Nip in the bud with Jolene Ironside: Trauma and ADHD: supporting children at school and home.

Today I speak with Jolene Ironside. Jolene is an Integrative Counsellor using the Arts, ADHD Coach and holistic therapist who specialises in children and young people, families, trauma, sensory processing and neurodivergence.

She is a trained trauma therapist, sensory profiler and skilled in nervous system regulation. Jolene brings the mind and body into her practice, providing a holistic approach to support her clients.

Summary
In this episode of the Nip in the Bud podcast, Jolene shares her extensive journey from the travel industry to becoming a holistic therapist and counselor specializing in working with children and young people, particularly those with ADHD and trauma. She discusses the importance of understanding trauma, the role of the nervous system in emotional regulation, and how to create supportive environments in schools. Jolene emphasizes the need for a holistic approach to ADHD, focusing on strengths rather than deficits, and provides practical strategies for parents and educators to help children thrive.

Throughout our conversation we look at different strategies that Jolene encourages those who care for children to use. I think one of the main takeaways for me is to make sure, as parents or professionals, we are recognising and responding to the needs we see in front of us with speed. We can make small tweaks and changes to the environment, to routines, to our expectations and to the resources we use. These changes will help prevent a child from getting to the point of overwhelm. Once in overwhelm the child becomes dysregulated and it is far more challenging to help them. Prevention seems to be key here.

Listen for ideas on how to help those children you care for from burn out or meltdowns that in some cases can be avoided.

Main takeaways

• Jolene's journey includes diverse experiences in therapy and education.
• Trauma is an emotional and psychological reaction to uncontrollable events.
• Understanding autonomic responses helps shift the narrative from 'bad behavior' to 'survival response'.
• Nervous system regulation is key to emotional well-being.
• Children need supportive environments to thrive, not just behavior management.
• ADHD is a spectrum of traits with both strengths and challenges.
• Mindfulness and movement breaks can significantly aid focus and emotional regulation.
• Co-regulation involves providing cues of safety to dysregulated children.
• Creating sensory circuits can help children process stress effectively.
• It's essential to celebrate children's uniqueness and strengths.

keywords
trauma, ADHD, nervous system regulation, holistic therapy, education, mindfulness, emotional regulation, neurodiversity, children's mental health, supportive environments

Links

Jolene Ironside
https://www.heartinmind.co.uk/

Nip in the Bud - Where to get help

https://nipinthebud.org/where-to-get-help/

Chapters

• 1:48 Jolene's background
• 6:32 What do you mean by trauma and how might we recognise it in a child?
• 7:54 How do we regulate in the body?
• 8:34 What behaviours might we see in a child who is in a flight or fight state?
• 9:48 What is nervous system regulation?
• 13:37 Outside influences affecting our autonomic nervous system
• 14:09 Having ADHD and not feeling 'good enough'
• 15:39 What ideas do you have for school professionals to help children regulate their nervous system
• 17:05 How to help a child before they get to the point of dysregulation
• 17:24 Sensory circuits
• 18:31 Moving chemicals through and out of the body to feel better
• 18:54 Body brushing
• 19:21 Sharing cues of safety to a child
• 21:09 How our emotional response will impact the child
• 23:34 How art can help children put their feelings into words
• 25:16 Emerging research of ADHD
• 27:44 Focusing on the positive behaviours
• 27:48 What signs can you look for in a child who may have ADHD?
• 30:21 What changes can we make in the classroom?
• 31:02 How to change the environment to help the child with ADHD
• 31:36 What can a school put in place for children and families with ADHD or trauma
• 33:33 Working collaboratively

Transcript

Alis 

Hi, Jolene, and welcome to the Nip in the Bud podcast.

Jolene 

Hi Alice, thank you for having me.

Alis 

You're welcome. Okay, let's hit the road. Let's start with your background. Could you tell us a little bit about your background, please?

Jolene 

So I began my career in the travel industry and then I moved into accountancy and qualified as a chartered accountant. And I went on to work as a computer programmer for accounting software. And alongside this, I started to train in holistic therapy, so massage, kinesiology, Reiki, nutrition, and I had a real passion for the body. And so I set up a private clinic in my spare time.

And then years later when I went on to have my children, I was still working part time as a programmer and I began to explore looking at change in my career. I knew I always wanted to work with people, so I trained as a relaxed kids coach teacher, a yoga teacher and a mindfulness in schools practitioner. And then I started working in the community in local classes and providing emotion regulation classes, relaxation classes and I did that for around 10 years and I found that most of my work, the children that were coming to classes had diagnosis of ADHD and autism or in schools I was working with the children that found it difficult to be in that environment.

So I started to expand and my work took me to work with adopted children and those that had experienced a lot of trauma. And I went into social, emotional, mental health schools, providing, well, what I created was sensory yoga circuits for young people. And I found that sometimes they were finding it difficult to be in the classroom. They were quite dysregulated and they would come through and work with me and I started to apply kind of a bottom -up approach to regulation, so really working with the body with them and we would do drumming, movement, as I say the sensory yoga and I'd bring in like different oils and smells and things for them to work with and as they started to become more regulated we would then sit around after the relaxation and they were able to then talk about or process what it was that was happening for them that morning or what it was that they were struggling to do to be able to be in the class and I found that really quite powerful and so that kind of led me then on to combine the mind and the body.

So I went on to train as an integrative counsellor using the arts and I specialised in adolescence. That's where my work had taken me. And then what I found as I set up my private clinic and I also work at ‘Divergent Life’, that our children or the young people, families coming to us are neurodivergent. So I completed further training in autism, ADHD and child accelerated trauma therapy and that's where I work in my private practice and at Divergent Life. We run a neuro affirming service providing assessment therapy and coaching and I'm working in schools, communities and with families and a lot of young people that are out of school actually. 

So some of my work has taken me to advocate for young people in school to see  if they can get to mainstream school  and can get the accommodations that they need. And some of it is where they've gone into homeschooling or they've experienced school trauma. And it's about how we work through that together so that they can begin to move forward.

Alis 

Wow, what a journey. It sounds amazing and it's really interesting to hear how you moved through your journey once you'd started working with children and young people and seeing that link between mind and body and drawing that all together. A couple of, sorry, I was just gonna say a couple of things that really come out there and I think it might be worth just digging a bit deeper as you talked about trauma.

What do you mean by trauma? Is there a simple definition? Is there something that you would notice in a child that would lead you to believe there's been trauma in the background?

Jolene 

Well, the accepted definition of trauma is an emotional and psychological reaction to uncontrollable events. 

So there are autonomic responses that happen completely unconsciously. Because most of the young people I work with are either referred to me or they're already in the system, then we know that they've already experienced trauma. So it's really understanding then how these autonomic responses that they're having and how they're completely unconscious. So having that understanding which takes us out of the kind of they're behaving badly, you know, that kind of narrative to actually what's happened to that young person and an understanding that there's no control, they're in survival response much like like what I was saying with the ones that were say in in corridors not being able to go in to school seeing seeing that okay this is deep rooted and it's a survival response governed by their autonomic nervous system and that's where you know that words and talking and things like that aren't going to help and actually you need to start to regulate in the body first. Nobody's logically thinking in that response, it really is a survival response and they're doing what they can to keep themselves safe.

Alis 

Yeah, yeah. What sort of things might a parent or a teacher see in a child's behaviours that might lead them to believe these are autonomic, this is just a response to trauma?

Jolene 

I always kind of think that irritability, anger, know really rage, frustration, that kind of real social defence that really coming up against it so you're outwardly seeing those behaviours and yeah or fleeing, like we would often see young people just trying to escape the building as well. Or the other thing is that it's internal or there's the panic, the worry, the fear. 

Alis 

And I can see when you describe those or you list those, it's almost like these are naughty behaviours that you might see in a child. You could label them as naughty, but really understanding this isn't a chosen act. They're behaving from a point of dysregulated nervous system, and they have no choice. What do you mean by nervous system regulation, the importance of nervous system regulation?

Jolene 

So I work according to the Polyvagal theory and what that states is that the autonomic nervous system is the foundation for our well-being and it's key to understanding stress as well. It really informs our understanding of social behaviour, negative and positive, and the links to feelings of safety or feelings of threat in the environment. So that's how I view behaviour through that lens.

Alis 

What's the polyvagal theory? Can you expand on that slightly?

Jolene 

Yeah, so it originated by Dr. Stephen Porges and it focuses on two distinct branches of the vagal nerve and we're looking at the sympathetic which is your fight or flight response and the parasympathetic of social engagement or freeze response. 

Alis

Why do you think it's important that we understand as either parents or carers or teachers how the nervous system works? Why is this an important part of looking after children and young people?

Jolene 

So when a child feels unsafe in their environment, their threat response is activated and that's likely when you're going to see this social defence. They might flee a situation or come up to fight a situation or shut down. They're, as I say, they're in that survival mode. When we feel safe, we're able to connect socially to others to better access the higher brain functions. And we can have that, we feel calm, connected. We're more resilient to life's challenges. When we don't feel unsafe, that's when our autonomic nervous system responds by taking action. And in this state is where you might notice fast breathing, feeling hot, they're quick to anger, or you're noticing that anxiety. 

So if the feeling of not being safe doesn't go away, that's when another branch of the parasympathetic nervous system shuts us down. So in this state, you start to notice extreme fatigue, difficulty with digestion or feelings of depression. It's like when we've been stuck in that cycle of fight or flight for too long, then your body starts to conserve the resources to protect you really.

Alis 

You used the term shut down there. What do you mean by that?

Jolene 

When a child shuts down, is their nervous system gone into a freeze response? As I said before, been in this fight of like they've been working outside of their window of tolerance for too long, much like adults, when our to-do lists do not get any shorter and we're constantly up against it. When we have been in  it for too long, that's when we start to move down and our bodies are really trying to conserve our resources. So you might notice like I say that extreme fatigue, feelings of depression, kind of loss of hope, feeling trapped and really those feelings of shame as well when we're in there.

Alis 

What I'm hearing you say there is it's all the outside influences, isn't it? That's making that child feel shameful. being told that you're not good enough because you're not performing in the right way, I suppose.

Jolene 

Yeah, exactly that. and you know, if tasks are set and then your, because your learning process, your learning style is different, being unable to keep up with everybody, you know, or how you internalise that and always feeling that you're not good enough. You don't, because you don't fit the mould, it's...how you see that all we think with ADHD, know, they're often told that you're lazy or a task is set and you couldn't start it because you have challenges with say task initiation and then you're kept in at break time, you're punished for that. Then you've missed out on your movement break and the kind of the whole knock on effect of this. What I'm seeing then is young people constantly trying to, I hear a lot, why don't I work? Or why can't I do this? Why can't I do that? And that's where you then, then it's just, I'm not good enough, can't, it's too much, it's too much. That's where that feeling comes from.

Alis 

Thank you. So we've sort of talked a lot about the behaviours and the dysregulation. If we could just think about an adult in school, so whether we're talking about the head teacher or Senco or TA or teacher, what would you suggest they do in a school environment that would help to regulate a child's nervous system?

Jolene 

Well, what we want to do, really what would be ideal Alis, is if we put preventative measures in place. So we're not letting a child get to the point where they're so dysregulated that it's hard for them to come back. But actually, putting different things in place throughout the day for all children where they can let go of some of those stresses. 

So I always think about children carrying a backpack around with them and from the minute they get up that starts filling up with different stresses. So whatever that child is coping with and if I think of like an autistic individual they're putting the uniform on that doesn't feel comfortable for them. it's maybe a bit more tricky for them to to kind of organise their executive function in the morning to be able to get everything in place to be to school on time and then in the background is like when I get into school there's going to be a lot of noise a lot of smells a lot of people all of these things are going into their backpack so how do we help them empty that out?

before it gets to the point where it's so full that they're dysregulated. that I know in some primary schools, like they do, you know, sensory circuits and things like that, which can be helpful. At home, I'll always suggest to parents about creating a sensory circuit as well at home, just to help process some of that cortisol through their bodies.

A lot of young people experience those tummy aches in the mornings and actually rolling along the yoga ball can be really helpful to ease the tummy aches. If you have either a trampoline or like a rebounder, things like that, kind of bouncing on those. So when when we start to see those worries really, really building up, it's like, how can we move that through so that we can come to a place where we can actually look at those worries as well if we need to. But it could be, as I say, the yoga ball, the bouncing, it might be lifting some weights or kind of wall press ups, star jumps and things like that. So we're really, really moving things, moving all those stress chemicals through their bodies.

Alis 

So is literally moving chemicals through the body. It's literally coming, when you look at it from a sort of physiological point of view, it's getting them moving, getting the blood pumping, heart and lungs working and pushing that cortisol through.

Jolene 

Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly that. And sometimes, and you know, this is what I used to do in the sensory circuits as well, is sometimes we'll do like body brushing, obviously, you know, if the young person, that's okay for them, but that real, and this is, you know, they do it themselves, but that real kind of firm brushing down the body, down the arms, down the legs and down the back again just to move some of this energy out of their bodies.

Alis 

Thank you. You've talked about regulation. What is meant by co -regulation or being a co -regulator? And how might this look in school or at home?

Jolene 

So when you're regulated, you can provide cues of safety to a child who's dysregulated. And you can do that just with your presence, slowing down your breathing and thinking about your tone of voice as well. So if we think about when a baby cries, we pick them up and we soothe them and we talk to them with gentle tones. We have a warmth in our facial expression and our tone of voice. And that's really what we want to do as well when our children are dysregulated. So it's, you know, we're human. So it's not always possible to do that, but it's that, I suppose, taking a step back, pausing yourself, checking in with where you are and how, you know, what your nervous system is doing as well and then really providing your child with those cues of safety that they can have those big feelings and you're there to help them through it.

Alis 

I really like that because as you said, we're human and we can so often have this huge emotional response to a situation. So when I was a teacher in school or a head teacher, I might be thinking, I've got 30 children that I need to get to assembly on time and this child's doing this and that might be everything that I'm thinking about, but actually that's not gonna help regulate that child who's having a difficult time and what I needed to have done is start with me and just think, I can feel that emotional response. Let me do some breathing so that I can then move that through to the child and come down to their level and have that conversation with them. And I think if I put my parent head on, the same thing, I might be trying to rush my kids out in the morning, trying to get them to school and I'm getting all pent up and my voice is changing and they can see that energy in me and that's just not gonna help the situation. So I think you're absolutely right. Starting with ourselves just thinking, okay, I can see this is happening, how's it impacting on me first? How can I then get into a place where I can help regulate somebody else?

Jolene 

Yeah, you're absolutely right. .

Alis 

Okay. Jolene, you have touched on this when you talked about your background, but could you just tell us what work you do to support parents and schools, just in a little bit more detail? 

Jolene 

Yeah, so I run whole school training to introduce a whole school approach to mental health. So that includes not just teachers, also playground supervisors, lunchtime supervisors, caretakers, so anybody that comes into contact with children and young people so that they have they're informed on the mental health. I provide trauma informed yoga sessions, sensory yoga, mindfulness and relaxation classes. And also through that, I will...give teachers kind of information that I've spotted that I think might be helpful, obviously with the young person's permission always. But if I see that this might be helpful for them in class or challenges that they're having that I think might be helpful or accommodations that could help them, then I'll give that, like I say, with permission of the young person but I'll provide that information to teachers as well. And then I'm an integrative counsellor to adolescents and I use the arts because it provides powerful insights into a young person's world where often they may find it hard to put their feelings into words so I'll use the sand tray, clay, painting, images, any of the arts to really bridge that gap. I work as an ADHD coach as well as a specialist in autistism. And I work as well as a specialist advisor for Young Minds. I'm the specialist parent advisor there. And then my work again with counselling or coaching, I not only work with the young person but I work with the family as well. So sometimes, you know, if the young person is unable for whatever reason to come to the session then I'll work with the family or again working with the young person and anything that they think might be helpful with the family then we will work together to pass that information on.

Alis 

You've talked about your work with children with ADHD. Let's focus on that for a bit here. How would you describe ADHD first of all? What does that mean?

Jolene 

Well I'll use the words of Dr Hallowell where he describes ADHD as a spectrum of traits and with each positive there's a corresponding negative and at Divergent Life we really include the neurobiological of ADHD in line with emerging research and the neurodiversity paradigm. So it's a condition that makes executive function more challenging. So when I'm working with young people, looking at how they experience the world, which for the majority is about sensory information, how they understand and learn about the world. And like some young people I've worked with see such colours and shapes or they experience the world through shapes it's incredible and there's that ability to think and act quickly when they're passionate about something like every like you can really see it as well every part of them comes alive there's also you know there's a lot of challenges in there as well so it's really kind of there is that outside of the the box thinking and I think as well like Dr Hallowell will say that it's not attention deficit but there's a real abundance of attention actually and the challenge is how to control it but there's also what I'm seeing is that real experience of intense emotions and having difficulty regulating or naming them so and we know that self -regulation is used a lot in life.

So I kind of, suppose through the years of having that sort of the background knowledge of the executive functions and then seeing how that shows up either in sessions with me or that's how you start to see where the strengths are but also where the challenges are and how we can use the strengths to support the challenges or we can try to put in that kind of scaffolding really to support the young person to help them to thrive. So it's kind of, you see those areas of vulnerability and it's a place so that you can start safeguarding the young person.

Alis 

I love the idea of noticing the vulnerability, adding the scaffolding to help them, but focusing on the positives and the bits that they can do well and highlighting that. What would a parent notice in their child? If somebody might be thinking, I wonder if my child has ADHD, what sort of signs would they be looking for?

Jolene 

Well we know we know the kind of you know we hear a lot of the the big the intense emotions and maybe finding it difficult to concentrate in the class or you might see that, well, you might hear, well, they're always disrupting the class. I suppose it's the focus, the concentration, it's these things that are kind of what people observe, what they see. And really, you know, the kind of, the clinical observations would be concentration, hyperactivity and impulsivity. It's that kind of thing parents might start to see or they might just notice, you know,

I suppose you are starting to see those challenges as well in school or in different environments and I would say really then it's about if you start to think or maybe maybe this is something then it's worth you know kind of doing research and really digging deep and looking into understanding to see you know more possibly that might be what my child has.

Alis 

And what sort of success stories have you got that you could share, the work that you've done, so you've talked about the type of things that you do with families and children and in schools, how has that helped?

Jolene 

So in primary schools it's helped like when I'm doing the yoga, the relaxation and mindfulness, obviously mindfulness helps with that focus and we're doing it very gently. teachers have come back to say you know that they find the child that they're working with after the sessions that they're able to articulate what's going on for them, they are, I suppose they're kind of getting the chance to have that movement, that break, have somebody to talk and to listen to them that gets them, and then they're able to manage their emotions and regulate their emotions and that's been the same from parents. 

Things that are helpful is they can make changes in the classroom based on what we're seeing in the sessions or in the therapy sessions that then also help the young person to feel a bit more empowered as well because we're changing the environment as opposed to changing the child. And that's where we want to go with this Alis really, it's not about behaviour management and getting a child to be a certain way, but it's actually understanding well that these are the things that they need in the environment in order to be able to thrive, so putting those things in place in the classroom, helps the young person as well with their internal narrative, their self -esteem and understanding, right, this is how my brain works and these are the things that I need. So they start to also advocate for themselves. 

Alis

So Blue Sky Thinking, what would be a really good plan for a school day to look like for a child with ADHD? What would you like a school to be able to put in place?

Jolene 

Managing ADHD is very individual so there isn't, you know, there isn't a one -size -fits -all but there are educational supports you can put in place, there's family and behavioural supports you can do at home as well but they'll look different for each individual and soI mean, ideally… families that I've worked with and I know we're talking about a school day but families are often swamped so quite often the parents are already experiencing their own anxiety and depression so there's a real family base impact here so life can be stressful with or without ADHD and I think it's really important you know that it's kind of everybody works together.

An ideal day and this really would benefit all children are those those movement breaks and then again but some children won't want to do them either so it's you know that we have to kind of consider that because I really do feel for teachers where there's you know you have got 30 children but ideally movement breaks having that space to be creative.

We quite often see or hear that children, you know, they sit down in the class and they, you know, they can't talk to their partner. They have to focus, they have to listen, they have to look at the teacher and things like that. But actually, what about them being creative? What if they talk to their partner and they come up with some incredible ideas together? You know, being able to have that creativity.

To have a voice and be listened to. then, as I say, that chance to work collaboratively with others that they feel comfortable with. Ideally would be to have those individual profiles acknowledged, wouldn't it? To really celebrate that uniqueness. Helping young people feel safe, accepted.

And mindfulness breaks in there as well. As I say that, you know, it would help all young people, not just those with ADHD.

Alis 

You mentioned there about a class full of 30. Have you got any advice for teachers and how they might be able to make those little tweaks for a specific child?

Jolene 

I know in primary schools, some schools I worked with, those children were able to create their own kind of fidget baskets that they were able to use. Sometimes putting resistance bands around the bottom of the chairs that the child can push on. Sitting on wobble chairs can be helpful.

We get to secondary school and also the young person then doesn't want to be seen to be different as well. But there are things like, you know, could have a small piece of Velcro in the pocket that you can fidget with between your hands. That feeling can be quite helpful. And there's a thing of doodle pads and, you know, they shouldn't be doing it, but actually we know as long as it's not the primary focus, it actually can help a young person to focus on the work if they are able just to be kind of doodling on their pad. As long as it's a secondary focus, then it helps them to listen. it's really, you know, talking to that young person, what might be helpful to them, having a good understanding of executive functions and the challenges and being able to put those supports in place.

So other things. We know that time is a challenge for ADHD individuals. being able, you know, externalising time, externalising time. So putting out clocks, timers, and counters. Breaking up projects. So if there's long -term projects, breaking them down into small daily tasks rather than, you know, you've got to hand this in and...three or four weeks time, but break that down into daily tasks. And then helping with transitions. So you wanna be anticipating the possible challenges that are coming up and putting supports in place to help the child. that can be like, I'll often hear as well, well, you know, they go out for the movement break, but then we can't get them back in. 

And again, it's like it can be really hard to suddenly leave that behind, line up, come in and sit down. So, you know, what transitions could you do with them? And that is to help them anticipate what's coming up next. There could be like a sensory kind of activity in between, you know, just for a couple of minutes. Like, you know, that sensory grounding activity whilst you're telling them what's coming up next, what's about to happen and then setting them a task so that keeps them busy. So you're being proactive, not reactive to it. Motivation can be challenging so we want to not rely on self motivation but actually externalise it using motivation rewards as well. So instead of the kind of punishment which creates that internal narrative, you know, the class clown always being in trouble, but what can help motivate them. I've said about doodling and then mindfulness that  tense and release body scans to reduce stress and then focus on your breath and your and your posture. So we really want to kind of shift the focus from a problem to being a goal that we can work with. So that I would add in that.

Alis 

A lot of those things you can just see would be beneficial for the whole class. that mindfulness and the breathing and the posture and all of that would be really useful. And I think we all struggle with transitions. It doesn't matter how old we get. again, thinking about transitions for your whole class. 

Thank you. What would you say are your key things that you'd want our audience to take away from your conversation today, Jolene?

Jolene

I would say to really understand the challenges that come with ADHD and get to know the executive functions, put support in place to accommodate your child. There's a lot of onus on the child, now, it's like, we give them an exit card, but actually again, you're still relying on that child to know when to use it and that's not fair. It's being able to have those regular breaks in place so that you're supporting them to take those breaks. So put those supports in place to accommodate, remove the owners, look at their strengths as well and draw on those strengths to really support the areas that are challenging. And my key takeaway is to change the environment, not the child.

Alis 

I love both of those last two things you said about looking for strengths. I think we can often just focus on what they can't do or what is a dysregulated behaviour, but actually focus on the strength and change the environment rather than change the child. I think that's key. Jolene, it's been fantastic talking to you today and thank you for all your tips and ideas. I think our listeners will find it really, really useful. Thank you for all the work you're doing with all these families as well.

Jolene 

Thank you Alis, thank you for your time today.