Profitable Painter Podcast
Profitable Painter Podcast is a rich resource for anyone interested in starting, running, and scaling a professional painting business, offering valuable insights, strategies, and interviews with industry leaders. Through case studies and in-depth discussions, we deliver a vivid picture of the painting industry, with a disclaimer that any financial or tax information is general and not a substitute for professional advice.
Profitable Painter Podcast
Paint, Profits, and People: The Secret Sauce of Growth
In this episode of The Profitable Painter, host Daniel Honan sits down with Zach Guthrie, a painting business owner from Buffalo, New York, who has grown his company from a solo venture into a thriving operation with two full-time crews and seasonal expansion.
Zach shares the real-world challenges he faced in the early days, juggling roles, setting up his LLC, handling taxes, and managing manpower, and how he overcame them by investing in team culture and leadership. Learn how creating camaraderie among workers, recognizing achievements, and structuring roles like project managers and foremen have transformed his company’s efficiency and profitability.
Zach also dives into hiring strategies, compensation plans for sales and production staff, and the importance of aligning incentives across the business. Whether you’re just starting your painting business or looking to scale efficiently, this episode is packed with practical advice on how to grow a committed team, retain top talent, and ultimately boost your bottom line.
On August 5th 2025, I’m hosting a free, live webinar revealing:
✅ How to pay way less in taxes—legally
✅ The simple ratio top painting businesses use to grow profits fast
✅ What the top 20% of painters are doing differently
Go to BookkeepingForPainters.com/Webinar to register now!
Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the show where painting contractors learn how to boost profits, cut taxes and build a business that works for them. And I'm your host, daniel Honan, cpa and former painting business owner, and your guide to mastering your numbers that drive success. So let's dive in and make your business more profitable, one episode at a time. I'm super excited. Today I'm going to talk to Zach Guthrie out of New York. Super excited, welcome to the podcast, zach. How's it going?
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you, yeah, happy to be here. It's going real good.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So could you kind of just give us your journey in the painting industry, Like how did you get started? What are some major milestones that you've seen since you've been running your painting business?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. So I have been in business going on six years. It was a start. Like most started working at a painting company it was actually a buddy of mine and I just saw the opportunity in the industry. It really stuck out to me the market share that was available in this industry and I knew I could make a difference here.
Speaker 1:Okay. So you got started about six years ago with a friend and then you kind of got like, hey, I could probably do this on my own. What made you make that jump? Because for a lot of folks that's kind of a big jump to working for somebody else to hey, I'm going to do this on my own.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and I've always had an entrepreneurial spirit. I was into business before this, just in different industries, and when I started working with my buddy it was a friend of mine just looking for some extra work. I enjoyed doing it. Just looking for some extra work, I enjoyed doing it. I saw the opportunity I wanted to continue to build with him. Obviously I just went in the direction of going on my own and doing it that way, which I am happy I did so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know starting up your own business, especially painting business, can be very difficult. What sort of challenges did you face in the first year or two?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, and that's the one thing about running a business, and especially a painting business, is it's always putting out fires, and the beginning fires are obviously the harder ones. You're just learning and luckily we've been able to learn from those and adapt Some of the earlier stage ones. I would say basic setting up things, getting the LLC started, waiting on all that to come back? Manpower I started off by myself doing the painting myself, keeping track of the books, taxes, all of the important stuff. Then getting into more different types of insurances. It was a lot in the beginning.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're wearing all the hats. It's like you got to be the finance person. You got to be the operations person. You got to be the marketing person. You got to do everything and it's super tough, especially in that zero to 350 range. Yes, so, in a lot of like very successful entrepreneurs it's you mentioned manpower. Like very successful entrepreneurs it's you mentioned manpower and that's like the like, the key to really grow your business is is to to get other folks to, to buy in with your vision and to help you get to the next level. So how did you crack that nut? Like what? What did you learn about finding and recruiting and hiring good people and getting them into your organization?
Speaker 2:So for in the beginning stages when we were learning about the culture, it was the same as what you were mentioning. I was like what's the difference between the culture of this company and this company? And really trying to dial in, what that meant to me was just the little things. Our Sherwin rep last year they gave us tickets to an NHL game and we were able to take our guys to that. Build the camaraderie between the guys taking breaks together, having annual parties, hosting those and just really looking out for each other. You know, if I could tell someone's down or something I'm asking them questions, you could tell they really care to look out for each other and it's more family oriented which when we have new guys come in, they want to be a part of that.
Speaker 1:Mm. Hmm, no, that's. That's great, like building that camaraderie and being like as much of a close knit organization as possible. It can have like massive impact on the organization. It can have like massive impact on the organization Plus the. The bonus there is that those events that you mentioned a lot of them can be tax deductions. You know, like if you have a regular annual company event where you, your team, comes, you're maybe doing barbecue, you're going through goals, you know you pay for everyone's food. It doesn't have to be you to be at a fancy hotel or anything, it could be literally in your backyard but you could still deduct all the costs of paying for everything. So building that culture but also getting tax deductions through that, that's a big thing that I think a lot of folks don't realize. They can use those events to make their business better, have some fun, build some relationships with your team, but also lower your taxes.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and just to touch on that a bit, we also like to recognize individual and that just points on the camaraderie right there. You know they're always looking out for each other. It's just it's really nice to see and and I could see why they like to buy into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. What sort of results have you cause? I'm sure this was like a learning process for um for you and it always is for for everyone. But, like, what results have you seen since you've been kind of focused on the culture and building that camaraderie on your team? You know, could could you kind of highlight, like, what was it like before on your team and then what is it like now when you're more focused on it?
Speaker 2:So it was definitely a revolving door before we started implementing some of those culture vibes with our company. It was a lot of hiring, firing or hiring and then quitting, going to the next place. A lot of they would leave for a dollar raise, whereas opposed to now, it's people stay because they see the value in staying here as opposed to someone who's just trying to pick them up quickly. Not saying that that happens all the time, but it's just little things like that that I could see a change in. Uh, in terms of people sticking around for longer periods of time and wanting to stick around for different reasons other than monetary.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's huge. I mean reducing your employee churn. I mean it's so expensive to bring on a new person, get them trained up, like, spend your time to teach them how to do all these things and then for them to leave like six months or a year later, that can be. That's. That's a huge expense. So, just by investing some time into building camaraderie, you know, having those events that you mentioned and and having them stay for like two, three, four plus years, I mean that's gonna that's money in your pocket, I mean.
Speaker 1:So I thought I think that's yeah, you're spending money on on the events, but that's money well invested, because you one, you get a tax deduction, like we talked about that too they're going to stick around longer because they felt like they feel like they're like an actual person that's, you know, connected with in the organization and they're needed. And it's not all about the money, it's not just like, like you said, it's not just about the check, it's about the relationships that they have with the rest of the people on the team. So you know it's it's that extra piece that's going to keep them, keep them around for longer. So I think that's super powerful, so that it sounds like you really got that going in your company, which is awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know, what was really important to us in starting the culture was keeping guys for a longer period of time helps us in the sense of when we're teaching them new things in the field. Those things that they learn are mistakes that they are now not making anymore. You see what I'm saying. So when we hire a new guy, we have to teach them why this doesn't work, why that doesn't work, and now it's one time being taught. They learn it. When we have to keep reteaching new people, it slows down production immensely. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gaining efficiencies with the same team. They know how to do the job. That gross profit probably starts, uh, increasing. Did you notice that? Did you notice like an increase in gross profit, like from when your culture was not as good to to what it is now, where you have a close-knit team?
Speaker 2:that was a hundred percent and and that's what I was trying to get at. What I was just mentioning is is the efficiency is just on a different level when it's guys who've been here for longer, as opposed to training new guys and having to teach them from those simple mistakes that we taught our initial guys that's awesome, cool.
Speaker 1:What's uh do you? How many crews are you running right now?
Speaker 2:so right now we're running two crews, um, two three-man crews. We usually amp up larger than that, uh, during our summer season, uh, when we implement exteriors, we're in buffalo, new york, so during winter months we're interior only. This year we have had a later start to the season. We had a lot of rain in spring and a lot of low temps, so we were just breaking 50s like a week or two ago and we're still kind of fluctuating, so it's been a late start to the season. Usually at our peak the season we're at around 10 to 12 guys and then we slim down for the wintertime.
Speaker 1:And do you notice and I'm assuming the folks that you bring in for seasonal work, are they typically folks that are new to the organization, or do you actually have some seasonal workers that come every season? They just don't only want to work during the the summer, and then they they're gone in the winter so it's mostly, uh, new guys, but we do have a couple that are from previous seasons and whatnot okay.
Speaker 1:Well, so your core, the two or two crews that you have, the six guys that you have, they're kind of your core team and they've been around for a while. So do you notice a difference in gross profit for those two teams versus the ones that come in that are only there for a few months out of the year?
Speaker 2:months out of the year. So when we bring in the couple new guys, we always put them on with those guys that are part of that main main couple crews. So there's always original guys with all of our guys gotcha and we also, as the, as the season goes on or as our schedule gets extremely busy, we have a couple companies that we subcontract work to as well, so we're kind of hybrid, but more so W2.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So those six guys, you kind of split them out into team lead or crew leads when the summer comes so that you have, kind of like your core team still present in all the crews, sounds like.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yep, okay, cool, that's good stuff. So we talked about getting, finding, getting and keeping great people in your organization. That's like a big thing for growing, you know, from zero to a million and beyond is getting those people in the door that are going to stay with you and keep that good culture. It's getting those people in the door that are going to stay with you and keep that good culture. The other things you kind of mentioned as challenges, at least in the beginning, was wearing all the hats, like doing all the legal and financial piece, like keeping track of the books, setting up the LLC, what have you found that really works for your business and that kind of finance component.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so now we're in the process of adding sales reps. I'm kind of starting to take off the hats, which is really helping. We have project manager, paint foreman, all down the line in like a hierarchy structure that is allowing me to put that trust in individuals to allow us to grow, which has hindered our growth in the past me trying to do everything. So with that in place, with us moving into our larger office, now we're starting to add admin staff, sales reps, get all those positions rolling. That will allow me to focus on what I should be as an owner.
Speaker 1:So right now it sounds like you have a project manager, and do you actually have the salesperson in place now, or are you right now looking for a salesperson?
Speaker 2:So right now we're currently looking for a sales rep. I'm doing all the sales myself. Uh, I'm realizing I'm at capacity at close to a million dollars in sales annually, uh, where I could keep quality up in terms of going on estimates, follow-ups and getting these quotes to our customers in a timely fashion. So we want to add another sales rep and continue to add as we grow. We definitely have the capability to add. I'm not able to get to all of our customers, so there's definitely something we're leaving on the table.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you mentioned admin. Do you also have an office admin as well, in addition to a project manager?
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you have your office admin, you have your production manager and then you're doing all the sales and looking to hire a salesperson so that you can just focus on managing the business, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Okay cool, so that you can just focus on managing the business, right, right, yeah, okay cool. Um, so this is a common like, like a common jump to make is a lot of painting businesses, but painting business owners are in the same situation where they're they have a production manager, they have an admin team and they want to get out of the sales so they can kind of, you know, lead the business and then that can. From that point, really, it's just you can hit three plus million once you're out of that sales role. How did you let's talk about the production manager that's a pretty key role and I know a lot of folks are trying to get to that role. How did you end up finding the right person to be the production manager and what is what is like the scope of their role, like what are they actually doing, because production managers can kind of have different roles and how do you have them set up and how did you actually successfully fill that role?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this was a role that we've tried to fill a couple of times in the past. We tried I always like to promote within. We tried moving painters up to that role in the past, but we've quickly learned that they're the best painter because that's their skill is being a painter. Uh, that's when we started listing different types of uh job ads, looking for those specific positions, and we ended up finding someone who has done this type of work in the past and they've been succeeding in that role uh, better than anyone else has, with us trying to promote within yeah, that's a great point.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think a lot of folks uh, myself included when you have someone, a technician that's really good at whatever they do, you want to like, oh, I'm going to put them in charge of that thing now. But then you're taking them out of the thing that they're really good at, and sometimes I don't even want to. They like doing the thing that they're really good at because they're super good at it, and yeah, it's a tricky thing. It seems logical to put them in charge, but sometimes it might not make sense. So you actually just went and looked for somebody that's done it before, done project management before, and just basically said, hey, can you do that for me? Is that right?
Speaker 2:Pretty much. Yeah, we hired a project manager that has experience in project management and hired them for our company, and we still wanted to give our painters the opportunity to be able to grow. So that's why we have project managers and then foremans as well, and that foreman role is more suitable for a painter that goes above and beyond, because we make sure that they're pretty much our painting foremans. They're there to answer questions for the other painters, lead by example, and then our PMs are the ones who deal directly with customers, collect payments and handle any issues we might have. Gotcha.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. What's the? Because you have an office person and a lot of times people kind of blend what the office person does and what the project manager does. Like, where's the handoff that you found that works for your company? Like, is it at the point at which the colors are? Like the office person helps with the onboarding and gets the colors and then hands it off to the production manager? Or, you know, is it at some other point?
Speaker 2:So right now our admin and we might change this as we add more sales reps, but what's been working for us with me doing the sales, is our admin answers the phone, makes the schedule, onboards our clients in terms of estimates, then it gets handed off to the project manager once the project is booked. Our admin staff also double checks, payroll all that internal admin stuff.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. So as soon as the project's booked, the project managers are making sure the colors are good to go, they order the paint and all that.
Speaker 2:Communication with the customer transfers over to the PM as well In terms of paint color choice, making sure the crews have the paint ready for the jobs, making sure the vans are in order, the office in order, the shop we have a shop that's connected to our office making sure that that's in order and everything's running smooth. They oversee all production, I oversee all sales and our admin kind of handles all the paperwork and all the in between.
Speaker 1:Okay so it sounds like the handoff is really going to be between the salesperson and the production manager. That's like salesperson gets it closed and then hands it off to the production manager to take it from there, right, okay?
Speaker 2:Correct, and if there's any questions in between, the PM or myself will touch base with the admin. Hey, did you see something about this customer? Did they call in to change this date? We all kind of work in unison.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. So, um, so you figured out the the best way for for your organization is to actually find people who have done project management before and get them to do it for your company. That's that's, uh, it actually makes a lot of sense and a lot of a lot of folks that have found that to be true as well. Like, just people have done. You know, you're not a unique painting business. There's plenty of painting businesses out there or similarly related trades, and all of them have project managers.
Speaker 1:Just get one of those people to come work for you Instead of trying to like find someone in your organization that has never done it and they can work if you have the right person, the right type of person and everything, but it can be a big learning curve. So it's kind of a you know them, you know their capabilities, but it might be a big learning curve for them. So it's kind of a you know a trade off a little bit there. But, okay, great, are you? Are you going to apply that same strategy to the salesperson? Are you just looking for a salesperson to basically come work for you, or how are you approaching that?
Speaker 2:So we're definitely hiring um the sales rep that has sales experience. It doesn't necessarily have to be painting sales experience, but we're definitely making sure that they have a sales background with a proven experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. And what sort of compensation structures? That's like always a big question is like compensation structures how do I compensate my production manager, or how do I compensate my salesperson? Have you found anything that works well with your project manager?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so with the PMs we offer a base salary with a commission based on production times. So we have a formula set in place that if crews finish one day, two days before their allotted time, then the PM gets a commission.
Speaker 1:Okay. So if the crews are being efficient, the project manager gets an additional commission on top of their base salary.
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:Okay, cool, cool. And then are you trying to do sales compensation similar, like tied to sort of that efficiency gross profit as well, or what are you thinking for the salesperson compensation?
Speaker 2:For the sales, we've been messing around with a 45,000 base, a three percent uh, three percent commission on all sales okay, so for and and what do you like a salesperson?
Speaker 1:I know obviously you're closing about a million yourself, but you're doing everything else. Are you kind of expecting a1.5 million for a salesperson to close like a good one?
Speaker 2:Right, yep, and we're also just to add a little more background on that structure. The 3% we do plan to pay in the check. That's right after when the customer makes the deposit. So if they book the job, customer pays deposit, that 3% is in their check. The next pay period.
Speaker 1:Nice, okay, so you're making sure you get that cash, because that's a big thing with having a team is you've got to have the cash to pay them. Making sure that you have that deposit. How much of a deposit do you take?
Speaker 2:Oh, cashflow is huge and and it was actually, I forget it was one of those seminars, uh, where you did a speaking on and everything you spoke about with the cashflow of things. It just hit it on point, you know. I mean you could have a successful business, but if the cashflow is not there, it's, it's very damaging to to a business. Um, I'm sorry, what was the question?
Speaker 1:Oh, how much of a deposit are you taking?
Speaker 2:Oh, we're taking a 30%, Some we take 35%.
Speaker 1:Nice, okay, yeah, so that easily covers your labor, um, and, and you're, you're, you're marking a part of it, it sounds like for your salesperson, which is great, because then you have that already set aside, so that's awesome. And your $45,000 base salary, which is, if they do, 1.5 million in revenue, that's about 3%, as stated as a percentage 3% of the revenue. Then on top of that they get a 3% commission as well, so that's about 6%. Assuming they hit 1.5 million in sales, that would be about 6% of revenue going to them, which that sounds like a really good compensation package. That's very in line with what I typically see across different painting businesses, so that looks like a really good compensation structure.
Speaker 1:I know one of the big challenges that some folks come into contact with is you know you have your production manager, who is, in this case, you're compensating him based off of efficiency of your crews, and then you have your salesperson who's actually giving the bid. You know they're giving the price the customer, and I know you haven't. You might kind of have this issue now because you're the salesperson but how do you guys address, like, the situation where the salesperson, but how do you guys address the situation where the salesperson may have underbid the job, and then the production manager is potentially penalized for having not much budget available and therefore doesn't get a bonus.
Speaker 2:Right, a bonus Right. So right now, with me doing it, it's a little easier for me to avoid that because I'm the one doing it. Obviously, mistakes happen. I've had situations where I've underbidded jobs. It happens. We're transparent with our customers. Usually when it's underbidded customers. Usually when it's underbidded, it's usually because of something that was unforeseen or the project just ended up being more difficult than what meets the eye, and my customers are usually understanding in that fact and we're able to work something out where we can retain a little bit more to cover that. Anytime I add a change order, I'm always fair about it. I always like to tell my customer hey, we're not trying to kill you on this, we just want to make ends meet for that change order portion of the project. But for when a sales rep uh comes in place, we have a structure uh, it's a, it's an estimate, estimate guide sheet where they're going to be able to go through all this to make sure that they're not underbidding uh, based on measurements and visual items.
Speaker 1:Yep, that makes sense. I know that's good because that can be definitely. I'm glad you're thinking about it because, like that is, that can be definitely a friction point between the production manager and the salesperson. You know, if you don't mitigate it right, you might have some issues there. I know some painting businesses have actually also commissioned the salesperson based off of the efficiency of the project too, so that therefore, not only the project manager but also the salesperson are bonus off of gross profit or some metric you know, efficiency metric so that they're all both on the same page and work in terms of the same goal. Because the salesperson's goal, you know, typically is to book as much as they can. But if you can also throw in like, but it also has to be profitable, that can help align the incentives of the salesperson and the production manager and so that they're more working together instead of working against each other, like I know. For example, you know, jason Paris, paris painting.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Jason was talking to him about how he compensates his salesperson and his production manager and he was saying that basically it's two factors. Like you have your customer satisfaction metric, which can be like Google reviews or a net promoter score, and then also an efficiency metric like gross profit or time on the job, like budgeted hours metric, like gross profit or time on the job, like budgeted hours, and those two numbers the salesperson and the production manager are bonused off of those two numbers. So both the sales and production manager, so that they're both kind of moving in the same direction to ensure that, one, they're getting a Google review or happy customer getting a happy customer, and then, two, it's a profitable project.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that makes a ton of sense and hopefully we don't run into that issue where we have the friction between the sales and the PM. But it's definitely something we're going to have to look into if that friction does appear. And I appreciate that insight because that will really help us when that time comes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely no, I think. Well, you've been super generous with your time, zach. I mean I love what you're doing over there in Buffalo, new York. Wouldn't want to live in Buffalo, new York a little bit too cold for me. I'm in Orlando, florida, but I'm loving what you're doing there. It sounds like you have an outstanding culture that's bringing in the right people, and I like the way you think about getting the folks that have done the thing before. Just have them do it for me. So I'm super excited for the future of your company. And do you have any last thoughts for the audience or anything before I let you go today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, just anyone that's listening, that owns a painting business, just understand, as hard as it may be, there's always light at the tunnel and, as cliche as that sounds, I just I know how it is. We all struggle here and there. Keep pushing along because there's there's a lot to be rewarded in this industry A lot of great people, you know. Looking forward to seeing you at the upcoming events. Always have a great time with you, daniel, so looking forward to see you and Cody up there.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, absolutely Zach. It was good talking to you and for the listeners. We will see you next week.
