Servant Leadership And Systems That Scale Profits In A Painting Business

If you’ve ever felt trapped between the brush and the books, this conversation will feel like a map out of the maze. We sit down with Cui of Paramo Painting in San Antonio to trace his path from chaotic early days to a focused, people-first business powered by servant leadership, job costing, and simple, repeatable processes. The turning point wasn’t a hack—it was humility. Honest feedback pushed him to stop muscling through and start building a company that serves both customers and the crew.

We dig into the guts of operations: how job costing exposes hidden leaks in labor and materials, why clear work orders reduce rework, and how a tight sales-to-production handoff sets crews up to win. Cui shares how he defined core values, set standards for behavior and appearance on site, and used those standards to hire and part ways—because culture is what you tolerate. Delegation emerges as the hardest skill for a craftsman-founder to learn. Handing “the baby” to someone else is scary, but Cui shows how to give trust early, offer a roadmap, and coach through feedback loops so the team can handle repeat clients without founder dependency.

Education and community accelerated the climb. From PCA events and PCA Español to audiobooks and frameworks like StoryBrand, Cui built a learning habit that shifted instincts from reaction to design. We explore when it’s right to stay small by choice, and what it takes to scale with intention: consistent job costing, clear scopes, values-driven hiring, and scheduled time to mentor your leaders. Problems don’t go away; they move upstream as you solve them—so treat each one as a chance to make the business stronger and more profitable.

Ready to run a company, not just a crew? Press play, grab a notebook, and pick one system to build this week. If this helped, follow the show, share it with a contractor friend, and leave a quick review so more painters can profit from their work.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the show where painting contractors learn how to boost profits, cut taxes, and build a business that works for them. I'm your host, Daniel Honan, CPA, former painting business owner, and your guide to mastering the numbers that drive success. So let's dive in and make your business more profitable one episode at a time. Super excited today to speak with Kui from Paramo Painting out of Texas. Super excited. How's it going, Kui?

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Pretty good, man. Very excited to be here with you. Thank you for the opportunity.

Events, Networking, And PCA Español

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Absolutely. Glad to glad to talk, man. I I see I feel like I see you like so much at the different events. We we were just on uh San Antonio. Well, I was just in San Antonio. You're always in that area, but um, and we were at the PCA Espanol event, so it's cool to uh to jump on a podcast with you.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Thank you, man. Uh yeah, my backyard was was hosting all those nice events. Hope everybody get gets something good to apply in their company.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

So yes, sir. Yeah, it's definitely a lot I know a lot of folks feel like it's drinking out of a fire hose going to like a PCA event because there's so many, so much good information, it's almost hard to know where to start because there's so many things to improve, so many things to implement, and it's just kind of overload for for a few days trying to figure out okay, what do I start with?

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Yeah, especially if you're going like not knowing what to spec. I mean, I mean, I think sometimes when you're used to this event, now you have a goal. You know, today I'm going after this and and so forth.

Kui’s Origin Story And Milestones

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Yes, sir. Well, for folks that don't know you, and I know you're pretty well known in the in the industry because you're you're always at the events and uh supporting the PCA. But for those that don't know you, could you let folks know how did you get started in the painting industry and what have been some major milestones along the way?

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Well, uh my name is uh Kui Peramo. Um I'm the founder of Paramo Painting, uh located here in San Antonio, Texas. And uh how we started business, I think like like everybody, you know, like you want to be a rocket science, you you aim for that since you're five years old. No, I mean like everybody. We you're here for for need, you know. We need to uh provide to to our families, to ourselves. So and then uh then we decide to to start doing it on our own. And and I just realized that it's not not easy. So that's why I started going into this kind of events. So to you know, like to to find people like-minded, uh dealing with the uh the same problems that I do. Probably they fix their problems already so I can learn from them or try to help in this case, people uh uh doing uh dealing with what I was dealing with. So milestones, it's I want to say I have now I have friendship with a lot of people. Uh I have like I can tell you good friendship. Good uh I've been uh now I have the uh opportunity to have others, which I didn't know it's something that I really like to do. And of course, um I mean uh have my company to be more uh I don't know if we should use the the word successful, but let's be to have a company not to be a headache, you know, like learning how to do processes, learning how to if if you really have a profitable comp uh company or not, you know. So I think I think that's the main thing, you know, to know where you're stepping on.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah, absolutely.

Hitting Chaos And Seeking Help

SPEAKER_00 3:53

And so how long have you been in the industry at this point? Uh the industry as a painter, uh, I mean, like almost 20 years, but uh being on on this side of the of the field, it's uh it's been almost like seven seven years.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

Okay, so 20 years overall, 14 or six. I'm sorry. Yeah, like 13 or 14 as a painter, and then seven or so as a as a business owner.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Okay, awesome. And uh I know one of the things that you had started, you felt like in the beginning, first, and this is pretty much everybody, I think, that starts a business, it was kind of chaotic in the beginning. When you first start, you don't have processes, you don't have clarity on your numbers, and and then over time you you sound like you linked up with like-minded people, started going to the PCA events, and started like learning on what things you could implement, improve your processes. Um at what point, what was like the the thing that made you reach out for help? Because it sounded like for a few a couple of years there, you might have been struggling pretty you know significantly, which most people do, uh starting out in the in as a painting business owner. What point did you actually start reaching out, getting help, and like making big reforms in your business?

Servant Leadership Mindset Shift

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Uh when what happened is uh uh a certain point I start uh painting myself, and then I start having uh too much time to spare. And and I said, What can I do to be better for my guys? You know, like I've been very committed with it, uh, my people. Like I I think it's if not the most important, one of the most important uh uh assets of the company, you know, uh, or people. And and I start trying to learn how to be a better leader. Because uh honestly, as a uh technician, you don't think like you can um help people, you know, you just think like people is there for for uh screw you. Unfortunately, we think like that. Uh and um and I said, what can I do to get better, right? Start looking into uh into I always like to read books, but since uh work uh I just learned uh even you can listen to a good book, and then uh I got hooked up with the podcast of um um PCA uh Paintet on Spotify. And uh and I started listening to all these people, you know. I mean, I don't remember who really listened the most, but uh I used to like uh listen to stories that real people, the real people that talk uh uh paint works, uh words. So uh then I started what is PCA about, and then happened to be on a San Antonio residential forum. So um and uh and I I went there, I met a lot of people. I don't think if you were there, uh, but a lot of people that I've been bumping each other's heads on uh on on other events, I met him in uh in San Antonio. Like is it crazy? Yeah. Then I start going to expo, I started meeting new people, and then we start this uh this new wave about uh PCA in espanhol. Um, and uh I'm happy to to help with that.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

So nice. So I guess you know you you you mentioned you're you had you know painters working for you and you wanted to be a better leader. What kind of spurred that? What was the thing that made you realize, man, I really need to step up my game as a leader?

Systems: Job Costing And Process Basics

SPEAKER_00 8:05

When you realize that you're not you're not right, you know, like um I always get to be the one who said the last word. Uh never had an input into it until somebody hit me hard saying, like, um I'm I'm not a good person, you know? And I'm like, I feel like I'm a good person, like I just realized that I'm not a good leader. So it was we're we as the technicians, Daniel, we're like until something happened to us, we kind of start doing things, right? Like put up with a fire. And then when I jump into this world, uh, it's not just about pain, it's about uh it's about being uh like like the entire entire body of being a business owner and and not just to be the business owner. It's uh being a leader, being uh um being a uh a good person on and uh um on the eyes of the society, like even the small town where we are right now, we like to to be part of it, you know, like not just the leader of my house. I want to be the leader of of more people. I want to serve. I'm I'm looking for that. That's the word I was looking for. I like to serve people. So then that hit me hard when somebody told me that I'm an evil person. So I started doing something about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

So you you got some harsh words, and you basically dedicated to serving serving your team, and instead of just being focused on like putting out fires and trying to do things yourself, like try to serve your team, set them up for success, and and be more of a leader. Is that how you approach leadership? Is more of like a servant role? Has to be, man. Has to be.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

Yeah. Uh you cannot just come and tell somebody, well, if you're in the army, I don't know if you serve, but uh you you have to do what you you've been told to do, you know. Uh and uh probably I'm wrong saying it, but I'd rather have people happy working. It's the numbers don't lie up and on that matter, you know, when you have somebody comfortable coming to work uh instead of saying, like, oh my goodness, I have to go to work, you know. Like um, because also that happened to me. I mean, uh one time, like I said, being a uh a bat leader, uh I have a person a person working on my company, the my the main guy was afraid to fire him. Uh, but I was feeling comfortable going to the job site in my own company. So so uh that's why another thing that's far like what can I do to avoid all that, you know. So um, and I I have to say it, yeah, you have to serve uh uh to be a good leader, I think.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

That makes sense. You say you you were in the military?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

No, no, no, no, no. Oh I I think they I mean you have to do something that they they told you to, so not in not in uh not in a in a painting company, you know what I'm saying? Okay, gotcha, gotcha.

Culture, Core Values, And Team Fit

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Okay, I was about to say it's like uh because I was in the military, so I was like, oh, okay. Because that is kind of the approach in the military, is like uh when I served, um that was kind of the mentality as leaders in the military that you kind of served your team or your your platoon or your company, whatever. You can because they're the ones on the front line, they're doing the hard work. And as a leader, you have to make sure that they have they have the logistics, right? They have the the bullets and the and the beans and the rice, and they have the food and the ammo and they're uh also the training that they need. And it's your job as a leader to kind of make sure that they're set up with all those things that they need so that they're successful in the battlefield. And so I think what you said makes sense. Where as a leader, it's really about being a servant to your team to make sure they get all the things that they need to be successful. So, like you said, training, make sure that they have the right tools, make sure they have the right the work order, right? The clear instructions on that work order so that they know what the expectations are, what they need to do, that they have a good handoff, you know, from from sales to production management, all those things so that they can do their job and be successful at it. Uh is that would you agree? Yeah, man, 100%. Yeah. So what what things changed in the way you b behaved or how you did things in your company when you made that mindset change uh from being a just on paper, like in charge of the company, to trying to be more of a servant leader.

Delegation Pains From 3 To 12 Staff

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Well, the uh here's the thing. Back in back then, there's no um job costing, there's no uh um work orders, there's nothing. It's just this is the house, this is what we're gonna do, and that's it. Get it done, right? Because you're a painter, you know what to do. So uh then I started getting deep into okay, what is uh what is job costing? I started doing job costing. Okay, we're using too much uh material, you know. You're using we're spending too much time on on um whatchamacallit on labor. Why on labor? Because uh the the the crew leader was getting there late and everybody was clocking in like two hours before they start actually working, and little details like that that you cannot address uh when you don't have the data. So then those things start changing. I feel more confident on what what we're doing. Um, if I'm charging right, or if I'm chort charging, uh I made a mistake, uh uh making an estimate of this project, so and so. And at the end of the day, the numbers were telling me, you're right, you're wrong, uh, and this is where you're failing at. So there's there's no way around when you put numbers down. And uh, and of course, it gave me more time uh to um whatchamacallit to assess what it's it hurting the company. Because eventually we we grew to up to 12 people from three people to 12 people, and he it's always you get the this this phrase that I love it like it, the growing pain. You know, when you don't have the system in place, you're just gonna have people running running like crazy around, you know, jealousy, gossip. There's no uh there's no actual bones on something. So what he changed is little by little, uh on on any transition, any transition, even in your body, you lose weight, you get you have to get rid of clothes that you you won't uh it won't fit on you anymore, right? Um I have to uh say bye to a lot of people that used to be my co-workers, and another working for somebody else, but since they they're good painters, they I I wasn't aware that they bad fit for our company, what we were achieving, like like uh you know, like smoking on a somebody's home. Now we start getting into what is the core values, what how we're gonna look in in front of people. We're gonna be wearing uh uh uniform or at least uh uh uh a t-shirt that's gonna represent the company. So that changed in a good way. Okay, in a good way. I'm not saying that that happened and everything is is now on wheels, right? You know, even you and your company, you bump into several issues once in a while, right? And especially you deal with a lot of painters and on the being the CPA of them, you know, it's hard to keep the well, it's not hard. I mean, just to keep the finances on track, it's something, right? So that's what we have to do to be able to make a decision. So that's what it changed in a good way. So and we're keep improving because uh we're not down yet.

Tips To Get Off The Brush

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah, that's all you can do. I mean, there's I I think Warren Buffett said that business is problems. Like if you if you're in business, you gotta expect problems. Problem that's that's the whole thing. So if you're if you have a business right now and you are surprised when problems arise, you're you probably should do something else because it's you should just expect problems to happen. If there were no problems, then people wouldn't hire you because that's the whole reason why they're hiring you because they have a problem. So you gotta you gotta be ready and expecting problems every day. So yeah, I totally get it. And yeah, for sure. We we're always facing different problems, and solving them is our job, and that's that's all the only thing you can do is uh be open to problems. And uh, I think it was actually Jeff Bezos. Um, and one of his biographies, there's a one of the people that he worked with said that whenever Jeff Bezos would find a problem, when someone would bring him a problem, he he actually got excited. He's like excited about that problem because he felt it was like an opportunity to improve the business and you know make it more valuable or make it more profitable. Because if there was an issue, uh, like if there was a process issue or whatever, if they fixed it, theoretically it could make it more efficient and then make Amazon more profitable. So so instead of, you know, because I think the the natural tendency, especially for myself, when when a problem is coming your way, you're like, oh geez, you know, what what we got now? You know, there's some some issue, and you like you're kind of get that uh that feeling in your gut, like, all right, what's there's some sort of issue going on, okay. But uh he actually had the complete 180 feeling. He he actually got excited, okay, cool. We have a problem, we can figure this out once we solve it, then it's gonna make the business more valuable or more profitable or something. So I think you know it's uh kind of a mindset shift, and it and it's also true. Like if you can the more problems you solve in your business, especially related to processes and people, it's gonna make the business better. And a better business for the owner is is gonna be is gonna be good, it's gonna be more profitable, more efficient. And so it's it's all good when you're solving solving those problems.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yeah, for sure, man. 100% agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

So what have been some big the biggest changes? You said you you grew from basically having three people in the team to 12 people in the team. What were some of the biggest growing pains or challenges for? from to go from three to twelve.

Learning, Books, And Peer Influence

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah. Uh delegation. And I mean, uh, like I said, still with the uh technician mindset, delegation and also being the the owner or the founder of this uh small business, it's it's uh whatchamacallit? It's painful to to it's not painful. It's it's uh it's hard to give away your baby, right? Somebody else take care of your baby, especially a uh uh for example, a customer that I've been I I've been uh having a customer for since I started my business. They're calling me back. And I they have they create this um vicious uh attachment to me like if I'm not there they're gonna look for somebody else you know and then I have this on the back of my head. So I need to delegate and it's it's it it is it is a little bit of a headache when you have somebody else to do in a uh going to do um an an estimate uh if this person gonna do it right or not. Uh uh what else um the financials you know that's the first thing I want to get rid of it that's why we have somebody help us with that. So I think the legation it's something that I I want to say probably because I you I know you know a lot of people in the industry that they're never being painters and uh it's easy for them just to tell somebody what to do right um you're gonna do sales you're gonna do uh admin you're gonna do project managing you wanna be in charge of the production and it's less painful to to delegate for them and all it I don't I don't know if you have a number on the the statistics but the um probably the sort of people who is doing better quicker than than a technician uh with the brush on the hand you know so um that's that's one of the things that it's uh it's uh it's it's been harsh it's not it's not a problem now you know because I I believe I'm a true believer of when you hire somebody after you do the the proper uh homework when you ask the right questions where you've been working at are you being uh managing projects so and so and this is this isn't a project manager uh manager uh uh point the uh and then you you start with the trust over here i mean i give people trust right away high because uh instead of uh micromanaging with the trust on the very low end because at the end of the day trust is hard to keep you know and if I want to trust somebody I want to close my eyes and and this is your responsibilities here's the the roadmap because also I cannot just tell them hey you're gonna do this and you figure out right because I used to do that Daniel a lot you know with my first project manager it was like hey go to do this you know and okay what colors go where like uh ask the client you know like it was like that bad so and now we're we we we're pretty good at it but it was was uh and on me on me the um the what you my calling the the the trust the delegation yeah yeah yeah I feel like delegation is almost like a a muscle you have to train it's you know it especially if you are like you said you're you you are you know how to paint you're good at it and you have you know it's in me you know I'm a CPA obviously I work in a CPA firm so I can do all the things uh so the tendency is to well I can just do this really quick to take care of it instead of working my team delegating it to my team having them do it having them have the reps on it get more confident with it and be able to take it over for the future so it's almost like a um kind of a crutch almost for for for you know you as the craftsman to jump in or you know you have the skill jump in and it's kind of a short term fix like you're in the short term it might be better like because you got it done right then and there really quick but in the the medium term the long term it's not good because you're you're basically robbing your team of the opportunity to get the experience and the training to be able to do it the next time and and from that point forward.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

So uh I don't have the exact metrics statistics on what you're saying in terms of like do folks that don't have they don't know how to paint do they grow faster um but I would agree that that they do not have that um temptation to want to jump in when they you know they don't have the skills so they are pretty much reliant on their team to to execute and so it just kind of it uh allows you to focus on growing the business and the systems and not have to worry about doing the painting because you don't you don't know how to paint. So it it is an additional challenge.

Final Advice And Resources

Closing And Next Week Tease

SPEAKER_00 25:40

I think you're right for for folks that are that know the craft that are really good at it to kind of like you said uh give your baby away let let someone else take take control and uh and execute that is definitely a challenge and that I know as well um and I know a lot of people uh struggle with that too do you have any tips for someone that's trying to you know get off the brush or you know get well get their hands yeah yes I I've been I've been telling a lot of people lately like you go to this events and everybody tell you write down what are you looking for what is your your your what is your goal your your your dream in life where you want to be at you know and start writing down things because if uh I I I listened to that like for five years I never done it until I start doing it and things start going different why I don't know I don't know it's a magical thing I don't know it's like you know I can give you my my um my loss and profit out of my mouth then you're gonna be like dude I need to see it in paper you know so the uh first figure out what you want because there's a lot of people who are doing great just being a solo painter with a helper and you add talks to them and they're they sound so happy that you I mean I mean that's the main thing looking for happiness or looking for stability looking for something that you really want to enjoy you know and uh and they recognize that they're not pretty good managing people. That's it. And uh and I just noticed to me if I don't have people working with me uh I I I can do okay but I I'm a I'm a people person you know you heard about the those uh um the uh the personality assessments and all that I'm an I so I I tend to be I want to be surrounded by people you know um and I like to help people I like to bless people and I like to do the right thing for people so I can tell you if you're okay being by yourself go keep doing it get just just uh look look for happiness if you really want to grow your company you need to start educating yourself because uh you cannot just start doing things out of will you know so you need to educate yourself you need to how to how to manage people how to manage uh your finances how to manage your your uh productions how to manage your clients how are you gonna bring more clients how are you gonna take care of your existing clients you know so that that's that's not just like I want to be a painter I'm gonna uh be rich I wanna I just want to uh uh not clock in clock out I want to just have freedom because those are things the uh that nobody tells you you know the the the the the problem so if you're real you're a problem solver you're more than welcome to start growing your company but yes if you don't learn how to delegate you start um uh like come calming down your feelings uh you know Nick Slavic managed that a lot the um feelings plus data right so you you guys have to um have to learn how to how to educate yourself because even I I have a lot of friends that never grab a book in their lives and now we talk about books right why because they have to they have to have the perspective of of different people who've been doing this for for over time.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

So yeah that's I think there's that saying leaders are readers so that I think that's a helpful a helpful uh reminder that if you want to lead you got to read and there's uh there's a lot of great books out there that business management but also just like biographies or memoirs autobiographies that are super helpful and just understanding you know what what uh what you should do in different situations and um I know for me biographies and autobiographies are really helpful because it's especially the more successful the the the successful business entrepreneurs but even not quite uh entrepreneurs like for example you know Arnold Schwarzenegger he he he was not quite an he he kind of was an entrepreneur in some ways like he did start a country construction company when he was younger and stuff but just his his uh his mentality on how he handles things really and and the how big goals he set for himself uh he wasn't afraid of setting big goals but there's different things you can learn from people and just their mindset and way they thought about things that are very successful. And uh you know there's also that thing where it's you're the average of the the the five people you spend the most time with. And so I think spending time with like a really successful person not necessarily in person but if you're you're reading their autobiography or their biography you're essentially kind of getting in their head you're spending time with time with them. And if you're always doing that if you're always reading autobiographies biographies of the most successful people you're kind of some of that mindset ideas are gonna rub off on you you'll get good good ways of thinking about things um I know at least I have with with hiring managing people leading people uh it's like you said you know if if you want to grow your business beyond yourself which not if you don't that's fine like you said it it's all up to you and what you want in your business. But I think if you if you do want to grow your business beyond yourself you do have to definitely learn and be ready to continue to learn and be a student of leadership. And uh not that you'll ever be a perfect leader or know it all in terms of leadership but you at least at least be a student of it so you can continue to improve upon where you are now. It is um cool well I really appreciate your time today you know I'd like to give you an opportunity to you know give any last thoughts to painting business owners that are are maybe uh trying to become better leaders or get better at delegating or grow their business to the next level do you have any final thoughts on how they should do that or what resources are available that maybe folks aren't aware of or anything that uh you'd like to ask the audience yeah um you just said it uh um you gotta start if you can now hang out with these people people that you think are gonna be beneficial for your life start you know following them start listening to them um books I was if you're not a a book reader that's fine I mean we as uh whenever we go to do an estimate we're driving all the time get an audiobook you know start listening to it something that you feel gonna even if it's uh like you just said it to Daniel like I like biographies and if somebody wants to read something else they're gonna feel into it is that you you you're you're ready um exercising your muscle and the muscle gonna gonna gonna start getting into more stuff you know like then how how to manage people you know what is the what can I do about how to manage my finances how to delegate there's a lot of good books out there and uh and like the one I always I always uh I want to listen it two three times uh probably a month is the uh Donald Miller uh building a story brand it I feel like every time I listen to it it's I catch something new so um it really uh it really tells you how to picture your company what is it why you want right uh you because we're on this um what you my calling we're in the service industry right where uh Jason Jason Phillips said a lot that we're in the people business but on the both sides people working for us people who we are serving right and how do you want that people to look at you to look at your company what what is it what you want what what is it what you really you really um are looking for that's I think sometimes we get lost into uh what is it what we want right uh the basic answers you're gonna get into a new entrepreneur is I want freedom I want money I want you name it everything is it's uh um it's uh it's superficial until you start finding things like you want freedom to what to enjoy with your family or to what to just leave and get up late because at the end of the day once once you find your really uh your really uh a goal in life or whatever you want to do you're gonna get deeper and deeper and and that's that's not bad and and the let me tell you uh whoever is going to this transition uh there's a lot of people gonna fall out of your train because uh your mindset is gonna start changing and people gonna think that you're not the sand you used to and something is changing you and you're evil person so so be prepared for that especially family it could be could be painful so start creating that the that skin at the end of the day if that's what you want if not I'll see you around and and we're good we're colleagues no nothing happened so no pasta nada yeah uh awesome I appreciate uh those thoughts and definitely agree I I uh really appreciate you sharing your journey and your thoughts on delegation and leadership super important conversation I think that needs to be continue to be had with painting business owners uh so really appreciate you jump on the podcast sharing your thoughts on the on those topics and for the audience with that we will see you next week