The Minimalist Educator Podcast
A podcast about paring down to focus on the purpose and priorities in our roles.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast
Episode 082: Courage Is a Muscle with Ming Shelby
Courage isn't just a virtue, it's a skill that can transform our educational environments when practiced intentionally. In this compelling conversation with returning guest, Ming Shelby, we explore how educators can cultivate courage in challenging situations and discover unexpected joy through letting go.
Ming shares a powerful personal story about facing an unexpected confrontation with a colleague. Rather than responding defensively or avoiding the conflict, she demonstrated the "power of the pause" by suggesting they revisit the conversation "when we're both resourceful." This simple yet profound technique created space for emotions to settle before engaging in what became a productive dialogue that preserved dignity on both sides. Most importantly, Ming addresses the timing of difficult conversations – waiting too long allows feelings to fester, while addressing issues promptly (within hours, not weeks) prevents additional complications.
The conversation takes a provocative turn when Ming suggests that a necessary courageous shift in education involves "teachers letting go of control." Through illuminating examples ranging from kindergarten flexible seating to high school assessment practices, she illustrates how thoughtful release of control benefits everyone in the educational ecosystem. For educators hesitant to make changes, Ming recommends starting small: "It's not a one-time conversation...what if we tried this one thing?" This gradual approach honors the personal nature of teaching while still encouraging growth.
We dive into positive psychology's role in education, exploring the "broaden and build theory" which explains how positive emotions expand our vision of what's possible with students. Ming shares how she transformed negative team meetings into spaces of celebration by simply changing the opening ritual to sharing positive experiences – a reminder that small structural changes can dramatically shift school culture. As Ming notes in her pare-down pointer: "Courage is contagious... courage is also a muscle. So keep practicing."
This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services.
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Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast, where the focus is on a less-is-more approach to education. Join your hosts, christine Arnold and Tammy Musiawski, authors of the Minimalist Teacher and your School Leadership. Edit a minimalist approach to rethinking your school ecosystem each week, as they explore practical ways to simplify your work, sharpen your focus and amplify what matters most so you can teach and lead with greater clarity, purpose and joy.
Speaker 2:In this week's episode we have returning guest Ming Shelby. We continue our conversation about positivity and having courage. Her pare-down pointer is how we need to practice being courageous. Ming Shelby is a TEDx speaker, a National Board Certified Educator who has dedicated her career to inspiring students, teachers and administrators through learning experiences. Ming is currently the Director of Professional Learning in the suburbs of Chicago. She believes that courage is a critical ingredient for student transformation. Ming has facilitated workshops for adults and youth in Asia, australia, europe and the United States. She also builds courage beyond the classroom to support kids and adults through her podcast Courage Up. Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Minimalist Educator podcast. We are joined today by Ming Shelby, a returning visitor. Welcome, ming, how are you?
Speaker 3:I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be back to see both of you and to continue our conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're very excited to have you back with us. We spoke a couple of seasons ago about courage and courageous conversations and we're really excited to build on that conversation. Can you tell us a little bit about what you've been up to since we spoke to you last?
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh. Okay, since the last time we've spoke, I've just continued to talk about courageous conversations, and they pop up in all sorts of areas. I see it with my boys. I have twin boys who are in second grade and their interactions, their relationships. I see it in schools, with teachers to teachers, teachers to administrators, administrators to administrators. It's just like everywhere, all these interactions and chances.
Speaker 3:And I myself had a really tough, courageous conversation and, if you don't mind me sharing, I teach this internal university course and I was caught off guard by another teacher and she was upset with a decision that I had made and I wasn't expecting it in the moment. It was right at the beginning of class and she was using a lot of words loudly at me and I kind of froze in the moment and usually I try to engage and I just paused and said let's talk about this when we're both resourceful and she's like okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. We had two hours of class together. Then she came back up and said I would, I want to take you up on that conversation. Great, we scheduled it and we had a courageous conversation where she got to share her perspective, I got to share mine and I have to tell you, in that moment I don't really know how I got through those two hours because I was so shaken up. You have that feeling when you're prepared to do something and then something unexpected happens and someone's yelling at you and telling they didn't like your choice and how could you? And almost like challenging your character of who you are as a person. And it was so great to be open to listening, to be open to hearing her perspective and we both were able to come with a compromise and I didn't change my decision.
Speaker 3:It wasn't because we had this conversation all of a sudden that my decision had changed, but rather that I think we approached each other with kindness, with empathy, with understanding, and I walked out of the conversation and I can't speak for her, but I'm guessing like this relief over me of this is resolved. I was able to maintain my dignity, her dignity, and I think about how often when something like that happens, a big confrontation and what happens for me is I stew, I replay it over in my head over and over again. I call my great girlfriend, a close friend, who's like? And I rehash like can you believe this happened? And just kind of keep going down that spiral of a tunnel and to stop and say, nope, I'm going to try something different, I have skills, I know better, and it was. I think our relationship, my relationship with that teacher, is better and my relationship with myself, because I was really proud of how I handled that situation, because I was really proud of how I handled that situation.
Speaker 4:Thank you for sharing that. That is such a great reflection and, as you were sharing that story, it just reminded me of Alina Aguilar often talks about, like the power of a pause, right. So like you definitely took that moment to just say like let's take a moment and we, you know we'll come back, which then gives us that chance to like deescalate some of that emotionality that we can feel, because teaching is very personal and coaching is personal and but it's hard to forget. I'm sorry, it's not hard to, it's hard, it's hard to remember. It's easy to remember, it's easy to forget. Easy to forget, yes, in the moment, because we're just charged right.
Speaker 4:And you experienced this unexpected thing and it made me think too of this experience I had this year where an assistant principal told me that one of the teachers didn't want to talk to me anymore and I'm like I was just taking it back and I didn't know what to do with it at the moment. So I kind of somewhat instinctively like laughed because I was like just so confused. I'm like I don't understand what happened necessarily. Like you know, we had some hard conversations and I felt like there was a lot of courage happening in those hard conversations that was getting developed. But, man, I was just taken aback and I just didn't know what to do with it at the moment until I had some time to like think about it, you know. But thank you for sharing that story, in particular because I I imagine there's a lot of relatability for school leaders, coaches, teachers that have felt that.
Speaker 2:Christine yeah, yeah, no, I just wanted to add it on as well, that I I think a really good thing to point out here is don't let the pause go on for too long. Don't feel like you're having to duck and weave away from that person and avoid them. Don't leave it too long, right, because then it just gets more and more awkward and can bring up other feelings. So I feel like that's a really good point of yeah, like two hours, like what you said, that's a great time frame to let everyone cool a little bit, but it's not letting any other feelings settle in either.
Speaker 3:That's such a great point, Christine, because I know for me if I have the pause and then it's like a day goes by, two days goes by, a week goes by, a month goes by, and then we get really comfortable with letting that go. So that is a great distinction you added, Tammy.
Speaker 4:I was going to say in kind of conjunction with that, because then we get distracted by other things, right? So how would you handle, like what, if you didn't have time in that day? How would you approach making sure that you get that conversation had and resolved?
Speaker 3:so with this particular situation. So it was in the beginning, and then two hours later we touched base again and then she actually sent me an email right away and was like let's set up a time. So we then set up an additional time. But I would say, if you're the person and it doesn't really matter which side you're on right, but scheduling that calendar invite right away, of making time, because this is how I get super distracted, like you said, tammy, and then I'm like, oh my gosh, I was supposed to talk to this person three weeks ago, and then people start making up stories of why you're not reaching out and what's taking, so all of that. So I would say, a strategy that works for me is sending a calendar invite right away and even if they reject it, then they'll say they'll propose a new time. So we're getting. We're still keeping that conversation alive and moving.
Speaker 2:Just thinking about the idea of courage in our educational settings, whatever they may be. What sort of a courageous shift would you see as important for whether it's schools, or to make in the next couple of years? If you think about education as a whole, where should we courageously move ourselves towards, do you think?
Speaker 3:Okay, christine, I think people might be really mad at me saying this, but I really don't, and it's also really simple. A courageous shift would be for teachers to let go of control. Here's what I've noticed. Yeah, keep going.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was going to say yikes, that's a big yikes for so many people.
Speaker 3:I think here's my observation and Christine, I would love for you to weigh in on this of because you are in a different part of the world than we are. If this is also true, what I noticed is most teachers like having things set, which is great, like the organization, the planning. They went into teaching because they liked the color tabs, the different color post-it notes. There's that part of it, or you like, really love your content and subject area, like these kids must know everything about something really obscure that happened in 1892. You know so teachers are really passionate about their content, their students, their strategies, and that can sometimes get in the way of student agency, and courage and student agency to me are really closely linked and for that to happen, I think, letting go. So, like some examples that come to mind for me personally, when I taught in kindergarten and first grade you're going to think I'm crazy when I tell you this my kids did not have assigned seats. Each day they came in and they had a different seat, because what happened was classic teacher, I had assigned seats and I said every couple of weeks you'll get a new seat and of course, every couple of weeks I would forget. So the kids would say when are we getting new seats? You said we would. I'm like you're absolutely right. Then I would scramble, do it the next day and the pattern would repeat. So I was like why am I owning all of this? Let's try this. And of course, I had to set structures of how do we pick a good seat, where do you put your stuff, all that kind of stuff, structures of how do we pick a good seat, where do you put your stuff, all that kind of stuff. And it was amazing. The kids did exactly what they needed to do. They made great choices that I never had a single issue. Now, okay, wait, maybe take the never. There was one student and so one day he had to sit in a seat that was close to the board to support his learning, and then he was like yeah, that was good for me. Okay, let me try to figure out this the next day. So that's an elementary example.
Speaker 3:I talked to a colleague who taught high school English and I said what did you stop doing that brought you greater joy as a teacher? What did you let go? And he was like I stopped grading everything Because, thinking about high school English teachers, you have 90 plus 100 plus students. When you assign a paper it's multiple pages times that.
Speaker 3:I think one person did the math Like, even if I did three minutes a paper, it's still nine hours of grading or something like that three minutes a paper, it's still nine hours of grading or something like that. So he talked about how he just focused on the standard and graded for the standard of that paper and not like the grammar and the interesting hook and every little thing. And not only was it better for students because they got really precise feedback on what to get better, but also for him. So it wasn't like okay, here I go, another three hours tonight of grading and then the cycle and pattern continue. So those to me are two examples and maybe you would have some too of like thinking of when did you just let go and increased your joy?
Speaker 2:I was literally just talking about this the other day with some people at school, because we have an inquiry approach which is very much about, you know, kind of letting the kids lead you in what they're interested in and so on. But it's really tricky sometimes because you want to be organized and you want to be planned, and so you know you make this planner of this whole inquiry cycle and you know it's quite possible that you don't actually consult the kids at all in that process. So, yeah, I was literally just talking about this the other day, but I feel like I'm for myself as well, my practice. I'm constantly talking to people about circles of control, like when something's happening that you don't agree with or you don't like, like is this in my control at all? No, okay, I need to let it go. Just let it go, as you say, ming. So I think that's a really important one, even though, yeah, I don't know people, but I agree with you.
Speaker 3:Well, I think it takes a lot of courage. It's so much courage to say, okay, like I'm going to let that go, I'm going to not worry about that, I'm going to trust that it's going to work out and there's some element of belief with structure right, that it's going to turn out okay, it's interesting.
Speaker 4:I was coaching a teacher first year teacher and he doesn't have a teaching background, and so he had shared with me like how he had this very false conception of, or a misconception of, what teaching was right, and so he was envisioning just really like getting up and talking to kids about the things, all the things, that he was trying to teach them, but then he had he was failing miserably with, like classroom management because he didn't have any strategies. And he's like I feel like I've tried everything and I'm like, well, there there's things that you have to do, like you have to be consistent with whatever your structure is, and so there's that piece of it. But also, like when I observed him, like you're exerting a lot of control, there's a lot of like power struggle going on. So even though, as a teacher you know, we kind of have this illusion sometimes that we have all the control, that's a great word, Tammy.
Speaker 4:But like we're letting the kids perceive that we have all the control, but we need to give them choice, right, because then we get all this backlash and that's what was happening.
Speaker 4:And so I thought it was super courageous for him to just admit that to me as a brand new teacher and say, like I was so wrong, I don't know what to do.
Speaker 4:Like what are some things that I need to do to like kind of fix this situation? I'm like, well, this is where we need to start. And so it was really eyeopening for him to realize, like you just really have to like do that, you have to let a little bit of the control go and give them some structured choice, because I think there is that misconception for teachers to like, if I let go of control, who's controlling the situation? I can't let the kids do that, because it's going to be chaos. Well, if that's what your vision is, then that's what it's going to be. So how do you kind of have that conversation with teachers about like here's some things you know, like here's some things that maybe we can think about letting go of, like what feels comfortable to you? How do you approach that with teachers when, like it's so personal and like we want to grasp onto the things that we want to control.
Speaker 3:I haven't figured out the magic wand to education, but what I do know like is it takes multiple times, it's not a one-time conversation and it's a play with like what if we tried this one thing within that? So an example that I can think of when I was coaching is the kids had heard about like inference and just like these reading strategies for a while, and the teacher was like you know, I just feel like I'm in this routine of here's the standard. Well, here's what we're working on, here's the book we're reading, here's how we apply it. And we're just kind of like droning on. And so I was like, okay, would you be? It sounds like you want to try something new. Would you be willing to brainstorm with me? And so I did a lot of paraphrasing, of just reflecting back to me what they're saying to me. So it's not like this is Ming's idea, that she wants it, but really, tammy, you're saying this isn't really fun, like the kids aren't really excited.
Speaker 3:So we did this activity and it only took a couple of minutes and it was like my neighbor left her trash out today and I just thought you know what's inside of it. So I brought it to our class today and I found a receipt for some party balloons and she held up the balloons. There's some candle packages that were left in here, there's like a fork with some frosting. What do you think was happening with my neighbor? And the kids were like, oh my gosh, a birthday party. Was it a birthday party?
Speaker 3:And then she took more stuff and she's like, yes, how did you figure that out? And they talked about the clues and she said you just inferred. And they're like what, okay, and then that just like got them excited about. Okay, how can you find inferences in this text? How can? And it just was light, joyful, but still meaningful learning. So I think one is that the teachers, you know, have to be open to it to some level. Right, if someone's totally closed, we're not going to open it wide open, but we can like, maybe crack a little bit each time and for someone who's maybe a little bit more open, to ask some of those really thoughtful questions of well, what would it look like if students were able to do X, y and Z? What would you be doing when students are doing X, y and Z? What's the benefit for students to do X, y and Z? What's the benefit for you. You want to try it out together. Let's do it.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's very cool and when we're thinking about instruction and the experience of teachers and students, I know you've got an interest in positive psychology. How would you connect what you know about positive psychology with curriculum, with instruction, with the day-to-day experiences of people in schools?
Speaker 3:I love this question, christine, because I think it's woven throughout. So one thing it constantly in the back of my mind is Sonia Libomirsky's work with broaden and build theory, which I think you're both familiar with, right. So really, really simplified is that when we're our emotions are negative, we're like crouched down. You're really tight and really narrow focused and you can't really see. It's almost like having the blinders on with the horse blinders that's what I think of is like you're just stewing in these negative emotions. But when positive emotions are in place, the blinders come off, your world opens up and you're able to see what might not have existed before. So you might not have seen what a student is capable of, you might not have seen this idea that was going to grab your attention and students.
Speaker 3:Access those positive emotions gives us greater open ability I think I just made that word up Great To see what's possible. And I think that's so cool in education because even though education's been around for centuries, there's always new things that can help us to stay engaged, stay excited within our learning. And then I think that is super closely tied into gratitude. There's tons of research around the power of gratitude With my boys. Sometimes they'll be like, well, we don't have this and we don't have that. I'm like you have so much like you ungrateful little rugrats. And I think sometimes like we feel that way in schools too, when the students ask for more or whatever. But if we're able to see the gratitude, what we're grateful for, and help students also access that, like how cool would that be in classrooms where they're just filled with gratitude, filled with courage, filled with joy, learning, I'm sure it would be taking off.
Speaker 4:I love that. So how have you, in, whether working with teachers or teaching, what are some of the practices that you use to work on, like just building that sense of like I'm grateful for this, or like, or even like spreading kindness, like cause. You're a very positive person and so you know, like we know positive, like energies transfer between people, and so I envision like Ming in the classroom and like everybody's just happy because you're just yeah. But so I envision like Ming in the classroom and like everybody's just happy because you're just yeah, but you know, like you know that's not reality, so you know. So what are some of the things that you do in your, in your every day with students and teachers that just help kind of build that sense of Okay?
Speaker 3:So the as you're saying this, tammy, immediately takes back to one of my first team meetings as an admin. A couple of the other people in the meeting were really upset about something that, an interaction that had happened with another admin and another teacher, and so they said let's just air our grievances. And they went and just complained. Like each person took a turn complaining about what was bothering them or a behavior they couldn't believe happened, and that was like a staple in the agenda of complaining and airing grievances. Wow, and airing grievances, wow. And I'm sure you are not surprised that the rest of the media was just like right, like totally, yeah, christine's like pushing her hands down, like, yes, your body is just like get me out of here please. And so we did that for a couple of meetings. And then I was like what if we just shared something really awesome that we saw, like can we try that? And that switched up the whole dynamic.
Speaker 3:I know it sounds so silly, but recapturing something that happened that you're grateful for, that was joyful, as you're sharing it, your brain doesn't know that you're retelling a story To your brain. You're living that twice, increasing your happiness, increasing all those good feeling hormones, emotions that are happening. So that would be my first recommendation is that if you're in a group, it's become a catchy like Gratitudes Day, like on Tuesdays we share our gratitudes, or how can you weave it in? Here's a question that I would ask is how can gratitudes be woven into your routines? At what point does it make sense? And it doesn't need to be like corny or structured like, oh, it's Tuesday, it's time for our gratitudes. It becomes like that, but it can be pretty casual.
Speaker 3:We did it at the start, before the class I was teaching, and it was like what are you grateful for or what is something joyful that happened in your week and people. It ended up taking like 30 minutes for 20 something people to share. It was the best 30 minutes because as soon as everyone was done, you could feel it in the room like that happiness, that connection and the celebration that we had for one another. So that was super cool. So I would always start with that of talking about your gratitudes and I know like it's been done up so much that people are like, oh, but trust me, like it's still, it's still a really great habit that's been backed by research that says this works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. It's there for a reason, isn't it? Unfortunately, I think we have to start wrapping up already. I think this has got to be like part two of ten parts with you, ming. I think we've just got to keep having you back again, but you know you're a returning guest with us, so do you have a pare-down pointer for us today, something that you've already shared or something new?
Speaker 3:I think last time I shared. Courage is contagious, and just let yourself experience courage, let yourself find joy in courage, and each time that you do it, it gets easier and easier and easier, because courage is also a muscle. So keep practicing and find people around to support you and you will continue to rise and become even better than you already are.
Speaker 4:That's a great way to end the show. Thank you so much, Maine.
Speaker 3:Thank you, this was amazing.
Speaker 2:This episode is sponsored by plan z education services, supporting educators with forward thinking. Professional learning that puts both student impact and teacher wellness at the center. Driven by a vision to teach less, impact more, they help educators find purpose, prioritize what matters and simplify their practice. Learn more more at plansieducationcom.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Minimalist Educator podcast. Join Christine and Tammy and guests again next time for more conversations about how to simplify and clarify the responsibilities and tasks in your role. If today's episode helped you rethink, reimagine, reduce or realign something in your practice, share it in a comment or with a colleague. For resources and updates, visit planzeducationcom and subscribe to receive weekly emails. Until next time, keep it simple and stay intentional. You.
