Listening to Neurodivergent Learners with Dr Matthew Harrison

In this episode we chat to Dr Matthew Harrison from the University of Melbourne, and explore how cooperative video games can build teamwork, negotiation, and social capability in neurodivergent learners. We also explore strength-based, interest-driven learning to genuine co-design with neurodivergent students and offer practical insights for inclusive classrooms. The episode also tackles the realities of scaling research into schools and the opportunities and risks of using Gen AI in supporting neurodivergent young learners. If you’re wanting to learn more about how digital technologies can advance inclusion, this is a must-listen.

References

Harrison, M. (2022). Using video games to level up collaboration for students: A fun, practical way to support social-emotional skills development. Routledge.

Harrison, M., Rowlings, J., & Aivaliotis-Martinez, D. (2024). Press B to Belong: Using Esports to Promote Inclusive School Communities. Emerald Publishing Limited. https://doi.org/10.1108/9781804559260

Cohn, E. G., & Harrison, M. J. (2025). From principle to practice: Creating neurodiversity-affirming learning environments for students with echolalia. Research in Autism, 126, 202628. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.reia.2025.202628

Transcript

Natalie McMaster: Hello and welcome to the Technology and Learning Podcast series. I'm Natalie, a member of AARE Technology and Learning Special Interest Group. Welcome back to the podcast. And today we're diving into a conversation that feels both urgent, and hopeful. We're going to be talking about how digital technologies are reshaping inclusive education, particularly for neurodivergent learners. And to help us unpack all of this today, we're joined by Matthew Harrison, whose work explores the intersection of neurodiversity, digital innovation and inclusive learning design. So I'd like to start our discussion today by talking about video games. Often when we talk about video games, we hear a lot of talk associated more with things like, entertainment rather than learning, video games being a distraction, resulting in isolation and disengagement. But I guess, Matt, what you've been studying is around them being cooperative or sort of social ecosystems. Can you just explain to us how cooperative video games and other digital technologies are reshaping not only student engagement, but the development of social capabilities in neurodivergent learners. 

Matt Harrison: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me on, Natalie. I'm really excited to be here. This is such an exciting space we're in right now. I'm very lucky that I get to work with some wonderful young people in our living lab. And we've been exploring exactly that, how we can use team-based or co-op video games, in conjunction with other digital technologies, just to really think about how we can develop the teamwork skills that everyone needs. But also to be able to teach these skills in a meaningful context, and also in a way that allows our young people to be themselves. We don't want to change who they are, but we want to teach these universally applicable or useful collaborative problem solving skills that we know that everyone uses throughout their lives. Things like negotiating. Things like turn-taking. Things like listening to others. These are so important. So in terms of how we're using games, it's really interesting. We've been experimenting with about 60 different commercially developed video games. And these are games that create the conditions where our players have to work together as a team. And what we have discovered is that when we use games with something called designed interdependence, where they have to work together, it gives a really meaningful context for our young people to be able to practise these skills. And then we've been looking at how we can get them to actually transport those skills to other contexts, to be able to use these skills in a science prac or, you know, in a digital technologies classroom, which is my home base. And it's been an exciting way for us to teach skills to everyone in a group. 

Natalie McMaster: Oh, fantastic. So if cooperative games work because they tap into, sort of interest and agency and individual strengths. What does shifting from deficit frameworks to strength-based interest-driven learning mean for teachers, when they're selecting and using digital tools for inclusive classrooms? 

Matt Harrison: So I think that's really important that for a lot of the young people, neurodivergent young people in particular. They hear so many negative comments about themselves. Often teachers say things, you know, with the best intentions, but the way that our young people hear those comments or interpret them. Really impacts on the sense of self-image. What we want to do is think about how we can draw on those strengths, like strengths in technologies, strengths in video games, build from strengths in oral language and conventions around playing these games, and use those as stepping stones to learn other things. So it's really the idea of, you know, how we think about how we learn. We build on what we know. If someone has a strength or interest in gaming, a particular game, and we're teaching a concept around physics, we can talk about, relate it back to the game, their experiences in the game world. And they will have a language around this. And then building from that, it really makes it meaningful of the young people, so they're connecting to something they understand.

Natalie McMaster: So I guess what stands out there is that a strengths-based approach requires teachers to really understand, what matters to their students, their interests and motivations and lived experiences. How have student voice and lived experiences shaped the design and evaluation of initiatives, such as the next level collaboration? And what does this tell us about co-design in educational technology? 

Matt Harrison: Yeah, I think this is such an important question, because we know that for a long time, we asked our neurodivergent young people about their experiences of learning. It's been something that's been done to them rather than with them. And so we did some research about a year and a half ago now. We got to go to lots of different schools and talk to young people after observing a lesson in which digital tools were being used as a way of supporting learning. And just to really ask them how they experienced that lesson and what their ideas for how those digital learning tools could be used more efficiently. What we learned from those young people was really; A) They’re rarely asked. And we saw that in the research. We did a literature review and we found so few technology based articles for supporting neurodivergent young people that actually asked the intended users of the technologies what they thought. And we also went through talking with the young people, just their ideas for small things that can be done, that make a big difference. And when we're thinking about things like next level collaboration, the games based social capacity building programme we developed, we wanted to co-design that with the actual young people who we wanted to benefit from it in the first place. So we went and worked with them and got their feedback. And I think there's a real lesson here for teachers about co-design and how we position technology in the classroom. Is actually making sure we have things like exit tickets, asking for their feedback on their learning. But also asking them for ideas for how we could reposition technology to be more effective. And so it’s an iterative process. We talk about design thinking. It really is that iterative process of coming back to the students with feedback from your lived experience as a teacher. What worked for you? What didn't work? And then asking them about their learning experiences, and then just, iterating until we find a way to position the tools in our classroom so that everyone is safe, happy and able to learn. 

Natalie McMaster: Fantastic. Your project, so Next Level Collaboration, shows us as educators what's possible when research, design and student voice come together. You know, you're very well placed to talk about some of those key challenges and opportunities, in translating that research on digital technologies and neurodiversity, into a scalable, sustainable practise in schools and universities. 

Matt Harrison: There's a really great paper by a researcher who sadly passed away late last year. His name is David Berliner, and he wrote about education research being the hardest research to do. I love this paper because he was saying that the physical sciences are so easy because, you know, particles of light don't have a fight with their parents on the way to school. You know, chemical compounds don't miss lunch and get hungry or don't get in fights, they're best friends. And so when we talk about school ecosystems and doing research and bringing research into school ecosystems, we know these are incredibly unpredictable and complex. And so the question we always stop and ask ourselves when we're talking about research translation into schools or classrooms, is it doesn't really matter what works. What matters is what works here with these students in this context. So it's the idea of contextual fit. And it's the idea of taking research, looking at the research evidence, and asking ourselves critically, how likely is able to have a similar impact. And when we look at a lot of educational technology research a lot of it is conducted in schools in the U.S. or the U.K. Particularly the U.S., because that’s where a lot of the money is. And so when we are thinking about that cultural and contextual fit, there's a whole lots of different things to think about, like school budgets for technology, teacher capability, time for teachers, numbers of students in the class - all these things really matter, so that's why when we talk about those challenges and opportunities, it's the challenge of our teachers developing a research literacy, so they can critically evaluate research. And think about how it would likely to apply to their school. And also the challenge of our education systems, allowing teachers to have the freedom to make professional judgments. As the people who work with these young people day in, day out, they understand those contextual factors, they need to be able to make decisions. So, that's really the challenge of the moment. Right now is how do we build that capacity in teachers, but also how do we give them the freedom to be able to make those decisions as professionals? 

Natalie McMaster: Yeah, it's an age-old problem, isn't it? 

Matt Harrison: The Australian Education Research Organisation (AERO) guidelines, they say it's all about giving teachers research and allowing them to be able to make decisions based on how they interpret that research in their school. 

Natalie McMaster: So how do you see emerging technologies, including AI and adaptive learning platforms, shaping the future of inclusive education for neurodivergent learners? And where's your research heading next? 

Matt Harrison: Really interesting question around AI, because we can see the potential risks, but we can also see the potential opportunities. And it's really about getting that balance right. How we make sure that teachers and the neurodivergent young people are at the very centre of the research. And so in terms of my research, I'm really interested in using generate AI tools to help assist with things like differences in executive function. That means how we plan and sequence and organise information to be able to think about how we, for example, prioritise different tasks. AI can take some of that load, we know, but we also know it's imperfect. We also want our young people and teachers becoming critical consumers of AI to understand data privacy issues, to understand that AI, doesn't necessarily make sense. It puts words in order that it thinks is most probable to be correct. But it's the idea that it's not sense checking what it's written. It's actually helping people to understand what AI is and isn't. And then they can make informed decision around how to use it, position it in their learning environment or classroom,  to be able to help people without unintended consequences. One of my favourite examples of that is young people using AI to break up tasks into chunks and to help them to plan out the order, but then also having a critical friend to go through their plan with and to think about where AI may be wrong. 

Natalie McMaster: And is that something that you've been doing with neurodivergent learners or? 

Matt Harrison: Yeah, the first time I saw this happening, it wasn't my idea, as a young person in one of my programmes showing me how they were using good old Chatty G to help improve their understanding of the world. And they were using it, the prompts, to initiate a conversation with someone, which I thought was fantastic. And it’s just the anxiety around how to start a conversation. It just gave them a little bit of confidence, which I think is so important for a lot of our young people who I said, you know, before, have experienced a lot of exclusion in their lives. 

Natalie McMaster: And so in terms of where your research is heading next, are you doing more sort of in that video game, social capability space?

Matt Harrison: Always. What’s really exciting. We have a living lab here at the University of Melbourne Faculty of Education. It’s great. We actually have the ability to have, groups of young people come in here every week and we try to get them to give feedback and be part of the research and set that agenda, which is really cool. 

Natalie McMaster: Oh, fantastic. Well, Matthew, thank you so much for sharing your insights with us today. And I guess for challenging us to think differently about digital technologies and neurodiversity, where we're thinking more about the users of the technology, and having students sort of help us co-design, the education that we're doing as well as how we design digital technologies themselves. Today we hope that this podcast can help our listeners navigate both the opportunities, also responsibilities ahead when we're talking about AI. I hope that this has sparked some ideas for your own classrooms, your research or your institution if you're working in higher ed. So thank you, Matthew. 

Matt Harrison: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. 

Natalie McMaster: No problems. Bye.