From Startup To Sale In Four Years

We talk with Lauren about launching a rural painting company, scaling fast through brand and responsiveness, and selling to McFarland Painting in four years. She shares honest lessons on hiring a PM, doing open-book due diligence, and finding a better role post-sale.

• starting Apex Painting in 2021 and reaching $650k in two years
• using yard signs, reviews and a simple site to build trust
• inbound marketing in rural markets over paid ads
• writing SOPs for work and home to reduce chaos
• capacity limits while parenting and growing fast
• hiring wins and misses when replacing yourself
• what makes a strong, steady project manager
• deciding to sell, networking into a buyer
• open-book due diligence and clean financials
• choosing acquisition plus employment over a merger
• life after sale as an estimator and key lessons

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:20

Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the show where painting contractors learn how to boost profits, cut taxes, and build a business that works for them. I'm your host, Daniel Hunan. I'm a CPA Informer Painting Business Owner and your guide to mastering the numbers that drive success. So let's dive into it one episode at a time. I'm super excited today to be joined by Lauren Fink out of Michigan. How's it going, Lauren?

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Great. Daniel, thanks for having me on.

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Absolutely. I'm excited to get into it. I think you uh have a really interesting voice and you've been through quite the journey in your painting business. I think a lot of folks will get a value out of this today. So just to for folks that don't know you, um, could you give us a picture of how you got started in the painting industry and what's been your journey along the way?

From Journalism To Painting Startup

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Sure. Yes, big question. Um a little bit about me. Um, I'm a mom of five. My husband and I live on 10 acres out in the country in Michigan, and we're in South Central Michigan, not really near much of anything. Um and I've done a lot of things uh in my career, uh, mostly in the journalism and editing world, which is what I studied in college. But since I was really like 10 years old, I've always been really entrepreneurial. So um I believe my husband would probably say it was a matter of time that I opened my own business. And um I think it's kind of uh super so I sold my business in July of 2025. So you're you're getting the like sort of eight, nine month um post-sale uh interview. And I think it's kind of apt to say that before I started Apex Painting, so that I started it in May of 2021, my one of my business mentors told me, um, it doesn't really matter what business you start, um, you're gonna be successful in business and you're gonna sell your business within five years. Um this did not make any sense to me at the time. Uh, it just was like, but why why would I do that? You know, especially if it's successful. But his point, and I think one thing, you know, which is kind of fun to talk about, is um, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs like myself, very, very strong visionary and starter personality. And his point was, you are actually not well designed to run a business after it started up. Um, you probably could, but you're not gonna like it. And so um, and I did exactly what he predicted. Um, sold my business at four years and two months um to my colleague John McFarland. Uh, he owns McFarland Painting in Livonia, which is about an hour and a half from my home and our shop here. Our entire staff and shop and vehicles, and myself, we all went on board with McFarland Painting um in July. So it was a very special. I I the word graduation is what kept popping in my head because we all got to graduate into a larger company um with better jobs and better benefits and um a lot more opportunity when I sold my business, which is really uh it's an incredible dream because I think the scary part of selling is sort of what's gonna happen with what I built. It's hard to let go of things you've built, maybe even if you should. And so um I was really just very fortunate that I could see everything actually get taken that I had worked so hard on and like advanced, not uh closed down or um, you know, there was not really no negative to it, and I really wanted to sell my business. So um that's kind of uh I don't know, that's a pretty, pretty brief start to finish.

SPEAKER_01 4:31

Yeah, no, that's awesome. That's uh your mentor got it spot on. I I'll have to get him on the podcast too. Like a premonition there to sell within five years and you do it in four. Uh so you started in May 2021, you built it up and sold it by July 2025 to McFarland Painting. Um, what are what are some of the biggest successes during that that time frame?

SPEAKER_00 5:01

Well, um there's a lot. Um uh I started from the ground up. I was not a professional painter when I started my business. I was more of a professional mom, um, which I think sometimes lends itself more to business than people realize. I I'm not saying I can definitely encourage like moms of many children to just go starting businesses, but uh the whole like, you know, you've kind of been running a small business and now you run a different small business with different kinds of kids. Um, the parallel was like kind of unreal. Yeah. Um but yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

I was gonna say uh I I have four kids. My my wife and I, we have four kids, and um my wife she she helps me in the business, she does opside. So yeah, she does a lot of the uh basically she says her whole day is telling people to do things and then following up to make sure that they they do it, basically. The kids and the you know the folks that we're we work with. So yeah, she just there's no difference between her work life and her her uh mom mom life. It's pretty much the same thing that she's doing.

Hitting $650K With Branding

SPEAKER_00 6:10

It's the parallels are are wild, and I I would love to hear her thoughts on one thing that really struck me was that when I was designing SOPs at my work, um I I kept realizing that I didn't have SOPs at home. Like I was expecting my kids to be following my instruction, but I really didn't give them a great plan with any sort of written enough written instruction, enough accountability. So as I was doing that in business, I felt actually very convicted as a parent that I was sort of expecting my kids to be just off the cuff remembering everything I was expecting of them. So I changed some things I did at home because of it. But um uh successes successes were um we did about six hundred and fifty thousand dollars in revenue within two years. Um so I I was really uh I mean the the perception that we needed another painting contractor in my area and the actuality was was right on. And my ability to sell and brand and market was very, very, very strong. Um, so those things were like took off, like you know, I sold everything that we did. Um, I was our full-time estimator, and hiring um good people in the field was definitely the harder part of my world. Um and then as things got closer to a million dollars in revenue over the first three years, um just just managing the chaos, um, understanding my finances was uh a very slow um kind of rocky road. Uh and and became more and more important to me. Um and but I mean the big ones for me were probably um just the ability, it's kind of like honestly, I I'm very proud of this story, even though like I had a lot of, I made tons of mistakes, um learned a ton, failed a lot, uh put myself into debt with some of those decisions that were failures. Um to me, it really is kind of just a beautiful picture of the American dream that you can just start a business. I wasn't in the field, um, I didn't have any credentials. And within three years, I was doing over about$800,000 in revenue in this industry with residential, commercial. Um, we were doing epoxy floors by about year three and three, yeah. And um that that's just like that's such a cool thing that you can do. Um, it's uh it's just a good, like you can't do that everywhere in the world. You can't you can't do that. And so it's really great to just get to see like this in action that like um starting from nothing is actually still possible. Uh it's got some interesting challenges. The government doesn't always make it easy, but um at the same time, there's a lot of freedoms and a lot of information and a lot of like good things that support you when you're doing it.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yeah, that's awesome. So you built it to 650,000 within two years, which is pretty pretty amazing feat. And uh you were doing the sales of production management, you you had crews going. Um and you you mentioned that you were able your your strength was selling in brand. Um which uh you know most painting business owners that I speak to that are at that stage aren't really talking about brand yet. So I'm just curious, like what went into that word brand? Like, what were you doing that early? Obviously it worked, but what uh how do you think about brand at that level for a painting business at doing 650, 800?

Inbound Over Outbound In Rural Markets

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Well, um yeah, I mean branding was always kind of my favorite part. So um even just the basics of designing a really excellent yard sign, um, which in a small community that that is your yard sign is like everything. Um it's you know, besides your reputation, it's basically the whole game. Um getting an online presence, I think, did make um I think did make a big difference, mostly just so people could verify what they thought you were. I don't think that online was always, I didn't pay for many ads. So online presence in social media wasn't really generating work as much as when you Googled me, you saw reviews, you saw a website, you saw social pages, um, you could look at pictures. Um, so I think that was really important. In my area, um, I'm still we're still probably one of the only painting companies that has things like a website and like a well kind of like thorough kind of social media presence and photos and things like that. Um so yeah, I think I I I don't know. It it seems to me that um I don't know, people people like to buy things from like people they like and things they like. So um and and I I always love good branding. Like I'm just always impressed with it. Uh I like a good logo, I like something that that is colorful and interesting and and works, and that impresses me in business. So I just I just basically try to do the same thing. What would you know home services is, you know, I wanted it to be customer service focused, not like you're trying to call a technician who doesn't have time to call you back. So that was that was a leading edge in my area because there's very few companies of a size that have someone who's just taking calls. Um, and so for several years, I took every single call and it went to my personal cell phone, and very few calls were were left unattended to.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Wow. So you got it up to 650 within the first two years, and you mentioned that you know you had a strong online presence, not not doing ads, but just have just having that presence and that uh prof look of professionalism um in your yard signs. So it sounds like you were doing sort of inbound marketing, like you're attracting people to you, uh not really doing any kind of outbound marketing, like no no Facebook ads or door-to-door. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

Time, Family, And Fast Growth Pains

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Correct. I I didn't do I didn't do those. I I did some local, you know, sort of sponsorship things. Um, but I I think it's also about reading, like sort of the reading of the room for marketing. I live in a rural community. So the issue, the challenge here is getting people to know you're there. It's not competing with 12 other contractors who are knocking on doors. Um, so you have to know that would be very different if I lived in a metro area. I I don't know how I would think about the strategy there. So here it was about becoming known, having um, you know, especially yard signs on some of our larger country highways. Um and like once we got a building and we had a sign outside on our biggest street in the whole area, you know, things like that that just they work for you um constantly. Um, and then, you know, just um your reputation and word of mouth in a small community, your first year, you're going above and beyond because those people are telling everyone they know, because in a rural area you don't have enough good contractors. So um there's there's that this supply-demand gap is such that if you just are um reliable and um communicative and professional, you will get calls because everybody's looking for that person. Um so I mean, anyway, like a lot of things lined up correctly. If I had had a huge competitor who was very successful in my area, this would be a very different story. Slash, I probably wouldn't have started this business. So I I read that market that year uh correctly, if that makes sense. That's one reason I chose to do the company. It's not, it's not because painting was the only thing I was considering.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah. Well, it definitely worked because I would I would have expected not knowing the the marketing channels, I would have expected you were doing some sort of outbound on how fast you based off how fast you grew. But it sounds like you were you were just filling the need that was there and also put it putting forward that professional look and and being available, you know, answering the phone, uh having you know, being seen in the community with yard signs, being uh having that social presence. So, what are some of the biggest challenges you faced in your time growing Apex painting? I know you mentioned hiring good people was was a bit of a challenge. Um could you talk more about some of your bigger challenges?

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Yeah, absolutely. Um okay, so my biggest challenge, uh, number one, is that I started a business um at um, let's see, I can do this this basic math. I guess I was 36 and I had five kids with our youngest still at home. And um, so he was about two when I started the business. Um so the the number one biggest challenge is that the the scenario was not right to have a very large business. Um my husband works in a completely different field. He was not part of the business at all. This was totally my hobby. And um, you know, I just I really wanted to just go in and try it. I didn't um I was told that I probably didn't have enough time to do a business, which there's a lot of there's a lot of wisdom to that. Um, so my biggest challenge over those years was basically that my business was was competing for my time with my family. And I didn't really have enough time to give my business basically the whole time. So I it always felt like kind of stolen time. Um, that if I had an extra long day, I would need to have a shorter day to make up for it. Um, I did work very long hours, but I also worked a lot like at night and in the middle of the night because I didn't want to miss family dinner or bedtimes or a basketball game. Um, these things are just logistically, you know, I was just being unreasonable that um and I I think the size of my business, I was just uh I just really didn't want to resist that it it had legs to grow and could be something um that was on the larger side of like a very small business, I guess. Um so then my challenge became trying to hire people to get me out of my seat, which is kind of the right move, but it just has to be done. It just has to be done over time, and I wanted it to happen very quickly. So um I think my biggest challenges and mistakes had to do with the size of the business, how quickly I allowed it to grow and um how difficult it was to very rapidly replace myself in my business. Um, I think over a reasonable amount of time, that's that's a wonderful plan. Um, and I had like I had real moments where that was definitely happening. So, you know, by the end of the time, I had an administrative assistant, a project manager, and me. So that was the leadership team. And all I was really doing was estimating. Um, I had quite a few like ownership duties, but most of the time I was on my own estimating, checking at the office and running, you know, maybe a weekly staff meeting. Um, our crews were being run by the project manager, you know, it it in a way it was a pretty simple structure. And um and I think, you know, getting there, um, you know, I don't know. It took it took a while to get there, you know, lots of trial and error. And every time, you know, if you have to hire five project managers to get one good one, let's just say I think Jason Paris told me one time when he had to hire his first key leader, that it took him 10, like 10 hires to find that guy. So as you go along, you know, finding the right people, every time they're not right, and in between, you're covering all that work. Um, and so it's just uh, yeah, it's just a rocky road. Um, but I I always said if I was a 25-year-old dude, I'd be killing this because I was doing pretty damn well as a very busy mom of five.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:08

Um, and then I was also kind of barely alive. Uh my husband would say it was not it was not our best, you know. It was not, it was there was no balance to it. Um, but uh luckily he is game for some major adventure and it was an adventure.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah. Five kids, not to mention the youngest was two. So uh having uh having had two-year-olds, I can that they are pretty demanding. Um so it sounds like you know, uh building the business so quickly and then getting those right people in the right seats is a challenge, especially in the beginning when you don't have the uh heuristics developed to identify a good production manager because you it's your first production manager you've ever hired. So but getting, you know, making those mistakes, you know, uh as quickly as possible and then correcting them, uh which it seems like you did, would um help you get through that. So that makes sense. Um do you have any thoughts on since it might be sort of fresh, is what what does make a good production manager? What did you learn during that process?

What Makes A Great Project Manager

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Um yeah, I mean a good PM. Um a good PM has low pain tolerance. I learned that because sometimes as an owner, you try to hire someone that looks like you because you were the one doing the job. But an entrepreneur has extremely high pain tolerance. And so that's one reason like I'm not that good at running the field, because if everything's really hard, I'm kind of like, yeah, that's how business is. Life is hard. Um, low pain tolerance managers help, they they will naturally systematize. And and relieve themselves and their people of pain and constantly looking for how they can do that. Um, so that's a big you're I think one thing you can almost feel when you're an owner is that you're constantly hiring people that look nothing like you, which obviously makes sense. You need everything that you're not in your business. Um I'm extremely extroverted and you know, love people, could talk all day. So, like when I hired, um actually, I mean, you're you're one of your bookkeepers, was my bookkeeper um for my business. He was nothing like me. I mean, he didn't laugh at my jokes. Um, why? Because he's excellent at numbers and finance. He he shouldn't be anything like me. If your bookkeeper is as extroverted as you are, you might have a bad bookkeeper. Um, I mean, you know what I mean, within reason. I'm not saying they don't they don't have different personalities, but like I found that very refreshing that he actually didn't really want to chit-chat. He didn't really, you know, want to hear stories. He wanted to really focus and talk about numbers for a whole hour. That was exactly what I needed. And at that point in my business, I was a little later on. Boy, like that was like I began to really, yeah, I had dreams of like having people in my business who were nothing like me. And I I would like that would be so exciting to me to have someone who loved numbers and didn't really want to go talk to people. Um, so yeah, I I think a great PM, um they're a little bit unusual because they usually they are a very good technician often. Um, and if they aren't a great technician, a great technician built the built what they are holding people accountable to. So um often it's a technician who is actually kind of um more naturally able to keep people accountable, work with customers. They're very out, a little bit outward-focused, um, sort of great, you know, bedside manner. But then they technically have a good eye and know quite a bit. Usually they know more than anyone else in the room. Um, but then they also don't mind essentially a form of, you know, I used to joke it's a little bit like daycare, you know, a form of like very patient handling of employees, um, which takes just a ton of patience. You're just constantly kind of reminding people of basic things. And um, and that doesn't, you're you're you're probably a pretty level person if you're a good PM. You are not salespeople. We're like, I'm deeply salesperson. It's like very highs and lows, like high, high energy, you know, get the sale, everything is going to shit, feel terrible, think you're horrible, then have a big, you know, everything closes. Um, this is just very that's salespeople live off of that kind of energy that we're very, you know, emotive. That's just that's a great salesperson. Um, your PM is probably not like that. Your PM is probably so steady that it's a little scary, even when things are like hitting the fan that he's like, yeah, another day in paradise, you know. That's that's the guy. So often, but um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

No, that's helpful. Um, so could you tell me more about your experience selling your business? I think that's a a thing that a lot of people look to that's their end state, their ideal situation is they get to sell their business. But I think there's a lot of mystery behind what it's like to sell your business. Uh, could you just take us through that process? Like, how did that end was that something that you were trying to do? Did it just fall on your lap? And then what what was the the general process and and and what was that like?

Deciding To Sell And To Whom

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Yeah, no, um great process. Uh totally, totally scary. Um, did not think it was really possible um because it does feel uh it feels first of all, the idea of finding a buyer or coming across someone who wants to buy your small quite small business. I didn't, I mean, I was right at about$800,000 my last two, you know, full fiscal years. Um that's kind of a bad size. Um, much easier to sell something at about 3 million or above. Um, but uh I think I mean the ingenuity in business is everything. So I think that knowing that you have an asset, you have assets, what are they? And then understanding that you yourself are an asset. So I didn't I didn't just sell my business, I really sold myself and my business. And John McFarland didn't just buy Apex, he hired me. So it was not, those were not separate. I mean, they were separate agreements, but they were a package deal. Um it it was not a turnkey sale where he had to take over and just, you know, start everything from the ground up in the sense of like not having me there. So I, you know, part of my role was transition manager. So I am still, you know, even to this day, I have some responsibilities with the transition of Apex becoming McFarland at my shop with our people. Um and and then he hired me. But but again, I I was not looking to like have no job. So part of what he was selling to me was um, I'll bring you on and make you a McFarland estimator, which is actually a better job for me than what I was doing as an owner. And I mean, we were it was like mutual pitching. I mean, John was pitching to me how much money are you actually making? You could make a lot more money working for me, and you would be doing a lot more of what you're actually good at. Um so, and then vice versa, you want to move west. We're west of their main main shop. Um, I already have a brand, I already have a phone number that's people are calling. Um, I already have a customer base, I already have a shop, I already have vehicles, and I already have crew members. So um, you know, it was a good fit. And how did it happen? You know, we actually talked about it at an owner's retreat um in January of 2025. So it was a, you know, you want to say like how important networking is, it's pretty important. Um and I think, you know, I haven't I haven't like thought through all of this, but it it seems to me that being aware of who is around you in your industry is good for your end game. And just realizing that business is business, and maybe you want your competitor to buy your business. Maybe you want to buy your competitor's business, you know. Um, it's just, you know, getting out of this mindset of like, but you know, I I don't really have this, and I'm not saying I meet a ton of people like this, but painters are a little bit notorious of like, I don't talk to the other painters who walk into the Sherwin. Um, I would say that is a huge mistake. And another sign of like a little bit of unprofessionalism in our trade, because the professionalized trades often they all talk to each other. Um teaming up and like being a group and having pride in your your fellow industry sort of mates is is a good thing. So um, yeah, I mean, that was that was kind of the premise. And then yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't want to go talking for forever. So, you know, what else do you want to know about it?

SPEAKER_01 31:45

No, no, that's that's great. Uh, so it sounds like John he basically wanted to get additional area that was nearby, so he was kind of acquiring, he was ex uh growing his business through acquisition. So you guys met up at a retreat and he uh was you guys started talking, and then your um kind of end state was sell the business so you can you know no longer steal time and you you you would have more regular hours, but also still do the things that you like, which is selling, and uh so it seemed like it was a good fit. Um what was the the due diligence process like? Like what did what did that look like uh as far as you know providing financials or what things did John the the the buyer want to see before he actually you know came to the table to close and everything?

Due Diligence And Open-Book Transparency

Structure The Deal, Not A Merger

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Yeah, I mean, um the process of getting to the day we signed a contract was I mean, unless you love paperwork, it was horrible. Um and a little extra hard because I was trying to run my company and get it ready to sell, run it like I'm not gonna sell it. Um, get it ready so that if it all falls through, I still have a company. Um, I think it's very, very hard to do. I don't envy anyone who's tried to take a business sale to the table and it's failed. That there's no way that that's not just an unbelievable pain in the butt. Um I had the luxury of knowing John McFarlane well enough that and he I to a point where like by March, we were like, I think we're gonna do this. And we we really began having a level of trust that is probably not actually wise, if that makes sense. Like if you're gonna sell your business, you you need to keep your cards close to your chest. Um, but but we weren't, it wasn't just a sale, we were like combining forces. So I think we had the luxury of being a little more honest with each other um and helping each other before the sale. So that was one thing that um I deeply appreciated was uh John sent me some extra guys for a couple epoxy jobs that I did not have enough manpower for. Um I began using um some of his resources and supplier connections and things before the sale. Um these were kind of like I think they were both us kind of trying things on and also like uh actions of like goodwill. Basically, I am serious about this, I am this kind of person, I'm gonna do what I say, and I'm and I'm serious about being a good team member, um, and vice versa. So I I um I didn't, I don't, I don't think there was another way in the sense of like when you were trying to sell, well, I mean, I don't know. I've only done this once. Um, I was a very open book. Um, I sent him every financial he wanted. Um in my mind, if you were gonna buy my company, you needed to know everything about it. Um it was not, I I mean, there were no trade secrets, so I wasn't sure what I would, you know, what was I trying to cover up? Um if I didn't sell it, he still wasn't, you know, he didn't have a shop in my area. It's not like he was gonna know, you know, I didn't give him my customer list. I mean, so yeah, it's it's a lot of work, it's a lot of um huge level of transparency and honesty. And um, excuse me, hey, quit it. You guys are being so silly. Um and uh and a lot of humility. I mean, all the things you you know, as an owner know that you did wrong, you know, you're about to share with someone else. So like you've got to be humble about it. You're you're I doubt your business is worth what you think it's worth. That's just that's just kind of how it actually goes. And and you as a trades business, um, I mean, your assets are so minimal compared to businesses that have like meaningful machinery. And um I mean, you you your business runs essentially like asset lean. You're you know, you're providing a service. So like you think like I'm selling this amazing thing. Well, even your customer list, like if you call my customer list from someone who some Joe Blow, uh, how many of them does that mean anything to? So I think just accepting that I was selling my business to um to graduate what I had into essentially a merge, take everything into McFarland, get myself uh negotiate a job I really wanted with a company I was very excited to work for. And, you know, get off, get, get some cash so that I could, you know, feel that what I did was worthwhile, but also pay off debt and do things that were just truly practical. Um so uh, you know, that process was very humbling, but it did exactly what I needed. Um, another really good piece of advice on this topic was um same business mentor who told me I was gonna sell the business. He mentored me through the sale and um did a lot of you know the business side analytics for me. Um we talked at the very beginning about John was like, you know, should we just be co-owners? You know, he was asking, you know, what are you envisioning? And and um my my business miners said, do not merge these companies. He's like the cost and the difficulty of merging is so much higher. Um, it's not just high at the time, it's a much more expensive sort of sale, involves a lot more legal work, a lot more documentation, and then your ongoing sort of responsibilities are not going to be small. And so um I really appreciate that because it took, I took that off the table right away, and we never had to deal with the complication of merging and sharing ownership. And I would say that's another great, like honestly, like humble pie of like, you don't need to be the owner. Um, between us, John is the much better business owner. And I I you you really shouldn't be going into business with anyone you don't just extremely admire and feel like you you're you're gaining a lot. Um I would, you know, I wasn't gonna sell my business to someone who that wasn't the case. Um, so I was just very fortunate. But I again just don't 100% I don't want any ownership. I really want to be an employee and have a chance to really have a great job.

unknown 39:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Well, I think this is uh really enlightening. I I really appreciate you having this conversation and being so open and talking about it because I I think a lot of folks have uh a lot of misconceptions around selling. Um and I appreciate you you sharing. Um I think folks are gonna get a lot of value out of this conversation. Um, do you have any final thoughts before for the audience before we let you go?

SPEAKER_00 39:36

I think just knowing that business ownership has created you are an incredible asset. Um and it it's hard to explain how much a business owner can bring to the table as an employee, um, on a team, as a supporting role. Um, and being creative about how to wind down your business or sell your business or um create a great job for yourself. Maybe you don't even need to sell your business because you're gonna find a good job and and close things down in a more like, you know, sort of natural end. Um I I I think it's just a an exciting, there's an exciting world to it. There's a lot of freedom to not being the one to do everything and have it on your shoulders, but also to realize um that you might actually be better on a team in a particular role. Uh and you might be a lot more satisfied with it, you might make more money with it. Um, keeping all of that open, I think is just is just great to, you know, good to have options and and to be strategizing your own situation with a lot of optimism versus feeling like you've made a decision and now you're you're stuck there. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 40:59

That makes sense. Well, I re really appreciate your time today, Lauren. Um, I think folks are gonna get a lot of value out of this conversation and uh appreciate your time. And for the listeners, with that, we will see you next week.