Ep 106 — Strip the Agenda: Fewer Words, Better Meetings with Chris Fenning

Meetings can quietly take over a school week and still leave everyone feeling behind. We bring back communication expert and author Chris Fenning for a practical conversation about effective meetings in education and why so many faculty meetings feel draining long before they start. If you’ve ever walked into a Monday meeting expecting one thing and gotten a last-minute surprise plus a pile of follow-up tasks, you already know the cost: stress, confusion, and less time for students.

Chris shares a simple framework we can use for almost any meeting type, from leadership check-ins to whole-staff gatherings: TPO, which stands for Topic, Purpose, Output. We talk through what each word really means, how it changes the way we write meeting invites, and how it helps us decide who truly needs to be there. We also dig into the “this could have been an email” problem and the smarter fix: if there’s no interaction or action required, use a better channel like a short video, voice note, or written update and make the next step explicit.

We also get tactical about what to do when a meeting goes off track. Chris offers a respectful question that any participant can use to pull the group back toward the intended output, without sounding rude or shutting people down. Finally, we explore how attendees can stay engaged by clarifying their contribution before the meeting begins, which is one of the fastest ways to reduce wasted time and improve meeting productivity across a school.

Subscribe for more minimalist leadership and teacher workflow strategies, share this with a colleague who runs meetings, and leave a review with your best tip for making meetings less painful.

This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services. 

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast, where the focus is on a less is more approach to education. Join your hosts, Christine Arnold and Tammy Musiowski, authors of The Minimalist Teacher and your school leadership edit, a minimalist approach to rethinking your school ecosystem, each week as they explore practical ways to simplify your work, sharpen your focus, and amplify what matters most so you can teach and lead with greater clarity, purpose, and joy.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

In this week's episode, we are joined once again by Chris Fanning to talk to us about effective meetings. His peer down pointer is the TPO formula as a game changer. Stay tuned to find out more. Chris Fanning helps professionals master their communication at work, whether it's helping experts talk to non-experts, teams talk to executives, or simply being able to start a message clearly. Chris's practical methods are used in organisations like Google, JP Morgan, and NATO, and have appeared in the Harvard Business Review. He's also the author of multiple award-winning books on communication and training that have sold more than 100,000 copies. Chris? Chris? What is that, Chris?

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Well, with whatever you want to call me, I'm very pleased to be here.

Why Meetings Feel So Painful

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Fantastic. Chris, we're really excited to talk to you today because you have a new book about meetings, effective meetings. And it is a question that goes on and on, not just in education, but in other fields as well. Like, do we have to have all of these meetings? So I'm really excited to talk to you about this topic today. Can you tell us a little bit about what led you to this book?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Oh, absolutely. Well, first and foremost, I'm I'm sure that listeners have heard the word meetings and thought, yes, this is exciting. This is the topic I want to get into. But probably not because it's a fun topic, but because it's so painful. The idea of having another meeting, even just saying those words, makes me feel a bit, oh, really? Do we have to? And that is one of the reasons that I wrote this book. So meetings are a core part of all jobs, no matter what the job is. Someone who works at a checkout or a cashier will have team meetings or meetings with the other staff and employees. People in schools have meetings outside of their classroom. And of course, in business, some of the stats say sort of 35% of the average white-collar worker is their time is spent in meetings each week. So there's a lot of meetings. There are a lot of complaints about meetings. And I felt that the material that was available, a lot of it is good, but there wasn't one resource that tackled the fundamental things for all meetings, rather than just focusing on very specific types. So I put a book together that is a short practical guide to how to make meetings shorter and actually deliver what they're meant to.

Recurring Faculty Meetings And Surprise Stress

SPEAKER_03 3:29

I know this would certainly have been helpful when I was teaching in New York, because I felt like a lot of the meetings we would have there at my school just the just the drudgery, it felt like. Yeah. But then how do you kind of like if you know that you need to have some meetings, how do you reduce that kind of anxiety for people like this isn't going to be as bad as you think it is without saying that?

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Oh, that's a really interesting way to think about meetings. So before I sort of jump into an answer on that, can you give an example? Is there is there one type of meeting that really stands out for you that drove that anxiety?

SPEAKER_03 4:32

Our faculty meetings that we would have each Monday. We we kind of had initially a flow. Like the first Monday would be this, the second Monday would be this, third, fourth. And it was supposed to be kind of on a rotational cycle, but it didn't always end up that way because then the district would present something to schools, and then the principal would have to bring in that information. So it was kind of, you know, sometimes those surprises that we weren't expecting. So I definitely liked that there was going to be some kind of routine to knowing what the thing that was going to be expected. But then it was like the the surprises that were not always great surprises that come to you at the last minute that just have to be kind of thrown into the mix. But it was usually those faculty, those, those meetings that you knew you were going to happen have happened on a weekly basis.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

The recurring meeting. The recurring meeting that sets out with a grand or clear purpose and ends up, as you say, either being derailed by something new that's come in or just going through the motions. So a second question for you is the what was the purpose of those meetings? And what were they meant to produce? What was the output that you would leave with?

SPEAKER_03 5:50

So the output depended on the week. So sometimes if we were taking in information from the district, let's say if there was a new initiative or something we had to learn, we might have something to go and do, like read this article and you know, bring back questions or something like that for the next meeting. Sometimes we looked at what was happening in the school. So we would go into committees and have to do our planning for whatever else was happening in the school. I'm trying to think what was another one that we would often have drawing a blank because our PLC meetings were separate. But yeah, so that gives you an idea.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

All right. So using those two examples, it sounds as though that weekly meeting was a creator of more work for you after that meeting. So whenever you would go into it, you wouldn't necessarily know what the topic was going to be because it might be a surprise. And no matter what the topic was, planned or surprised, you were going to have to do more work afterwards. Do you think that might have been a bit of a driver of why you thought, oh, I don't want to go to that meeting?

SPEAKER_03 6:54

Probably, yes.

unknown 6:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

And that is a really common sort of classic example of why meetings with good intentions can have that draining effect before you even go in. If we don't know what's coming, how do we know how to prepare? And if we know that that meeting will consistently generate other work for us, combining that with the surprise if we don't know what the topic is, you're already mentally thinking, well, I I'm at capacity in my week. How am I going to fit something else in? And then trying to run through, even subconsciously, what are the possible things that could now come in and disrupt my week? And we, as people, tend to imagine the worst. And all of that does not set you up for a, yes, let's have a productive, exciting meeting. And I do want to challenge one of the, I'm not challenging you, I want to challenge the person who was running these sessions. Being surprised by something that comes in, nobody should be surprised in the meeting because there is always time beforehand to be told what it is. Even if it's only 30 minutes or an hour before the meeting, saying, hey folks, there's a new topic, it's this, that gives you at least a bit of time to mentally process. When you go into the meeting and someone says, something happened on Friday, well, you could have told us on Friday so that we had time to at least mentally prepare ourselves for the meeting on Monday. And that is it's unfortunate, and it's but it's very easy to fix. Whoever is leading the meeting, if there is a change from the proposed purpose intent or the topic, the purpose and the desired output, any of those things change prior to the meeting, let people know with as much notice as possible.

When Information Should Not Be A Meeting

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Yeah, it brings back our previous conversations about communication, Chris, is being really clear with what you're doing is so important for sure. I'm thinking about those meetings that you have that are there mainly to disseminate information. And I feel like that's often the one that people say, this could have been an email.

unknown 9:02

That's what I think.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

But I also know that not everybody will read the email or read it thoroughly enough to pick it up. So, but then you also have very tired people at the end of the day, they might not be picking everything up in the meeting as well. So, can you tell us a little bit like how do we get the right amount of information, the right structure, so that we are not, you know, draining the life out of everybody, but actually getting the message across that that we need to get across.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Uh yeah, absolutely. And draining is the word that's come up, I don't know, what, five times already in the conversation, because that's how bad meetings make us feel. Good meetings don't drain us. They can be, they can take energy, but they shouldn't leave us feeling drained. So when it comes to information only meetings, you said that could have been an email. Well, you've you also listed the problem of not everyone reads the emails and we think, oh goodness, I don't want another email as well. So here's the way to make sure that the information is correct in terms of volume and the method of delivering it. And it's uh when you set up your meeting, you need to ask yourself what are people going to do, actively do with this information I'm sharing? Let's say the the school board has passed down some new information and so the head of school is sharing it with the staff. So what? What are they meant to do in response? What is the activity? What is the interaction? It do you want to share the info and then have a conversation to allow people to ask questions? Is it a time for debate? Do you want people to identify the actions they're going to take as a result of that information? There should always be something done with the information. And if there isn't, don't deliver it in a meeting. If the purpose is just to deliver something out, send it in another method. Now you mentioned email is one of them. Okay, but not everyone reads an email. But there are other ways we could do it. Send a voice note, record a short video, and there are tons of free, easy-to-use tools. Like Loom is one, you can just do it online and send a three to five minute video. Change the medium so that people can consume it in a way that they like on their own schedule, and then they get that information. And I do this quite often. If I follow up with people after a workshop, I'll record a short video, but I'll also have a link for listen to the audio, because some people might want to listen while they're driving or doing the ironing or something else, and the transcript will come out as a text. I record the video on a couple of button clicks. AI tools and other automation means I can turn the video into audio and into text. Three different mediums. People can choose the one that works for them and they can consume it in their own time. And there always needs to be a here's what you do with that information next. Doesn't have to be interactive, but if I want them to consider it and how it applies to their work, give them that action. But I don't need to gather 30 people together so they all hear the message at the same time. But I do need to give them the method method, sorry, I need to give them the message and tell them when it needs to be listened to, read by, or acted on.

The TPO Framework For Clarity

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Yeah, that's such a critical piece. And it connects very closely to working with teachers, honestly. Like how are people engaging with the content that you're presenting to them? Because otherwise, it just becomes like this passive piece of information, right? Like, here's some information. You're not told what to do with it. Do I just read it? Do I have to do something with it? So, like being clear on that and knowing what the purpose is helps everyone.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

That's the word that makes all meetings better. Purpose is the core of a meeting. There are three words in a very simple framework that affects every part of practically every meeting. And that's when you when you're planning it, when you go into it, when you're inviting people to your meeting, the topic must be clear, the purpose of the meeting must be clear, and it must be obvious what output will be produced. Is it a decision? Is it a list of ideas? Is it a prioritized something? Is it a response, a solution to a problem? Is it an action to set up a committee to do something however much we don't want to set up more committees? But there should be a clear topic, purpose, and output so that you can structure that meeting, invite the right people, have the right activities, and stay on track. Those three words make every meeting better.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

I noticed in sorry, Christine, I probably took your thoughts, but I was looking through some pieces of your book, and I noticed that you had highlighted five P's. One of them was purpose. Was that for this book? Maybe I was looking in the wrong book. Do you have five?

SPEAKER_00 14:04

I don't have a five P process in this one. No, it's TPO, is the is the core piece of this. So the topic purpose output. But I'm intrigued what the five P's might be.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah, it's making me wonder now because now I can't find where it was. And I'm like, oh, look at us uh using Ps all the time.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Like we have our triple P, you've got a five Ps, but maybe it's the the people place purpose the product. And it there's a method of there's another 5P method for meetings. It's not it's not mine. I believe it says hopefully I haven't butchered it, uh, but I'm gonna dig into dig into my notes and find out. I I have a stack of of other meeting books because there are there's a lot of great material on this topic. I by no means did I write anything groundbreaking when it comes to meetings. It's a well-covered topic. And there are some really, really good books out there and other other sources, usually specific to particular meeting types. If you want to run a half-day workshop or if you want to run a problem-solving meeting, there are some really good books that go deep into those very specific topics. What I'm hoping to do, and what I get the feedback that has worked, is I've provided a set of fundamental steps people can take to make any meeting type better. Whether it's a one-to-one between two staff members, whether it's that weekly team or faculty meeting, or anything else, you know, planning the strategy for next year, how do we plan the Christmas party? All of those meeting types have some fundamental rules that can make them better and not draining and not make us feel, oh, that's just space on my calendar.

How To Pull A Meeting Back

SPEAKER_02 15:49

So, Chris, I have been a participant, like an audience member and a facilitator of meetings that have completely gone off the rails for a variety of different purposes. And it's it's it's quite an uncomfortable feeling, both as a person in the audience watching it happening, knowing that it's going off track, but also as a facilitator, knowing that you are trying to get something done. And now we're we're on a different track. So, from both points of view, is there anything that we can do to bring us back without being offensive or rude to anybody, but make sure that we're still getting to the purpose of the meeting?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Yes. Yes, there are definitely things we can do. And the great thing is they're quite simple. So there are a number of scripts in the book for people who are saying, Well, what do I actually say in the situation? I've detailed out very short scripts. When I say detail, it makes it seem like it's long, but there are some very short, simple scripts that people can use in situations like somebody's dominating the conversation. The group can't seem to move on from a topic. Somebody keeps interrupting. What do you do in each of those situations? And I will share a little bit about how you can do those in a moment. But before that, I want to address the point you made about being the leader or a participant and how uncomfortable it is. And uh a common misconception is that it is the leader's responsibility to keep a meeting on track. And the reason that's a misconception is yes, the leader has some responsibility to do that. They should be focused on keeping things on track. However, every person in a meeting is also responsible for not only keeping things on track for themselves, don't introduce a tangent, stay on topic, but they also have the ability to bring a meeting back on track, even if they're not leading it, and it can be done politely. And I've seen this done where interns have helped bring meetings back on track when there are fairly senior leaders in the room as well. And here's how to do it. Whatever the situation is, let's take the category of the conversation has gone off track, whether it's too detailed or it's moved away from the core purpose of the meeting. The way to bring it back on track as a leader or as a participant is to first recognize when the conversation is going in the wrong direction. So all conversations twist and turn, they're totally natural. There's never a straight line between the beginning of a meeting and the end, and everything that is said is directly on that path. It doesn't work that way. But if you are paying attention to the conversation and thinking, is this getting us closer to that output that we need? Is this still on on track with the purpose? As soon as you feel that it's not, ask a question and ask, hey folks, is the is the thing we're currently talking about is it relevant to and helping us achieve the output for this meeting? And by asking a question, one of a few things is going to happen. Either you're going to be told, yes, it does relate, and here's how, which is great, you've learned to think. Okay, great, didn't realize that. Thank you very much. Or the room and the people in the room are going to realize they're going off track and say, Oh, yep, no, it's not connected. Let's and they'll self-adjust. And you've done it without telling anyone and without assuming that it's not relevant. So asking a simple question and let the person who's speaking or the group tell you how what they're talking about is directly cor related to producing that purpose of achieving the purpose and producing the output for the meeting.

How To Stay Engaged As Attendee

SPEAKER_03 19:39

That's very helpful because conversations can are just so twisty turny. And even on our podcasts, you know, we can go on our tangents and then come back to something, but just recognizing, yeah, that a question sometimes can just really recenter us. And thank you for saying too that it's it's the person, it's everybody's responsibility to take part in that and recognize that, okay, we're getting off track here. What are some other tips or techniques that you would recommend for people who have to attend a lot of meetings? So they don't necessarily run them, but they're in a lot of meetings. And, you know, you can kind of feel sour about that sometimes where it's like, okay, I've got, I know that this is important meeting. So like you understand that it's it's purposeful. But are there some things that you would recommend to people just to kind of keep the, maybe not keep the energy high, but like just keep a level head about, okay, I'm gonna be a good person in this meeting. I'm not gonna roll my eyes. I'm not going to to do those things that I feel like I want to do internally, but you know, I'm just gonna stay focused.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Ah, yes, staying, staying focused and contributing. There's there's some great stats on what people do during meetings, particularly virtual and online meetings, where 35% of people are shot admit to shopping online. That's what they're doing. Shopping online during a meeting. Could you imagine doing that in person? You've got an in-person meeting, and then you just out comes a laptop, open up whichever you're shopping, wherever you're shopping and just buying stuff. We wouldn't do it in person, but we do it quite a lot virtually. And while it's easier to do it virtually because there's there's less social pressure, people can't see our screen, the underlying cause is the thing that will address your question. The underlying cause of things like I'm scrolling social media, I'm shopping, I'm doing other things, is because I don't either understand or agree that I can actively contribute to the meeting. If somebody knows that they need to and can actively contribute to the purpose and the output, they want to. Will pay more attention unless they are really exhausted or have something else that's a higher priority. And so many times we we invite people to meetings because it might be, you know, they might be interested or I think they could contribute. And that is setting a meeting up for failure and making people attend things they don't need to. So as the person planning the meeting, we need to be intentional for every single person that we invite. What will they do to contribute to the purpose and help produce this output? And here's what we can do as individuals. When we get invited to lots of meetings, and I lived this as a project manager and a leader in a project department for many years, we would have times when there were up to five meetings booked for the same time. And we'd have to choose between them. And part of that choice comes from do I understand the contribution that I will make? And if I don't, I need to ask. And I don't ask in the open during the beginning of the meeting, like, hey, Tammy, why did you invite me to this? I don't see any purpose for me. That's not particularly great. But before the meeting, hey, Tammy, I just want to check what I'm contributing to. And I'm not clear what the purpose is. Can you clarify that for me? If we take that responsibility for ourselves and we get clear on how we can contribute, then we are much more likely to be engaged and our energy would be up because we know that what we're doing is relevant. That's how we do it.

Peer Down Pointer And Closing

SPEAKER_02 23:32

That's awesome. I think I default back to I'll just take notes. But that would be so much more helpful to actually see the relevance and the purpose rather than just, oh, I'll I'll take the notes today. Chris, I feel like you've given me so much hope about what meetings could be like. I feel really hopeful now and I want to dive further into the book and have more of a look at it to make sure that we're doing everything we can as a participant and as a facilitator to have really great meetings. So thank you so much. But I know you know as a returning guest that we ask for a peer-down pointer before we wrap up our episodes. Do you have a great peer-down pointer today?

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Yes, the the one takeaway from this to make everything better in all meetings is whether you're sending an invitation or you're receiving an invitation. If the topic, the purpose, and the output aren't clear, ask. If you're receiving it, ask. If you're writing the invitation, put them in. Topic, purpose, and output. Those things will help you plan a good meeting, introduce a good meeting, run a good meeting.

SPEAKER_03 24:41

Thank you so much, Chris. I love that the tip is simple. It's something I can do very easily. And I will write that acronym down when I'm doing my planning so that I stay focused. Thank you so much for being with us today.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Ah, it's been a pleasure as always. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services, supporting educators with forward-thinking professional learning that puts both student impact and teacher wellness at the center. Driven by a vision to teach less, impact more, they help educators find purpose, prioritize what matters, and simplify their practice. Learn more at planzeducation.com.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Thank you for listening to the Minimalist Educator Podcast. Join Christine and Tammy and guests again next time for more conversations about how to simplify and clarify the responsibilities and tasks in your role. If today's episode helped you rethink, reimagine, reduce, or realign something in your practice, share it in a comment or with a colleague. For resources and updates, visit planzeducation.com and subscribe to receive weekly emails. Until next time, keep it simple and stay intentional.