearing, but I'm swearing in Afrikaans, so it doesn't really count. Yeah, so it's Ambushius Hollands. It's a little bit different in sound, but anyway, so we used to write this on the barrels. And then a designer mate of mine, a guy called Anthony Lane, he liked the story so much he sent me an email and he said, listen, I liked your story. I did you a drawing. I don't have one of the bottles here now, but if you see the bottle, Follow the Line. It's got just a telephone pole and the wire, a little bird on it. And it was the coolest drawing. There's no other information on there. When I saw that, I was like, that's the label. And we called it Follow the Line. Everybody told us we were crazy because everyone said you've got to have vintage and variety and all that on the front label. But it's got a backlash. Everything's on the back label, so who cares? So Follow the Line is very close to our hearts because the farmer, you know, became the best of mates. He was irritable with me in the first meeting, which lasted five minutes. And then our later meetings used to. I never used to. I used to go visit him just for a. Just to check on the vineyards. And I wouldn't come home. I'd like, you know, we'd make a fire and eventually throw some meat on. And by the time we had eaten, we were too drunk to drive home. And it was just, you know, it was that kind of relationship. And the poor bugger lost his wife in a car crash a few years back, which was quite sad. But that's why it's kind of like a very strong emotional connection. So Savage White is a Bordeaux style blend, Sauvignon Semillon, from sort of a little bit more altitude, an hour and a half away from the ocean. So a lot of our vineyards we Work with are quite maritime. This is not. It's elevation. It's apple country. It's a combination of granite, some sandstone soils as well. Sauvignon Semillon. It's a really textural style. Year in barrel. You know, there's a touch of new oak there. It's. It's the only wine that we'll use in the. In the winery just to kind of almost take the new oak out of. You have to buy some new barrels. And we always, you know, we'll use a new barrel on this. On the Savage White occasionally. And then once it's. We feel there's no more wood flavor in it, we'll send it over to the reds. You know, it's kind of like interesting approach, but it kind of works for us. And then, you know, we've had a. We've got a. So we've got wines called Thief in the Night. Never been asked to dance that Shannon I told you about, which was this beautiful old block which was left for dead and we resurrected. Are we there yet? Not tonight, Josephine. What else? Oh, Girl Next Door. Girl Next Door is a really cool little wine. So it's this two little parcels in a property development and then another parcel. The other second parcel is a friend of mine that used to live next. Well, she lives next door to Cape Point Vineyard. And she phoned me many years ago and said, listen, please, can you tell me what to do with my olive trees because they won't grow. So I said, well, take them out and let's plant a vineyard here. So we planted 0.2 of a hectare. It's a little Syrah parcel 3 1/2 kilometers from the beach. And that little wine is based on these two parcels which together equate to 0.58 of a hectare. We've done everything there from the beginning by hand. They super interesting wines. You know, it's this maritime style of Syrah, black olive oil, you know, that sort of herbal character. But not like we have this natural vegetation here called fainbos, which people might have. It's similar to when the French talk of the garrigue in the south of France. So it's that kind of concept, but just lots of sort of white pepper, black olive, that salinity from the ocean, you know, a lot of that wind coming off the sea. And that's called Girl Next Door because it was this little ugly duckling of a vineyard that just blossomed into this beautiful, beautiful vineyard. So we've kind of like, you know, stories of vineyards and link them to kind of like it's, it's nice when the wine has a. Has a story about it, a little bit of personality and linked to a vineyard that's quite specific, you know, so we've always said if we lose or leases don't get renewed, we'll stop those wines. We won't carry on and try and do them with another vineyard. So, yes, I mean, a lot of different wines, but just look out for something for Savage and have a crack. Yeah. Honestly, I don't think anyone can go wrong with that. You've already. It's funny, my next question was about the names because I do love the names of all the wines. And I'd also caught in another interview you'd done the story of follow the line of, you know where that name came from. And then you mentioned Girl next Door, Never been asked to Dance and those all had stories. Do each of your wines, like, do they all have kind of the story of where the name essentially came from? I love producing this podcast for you every week, but here's the truth. It's not free. That's why I'm so grateful for sponsors like the following brands supporting me so that I can share everything I love about wine with you. If you're able, show them some support back. Thank you to Vocill for sponsoring this episode. Nothing ruins the perfect afternoon out on the sunny patio like a glass of warm wine and ice might seem like the only option, but it just waters down your wine. That's where Vochil comes in. Vochil is one of my favorite wine gadgets. It keeps your wine perfectly chilled in your own glass. No clunky metal tumblers, no ice cubes, just beautifully chilled wine, sip after sip. I don't drink wine in the summer without mine, and I've gotten all of my family and friends hooked as well. My mom used hers so much last year that one of her friends ended up getting one of her own as a Christmas gift. 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Go to us.vacuvin.com and use code corkandfizz for 20% off your first order. This episode is sponsored by Wine Wash Company, the brand that makes fun, functional gifts designed by a wine lover for wine lovers. I'm constantly using their silicone clips to keep my wine glasses safe in the dishwasher. And I can't get enough of their wine themed sponges with sayings like Let it Merlot and I like big pores and I cannot lie. Wine Wash company products are great for stocking stuffers. Unique gifts or a little treat for yourself any time of year. Get 20% off your order@WinewashCo.com with code CORK at checkout. Plus free US shipping on orders over$35. Yeah, so thief in the Night was when I left my previous employment. You know, it was like a bad divorce at the time. Everything's happy days now, but everyone was paranoid and everything. And I. I'd sort of been running the business and I was accused at the time of. I was trying. They were trying to bully me into restraints of trade. So I was accused at the time of stealing data and vineyard poles and all of this. So I got this dodgy lawyer's letter. And the lawyer's letter referred to me as a thief in the night. And while I was reading it, thinking what a load of horseshit, I thought, that's a great name for a wine. So we called the Wine Thief of the Night in honor of that stupid lawyer's letter. And it was just at the time when we had started bottling Grenache on its own. So I thought, stuff it. I'm going to call this wine Thief in the Night. And then Are we there yet? Is a. Is a wine we make from Turigonacional in Syrah. And that's not really that the name's not that original because it's just the vineyard is three and a half hours away. So it's the whole are we there yet? Story. We try to think of a name now for our new vineyard. And we've planted this, as I said, that very steep slope. And it's been an interesting journey because, you know, with the unpredictability of the weather. We had a landslide in that vineyard a couple of years ago. And, you know, we took a risk. You know, it's a duplex soil, so granite, so topsoil on clay. We had an abnormally wet winter and then we had 120 mils of rain dumped down in two hours at the end of winter and we lost 25% of the block. So we had to. It's a really crazy story I have to tell you. So it's like we had to get 400 cubes of soil back up the hill. And I'm no engineer, but we did it like, you know, farming plans. Figure the damn thing out. And I was thinking, who the hell am I going to get to help me do this? So we get this excavator operator with a 23 ton excavator and he rocks up there. And it's kind of like the first time in my life that I've actually wanted to give the oak a drink before he starts working. Because when you're operating in a slope like this, in a 23 ton excavator, you kind of caught. You need to have something to take the edge. And then I thought, now we've got a 25 ton bell dump truck that's rocking up to load the sword and carry it to the top of the hill. And I'm thinking this guy's got to reverse it up a road that's literally just like a few centimeters wider than this dump train. Up drives this Rastafarian with the longest dreads you've ever seen, smoking the biggest baseball bat. And I knew I was in good hands because he was so relaxed traversing up that hill. So in two weeks we fixed that block beautifully. And it's the coolest thing because it's one of the most extreme vineyards in South Africa. When you stand up there, like we've done all the. I know I tell stupid stories in that, but we genuinely do think about our stuff. You know, it's like we do all the research in terms of solar radiation, temperatures, wind, soils, all that kind of stuff. And it plays a role. But what really is for me the most important is if you stand there, does it feel good? And if it feels good, it's going to be good. Everything tells you analytically it's going to be good. But you stand there and you get a Bad feeling. You'll never make a great wine from that blog. So we genuinely believe we found something special. We're always on the prowl for another little, you know, site here and there, a landslide sort of scarred our bank account ever so slightly. So we had to, you know, again, once that was all fixed, you know, we had to take a little bit of a breather. But we're looking at a couple of new potential sites and, yeah, we have to see what happens. But that one, we're going to come up with something good, you know, because there's been a lot of drama in that block. So the name's going to be there. We're just not sure what it is yet. No, I can't wait. I'm definitely going to be keeping an eye on that one for what that name becomes. I love it. And this is perfect. It ties into the. One of the last questions for my little speed round, I call it. But talking about what's next for Savage Wine. So you're talking about starting this vineyard, but, you know, where do you see yourself five, ten years down the road? And, you know, are there any wines in particular that you're really excited to make or any regions in South Africa you're excited to, you know, get some. Get some grapes from? Yeah, so, look, I think that we are. I don't know, I'm fairly relaxed in general, but when it comes to our winery, it's like in our vineyards, everything's perfect. We strive every year to work harder and make and put more into the thing about. In your winery, you can go there and you can polish the stainless steel, you can scrub the floor, you can do all of that till your heart's content. It feels good when the place is clean, but it's not going to make the wines better. They might have less, you know, be at risk of a. Of a contamination or something, but it's not going to make the wines better. There is no limit to how much work you can do in your vineyard. I genuinely believe that. And we try as hard as possible to do everything we can to obviously not trying to push things too much because you still want the terroir to kind of show itself, but just trying to understand different canopies, you know, how we open canopies, you know, just all the timing of things, you know, it's. It's crazy. You can't always have a plan because nature dictates, but that's what keeps it interesting because every year is different. So we just constantly striving to get the Best out of our vineyards, find new sites. Again, like I said about that third date comment, we don't really even know, like, what is the best style we. We used to do on our Grenache in the early days, 70% whole cluster. We now only do 10% whole cluster. We used to do very little whole cluster on our sensor. We now use 70, 80%. Is it right? Have we found the sweet spot? The vintage is always different. So what is the sweet spot per vintage? So we just trying to do the best we can. We want consistency across the wines that someone who's buying a wine across any of our vintages can feel safe, that a bottle of Savage is going to give them consistency. And we want to promote South Africa and fly the flag and be part of this super cool journey that a whole bunch of us have really, like, been passionate about. And also, like, you know, I can't believe I'm saying this because I felt like as we spoke about young guns, you know, you don't. In your mind, I'm still, you know, you're still 21, but the body starts letting you down a bit, you know. But with the new generations coming through, my assistant winemaker, we're having a big dinner here tonight with a whole bunch of mates and my assistant winemaker, Barnell Vakhele, he's downstairs here now. He's taking, he's going off to now launch his own business. And it's super cool seeing the next generation so being part of, you know, mentoring people and helping and just trying to, you know, be part of this amazing journey that South African want at this point in time. I think, oh, that's all great. That's awesome. Okay, well, the last bit of the interview I do, I do it for everyone. It's called my speed round. It doesn't mean that you have to, like, off the bat, like, I'm asking for answers super fast. It's more like these questions, like you could think too long on them. So the idea is, first thing that comes to mind is what I'm looking for. So, for example, the first question is, what is your favorite wine at the moment? So obviously I can't say my own wine because they would be crazy. So. So Porcelainberg, Syrah or Shiraz from the Swartlands in South Africa, made by a great friend of mine, Cali Lowe. Porcelainberg is. It's a wine which is received. I know we shouldn't talk about scores and stuff, but it's, it's, it's received some very heavy accolades and it's one of those very deserving ones because the wine is just incredible. You know, just this anomaly of a slope in the Swartland in South Africa, and you pull a cork across those vintages and they just blow your mind. Fantastic wines. Porcelainberg. Yes. Okay. All right, I'm going to go away from the speed round really quick because I have a quick question for you. You've mentioned Shiraz and Syrah. Now, obviously these are the same grape. That's just what Australia, essentially in the US we think of Australia calls it Shiraz, and, you know, the French and everywhere else calls it Syrah. Is there a difference in South Africa, if you see Shiraz versus Syrah, is it a different style? Or we just say Cyril because it sounds a bit more schwanky? You know, it's like it's the only reason, really. No, that's fine. That's a totally fine answer. I was just curious because I realized you'd said both and then I. I was thinking about. Oh, yeah, South Africa primarily says Shiraz over Syrah. But then I wonder if in people's heads, that immediately would go to the big, bold, you know, Shiraz, which is the only type we get imported into the US right now from Australia. So it could potentially be also, like you said, like, it just kind of. It sounds swanky. It gives you a different idea of what Syrah from South Africa could be. People do associate Syrah with the more perfume and more elegant sort of style, but I don't understand that, you know, to a certain extent, because Syrah, Shiraz, it's the same thing. Yeah. You know, if you can, you can use different interpretations of the name and you can interpret the vineyards and the style also differently in the bottle. So personal preference. All right, thanks for indulging in that tangent. All right. What is a go to bottle of wine to bring to a dinner party or to share with friends? At the moment, I'm sort of super curious about anything from. From Piedmont in the northwest of Italy, because I'm super intrigued by the Italian tannin. I think that there's something about tannins in Italian wine, in particular Nebbiolo. It's so interesting. You know, those wines. For many years in the 60s and 70s, people used to, if they, if they bought wines from those producers, if they bought some Dolcetta and they bought a full case, the guys would like give them the Nebbiolo because they couldn't sell the stuff. But you look at what that's done to, you know, in modern times and how Great. Those wines are. And I'm just super intrigued by the tannin level. You know, these sort of wines that are perfume and quite light in color and just look in glass, but when you put them in your mouth, the power and the. And the tannin, and that is incredible. So I'm super intrigued because tannin management is a big thing for us here and how to interpret tannin, because, you know, a lot of people are. You're looking at color, nose, all that kind of stuff. And. And it's just something about that Italian tannin that's always intrigued me. So at the moment, I'm buying quite a lot of Italian wine. Cool. Okay. How about. What is your favorite wine region that you've ever visited? Oh, gc. We've had so many cool times. Look, I could say Burgundy, because you want to be. You want to sound profound, but actually it was Margaret river because we had such cooking waves. So, like, Margaret River, I have to say, we met so many cool guys there. We had some great wine experiences, some of the top people. And then we spent a whole week. People connected us up with friends. We served some of the most cooking waves that I've served in a long time in my. And it was just a fantastic visit. Yeah, that was a great answer. Okay. And then on the flip side, a wine region that you haven't been to that you'd like to visit. Piedmont, Piemonte. I don't understand. That makes sense. I've been to the northwest of Italy, but not for wine. We went a little family trip, and I sort of kind of like, promised my wife and kids that I wouldn't say it's kind of the rest of our lifetime is basically all we do. But I'd love to. I need to do a wine trip to that neck of the woods. I'll spend a bit of time in Italy, you know, in the south. Sicily as well, but. But not. But not there, you know, for wine. So I'm dying to do it. Yeah, no, I'm with you. I feel like every trip we take, my husband's probably sick of it at this point. They're all about wine for the most part. That's where I want to go. Okay, what is, like, your favorite go to wine and food pairing. It sounds stupid, but we have a thing in South. So South Africans love to make fire. If you come to South Africa, you'll experience, like, the. What we call the braai, which is a barbecue. So in Afrikaans, we say a braai fleece, and a braai is, you know, we don't make small. We don't make, you know, gas bras. I bought a house a little while back, and then a gas braai. Nearly didn't buy the house because it only had a gas bra. First thing I did was I took the gas bra out and threw it away and built the massive fireplace. And we love to make fire. And there's nothing like. And it's like, you know, when you look into fire. So I'm giving you the long answer, but, you know, when you look into fire, it just sort of, like, takes your mind. We call it the Bushman tv. You know, you just sort of stare into it. And when you cook our local sausage called budehwors, and you take it off the fire and it's been cooked, like, slightly underdone that it's all juicy because it's quite a fatty sausage. And that's with a little glass of Sunso or Chenin blanc. Amazing. Sounds delicious. I'm with you on the fire. I love. I love a good. A good bonfire, though. It is funny. Gas girls are way. Yeah, they're very common out here. More so than, you know, cooking over the fire. Okay, last question that I have for the speed round. What is one wine myth that bugs. You the most, a wine myth? I don't know. I think it's just in general, there's a lot of smoke and mirrors in the wine industry, and it's. There's a lot of bullshit. And I think that, you know, South Africans kind of call it like it is. You know, it's like, I could have sat here today and tell you how I plow with my horse, and we do this, and we wait for the moon to do that, and then we go and do that like so many other people do. But we don't, you know, and it's like we don't have. I don't even have a horse, and to be in it, they're expensive. You know, we've got a little walk behind machine. We put, you know, motorized backpacks. We use a tractor. We do things like that. But we try and do things like. And also the other thing, like organics, you know, everyone wants to say, oh, so actually, organics is the thing that drives me up the wall the most. Because everyone. The media tells people that organics is good, yet people don't understand the concept of it. So we've been farming most of our vineyards organic for many, many years. And we started looking at this and thinking about it, and the concept of organics tells you it's Fine. To spray lots of copper and you spray in contact, so you're spraying way more. So you're using three times more diesel and there's three times more compaction in the vineyard. But no one worries about that. As long as you're not spraying a ch, you can spray. You can. You consume as much diesel as you want. So that's kind of something which bugs me, I have to say. So we looking at what we say, more sustainable methods of farming, and that means more sustainable than organics, because organic is not sustainable, I personally believe. So we looking at different ways. South Africa, we're doing a lot of work with COVID crops. We're doing huge amount of work with mulching. You know, just looking at different ways of how we can manage things and also looking at different things we can spray to, you know, have less impact, obviously, on the vine, the environment and the soil. So, yeah, so I think. I think that the long and short is just, you know, there's, I think, a degree of honesty and authenticity is what people long for these days. You know, an element of real. I think is important. So that's very important for us. Yes. Yeah. And I think that's exactly why, like, I have people listening to this podcast, they love hearing from winemakers like you, because they learn all these things that, like, even if you took a wine course or even, you know, if you read a book on wine or, you know, you tried to learn a lot about wine, the best way, I think, to learn about it is from the people who make it, because those things like you just said about, you know, organically farmed vineyard, you would think that would mean very good things for the earth. And that's, you know, what you want. But I've. I've heard the same thing from. We saw Winemaker up in Beaujolais when I visited France last year, and he said he's looking to no longer farm organically because they sprayed copper like 11 or 12 times that year. Yeah. You know, and he's like, that's just not. That's not sustainable. That's not. That's not actually good for the vines. So. But. All right, well, that is everything I have. Thank you again so much for joining me, especially after a long day in the vineyard. I really appreciate it. Well, thank you for having a dodgy South African on your. On your podcast. I hope you get some listeners. No, I have a feeling this is going to be very enjoyable. This is exactly what the podcast is for. If we just talked, like you said, straight wine, you know, nothing fun. It wouldn't be enjoyable. So this is a very, very fun interview. Thanks again for joining us. Thank you for taking an interest in South Africa. And if all the and all the listeners just please go out and try something South African and if ever you come to try the opportunity to come to South Africa, I know it's a long distance flight and all that, but you know the South African Rand for every dollar you can get 17 and a half South African rands. So life is cheap when you're here and you would be blown away by the beauty of this place. So yeah, come and come and visit us. The perfect pitch. We'll end on that. Awesome. Thank you so much. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. You can learn more about Savage Wines. Actually the best place to visit them is their webpage on broadbent.com so if you do Savage Wine South Africa, just as a Google search, that will likely be one of the first things that pop up. And that website shares more about the different wines that Duncan makes. You can also find them on Instagram at Savage Wines and I highly recommend, just as Duncan said, try some of his wine. They do import into the US hopefully. I believe they also import into Canada as well and many other places around the world. Ask your small winemaker if they can talk to their distributor and see if they can get some Savage Wine in for you to try. And if you can't get Savage Wine, any South African, new South African, African wine that is, you know, unique and being made by small producers is a great thing to ask for. If you love this episode as much as I did, I'd love it if you could take a quick second to rate it and leave a review. And if you know a wine lover in your life that would enjoy this, please share it with them in next week's episode. I'm teaching you how to talk like a sommelier. I walk you through 15 wine tasting words that will have you confidently talking about wine. Thanks again for listening. And if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me at Cork and Fizz on Instagram. Cheers.