How teachers and teaching is impacted by AI with Dr Jo Blannin

Dr Jo Blannin, along with a team from Monash University and the University of Melbourne, are leading an ARC Discovery Project exploring the impact of AI on teachers and teaching practices. In this podcast, she discusses the evolving role of AI in education, emphasising its integration into learning management systems and everyday teaching tools. While AI is often framed around student learning, her research shifts the focus to how teachers experience and adapt to these technologies. The study reveals a gap between policy-level AI initiatives and teachers' on-the-ground realities, with concerns about workload, professional learning, and systemic support. Dr Blannin highlights the need for balanced optimism and caution, advocating for practical strategies that empower educators to navigate AI’s rapid evolution—a must-listen for researchers interested in AI’s transformative role in education.

Transcript

Natalie McMaster
So hi listeners. Today I'm talking to Jo Blannin from Monash University about an ARC discovery project which began this year to examine how teachers and teaching is impacted by A.I. Hi Jo, how are you going?

Jo Blannin
Good. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Natalie McMaster
Not a problem. So I guess maybe we'll start if you can explain the background to why you've chosen to embark on this particular project.

Jo Blannin
So we've been working on framing this ARC grant for a number of years actually, and I'm working with Professor Neil Sewin, Professor Mike Phillips, and Associate Professor Carlo Perotta. And Carlo is at University of Melbourne, so just to mention, the other institution involved. And we've been working at it for a number of years because we could see things like ChatGPT coming before they kind of launched. And so what we are interested in seeing is what is it mean on the ground for the teacher and so much of what we see in the media and so much of what we hear, is what it means for the learner. And actually what we're looking at in this study is, what does it mean for the teacher and what does it mean for the role of the teacher and what does it mean for the day-to-day act of teaching? What does it mean to feel and to be and exist as a teacher in a teaching role? And so that's really what we're interested in and that's what's driving this project.

We're looking at how AI integration, particularly into secondary schools is occurring. Because we know that ChatGPT and open AI are kind of words of the year, but that's not how AI is most prevalent in a lot of schools. We know that it's embedded in a lot of learning management systems. It's becoming part of things like Microsoft Word, Microsoft Teams. It's embedded in Google Drive, and all of those systems. So people are using it but don't know that it's actually there. And it is actually impacting the things that teachers do and their teaching practice. And so this study is looking at how that is happening. What do teachers understand about the nature of AI and what its influence is and what we can do to support teachers in that space? So really taking it from that professional's experience of A.I., as opposed to what does it mean to be a learner, which I think is often what we hear about in other realms.

Natalie McMaster
Oh, that's interesting, Jo. And especially from being a teacher myself, that it can be quite daunting, you know, to have A.I. as being part of our practice now.
So I guess, what are the similarities or the differences between sort of system level,
So you know what we're being told we have to do as teachers, compared to how teachers are feeling sort of at the coalface?

Jo Blannin
Yeah. So that's one of the interesting kind of early emergent findings from our study, is that there are different levels that are experiencing different impacts from AI. So we've done some very in depth repeated interviews with stakeholders across various levels. So we've talked to the heads of learning in Departments of Education in Catholic Education offices and Independent Schools. And then we've gone to school leaders, school middle leaders, department heads, team leaders and then classroom teachers. And so we obviously understand that all of these people have leadership roles, but they have influence in different circles.

And so what we're finding is that their perspectives and experiences and understanding of A.I. is very different at each of those levels. And one of the kind of the first outputs and we're actually putting out a paper shortly. Is really the system level experience of A.I. and the understanding of its potential. Of the potential conflicts in what we do as teachers, the potential challenges in what we need to consider, is very different at a system level, to what it is at a school level. And then even at a school level, there's differentiation between a school leader and a classroom teacher. What does it mean to be a math teacher, on a Wednesday morning in front of year eight versus a school leader with a multi campus secondary school, they're leading? So we're finding that what schools are faced with is external policies and strategies coming down. So things like the National Framework on generative A.I. in schools and education are useful. They're obviously external to schools, but systems are engaging with them perhaps slightly more than schools are, and they're bringing them into schools through the Departments of Education and Catholic Education offices and similar spaces. And they come into schools that way but that's not quite where schools are at, and that's not quite where schools are wanting to or needing to start with their experiences with A.I., and so there's a fair bit of disconnect between what schools need and what systems are in a place to provide at this particular point in time.

Natalie McMaster
And how are teachers feeling just in terms of the perspective? Because when you're talking about the framework, when I've read the framework, it's very much about, what you as a teacher need to be teaching your students about AI and the ethical  elements of it. Also, I know in the framework there's a section on there that talks about parents and how teachers should be educating parents also about A.I. I wonder when you're saying that schools and teachers are not ready for that. You know those types of frameworks, what was sort of the perspectives of teachers when they were speaking about how they were feeling?

Jo Blannin
There’s this kind of the this balancing act going on is what we're hearing. And one of the major things that we're hearing from schools, school leaders, middle leaders, classroom teachers is that there is a sense of inevitability, inevitability of A.I. in education. That it is going to happen. There's no point trying to slow down the progress, trying to avoid the progress, circumvent it, put things in place to stop it because it is going to happen. It actually has happened. One person called it a mad rush. This sense that it's overwhelming and it's coming. But balance with that is this inevitability is that the teachers have this concern about massive teacher overload. And where I'm based in Victoria and of course around the country and around the world, schools and school teachers are feeling this.  The pressures of teaching and that's an ongoing challenge. 

And So everybody who talks about this inevitability of A.I. also talks about concerns about teacher overload and how these expectations to adapt to new technology, can lead to increased stress and perhaps burnout. And that people that aren't engaging with A.I. potentially that is coming from a pre-existing stress an overload. And so perhaps this is one extra kind of one extra thing on the pile that they're not quite ready to engage with. So that's really interesting to us as a research team because, a lot of what we hear when you kind of hear the pundits talk about A.I. and education is, ‘oh! It can teach your child this’. Or, you know, ‘it'll just be a tutor that will sit on the side and it'll do XY and Z for you and it will reduce all of your mundane tasks. But actually on the ground, what teachers are saying is that it is actually creating more work at this particular moment in time. And because teaching is an interpersonal profession, it is a relational experience that has to occur between human beings. That you can't just replace it with a technology, nor should we want to. And so the concerns about teacher stress and teacher overload in trying to add A.I. onto everything is not that simple. So we can't just say A.I. will reduce your workload because to get to a point where A.I. may be able to offset some tasks that you do, and there's all sorts of ethics and bias around that, we need to talk about. But to reach that point of where we can offset some tasks to A.I., there is a massive learning curve. Structural changes. Teacher support professional learning, that we have to go through to get there that the teachers are telling us is very challenging at the moment.

Natalie McMaster

When we're talking about professional learning, what are they talking about in terms of this support for teachers to be able to learn all of the things that they need to in relation to A.I.

Jo Blannin
So interestingly at a school last week, the distinction that teachers were making was that, ‘please acknowledge the informal learning that I'm now doing as part of my professional role’. And this happened at another school as well. So this is something that's not just last week, but it really kind of reinforced the theme for me that, there's formal professional learning, so we can sit. We can sit teachers down in a staff room and say let me show you how to use AI to do some data analytics. Let me show you how AI can be used to generate a pretty picture to put in your PowerPoint. 

That's considered more formal learning. But the informal learning that a teacher has to do, they're telling us that that's much more impactful on their day-to-day experience of teaching. And they're asking us to consider that informal learning has to be much more recognised, particularly, one of the middle leaders I was speaking to really highlighted the fact that we keep talking about being a lifelong learner. And if you want to be a lifelong learner, you can't expect that lifelong learning to be ‘formal learning’. It can't be that you get up every single morning and sit down and have someone teach you something. So lifelong learning has to incorporate informal learning, and if we want that in our teachers, we have to acknowledge that informal learning has a place and the informal can look different for everybody.

Natalie McMaster
Did they give any examples of some of the informal learning that they undertook?

Jo Blannin
Yeah, we started making a list and we will go back and gather some more data on this in our next phase. But some of the things they've mentioned were things like watching YouTube videos, team teaching, Tiktok came through very strongly. Looking at things like any of the social media, so LinkedIn and Pinterest were mentioned. Having a go. I'm going to try it, and if it fails, I'm not putting too much pressure, so I'm giving myself a low risk space to try using this tool or using this approach, or having AI do this thing for me in this space that I'm happy with. And so the informal learning was across the range of spaces and often to achieve one outcome. They were using multiple different facets to get there. 

Natalie McMaster
When you're thinking about how we can use your research to support teaching and teachers, in terms of the impact of A.I. Are there strategic considerations or systems that you are thinking of recommending in your findings?

Jo Blannin
Yeah, I think so. One of the things and this is what we're trying to craft with our paper, is that there has to be some kind of balance between optimism and caution. And we haven't really touched on the idea of the caution around the nature of AI in general, which I'm sure your listeners have engaged with in other ways, but there is optimism around the potential for A.I. along things like personalised learning pathways, in the back end of so many systems that can provide more information about learners progression, learners understanding. Where we can look at things like John Hattie's feedback questions, where am I going? Where to next? All of those we can actually get data on that now using things like AI. So we have to balance optimism and caution. At a system level and a school level, we've got to take this notion of the hype around A.I., and we've got to step back and say we are the professionals in the space and we can see that the hype is there because it is exciting and it does fun things. And the fun things are great. But as educators, we have to balance optimism and caution around the space of AI in education.Obviously, our studies ongoing, we've got another three phases. But so far, really interesting conversations. Obviously always impressed talking to school teachers and school leaders, who have just these amazing perspectives on what's possible for our learners. It's been really exciting.

Natalie McMaster
Oh, fantastic. And I suppose, too, you know, there is quite a bit of pressure for the school leaders to actually support their teachers in the classroom as well when they're making these types of systemic, strategic considerations about what their school's going to do.

Jo Blannin
That's right. And they were very deeply involved in kind of the practical aspects of the daily school operations. So we can talk to them about the nature of A.I. and strategic connections to national priorities and national frameworks. But as soon as they finish talking to us in an interview. The bell rings. They've got yard duty, or they've got a parent on the phone, or they've got a meeting they have to run to, or a class they have to teach. So that's the nature of being in a school, embedded in a school. So they have to be able to balance all of these things, with the practical nature of what they're doing. So hopefully what our study will eventually do is find policy frameworks, step by step integration strategies that help them navigate between those layers. So talk about how do you go from a strategic approach, high level understanding, down to the nitty gritty and how do you go back up again to kind of evaluate what you're doing. And so that's, that's something that's really exciting I think for us as we go forward.

Natalie McMaster
Yeah, definitely. Because we hear of a lot of schools who are now embarking on having their own sort of school policy in relation to AI, which a lot of times does seem to focus more so on assessment and plagiarism and students, especially in that secondary space using A.I. to support their assessment work and whether or not there are ethical things around it. I think your research is really going to help them to think more broadly about AI in particular, looking at the system level and how that will sort of impact on, I guess maybe what their priorities are going to be for the school moving forward.

Jo Blannin
Yeah, I think that's right. And like I've been doing keynotes around the place as many of us have. And I've got one particular keynote I keep getting asked to do is one I call ‘Beyond the fear of cheating’, right? Because the fear of cheating is a perfectly valid thing, because the way we assess, the way we evaluate has worked for us for many, many years. But it's not going to work much longer. I don't believe. Right? So, looking at things like policies, you've got to kind of think a bit bigger than just preventing cheating. You've got to start thinking a bit more strategically about what is that? What is the optimism side of that caution? And that's coming back to that kind of pendulum, you know. Which side do you want to swing? Do you want to swing all the way to the caution? Do you want to swing all the way to the optimism? Or do you want to find somewhere in the middle? And I think for some schools they'll have to go one side, to the other. And then find a settle in the middle. And some schools seem to be heading right to optimism. And I think they'll probably find they have to come back to the caution side. And some are doing the opposite straight to the caution. They'll find some optimism and find a middle balance. But that's just my personal sense in these conversations. But we'll use the data to tell us a little bit more about what that actually looks like in the future. But I think it's a fascinating space because it's changing so quickly. But it's changing so many aspects of teaching and the role of teachers. Not only in schools but obviously in higher education as well.

Natalie McMaster
Fantastic, Jo. Thank you for talking to me today. That's wonderful. And I wish you all the best with the rest of the study.

Jo Blannin
Thank you very much. It's been great to chat with you.

Natalie McMaster
Bye for now.