The Minimalist Educator Podcast
A podcast about paring down to focus on the purpose and priorities in our roles.
The Minimalist Educator Podcast
Ep 121 — Perfectionism Part 1: Everyone's Favorite Flaw with Christine and Tammy
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Perfectionism has a strange reputation in education. It gets treated like a badge of honor, a humble brag, and a “safe” weakness to admit, even while it quietly drains our time, energy, and joy. We kick off our four-part series by looking at why perfectionism becomes so normalized for teachers, school leaders, and even parents, and how it can show up in places we barely notice, from over polishing lessons to rewriting emails and second guessing work that is already strong.
We talk about the social rewards that keep perfectionism alive: praise for high standards, recognition for doing more, and the illusion that it all looks effortless. But what people don’t see is the pressure behind the scenes, the anxious mental math, and the self criticism when our output doesn’t meet our own unrelenting expectations. We also explore how perfectionism sets a risky pace for the people around us, creating unrealistic norms that can spread through a school culture.
Then we shift to a more sustainable approach: choosing “good enough” on purpose. Good enough still meets the goal, still serves students, and often still exceeds the expectation, but it gives us permission to stop before burnout does it for us. We close with a simple pear-down pointer on practicing that stopping point, plus a nudge to look up a fuller definition of perfectionism so you can spot it more clearly in your own habits. If this resonates, subscribe, share with a colleague, and leave a review so more educators can find the series.
Find our book The Minimalist Teacher and Your School Leadership Edit: A Minimalist Approach to Rethinking Your School's Ecosystem at the links!
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Welcome And Series Setup
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Minimalist Educator podcast, where the focus is on a less is more approach to education. Join your hosts, Christine Arnold and Tammy Musiowski, authors of The Minimalist Teacher and your school leadership edit, a minimalist approach to rethinking your school ecosystem, each week as they explore practical ways to simplify your work, sharpen your focus, and amplify what matters most so you can teach and lead with greater clarity, purpose, and joy.
SPEAKER_02How are you today, Tammy? Doing well, Christine, how are you? Very well, thank you. Very well. Excited to get into the episode today. We are going to be
Why Perfectionism Shows Up Everywhere
SPEAKER_02doing a four-part series on a topic that we've recently been really very interested in. And we're excited to get into this series and share some of our reading and thinking and discussions with everybody. So our four-part series is going to be all about perfectionism.
SPEAKER_01Yes. This I think is a topic that many people will be able to connect to, ourselves included. And yeah, there's definitely some pieces that I know that you and I have both been reading about and starting to write about that just when you start reading about it, you're you recognize it in a lot of different places and different experiences that we've had and different habits that we've created. And so yeah, I'm looking forward to getting into this and sharing these ideas with our listeners.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think previously I probably had thought about perfectionism in my students, but really when you start breaking it down and thinking about it the way that it could potentially play out for perfectionist teachers, perfectionist parents, perfectionist leaders. Like it's all very layered, isn't it? Actually.
SPEAKER_01It really is. And I kind of wish I could go back to some of the teaching experiences that I had and examine them and see like where was I really leaning into, like, that's not right. That's not it's not right, it's not good enough. It's not good enough. I need to spend more time on this and think about those situations differently because I'm sure, you know, now I recognize it more and I I've gotten more into the mindset of this is exceeds the standard, or not the standard, my expectation or the expectation. It's leave it. It is it is good, it is done. Let it go. So to go bunk would be interesting, I think.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I can definitely remember when we were working together in Singapore, sitting around and being overly critical of our like displays and the way things were cut out when they were laminated and things like that.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Isn't that it's just so funny? And where does that come from? I'm not really sure, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't remember even like in my experience of school growing up. I I remember all of my classrooms, but I don't really remember
The “Favorite Flaw” Problem
SPEAKER_01my teachers being a certain way with things or having things perfect. But you know, this was in the 80s and 90s as well. So who knows what they were thinking. That was a little different, yes. It very much was. Very much was.
SPEAKER_02Uh, topic to t for today is really that idea that perfectionism is favorite flaw, it is a very popular flaw for people to have. And I'd I straightaway think about the classic, you know, interview question of, you know, what's your weakness? What do you need to work on? And people saying perfectionism as a way of actually saying, oh no, look at me. I'm actually good. I don't have a weakness, I don't have a flaw. But actually the truth might be a little bit different.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that that's probably a real flaw. And it's it is tricky though, right? Because like there's reasons why people want to appear to have all their ducks in a row. I don't know why that's a saying, but that just felt like the right to bring into play there. Like, because I guess it's a it's a hard thing to do, right? Like how do it's like wrangling kittens too. Like, how do you do that? And so if you can appear to wrangle all your kittens together or get all your ducks in a row, then wow, look at that person. Like you get some some recognition for that. And that's kind of like it could be it could be authentic and it could be not, or it could be very surface level. And it, but it does give the appearance that someone just really cares about something and they want it to be just right or perfect. And I keep thinking to myself, too, as someone who's let go of some of the perfectionism things, like everybody's perfect is different, and what you think is perfect is not gonna be maybe what I think, and maybe it is, but you know, I don't know, it's just so subjective. And so when we try to hold ourselves and especially people around us to this same type of expectation, we're just going to crumble, I guess. And we're gonna talk more about this kind of thing in in another episode, but it's hard not to talk about all these ideas because they're they're so connected, but just because something isn't perfect to you doesn't mean you don't care because you have put a lot of energy into something.
SPEAKER_02True, yeah, yeah, it is it is very much when when you think about that favorite floor idea, it is almost like people are doing a little bit of bragging, really, isn't it? Like, oh I'm such a perfectionist, I had to keep working on this, and it can't stop until it's just
Rewards, Pressure, And Hidden Costs
SPEAKER_02right. So it's it it is it is almost a little bit, yeah, it's a little bit showy almost in a way, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Yeah. And man, I just lost my thoughts. You had mentioned that kind of humble bread, and man, it's gone. But I think the reason why it becomes has become this way is because we do get rewarded for it, right? So people give you the recognition, like, oh, that's so amazing and so great, and your school rewards you for it for like all these hours and spending all this time. And but like we have to think about what the cost is to our mental sanity, our energy levels, our time. The costs are really big. And when you think about you just individual acts of like, oh, I really need to perfect this lesson because I'm getting observed tomorrow. I really need to make sure that this parent email is exactly the right wording. On the other end, is it gonna matter to someone else as much as it matters to you? Probably not. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Part of the part of the nuance of perfectionism is I think that idea that it's it's so effortless. Like I look look at all that I've done, and it wasn't even an effort, and I was happy to do it. And I think that's that's quite a dangerous path to go down, not just for the perfectionists themselves, but for people around them as well, because you could think like, oh, this is achievable. Whatever they're doing, everyone can do it. They're not putting in any massive effort and they're happy to do it. So, you know, it's achievable for everyone. But in actual fact, they're not seeing the pressure that that person is putting on themselves, and you know, the worry and anxiousness and you know, self-flagellation, probably even at times, if they haven't, you know, met their own unrelenting standards. So yeah, I think I think that idea of like, oh, you know, it just happened like that is kind of a dangerous thing for us to be around. But for sure, it is definitely socially rewarded. It's rewarded in society to have really exceptionally high standards and to do that at all costs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. It kind of parallels that culture of busyness that we live in too, right? So it's like I'm so busy and I can do all these things perfectly, like I can get to all the appointments and get everybody's schedules in order, and I can stay on top of my job and I
Busyness Culture And Burnout Risk
SPEAKER_01can do all these things. But in the background, back to the ducks, like they look calm and cool on the surface, but underneath those little feet are just going, and that's a lot of energy. And I don't know how ducks just don't sing or stop moving, but that can just lead to burnout, as we know, because you need you just can't keep going and keep up that kind of facade of I'm doing it all and I'm fine. I'm fine. But we know what that answer really means. You're not yes, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Can be. Can be. Yeah, I think that's a really I think that's a really good point, is that yeah, there is there is downsides to it. You know, people think it's just getting things done, but you know, actually really being punishing about your standards is not a very happy place to be at all. And it can lead to other side effects as well, which we'll get into more in in the coming up episodes as well. But yeah, I think, yeah, while it continues to be a popular flaw, you know, you you're not gonna get the same reaction from people if you say I don't care, or I I'm a I'm a procrastinator, or you know, I have a temper or have issues with anger. Like you're gonna get a different reaction from society if you say things like that. But while we continue to think highly of people who are perfectionists, I think it is quite an issue with everyone associated in schools.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I agree. And we did an episode, I think it was last season,
Choosing Good Enough On Purpose
SPEAKER_01the one called Ish, where we were talking about good enough. So that might be if current listeners haven't listened to that one, that might be an interesting episode to go back to and listen to as well. Because I mean, good enough won't when we say that's good enough, it doesn't mean you're lowering your expectation. It just means that you're making that deliberate decision to say this is probably even you know beyond the expectation anyway. But as a perfectionist, like it it just feels so different. So that decision to be like, okay, no, this is good enough for what I need it to be, it's gonna serve the purpose, it will meet the it will meet the objective or whatever the thing is, and and just learning to be okay with that, it takes some time, but it's if you want to save your sanity, you have to move in that direction.
SPEAKER_02That's it, yeah. You're like as a perfectionist, you're you know, 50 set 50 is probably other people's full effort, you know? So it you're the only one who's doing that to yourself. No one else is asking you to go that far.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, so I'm excited about this series because there really are just so many layers to talk about with just habits we've created and just making it a normal part of our lives without realizing what we're doing for ourselves and the people around us. So I'm looking forward to this.
SPEAKER_02Me too. Do you have a pear-down pointer just from this episode?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I would say just kind of to my last point about the good enough. This might not feel like a peer-down pointer because you have to work at it, but just making that deliberate decision to say I'm gonna stop here because this is good enough for what it needs to be. And so I think that's a step in the right direction.
SPEAKER_02How about you? I think I would just go with check out the definition of perfectionism. Because I think, you know, we do because because it is so socially rewarded, we do think of it as just, you know, achieving wealth. But actually, there's a lot more to it than that. And so I think if we more of us were aware of actually what it is, uh I think just that knowledge will will change things if you find yourself feeling like, oh, you know, I'm just a perfectionist. Or you hear somebody else say, you know, that they have those tendencies, I think it'll it'll shift that thinking around what perfectionism actually is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree.
Pear-Down Pointers And Closing
SPEAKER_02Please tune back in again next week for part two in our series about perfectionism. This episode is sponsored by Plan Z Education Services, supporting educators with forward-thinking professional learning that puts both student impact and teacher wellness at the center. Driven by a vision to teach less, impact more, they help educators find purpose, prioritize what matters, and simplify their practice. Learn more at planzeducation.com.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for listening to the Minimalist Educator Podcast. Join Christine and Tammy and guests again next time for more conversations about how to simplify and clarify the responsibilities and tasks in your role. If today's episode helped you rethink, reimagine, reduce, or realign something in your practice, share it in a comment or with a colleague. For resources and updates, visit planzeducation.com and subscribe to receive weekly emails. Until next time, keep it simple and stay intentional.
