The Minimalist Educator Podcast
A podcast about paring down to focus on the purpose and priorities in our roles.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast
Episode 088: From Average To Exceptional with Todd Whitaker
What if the fastest path to a better school isn’t a new program, but a sharper focus on the people already doing the right work? We sit down with leadership expert and bestselling author Todd Whitaker to map a clear, practical route from average to exceptional. Todd shares why every school already holds the blueprint for success: great teachers are proving what’s possible with the same students and constraints, and how leaders can replicate those wins across the building.
We dig into the daily moves that change culture: show up in classrooms, praise specifically, and make faculty meetings a source of actionable ideas rather than calendar clutter. Todd explains how to use “learning relationships” to anchor trust, why proximity and engaging lessons beat gimmicks, and how subtle tactics; like timing visits and modeling greetings, raise student engagement. He also offers a simple filter for busy leaders: if it doesn’t help you hire better people or improve the ones you have, minimize it.
Clarity sits at the center of strong schools. Todd outlines how to teach expectations before correction, separate ignorance from insubordination, and prevent problems by setting norms in advance. You’ll hear concrete strategies for assemblies, hallway presence, staff memos, and faculty facilitation, plus a candid look at addressing negativity without draining morale. The standout takeaway: make every decision based on your best people. Superstars want everyone to succeed, including you, and their example can quietly reset the standard for the whole staff.
If you’re ready to trade noise for impact and build a culture that lifts teaching every day, this conversation delivers focused, field-tested steps you can use tomorrow. Subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review with the one practice you’ll start this week.
Find our book The Minimalist Teacher and Your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School's Ecosystem at the links!
Follow on Instagram @PlanZEducation and @minimalist_ed_podcast.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast is a Plan Z Education Services adventure.
Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast, where the focus is on a less is more approach to education. Join your hosts, Christine Arnold and Tammy Musiowski, authors of The Minimalist Teacher and your school leadership edit, a minimalist approach to rethinking your school ecosystem, each week as they explore practical ways to simplify your work, sharpen your focus, and amplify what matters most so you can teach and lead with greater clarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_03:This week we're joined by Todd Whitaker, talking to us about leadership in schools. His peer-down pointer is make all your decisions based on your best people. Todd Whitaker is one of the nation's leading authorities on teacher and principal effectiveness, staff morale, teacher leadership, and school culture and climate. Todd has written over 65 books, including The National Bestseller, What Great Teachers Do Differently.
SPEAKER_02:Hello. We're looking forward to our conversation today with Todd Whitaker, who is a well-recognized speaker, author, educator for many years.
SPEAKER_00:I'm doing great. And since I have minimalist talent, I feel like this is the podcast that I should be a part of.
SPEAKER_02:Of course. That's why we invited. So can you tell us a little bit? We like to get a little bit more background on our guests besides just the bio that we provide. But can you tell us a little bit about your journey into? So now you do a lot of speaking with leadership teams and build leadership capacity. What brought you to that point from where you started?
SPEAKER_00:Actually, when I was a principal in Jefferson City, Missouri, believe it or not, we had visitors from all over the world every day of the year to our school, every single day. And this is pre-social media, pre-anything. And then people would come and want myself or myself and some of my teachers to come and work with their schools. And that's literally where it started. And then we were doing things then that I assumed every school in the world would be doing in two years, and most of the things no one else has ever done. So it's really kind of a funny thing. And then I started doing a little presenting in Missouri, and our principal, our superintendent was phenomenal, would let us do anything we wanted. And my wife used to present more than I did, but then we had kids, you know, who kind of ruined everything. But anyhow, the our superintendent would let us do anything, but I just felt guilty jumping on my assistant principals, not being there. And so I moved to a university level at Indiana, preparing people to be superintendents and principals because I thought it gave me a little more flexibility. And it also kind of reinforces that, you know, that that's a positive thing if you work with communities. It's a positive thing if you work with groups. And that's kind of how it all started.
SPEAKER_02:That's a powerful journey to take. So what have you seen? And I mean, this has been over many years, obviously, but what have you seen that in your kind of journey from you know school based to, you know kind of outside of schools, let's say now? So you're coming in as a consultant, a speaker, an author. What are you seeing right now that and I want to stay positive. What are some of the greatest joys right now that you're seeing when you work with teachers?
SPEAKER_00:And you don't have to stay positive because I'll pull us in the boat. It really is just we have a whole bunch of people who care a ton.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And but you know, one of the things I've realized so often people that are attacking are literally, they just make stuff up. And most of the things about, you know, there's not kitty litter in classrooms and all this nonsensical stuff, it's made up. And the number of people, the higher percentage of people just care and try every day is incredible. And I think that's the hope is that, you know, in education, sometimes we get confused because our job is not to reflect society, our job is to cultivate society. And to have new and better people, we have to have new and better adults. And I think our knowledge in terms of education and understanding how to be successful, understanding the importance of it, just continues to grow all the time. And that's the thing I most enjoy. I and I love working with people that have chosen to devote their life to making a difference that's better for the world. And most professions aren't like that. And we happen to be very fortunate to be connected with a profession that is like that. And that that and of itself is a blessing. But just the number of people that care and try every day are are it's really amazing.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it is quite amazing to be a part of and to witness as well. I I feel like when I'm looking at the work that you've got out there, it really is about the people, about the relationships. Why is that such a center of the work that you do?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I will I'm gonna stop at the people because one of the things that I've always known is it's people, it's not programs. You know, my most recent book is called How to Get All Teachers to Become Like the Best Teachers, because in my mind, we've solved the problems. In every, let's just say, state or every country or every area, in every school everywhere, you have at least one teacher that's cracked the Da Vinci code. So you have one person that's been able to be successful in that school with those kids, with those adults, with that budget, with that leadership, with that governor, with that commissioner of education, with that, whatever it is, and it shows it's possible. Because we have a lot of people who like to pretend it's not possible. But in every school it's possible. And instead of thinking, how do I innovate? I think it's so much simpler to think, how do I replicate? And even though we think about how times have changed, you know, it's isn't it really weird? If you think back to the best teacher you've ever had, they'd be really good now, too. And you think back to the worst teacher you've ever had, I'm talking about you as a K-12 student or at the college level, the worst people, they'd also be really bad now. And ineffective people always want to go backwards, average people always want to stay where they're at, and effective people always want to move forward. Because ineffective people always like to blame something outside of their control for them being ineffective. And they actually hope it's things out of their control that make them ineffective, and highly effective people always want it to be things within their control that allow them to be effective. So one finds prop solutions and one finds problems. And it's just which one of those two things do you want to be in in education? We have to always be on the side of right, and so many of the people are. It's it's just amazing.
SPEAKER_02:You said so many things there that I want to respond to, but what was coming to mind is how do we get people in the profession and outside of the profession even to understand that it really is about cultivating the next generations in a positive way. And because it it is about mindset. And so, how do you what are some things that you share with leaders about shifting a mindset where people are kind of stuck in what education is or what they think it is?
SPEAKER_00:What's funny is I don't think we have to convert people. I thought I think sometimes we lose sight of that. I think it's we have to keep them in that mindset. I don't believe people got into education not believing that mindset.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And so what happens is, you know, when you hire a new teacher, you have one goal, and that's for your school to become more like your new teacher, not for your new teacher to become like the school. And if that's not your goal, you're hiring the wrong people. We hire people who do believe. And so it's just realizing our first step is to keep those people that believe believing. Our first step isn't to get the people that aren't believing to start believing. That's our second step, if that makes any sense. Because you have some who already believe. My fear is that all of a sudden, my fear is always the new people become like then the more negative people in a school. That's more concerning to me. But I think it's just one person at a time, one school at a time, one principal at a time, one leader at a time. It isn't education, it's this school. And we've seen it instantly, where in a highly effective principal goes into a school and the school is literally different almost overnight. And so that just shows it's possible and it's possible everywhere. So I think when you have a dysfunctional leader, what happens is nobody knows why everything's dysfunctional. And they think they don't know what the think about this. If you have a highly ineffective teacher, every student is misbehaving. Every student's misbehaving. And we can't figure out which kids are the ones that are chronic misbehaviors or anything. If a great teacher walks in, instantly almost every kid starts behaving. But if there are one or two still behaving, misbehaving, now you know it is these two kids. So in an environment, if you don't have an effective leader, everybody's misbehaving, meaning just not at their best, not doing the best things. I don't mean they're all stealing paperclips, you know, I mean, but potentially they're not doing their very best. And when a functional leader comes in, all of a sudden we find out oh, that's only these two people. It was never the group, it was never education, it was never teachers. And so I think it's I we have two ways to improve schools, in my opinion: hire better people and improve the ones we have. And you have to have exceptional leaders because average leaders don't want to hire exceptional people because they know they know. And so it starts off with having exceptional leadership. And and the other thing we've gotten confused about, in my opinion, is we talk about relationships, relationships, relationships. We're a school, it's got to be a learning relationship. You know, this isn't a dinner party.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:I say if you're gonna have a dinner party and you want it to be fun, invite me. I'm not kidding. For the first 90 minutes, it is the funnest, except for the grammar, it is the funnest thing you've ever had. But my act gets old after 90 minutes. But what happens is every long-term relationship involves learning. And it can be learning big picture, how we care for each other, how we treat each other, how we're respectful to our colleagues and peers. But it starts with the learning relationship, not a how's your puppy relationship. And there's nothing wrong with asking how their puppy is, but at some point it becomes a dog. But if you're not, what's really interesting is I I ask this of of of uh parents, educators, everybody. You get to choose your if you have a kid, if you get to choose their teacher next year, but only on description, and you have a choice of two two teachers. One that has engaging lessons every single day, other ones that comes to your son's basketball game once a month. Which one will you choose? Everyone wants the teacher that's engaging every day. And if a teacher has engaging lessons every day, you don't care if they come to your kids' basketball game. They have a permanently connected relationship. But it's the learning relationship, and we've gotten confused and we think it's I always say leadership's not an event, teaching's not an event. It's a it's a drumbeat. It's what we do. I don't want to be a leader that's like the missing parent who brings lots of presents at Christmas but doesn't have a relationship the rest of the year. And I don't want to be the teacher that the one unit a year I'm really good at, but it's the best teacher sits 10 days out of 10, the best leader sits 10 days out of 10, and that's a pretty high percentage. And I used to teach math. And it's just helping people understand it's a constant drumbeat on how we treat and interact with people. That's the relationship, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, coming back to that idea of an exceptional leader, I'm I'm wondering, you know, we talk a lot, Tammy and I, about all the noise that can that can come with being in a school environment and how your attention gets pulled in a million different directions all the time. So I I hope it's not covering the same thing that you've just talked about there. But how could how would you recommend that school leaders sort of filter through that noise and that busyness to work on being that exceptional leader that that has the right kind of learning relationship and not get too distracted with everything else?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think it's I think it's teaching the teachers to have the learning relationship too, obviously. I always the best way for a principal to take care of the students is to take care of the teachers. And then the teachers take care of the students, and it's it's not getting confused that way. Well, the first thing is, and this is really kind of funny, if there's an average principal almost always, it's because an average superintendent hired an average teacher who became an average principal. Because a great teacher would never become, will never become an average principal. It's not in their DNA.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And if the great teacher left and managed a McDonald's, almost immediately, literally immediately, that McDonald's would be better. Because the way the teacher would treat people would be kind to people, act professional, look professional, dress professional, interact in a professional way. Other people would see it, but they'd also teach people how to greet the customers, and they get to see it. Literally, the first customer walks in the door, that person's been there one minute, and they're gonna see somebody treat that person in a more respectful way than they've ever had. But one of the traits the great teacher has is an incredible ability to ignore. And ignore does not mean that I mistreat. Ignore means I'm choosing what to respond to and not to respond to, just like the great parent. Well, that great teacher who has an ability to ignore becomes a principal. Guess what? They have an incredible ability to do: ignore the things that aren't significant in their school. And if as a leader, if you remember the two ways to improve your school or hire better teachers and improve the ones you have, anything that doesn't lead to one of those two things, I try to put minimal time and energy and effort and resources into it. Because I want to get back to the things that really make a difference. I'm gonna be in classrooms because that's what matters in the school. And what's interesting is if you have a teacher that sits behind their desk, it isn't because they're lazy, it's because they're scared of the kids. And the desk is comfort for them. If you have a principal that doesn't go in classrooms, it's not because they're lazy, it's because they're scared of teachers. They don't know what to do if I walk in and a kid's misbehaving, and they really would don't know what to do if the teacher's misbehaving. But if you have a teacher, just think about this. If you have a teacher whose instinct is to be in the school and be around the school and be with kids every day and walk around their classroom and interact with every kid, well, of course that's what they're wanting to do if they're a principal. But if you hire an average teacher, that's not what they did as a teacher. So there's no way they're gonna do that as a principal, if that makes sense. The biggest disadvantage a principal has is if they've never worked with a great principal, because then you have to figure it out on your own. And I always say we're surrounded by so much average we start to think average is right. Great principles without exception, almost all my books are based on research. I just take the research out because I think nobody will read them. A great principal every single great principal has faculty meetings teachers look forward to in value. No average principal has faculty meetings teachers look forward to in value. Well, just think if I worked with an average or below average principal, the faculty meetings were a joke. And if I became a principal, I'd think faculty meetings are supposed to be a joke. Or I'd at least think it's acceptable for them to be a joke, if that makes sense. If I work with a great principal that's faculty meetings were valued, do you see how I have one way of starting my faculty meetings when I become a principal that's going to work? And that doesn't mean I don't bring in my own personality, I don't have my own tweaks, I don't have to copy that person, but I see some of the things they do by involving and teaching. You know, the minimum goal of every faculty meeting is for teachers to be more excited about teaching tomorrow than they were today. Why do we suck the life out of people? And but what makes it more valuable isn't a YouTube clip. And some of them are funny with cats and stuff, and it isn't cupcakes, and I like to snort frosting. What makes your faculty meetings valued is when people can leave and immediately have in their own classroom to be more successful. But instead, what happens is we think a funny YouTube clip does that. And there's not funny YouTube clips. But what happens is guess when the office guess what their goal is for every meeting they have with principals, is for the principals to be more excited about principal in tomorrow than they were today. Why do we suck the life out of them? And as a principal, we've all been in meetings at central office where we want to take a letter opener and stick it in our thigh to make sure we're still alive. You know, I mean, but if the if the superintendent's exceptional, that's not what the f the meetings for principals would be like. And then those principals get models that they can take back to their own school. But if you're surrounded by average, it's really hard to crack that by yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. There's again so many things there that I want. I'm I'm trying to like pick out the one thing that's sticking with me the most, but there's so many. I'm thinking about you know, usually meetings are the bane of the people's existence at schools. And sometimes school leaders try to like pad it with like, well, we have like treats and snacks and coffee for you. And so sometimes these somewhat, you know, nice little comforts for teachers are okay for a while, but it doesn't really help build the culture and help build effective teaching. So what are some what are some tips you would have for school leaders to like make that meeting more engaging? Or we don't like to use the term buy-in because we know that's kind of like a false pretense. We want people to be feel invested. And like you said, the people that are in it are gonna be in it, and the people that are kind of you know borderline might not be. But what are some things that you have done in your experience or you talk about with school leaders that you know just get people to be excited about coming back and teaching again or leaving the school again tomorrow in a in a bigger way?
SPEAKER_00:Okay. We can talk about meetings, we can talk about day-to-day. I have a question for you. Tammy, if Tammy and Christine, if you all have company, do you ever vacuum?
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. And if your vacuum's broken, do you still go ahead and rub it over the rug just to get the lines in so that the people come over think it was vacuumed?
SPEAKER_03:No, I've never done that. I've never done that, I have to say.
SPEAKER_00:But if it was broken, don't tell me you wouldn't, Christine. Now you're thinking it's a pretty good idea. You know, so anyhow, now you don't have to get the extension cord. You know, you can just run it. But what's interesting is one of the best ways to make anyone feel better is to compliment them. We get so few compliments. You have to make teachers feel important because they are important. Day one, you just go start going in classrooms. And I call it look for the good parts. Sometimes you have to squint. And and believe me, if I just come in your room, you try harder, you get out from behind your desk, you interact with kids more, I write you a note. It was funny. I was just working with principals where I talked about do any of you have teachers that sit behind their desk too much? Every principal, almost every principal, raised their hand. I said, okay, let's pretend there's 180 days in the school year, day one through day 180. What day of the year would you guess the teacher that sits behind their desk is the least likely to be sitting behind their desk? So do either of you have a guess? What day, day day one through 180, what day are they least likely to be sitting behind their desk?
SPEAKER_02:I'm gonna say like day 40.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, tell me how you came with 40, and I'm not even gonna ask you to explain. It's day one. Okay, because they haven't given up yet, they haven't gotten cynical yet, they haven't gotten naked, they have some energy in day one. And I have to admit, I wouldn't have guessed that. But anyway, would you agree there's a chance day one is a better chance than any other day except day 40?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, got it. So day one. With that in mind, if it's a high school teacher and they have a seven period day, guess what period the first day the teacher is least likely to be sitting behind their desk?
SPEAKER_02:Probably first period.
SPEAKER_00:Excellent. Guess what hour and day I'm gonna be in that teacher's classroom?
SPEAKER_02:You're gonna be there right away, first thing.
SPEAKER_00:And you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna catch them doing something right, and I'm gonna write them a note. And I'm gonna let's pretend it's you, Tammy. I'm gonna write a note. And it may be two days later you get the note. It doesn't make any difference. It's not it's not a speed race. I'm gonna go, Tammy. I noticed the other day when I was in your classroom, I was amazed as you were walking around how it engaged kids that typically weren't ever engaged. I remember you walked by Owen and all of a sudden he was attentive. And I remember him not being near as attentive last year. And I never even thought about how just your presence and just the using proximity and walking around causes a higher level of engagement by the actions of a teacher. I, as you know, I do a series of workshops with our new teachers. Tammy, would it be okay if I used your yours as an example with the new teachers so they could get a sense of just how being up and around and active as a teacher can lay raise a higher level of engagement by the students? Is that okay if I share that with them, Tammy?
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:You'd like it, wouldn't you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Tammy, and nobody's ever done that before, you have they?
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_00:Especially if you're not effective. I mean, I'm not trying to be mean, especially. So, Tammy, then if day three I walk in, what do you think that teacher's more likely to be doing than they ever were doing on day three in the first 22 years in their career?
SPEAKER_02:They're probably standing up and moving around.
SPEAKER_00:And Tammy, just so you can feel smart on your answer, guess what on day 40 they're more likely to be doing than but Tammy, if on day 40 they're not, but I walk in, what are they more likely to do than they would have done on a typical day 40?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, they'll probably get up.
SPEAKER_00:You don't, kids don't kids don't become kind because we tell them to be kind. Kids become kind because we treat them with kindness. And if that if a stud if a teacher student taught with an average teacher, they're likely to think average is right. No undergraduate program in the world has a class on griping in the teacher's lounge. But if as a principal, I don't help my new teachers understand this isn't what we do, then they're gonna think it's right because the person I let them mentor them, because I was an average principal, I gave them an average mentor. This is what they do, so then they think this is what they're supposed to do. So at faculty meetings, I'll even talk about that. Just think about at a faculty meeting, Tammy. Let's pretend it was your class I did that in. And then at a faculty meeting, I say, You all amaze me. I don't know how you do this. Recently I was in one of our outstanding teachers' classrooms, and I was in there, and she was just up walking around, and I noticed when she walked by kids how much more attentive they were. I learned so much from you all. And I'm gonna try to keep an eye on that so I can continue to learn as I come in classrooms on a regular basis with her. Do you see, Tammy, how I taught everyone that same concept that I taught that that I reinforced her for?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I believe in teachers greeting kids, but greeting kids can mean a variety of different things. For some teachers, greeting kids means looking and smiling and making eye contact with every kid. It's that's great, to me, that's the same. Well, what's interesting is I talk about it at the first faculty meeting of the year. Then we were 98% of us are doing it in the at the very beginning, but gradually we get a little worn off, and somewhere around, say, I don't know, day 40, anyhow, there's less people doing that. And then what happens is I write in my Friday focus. I don't know where you get the energy to do this, but it's an incredible impact on our school. And I'm gonna let you in on a secret. You all are the reason the kids like coming here to school so much. And I'm gonna let you in on another secret. You all are the reason. I like coming here to school so much. Thanks for what you do. Could could that be something people like at the faculty meeting, Tammy?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:And which teachers think I was talking about them?
SPEAKER_02:All of them.
SPEAKER_00:Nope. The ones that are greeting kids.
SPEAKER_02:Well, yes, but uh, and so I would I'm my my my thinking is that all of them have been doing the greeting, so you're speaking to all of them.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, everyone who's greeting kids. And what's interesting is Tammy, do you get to see what I value as a principal?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Do you get to see how you get to feel special by just doing the right thing?
SPEAKER_02:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00:And I'm not excluding an and and Tammy, my first book was dealing with difficult teachers. So understand if I have somebody who is negative and harmful, I will deal with them, but I'll never deal with them at the good people's expense.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I always say you always treat a difficult teacher as if the whole faculty was in the room watching. Because the the rest of the faculty want you to deal with them. They just want you to deal with them in a professional, respectful manner, which is exactly what the great teachers do. The great teachers, what happens is kids want the great teachers dealing with the kids who are being too too high a level of disruption. They just want them to deal with a respectful and professional manner. And it's the same thing. So all of these things can be done at faculty meetings, because at faculty meetings, I just share with the group or recall with the group something that I saw recently, something that I heard recently, something else someone else mentioned. And I have something called the Friday Focus. If you've read motivating inspiring teachers, single best leadership tool I've ever used. It's my staff memo. And I know all take a look at that and then have that memo quickly. Because I make you feel important, I make you feel special, I teach you what's significant, I reinforce what's significant, I treat you in a way I want you to treat other people, but I talk to you about how to I talk about what we do at assemblies that's for the teachers. How what do ineffective people do? And the teachers say, stand against the wall, sit in the back. And you know what I say? I go, the people that were doing that didn't know they were doing it wrong. Because the first thing we have to sort out are people ignorant or insubordinate. And we almost always think they're insubordinate, they're almost always ignorant, unaware. But what happens is you didn't know that your colleagues knew you're not sitting with the kids, and now they have to watch your class too. But I teach them that before the assembly because I don't want to catch you doing wrong. I want you to teach you to do it right. And so it's just understand, people want to be good. I promise they want to be good. You just have to teach them how to be good, reinforce them from being good, and then individually work with people who are choosing for whatever reason, either lack of knowledge or lack of effort to do the right thing. And it I it it every book I've ever written, I almost wanted to call it simple, it's just not easy. Because if it's really complicated, I couldn't do it. I'm not smart enough. But if it's simple, I can do it and I can teach everybody else how to do it too. So it's that things at faculty meetings, it's it's particular tips. Sometimes I have teachers share what it is. We got to the point where teachers were video were recording their own classrooms, and then someone would bring it to me and ask questions and this. Some of those clips we'd show at faculty meetings with the permission of the teacher, obviously, and and what it was. I uh and just I would talk about things I've heard from parents during this week. Things I ask kids what they like best about school, and and one of the kids goes, the way the teachers treat us. And you walk you're proud to be a part of that school, aren't you?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. And you want to be a good guy. Because you see the value of being the good guys. And it's just it's just helping people. They just want to be good. And there's there is negativity, but it isn't because of outside things. It comes it's the negative that concerns me, is the ones that comes in that's internal. That's what concerns me. And I teach people this about how they how they can enjoy the kids and and and also the other thing that you get that helps teach your morale is supporting the teachers. You know, I'm I'm in a principal preparation program and people People go, well, Todd I got hired, but they wanted an internal person and I'm external. They wanted an external person, but I'm internal. They wanted a man, I'm a woman, they wanted a woman, I'm a man. They wanted someone younger, they wanted someone older, whatever. I go, all that matters till the first kid's sent to the office. And if a teacher sees you as supportive, they don't care what your background is. And if they don't see you as supportive, they don't care what your background is. And it's just helping people. The leaders want to be good too. Leading's hard. It is hard. We have a lot of Monday morning quarterbacks, but leading's hard. I say people always look to leaders, but during times of crisis, they stare. Because they're glad it's not them. But afterwards, it's great to say, well, I would have, yeah, sure you would have. It's like when people go, I knew the outcome of the Super Bowl before it even started. I go, you must have killed in Vegas then. Turns out they never did bet. You know, but they they talked about what they would have won. You know, so but I think it's just teaching people, people want to be good, in my opinion. Everybody wants to be good. You got into education because you want to make a difference. And it's just teaching you how to make more of a difference by being effective. Kids are going to remember you one way or the other. How do you want them to remember you? So I don't know if that makes sense. Christine, I don't know if that makes any sense.
SPEAKER_03:It does. It does. I feel like we're soaking up all of your wisdom here, Todd, especially that reminder.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I'm about out. Every day all I am is older and dumber. So keep that in mind.
SPEAKER_03:I don't believe that. I don't believe that. But no, I I especially like that reminder of like everyone is trying to do good. I think that's a really good reminder when it when times get tough, is you know, everyone is in it for the right reason. They're trying to do the right thing.
SPEAKER_00:If you ever question that, just think of classroom management. Classroom management is the easiest thing to help people improve in because classroom management's selfish. If any of us could get the kids to behave better, we'd get the kids to behave better. But it isn't telling them to get the kids to behave better because you're already getting them to behave as well as you know how. It's teaching them how. I always think it's funny, you know. I always ask educators, you ever been told to raise your test scores? And everybody laughs. And I go, I go, how many of y'all been holding back on that? You know, but what happens is people tell you to raise your test scores, they don't teach you because they don't know how. People tell you to manage your classroom instead of teaching you because they don't know how. And you just know your leader doesn't know how. And there's nothing wrong with the leader not knowing how, they just can't be afraid to ask people who do know how.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I think that goes to your point about, you know, if if teachers don't know the expectation, right? So they have to sit with their kids during the assembly. If you don't let them know, how do they know? And so that's a lot of what classroom management is, right? Like you have to teach the expectations.
SPEAKER_00:It's significant specificity. It isn't just no, because for example, I talk about superstars, backbones, and mediocres. If you've read my book, What Great Teachers Do Differently, I talk about it. This isn't some mystery secret for leadership. This is for everyone. I want everybody to know. This is how this is what great people are. This is what comprises them. And you can be that. I don't I don't talk about things you can't do because then that's discouraging. However, Tammy, superstars and backbones both sit by the challenging kids at the assembly. But they do it differently. Average people, do you know how they sit by the kid? Revenge mode. Christine, you're gonna sit by me at this assembly, you're gonna sit by me at every assembly of the rest of your revenge mode. You know how great people do it? They pretend it's random. Everything in great people do, they pretend it's random. You know the teacher that sits behind their desk too much that first day of school, that first hour? I pretend I'm this is just a random class, I'm walking in. But there's nothing random in great people's actions. So the great teacher, then what do they do? They walk the kids to the assembly, and you know who they turn and walk in, coincidentally? Right when Christine walks in. Christine, we could just sit by each other again. This is the third assembly in a row. I remember the last one, the birds of prey, ever since then, every night I dreamed, they swooped down and just took you away. We get to sit by each other again. But you see how it all seems random, and it's preventing the other one wants revenge. But it's teaching my teachers this. I'm gonna use the word secretary because I'm a hillbelly. If there's a new principal to a school, I also work with business, it's the same thing, every everything's the same. We just think it's different, we're just wrong. It's all the same. Principal to a school. I could have been a principal elsewhere, but new to this school. Did you know the secretary wants to know how I want them to answer the phone until they answer the phone? Well, because once they answer the phone, I'm correcting their behavior.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And do you know the better they are, the more they want to know? It's the opposite of what you think. You think the really good people don't want to know. No, they want to know. Because if that secretary's really, really good, he or she, guess who they want to please? The boss.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:And you know what they want? They want the new principal to know they're the best secretary they've ever worked with. They've never worked with anyone as good. Chance to show you how good I am. Give me a task, any responsibility. But if I wait and let you answer the phone for a week and then I come and talk to you about how to answer the phone, now I've corrected your behavior and I've hurt a relationship.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:If you play card games and board games, you want to know the rules, but you want to know the rules before the game starts, unless you're going to cheat.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And I assume everybody's good. So I assume everybody wants to know the guidelines before the game before the game starts. And I'm not pretending teaching's a game, but just life. Everybody wants to know. I don't want to catch you doing wrong. I want to teach you. And what's interesting is once I teach you to do something and you don't do it, now I know if you're ignorant or insubordinate. Once I talk about assemblies and now you continue to stand against the wall. Now I know. And it's very different. And I'm much more comfortable talking to you then. But I even talk to you in prevention mode. I don't talk to you the day after the assembly. I talk to you the day before the next assembly. I don't need you to feel bad. I need you to do the right thing.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I have no interest in you feel bad. I have no interest in you apologizing. I mean, it's fine if you do. I'm not saying that's a negative, it's a positive, obviously. I just need you to do the right thing. I ask all teachers to reflect back when they were in K-12 themselves as students. And I'll ask both of you all too, uh, Christine and Tammy. When you were a K-12 student, could you name the teachers in the school that were yellers?
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Could every kid in the school name the teachers that were yellers?
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Now that you're teachers, how many of you think the kids in your schools can name the teachers that are yellers? And how many of you realize the teachers can name the teachers that are yellers? And how many of you got into education to be known as the yeller?
SPEAKER_02:I would hope no one.
SPEAKER_00:And my only suggestion is stop. Just stop. I'm a proponent of mental health, I don't have a solution for you. Just stop. Nobody wants to be known as the yellers, and you didn't know your colleagues know, but they know. And they don't like it. Because they don't want the kids treated in that way. When they realize the kids that most need our support get treated in that way all the time. And all we can do is stop. And do you know why people change their behavior? Because they didn't know their colleagues knew. You want to know the definition of school culture? That's adult peer pressure. And it's just teaching people. You just teach people. They want to be good. But I teach this before at the first faculty meeting of the year. Because Tammy, I don't want you yelling. Because there's a chance you didn't know it was wrong. You student taught with someone, the teacher next to you yells. I'm not being critical at all. But once I teach you this, if now you continue to do it, it's a completely different story. But if I don't teach you this, there's a chance you you thought it was the right thing to do. You grew up in that household. You know, you grew up in this dynamic, you're in this relationship. Whatever it is, it doesn't make any difference because that's got to be left, that can't be brought into the classroom, in my opinion.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Yeah, agree. You know, Todd, we could talk to you for hours, clearly.
SPEAKER_00:It probably feels like you already have to you.
SPEAKER_02:No, this it's the time has been flying. But we do need to wrap up this episode. And at the end of each of our episodes, we always ask our guests for a pair-down pointer. And you've given lots of those, I think, already. But if you were just going to say one thing to school leaders, what is that one thing that you would say?
SPEAKER_00:I'm not a big fan of one thing, but here is the one thing: make every decision based on your best people, and you'll never make a wrong decision.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because your best people want everyone to be successful. And you know who else they want to be successful? They want you to be successful.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:They're on your side. They're on your side. They're just scary because they're good. They're just scary because they're right. And they're just scary because they know you know. But your superstars are the only people in the school that always want the leader to be successful because they know we can't be as successful if the leader isn't successful. So they want the leader to be successful. And you may have some other people that would like it if they could make the leader cry. I mean, I'm just letting you though that. But the best people always want everyone to be successful.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Everyone. They they see the world as an unlimited sum game. So make every decision based on your best people, and you will literally never make the wrong decision. But they can't be perceived as the leader's pet. Because if they become, if they perceived as they can be the leader's pet. But if they can't be perceived as the leader's pet because they lose credibility to influence others then. And your best people don't want to be the leader's pet. Yeah, people don't want to be the principal's pet, but it's never the best people.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Thank you so much, Todd. There's so much knowledge and wisdom in that conversation. And I know that our listeners are going to soak it up. So thank you so much for being with us today.
SPEAKER_00:And I want to thank the leader listeners for what they do. And Todd Whitaker's nobody. But if I can ever help you, call or email me anytime you want. My website's toddwitaker.com. Sadly, I don't have any people. But sometimes leadership is lonely. And I don't want you, I don't mind you being alone, but I don't want you to be lonely. So if I can ever help you, call or email anytime. Christine and Tammy can probably help you more than I can, but I'm a neutral outsider who will look you in the eye and tell you the truth. And as long as you're on the side of the kids, I'm on the side of you. So thank you for your leadership journey. Thanks for choosing a position that makes a difference every single day. That's a rare gift that you're bringing to your school.
SPEAKER_03:This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services, supporting educators with forward-thinking professional learning that puts both student impact and teacher wellness at the center. Driven by a vision to teach less, impact more, they help educators find purpose, prioritize what matters, and simplify their practice. Learn more at planzeducation.com.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for listening to the Minimalist Educator Podcast. Join Christine and Tammy and guests again next time for more conversations about how to simplify and clarify the responsibilities and tasks in your role. If today's episode helped you rethink, reimagine, reduce, or realign something in your practice, share it in a comment or with a colleague. For resources and updates, visit planzeducation.com and subscribe to receive weekly emails. Until next time, keep it simple and stay intentional.
