The People & Stories Behind Your Wine Glass w/ Heather Daenitz (Part 1)

Ep 150

What does it really look like behind those beautiful wine photos you see online?

In this episode, I’m joined by Heather Daenitz, a wine industry photographer and marketing strategist based in Santa Barbara wine country. Heather shares how she went from studying viticulture and working in vineyard management to launching her business, Craft & Cluster, where she now helps small wineries connect with their audiences through authentic behind-the-scenes photography and marketing strategies.

Heather shares what harvest actually feels like at 3 a.m., why grapes are picked at night, and the reality behind those dreamy sunrise vineyard shots. She also dives into why she chooses to work with small wineries, what consumers often misunderstand about wine pricing, and how many hands touch the wine before it reaches your glass.

So, if you are ready to see your glass of wine with a little more context and a lot more appreciation then this episode is for you.

Thank you to our exclusive sponsor, Last Bottle, for sponsoring this episode. Go to www.lastbottlewines.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 10% off your order! (And be sure to sign up for their mailing list so you never miss a bottle!)

Connect with Heather:

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/craftandcluster

The Wine Marketing Field Guide - https://www.winemarketingfieldguide.com/

Pour Memories Podcast - https://www.pourmemories.com/

Episode Highlights:

• How Heather found her way into wine
• From vineyard work to wine photography
• How Craft and Cluster began
• Why small wineries need marketing support
• What harvest at 3 a.m. really looks like
• Why grapes are picked at night
• The reality behind romantic wine photos
• The people behind every bottle
• Why wine costs what it does

Transcript

0:00

If you love wine but hate overpaying, listen up. Today's sponsor, Last Bottle Wines, drops one deeply discounted sommelier-picked wine every single day. I'll tell you why I'm obsessed later in the episode, but for now, head to lastbottlewines.com and use code CORKANDFIZZ for 10% off. Interested in learning about wine but not sure where to start? You're in the right place. Welcome to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine Podcast. I'm your host, Haley Bollman, and I'm so glad you're here. I'm a wine enthusiast turned wine educator and founder of the Seattle-based wine tasting business Cork and Fizz. It is my goal to build your confidence in wine by making it approachable. And lots of fun. You can expect to learn everything from how to describe your favorite wine to what to pair with dinner tonight and so much more. Whether you're a casual wine sipper or. A total cork dork like myself, this. Podcast is for you. So grab yourself a glass and let's dive in. Hello and welcome back to the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. I have a very fun interview episode for you today. I am introducing you to Heather Danitz. Heather is a wine industry photographer and marketing strategist based in Santa Barbara wine country. Through her business Craft and Cluster, she helps small wineries connect with their audience through authentic behind-the-scenes photography and marketing strategy. She is also the 2025 Wine Photographer of the Year in the Food Photographer of the Year Awards, and it is so well deserved. Her photos are absolutely phenomenal. Heather is also the writer and the host of the Wine Marketing Field Guide, a newsletter and podcast dedicated to practical, direct-to-consumer wine marketing for busy wine professionals. I've been following Heather on social media for so long now, probably since I started Cork and Fizz. I love her insights both in marketing. I've learned a lot even though I'm not a winery. I'm kind of— I'm adjacent to that. World, but also just in the wine world in general. I honestly can't believe this is the. First time inviting her to the show, but hey, better late than never, right? So without further ado, let's get into the interview. Hi, how are you? I'm great, how are you? Doing pretty good, excited to do this. But yeah, let's dive in. One of my favorite questions to start the podcast with, with any wine enthusiast, wine lover person in the wine world. What made you fall in love with wine? Yeah, I mean, my journey into wine is a bit circuitous. You know, my family sort of loosely drank wine. My dad and grandparents would have wine with dinner and would occasionally like, you know, allow me to sip on it and stuff like that. But I don't think I really fell in love with wine until I sort of started pursuing it as a career. I had original ambitions of being a photojournalist, and so that's what I started going to school for. But I was going to school down in the LA area and found that I just like wasn't super into the energy of, of the art scene, the photography scene in the LA County area, Pasadena specifically. It just didn't feel as welcoming. And I'm a, you know, a little bit of a sensitive bunny rabbit, and so I was like, I want to find a career that's a little bit more collaborative, a little bit more friendly. And so my sister was going to Cal Poly San Luis Obispo at the time for animal science. And so I would go up on the weekends and visit her cuz it was only like a, you know, like 2.5, 3-hour drive to go see her. And she basically was like, you need to get your shit together, figure it out. Here's a catalog for Cal Poly and you can kind of just like go shopping for majors. And so I was flipping through the catalog and I got to the very back and saw wine and viticulture and I was like, you can do that? Like, that's a career that you can have? Because up until then, I just assumed that everybody who worked in wine was like born into it. I had never worked in food before, so I'd never worked in restaurants or anything like that. I'd only ever worked in like retail before. And, and so I just didn't, I didn't know, like I just didn't know what I didn't know. And so I was, I started looking into that and when I turned 21, I applied for a, you know, tasting room job just to see what I was getting myself into. And, you know, after several people did not hire me, I ended up getting hired at Foxen Winery in Santa Maria. And I just like immediately fell in love. I was like, I fell in love with the people, mostly the people. I mean, that's really, I think what wine is, it's, it's nothing without the people around it. Like, I'm sure people enjoy wine on their own. I certainly have, but like, I think it's best enjoyed with people and hearing their stories and like understanding kind of where wine comes from and all that. And so yeah, that's sort of the long story of how I came to, came to really love wine. And, and it was because my sister told me to get my shit together one day. I love it. Gotta love sisters, right? Thank you. Thank you, Laura. She knew how to big sister me for sure. I love it. And I hope too, like everyone I talk to, it's so funny cuz there are very few people who like get into wine because they were just like born into it. At least the people that I'm interviewing on this show, so many come in via like another avenue of like they started here and then they ended up there. So it's interesting now too, when I look at what you do, right? So you wear so many hats. You're a photographer, storyteller, strategist, marketing consultant. You know, can you kind of take us through the journey of how you went from, you know, starting in that tasting room to now what you're doing? I know I'm asking you to summarize a lot, but— Yeah, I know. I know every time I get asked this question, I'm like, how can I condense this into a shorter story? Because I do, you know, I'm a long-winded person in general, but I also just feel like this story sort of, as I mentioned before, long and circuitous and all that. So I'll do my best to sort of distill it down to like the important parts. You kind of already heard about like sort of how I how I initially got into wine. And so when I was working for Foxen, I, you know, had ambitions of becoming a winemaker. And so I was pursuing wine and viticulture as, as a degree. I ended up moving up to Oregon to go to Oregon State University. And by then, by the time I got into Oregon State University, I sort of found, and, and this was sort of through Billy Wathen, who's the winemaker for Foxen. He encouraged me not just to focus on the winemaking side. He was like, I need you to go learn about the vineyards because Otherwise, you are only gonna be half a winemaker if you do choose to become a winemaker. And so I, you know, so I went to Oregon State University. My degree that I ultimately ended up getting was horticulture, which is an emphasis on viticulture and enology, so the vineyard side of things. And as I was doing that, I was like, I think I like the vineyard side a little bit more. I think this is really a little bit more for me. And so after moving back from Oregon, I came back and worked for Foxen again because they just can't seem to get rid of me. And again, while working with Billy Wathen, he was like, listen, like I don't have enough vineyard work for you to really thrive here. And he is like, so I'm gonna get you in touch with my friends over at Coastal Vineyard Care. They provide most of, like, quite a lot of the fruit that we source for our wine. So get in contact with them, talk to them, and they might have a position for you. And so I reached out to their PCA, their pest control advisor, Shannon Gluthill, and just started talking to her, shadowing her a little bit. And then one day she was like, hey, we just had a position open up and we need you to fill it. Like, we'd love for you to fill it. Like, you have the qualifications, you have the drive, you're like very clearly curious, which is really important in this, you know, in this role. And so I started working for, for Coastal Vineyard Care, and it was while I was working for Coastal Vineyard Care, they were like, hey, you know, in like the 0.01% of your time that's free, with us, because I was working with like 3 different departments. Yeah. I was working with grape sales, I was working with the tech department, like downloading weather station data, and then I was also working with Shannon in the pest control advisory department. And so like I was doing all these things and she was like, yeah, like, you know, in your free time, which we know you have a lot of, which I didn't, they're like, can you start social media for us? Because nobody knows what a vineyard management company does, like we could use a little bit of messaging around that. So could you help us with that? And I was like, yeah, that sounds like fun. You know, I had a camera from my previous ambitions of wanting to be a photojournalist. And so I started taking it out with me into the field when I was, you know, doing my rounds. So I would go download weather station data, and as I was doing that, I'd have to stand there for like 5, 10 minutes waiting for this information to download. And so I just took that 5, 10 minutes and just started taking pictures of whatever I was seeing. It was, at first it was a lot of insects because that was also kind of like what I was looking for. So like really interesting insects or just kind of like the seasons that we were in and things like that. And then I started purposely going out and photographing what the vineyard crews were up to and, you know, are they leaf pulling today? Are they shoot thinning? Like, what are they doing today? And then during harvest time, they also had me kind of lumped into also doing weighing fruit for some of our more complicated vineyards. So, um, we had a couple of vineyards that had some really complicated, um, they're really big and they had lots of complicated things going on. And so I would go out, bring my camera with me when I was like weighing fruit. And like when you're weighing fruit, you're kind of just like waiting for the fruit to arrive. And it's usually like 15, 20, 30 minutes between loads. And so., I would just be sitting there in the dark waiting for, for. Fruit to arrive, you know, at like. 5 in the morning or whatever. And so then I would just like go wander around until I saw the fruit come down. I would take pictures and yeah. And so I started an Instagram account for them and, you know, the wineries that were purchasing fruit from them started noticing and they were like, hey, who's doing your social media? We really like what they're doing. And one client in particular, Brave and Maiden, they reached out and they were like, hey, can you do like what you're doing for them? Can you do that for us? Because that would be really great. And because I had a non-compete clause in my, in my contract, I couldn't do that while I was working for the vineyard management company. And so eventually, you know, I'll wind this story up with basically saying that I had an opportunity to leave my full-time job and start Craft and Cluster, and which is my, my business. And, and so I did that in 2019 and Brave and Maiden was my very first client. And it's just been, yeah, 6 years, almost 7 years of amazingness. So I love how it came full circle of like, you were like, photojournalism was something you initially kind of wanted to do. And then I didn't realize you had gone to school and like you had planned to like become a winemaker or to, you know, work more in the making of the wine. Was it a hard decision to kind of like, I feel like at that point when Brave and Maiden reached out to you and were like, hey, can you do this for us? What kind of went through your head? Or was it a difficult decision to kind of like, it felt like it was like there were two paths you could choose. You could keep going down the route. With Coastal Vineyards, kind of go the route of learning more the vineyard and becoming vineyard manager, or, you know, work along those lines. Or you could take it and kind of go this more social media photojournalism kind of route. What were, what were you kind of thinking with that? Yeah, it had kind of— so I should say, like, I have ADHD, and so I like to do different things. I like to have lots of, like, I like to have my fingers in lots of pies because it just keeps me interested. And I think that's one of the things I love about about the wine industry is that you can really do anything, like, and you, your day could look different day to day, which is really lovely. And, and so when Brave Maiden reached out, my first thought was, I wonder if there's a way that I can make this work while I'm doing Coastal Vineyard Care stuff, because I liked doing what I was doing. By that time, you know, in, in late, or in, in 2018, we had had a new CFO come in and she was my mentor., and it was very cool because I had never really like seen a woman in a role like that before who was like literally running the company and make, you know, and like telling all these like men like what to do. And I was like, I like you. I wanna be like you when I grow up, you know? And, and so I went to her and I was like, hey, so there's this opportunity that came up. Like, is there a way that we can make this work? Because, you know, she, she had taken lots of chances on me. She had since promoted me to the compliance manager, which some might argue is not a promotion, but I like, you know, I liked, I liked what I was doing. I was dealing with lots of spreadsheets and organization and stuff, but I was also helping with like the sustainable and organic certifications, which was really also really fun for me and interesting. And I wanted to keep doing that because I like, you know, I like, I like vineyards. I like doing what I, what I do. And I, I didn't like think that there was, I didn't think that there was a path for me to do. Photography and marketing and stuff as like a business. Like I just, it just never occurred to me. I knew that those existed, but I was just, it was just something that was just like not in my head. And so Frankie, who I was working with, she was like, you know, she's like, well, like we can't let you do that because that would take away from your work with us. And she's like, but let me think about it and see if there's like a way that we can make this work. And, and then, you know, like December. December 2018, January 2019, she kind of came back to me and she was like, okay, she's like, listen, like you have something here. And she's like, I think you would be really, really silly to not take advantage of it because like that you have proof of concept. Like you clearly have people who, like you already have at least one person who is willing to hire you for this. And I know that there are other wineries out there who would also be willing to pay, pay you for these types of services. You have something here. And I was just like, okay. And I had a, you know, I had a handful of friends who I'd been taking photos for, for like, you know, like headshots and things like that for articles that they were being featured in. 'Cause you know, like when you work in wine, most of your friends end up being wine people as well. And so, you know, I was like, I say that, I'm like, I feel like I'm bragging when I'm like, all my friends are winemakers. It's like, they're not. I mean, but they're, you know, a lot of them are, but to answer your question, to get back to the meat of it, is I didn't really think about it until other people started being like, this is like, you have, there's something going on here. You're clearly good at it. You clearly enjoy it. And maybe there's another way that you can sort of find a, find a way to stick with like the vineyard management stuff, but at a smaller scale in a way that you actually enjoy and, and all that. And so, so yeah, so I like started Craft and Cluster and then in like a few months, I was getting folks reaching out to me asking if I could help them with their SIP certifications, their sustainability and practice certifications. And so I do that. That's sort of like a just for funsies on the side kind of thing. I don't really like advertise that I do that, but it's, yeah, I basically just help them go through the paperwork and like give them recommendations on like who they can reach out to for well water testing and stuff like that because I had that extensive contact list when I was working with Coastal. And so. Yeah, so it just like worked out really nicely that I'm able to sort of, yeah, like have my cake and eat it too. Yes. Yeah. Like you get to keep a little bit of the, the old you and what you enjoyed, but you also got, I love that you got pushed a little bit into doing, you know, Craft and Cluster and to be like, hey, take that. I know it's scary and I really love having you here, but also you should go try that. Those are like the best people that are willing to not only mentor you in a way that helps them, but mentor you more so in a way that helps you and willing to, you know, give you up in that, in. That sense of things. Yeah. Yeah. I was very lucky to have somebody like Frankie who, who is just, yeah, she just took a chance on me in so many, in so many ways and then was just like, listen, like you have something here. I think you'd, you'd be happier doing this. And, and she was right. I, you know, like I liked my job at Coastal. I love what I do now. I just, yeah, I can't imagine doing anything else. I love it. Okay. So I know we talked a lot about, you said a lot of wine is about the people, right? And I have a feeling that might be part of the answer to the next question, but when working in Craft and Cluster, you primarily focus on, or only focus on like smaller wineries. What is it that drew you to smaller wineries? Because I feel like you could do social media and the work that you're doing for larger wineries. You're not, you know, it's not the only option. So what drew you to the. Smaller wineries? Who doesn't want incredible wine for a steal? Today's podcast is brought to you by Last Bottle Wines, a Napa Valley-based online wine shop with a super fun twist. Some of the best bottles I've ever opened, AKA the ones my friends still talk about to this day, came from Last Bottle. And I love when they say, this. Is incredible, and I get to reply, yep. And it's usually an $80 wine. I only paid $25. At Last Bottle Wines, they offer just one handpicked wine per day until it sells out. New day, new wine. It's like a fun little daily surprise. And the deals? Wild. We're talking 30 to 80% off retail, so you can try amazing bottles without the scary price tag. Their team tastes hundreds of wines every week, so you know what you see is worth grabbing. There's no subscription, no minimums, and free. Ground shipping when you buy 6 or more bottles. Use code CorkandFizz for 10% off and go see today's wine. At lastbottlewines.com. I think it's mostly that it's what I know. You know, I, I worked for Foxen Winery. They make less than, you know, on a, on a really, really good high yield year, they're making less than 15,000 cases. On average, they're making maybe less than 10,000 cases a year. You know, when I was up in Oregon, I worked for a teeny tiny, like postage stamp of winery called Spindrift. And they were like, I don't know, maybe 3,000 cases. Like they were teeny tiny. I did briefly work for Willamette Valley Vineyards, which is a bigger winery up in, in the Willamette Valley. They make about 100,000 cases a year, at least when I was working there. They maybe make more, they maybe make less, but sort of even with, with Willamette Valley Vineyards, yeah, they're publicly traded, they make a bunch of wine, whatever, but they also like have smaller operations within their winery. And the winery is run like a small winery. So you are really getting to know the people behind the bar in the winery. It was a very, it felt very close and tight-knit, and they did their best to sort of make all the departments talk to each other, which I find isn't always the case for larger wineries. And so it's not, it's not that I have anything against larger wineries. It's just that it's the small wineries are what I know. And the small wineries are the people that need my help the most. You know, like they're the ones that, you know, they, they don't usually have marketing departments. They don't usually have creative departments. Usually the people who are running their social media are also the people who are like cleaning the toilets and making the wine and doing the payroll and being the HR and, you know, So these people, they need me and I'm so happy to help them because it's just, they have, I think they have, not always, but usually they have more interesting stories as well. And they care. They care so much about the wine that they're making and they really like agonize over it. Like it's like they, it keeps them up at night, you know, they like thinking about like how their wine's gonna be received and like, you know, oh no, is the weather gonna completely fuck with our harvest this year. Like, what are we going to do? You know, like it's, and I want to help them. I want to help them do better and reach more people because they deserve it. Like they deserve to have more, you know, eyes on their products and eyes on them. And, you know, yeah, they deserve to sell out of their wine every single year. And I just think that the larger wineries don't really need me as much. There are other people that can do that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I feel like, and they have like those stories to tell, like when you, you know, when you say those things of like, You know, they're agonizing over, you know, what will, you know, the weather be like if there are storms in the forecast, or they're thinking about as they go to bed, did they choose the right blend for, you know, their next, you know, vintage. And it's so nice, I think, for like a lot of just like typical wine consumers wouldn't realize that that went. Into the bottle and all of those. Things, and the winemakers are thinking about that. So I think it's great to tell those stories. I do want to jump into just a little bit, just because I'm curious on the photography side. So I know that's connected to the social media and the marketing and everything, but I'm curious, I know in harvest you are crazy busy and your days are like insane. Can you kind of paint a picture for us? What does a typical day look like if you're doing a shoot during harvest? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I learned my lesson early on. I learned my lesson my first year to only book one photo shoot a day during harvest. I am also a yes person, and so people can often talk me into multiple shoots in a single day. Yeah, but a typical harvest day, if I'm being good and I'm not saying yes to too many things and overstretching myself, I will wake up in the morning. Typically I'll wake up around like

3 or 3: 22:11

30 in the morning and then I'll get on the road depending on where the winery is. So if it's, you know, if it's Foxen, it's only, you know, Foxen's only like 20 minutes away from me, so it's just a, you know, hop, skip, and a jump over there. But if it's Paso Robles, it's like an hour or more. So I'll get on the road and I'll usually get to the winery or the vineyard rather before the sun comes up. So I like to spend, again, this is something that I've learned over the years of doing this. I like to only spend about like an hour maybe when it's dark photographing in the vineyards because after about 30 minutes, all of those photos start looking the same and it's really, really hard to differentiate between one winery and another during a night harvest because it's, you can't see the topography, you can't really see You know, like there's really not too much branding. And so really trying to focus on the people, hopefully the winemakers out there with me so I can get photos of them, you know, in the vineyard and stuff like that. So we can sort of establish a sense of brand, a sense of identity versus this sort of like anonymous dark, whatever. And then the sun will come up and I'll get some sunrise photos of the vineyard. And then sometimes it depends again on the situation because there's so much variability here, but typically wineries have been picking since like sometimes midnight, sometimes 3 in the morning. And I'm only, I'm getting there for like the last like 2 hours of picking. So I'm there, like I'm getting there when they're all tired and they do not wanna see me. They're like, the last thing they wanna see is this like photographer out there, you know? So I'll, you know, photograph the night portion of it, the blue hour, which is like that time between, you know, like dawn and, and sunrise. And so, and then I'll get a little bit of sunrise and then I'll kind of stick around. The idea is that I'll end up following the fruit from the vineyard to the winery. And then by the time I get to the winery, I'll take like a little bit of a break and like, you know, maybe somebody brought donuts, maybe I brought donuts and we'll all eat donuts together. And then the winery crew will start processing the fruit. So I'll photograph the, like if they're destemming, if it's like a red wine, they'll, I'll photograph the destemming. If it's like a white wine or a rosé, I'll photograph them pressing. And then if it's like further, if it's far enough along into the season, I could also get some like punch-downs and pump-overs and things like that. So some of the other things that come with harvest, you know, that, that typically happens like later in the season or like kind of mid-season. So yeah, so it's, it's typically that, like go to the vineyard at night. Get night photos, get sunrise photos, follow the fruit down to the winery, get the winery working out. And sometimes I'll be there long enough to have lunch with them, which is really fun. My clients are all super awesome. They always end up feeding me, which is just the most amazing thing. And that's always really, really fun too. I really love being there for those like kind of team culture moments when like the wineries are having lunch or they're having breakfast together, they're having coffee together. And they're laughing and, you know, like they're having a good time and they're like sharing a glass of wine or a bottle of wine over lunch or whatever. And it's just like, it's really special to, you know, kind of feel a little bit part of the team. I think that's another reason that I like working with smaller wineries is that they're a little bit more, they're a little less buttoned up, I would say. And they're able to like, kind of like wrap me in their arms and bring me into the fold. And that's really just really special. So. Yeah, I feel like that's probably really nice, especially as like a small business of like feeling like you're part of. A bigger team a lot of the. Time versus like, you know, it is a business. I know your husband's worked with you a few times and done like that, but when it's kind of just you, it can get a little lonely. So it's nice to be part of a big team. Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love to gossip. So it's really nice. And I do kind of miss the like watercooler moments of working for somebody else. And so, yeah, so it's, it is a way for me to sort of like get my fix. I'm like, tell me like what's going on? Who's mad at who? Like spill the tea. I wanna know. Yeah. I love it. Okay. Are there any like misconceptions you feel like people have about those like beautiful wine photos that they see online? I don't know. I mean, I think people think that it's beautiful all the time and it's certainly beautiful. I mean, like we don't grow grapes in ugly places, just straight up, like every, like it's gorgeous and I will be the first person to romanticize the hell out of wine. But there are times when it's really fucking hard and like they don't want me there. Like there, it's like, you know, they know that they need me there because they hired me and they paid the money and they know that it's ultimately gonna be, it's gonna help them market their wine and, and all that. But you know, they're tired. They've been up since 2, 3 in the morning. They've been working since 2, 3 in the morning. You know, they're hungry, they're tired, they're just like, you know, everything's happening and they're thinking about things all at once and it's stressful. And, and it's also, it's a dirty job, like, and it's a little bit of a thankless job too. It's like, you know, there's so many things that people will see this like beautiful vista view sunrise photo and what they don't realize is like, Literally like 10 minutes before that, I had to like go to the bathroom in a porta-potty. Or there was a coyote out and there, you know, and there's nature is happening and, and it's kind of intense over there. Or like there's a bunch of yellow jackets like flying around me because it's the middle of the season and, you know, and so I'm trying to be cool and like, you know, so there's, there's like things that are happening behind the scenes with the winery, you know, with the winemakers, with the vineyard crews that are really intense and, and kind of scary sometimes and dirty and messy. And it's exhausting. And, and then, and yet we're still able to like create these beautiful photos because we grow grapes in beautiful places. My goal with my photos particularly is to do my best to show what's really going on. So to show the hard parts, but in a way that's maybe like a little bit more palatable for the average consumer because like, you know, the, the consumer doesn't wanna see like people doing paperwork. They don't wanna see, you know, they don't wanna see the like torn up, like bloody kneecaps from like tripping in the vineyard. You know, they don't wanna see that, but they do wanna know that it's hard work, I find. And so like showing the night harvest, I think that has like a huge impact on consumers is like, they're like, oh my God. Like I think they don't realize that grapes have to be, at least in California where it's hot during the fall and the summer, grapes have to be picked at night. They just have to be in order for the fermentations to be healthy. And in order to get things done and also to like keep our farm workers safe because it's hot, it's hot and we don't want them working in the heat, you know? And so it's cool at night and so we pick at night. And so I think that has a huge impact on consumers because they're like, oh, like while I was sleeping, you were making this wine. Yeah. I don't know. No, I think that was great. I think that's a good way to put it. I think we very, very much, the. Wine world does a good job of. Romanticizing itself and Very much feeling, because there is like, once the wine's in the bottle, you know, it feels very, I call it hoity-toity a lot of the time, you know, there's this like fancy element to it. And you have to remember that like, no, this was made by a farmer, you know, this was made by people out in the vines and they had. To pick the grapes. And the thing I always think of. When I'm always like, it would be. Kind of cool to work a harvest as someone who's interested in wine. And then I think of the yellow jackets and I go, mm, maybe not so much. Like, I'll just keep enjoying the wine. Yeah. Yeah. It's, It's a whole thing. I mean, I think like, you know, I, I forget the average, but let's just say at least 20 hands have touched the wine that you are drinking. You know, that's the thing that I like to think about too when I'm having wine. Like, you know, I, I had the pleasure of drinking a birth year Riesling, 1989 Riesling, and all I could think about the entire time I was having it was like, this wine was picked the year I was born. Like, I was 6 months old when these people were out in the field harvesting these grapes. And then somebody, like a tractor driver, drove them to the winery. And then the winery workers, you know, they processed the fruit and maybe they like actually, you know, they hand pull, you know, like destemmed these or like maybe they all, you know, like they stepped on that. Like maybe they like, you know, like Maybe they did all of these things and I just like thinking about, I'm like, there was so much work that went into this wine that I get to just sit here in this fancy dress in this fancy restaurant and drink. And it's just like, it's such a wild dichotomy to me to like think about like what went into this wine. And I hope that my photography kind of helps the average consumer realize that, you know, like especially when we're talking about like pricing of wine, which I think is a hot topic and I understand like, You know, we wanna make wine accessible for people who maybe don't have the means to purchase a $50 bottle of wine. And at the same time, I'm like, that wine is worth every single penny because it's such hard work. It's so expensive to make. So yeah, it's, it's a whole thing. Yes. No, I love that. I feel the same way about wine. I think that's why I think it's so, so incredible is everything that goes into the bottle and then you just get to drink it. Right. And especially, yeah, wines that are from like parts of the world that I'm like, I'll probably never visit this place, you know, in my life, but I get to have a wine from here. Or, you know, older wines where you're like, I was just born, or I've had one that's older than me. And it's like, I wasn't even alive when they picked the grapes. Like how— it's. So cool. Hope you enjoyed this episode of the Cork and Fizz Guide to Wine podcast. If you'd like to connect with Heather, see her beautiful photographs, and continue learning from her, you can find her on Instagram @craftandcluster. If you're a wine professional or just genuinely curious, you can also subscribe to her Substack at winemarketingfieldguide.com. It's free to subscribe and her articles are always incredibly insightful. I am a subscriber myself. And while it's currently on hold, you can also find a few episodes of her podcast, Pour Memories, P-O-U-R, Pour Memories, that she does with her friend Kristin at pourmemories.com. If you love this episode as much. As I did, I'd love it if. You could take a quick second to rate it, leave a review. As we mentioned during this episode, reviews. Really mean a lot to anybody that you're writing a review for, and that. Is no different with me. And if you know a wine lover in your life that would enjoy this episode, please share it with them. And if you'd like to show additional support for the show, you can become a paid subscriber. Click the link in the show notes and become a monthly supporter for $10. Or less a month. This is not required. All of these episodes are available to you free, including my entire backlog. But if you wanted to show some more support, you can do that. You'll get a shout out in the next episode I record. Plus, if you choose the $10 per month option, you'll get to choose a topic for a future episode. In next week's episode, you'll hear part 2 of my interview with Heather, where we talk about how you can support small wineries beyond just buying a bottle, her thoughts on non-alcoholic wine— since at the time of recording, we were actually both pregnant— and so much more. Thanks again for listening. And if you want to learn more about wine, come follow me at Cork and Fizz on Instagram. Cheers!