Nip in the Bud® Podcast - The children's mental health health charity

Nip in the Bud with Jessica Bondy: What is the hidden impact of verbal abuse on children?

• Nip in the Bud Children's Mental Charity

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In this episode of the Nip in the Bud podcast, Jessica Bondy shares her journey from a successful career in communications to founding a charity aimed at ending childhood verbal abuse by adults. She discusses the profound impact of verbal abuse on children's mental health, the importance of raising awareness, and practical steps adults can take to foster positive communication. Jessica emphasizes that words matter and can shape a child's self-esteem and future, urging listeners to build children up rather than knock them down.

This episode covers verbal abuse, childhood, mental health, effective communication as parents and educationalists, brain development awareness, coaching, legacy, self-esteem, empowerment, and education.

The main takeaways from this episode are:
Verbal abuse affects two in five children, often going unnoticed.
The long-term effects of verbal abuse can include anxiety, depression, and self-harm.
Adults often inflict verbal abuse unintentionally, highlighting the need for awareness and education.
Positive reinforcement can significantly impact a child's self-esteem and development.
It's never too late to apologise and repair relationships after verbal abuse.
Raising awareness about verbal abuse is crucial for societal change.
Children's brains are highly susceptible to the effects of verbal abuse during critical development stages.
Building authentic relationships with children can help mitigate the effects of verbal abuse.
The charity aims to provide resources and training to help adults communicate positively with children.

Listen to the end for tips and advice on how we can all build children up to be the best versions of themselves.


Words Matter
https://wordsmatter.org/

NSPCC
https://www.nspcc.org.uk/

Nip in the Bud - Where to get help

https://nipinthebud.org/where-to-get-help/



Alis

Today I am in conversation with Jessica Bondi and we talk about the hugely important issue of verbal abuse against children. 

Something which affects the lives of so many of us. The latest data shows that two in five children experience verbal abuse in their lives and that this affects the way they see themselves, it affects confidence and self-esteem and subsequently can go on to alter the choices we make in our lives as adults. Jessica is the founder of Words Matter.

This is a new charity which is on a mission to end verbal abuse against children by adults. She spent over 20 years supporting some of the world's leading organisations and brands and coaching and mentoring young people to help them realise their potential. Jessica founded Words Matter as a result of her own personal lived experience, as well as that of the people she has worked with as a coach, many of whom have been so impacted by the words they had heard when growing up.

Hi, Jessica, and welcome to the Nip in the Bud podcast. Hello, and thank you so much for inviting me. I'm very excited to get started. I'm very excited to talk to you. So let's just start off with your background. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and what you currently do?

Jessica

So I have spent most of my life in communications. I was a director and then managing director of some very big communications agencies. And then I set up my own agency, I work with a whole variety of clients, everybody from British Airways to Samsung to Sky to Mars to Cadbury. And I also always coached and mentored young people to help them realize their potential, be it they were going to springboard into further education or not, or launch themselves on the job market, because so little is given for young people about how to get a job or to flourish where they were if they were struggling in a job or help them find a new one so they could flourish somewhere else. 

And then I set up my charity. I went on a course just over two years ago and we'd meet every week on a Monday morning and it was all about women finding their voice and speaking up and every week we'd be given a different topic. And this particular week, which was the fifth of the sixth week, the topic we were given was, if you are going to die in the next six months, what do want your legacy to be? So it was a day very much like today, gray, cold. And so I sat at my little desk and I made some notes. 

And then when it was my turn to stand up, I did. And I stood up, looked down the barrel of my camera, so to speak. And I said, if I'm going to die in the next six months,

I don't want my legacy being that I'm a good aunt. I have a lot of nieces and nephews. I don't have kids myself. I said, I don't want my legacy being that I'm a communication specialist, even though had a pretty good reputation in that area. And I don't want my legacy being that I coach and mentor young people to help realize their potential, even though all of those things were incredibly rewarding. As I sat at my desk, making my notes with this kind of huge question. Something came to me, almost like an epiphany. 

And I looked down the camera and I said, if I'm going to die in the next six months, I want to end verbal abuse of children by adults because words matter. And I said this because of my own lived experience and having words that adults had said to me when I was growing up, so locked in my brain to this day.

And also because so many of the hundreds and hundreds of people I'd coached and mentored and my clients of all different ages, it didn't matter whether they were in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, had all been so impacted by the words they'd heard when they were growing up and it made them question what they were capable of. And there was one girl I was coaching who was 15. He said to me, if this is what my mother thinks about me, what is the point of me being alive?

And the only weapon used against this girl was words. So having had this kind of epiphany, this eureka moment, I decided this is what I was going to spend my life now doing. And this is what I've done.

Alis

That's amazing. It's amazing journey to that point.

Jessica

I've been very, very fortunate because I was a huge success at work and I've, you know, done very well, but there are so many, so many people out there who've been told things and they are crippled by the lashings of self-loathing because of what they've been told when they were growing. What is so shocking is that this issue goes under the radar, childhood verbal abuse by adults, yet two in five children experience it.

Two in five, over 40%. And of those two in five, over half experience it weekly and one in 10 every day of their lives. And who's doing it is parents, carers, teachers, activity leaders, friends, parents, other primary sources. But there is a really long tail.

And to get those findings, we spoke to over a thousand children. And I think when we spoke to them in groups and then we did detailed surveys to get the numbers and what are called quantitative surveys, I think that what's so fascinating is there are so many different adults in children's lives that are talking to them in this way. It could be a shock keeper, it could be a... bus conductor, could be somebody they're meeting in a shop who's just slightly had, obviously had a bad day and is irritated. 

But I think that it's so kind of around us every, everywhere. You know, as I say, it's gone under the radar. It's a hidden issue, yet it can have such a profound consequence on someone's life in terms of both the immediate impact and the long-term impact. So I mean, the immediate impact is things like low self-esteem, feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness. 

But long-term, you know, all the research that we've done and in our big, big review, we did a systematic review of all the different studies and all the evidence is just so compelling. It can lead to anxiety, depression, eating disorder, substance abuse, self-harm, suicidality. So it's not only the immediate impact.

But it's the long-term impact that is so significant. Thank you, Jessica. What is your primary focus as a charity? mean, our primary focus is really to end childhood verbal abuse by adults, to improve children's mental and physical health and development. I mean, we would love a world free from verbal abuse of children by adults.

I mean, that is the ultimate vision. And our work focuses on kind of three key areas. One of which is about research to identify the scale and impact. Secondly, it's really about raising awareness and getting this issue put on the map because it's something that is so often so hidden, not discussed and really goes under the radar, particularly compared to other forms of abuse. 

And raising awareness is...all about providing information and resources and doing campaigns. then thirdly, it's about collaboration. So working with other experts and other organizations and decision makers, policymakers, and those with the lived experience to help develop and scale solutions, it training or whatever. People often ask, well, what is verbal abuse? What do you mean by verbal abuse?

And what was interesting is we've done a study which is all about getting kind of consensus of opinion and from experts and all these other people and parents themselves and teachers and practitioners and those with lived experience. And verbal abuse of children by adults is really using negative words and language to cause harm. 

And it can take many different forms. I mean, it could be blaming. insulting, belittling, intimidating, demeaning, disrespecting, scolding, criticizing, name calling, or threatening a child. And I think that what is so interesting is it's not just about shouting and screaming. It can actually be very quiet and insidious and subtle. so volume and tone and their facial expressions all play a part. And for the adults doing it, so often it's about control and power over the child. What else can it be about? Is it always about power and control from the parent's point of view? 

Or could it possibly also be about their lack of skills or lack of confidence or their own mental health. The vast majority of adults are doing it unintentionally. That's why we've set up. We are here to support and empower the adults around children. you know, so many people don't really think about the impact it may be having. And actually, when we did our research, what was so fascinating is when we started talking about it.

As soon as one asks the question, can you think about what may have happened to you when you were growing up? Can you remember any of the words that were sent to you and who said them to you? Everybody said yes. And then we were hearing so many different stories from different people, from hearing things that had really shaped who they were and what they believed they would be and had such a big profound impact on them.

 I mean, there was one guy he said, 'I can see what you mean. two sisters both suffer from eating disorders and they were told by my father when they were in their teens that they had fat legs or a big bum and they developed, you know, an eating disorder, anorexia and still have it to this day in their fifties.' 

Then you've got other people that have this kind of vision of themselves, belief in themselves, I'm never going to be able to, I'm useless at maths. But that them believing they were useless at maths came from a teacher really early on, or I can't spell, or you're messy. 

And I think what was so interesting is when we asked children what were the most hurtful words, these words - the top five of them were actually used in everyday language. 

You're useless. You're stupid. You can't get anything right. You're worthless. I'm ashamed of you. And we can all remember hearing those sorts of words growing up from people. 

And this is what's so sad is it? The effect on children they tell us is it makes them feel sad, anxious, depressed, doubting themselves, ashamed, embarrassed, lonely, isolated and frightened. 

And the contrast is when we asked kids what were the helpful words, it really highlights the power of positive reinforcement. And the most helpful words were, I'm proud of you, I'm here for you, I believe in you, you can do it, it's okay to make mistakes, you can learn from them.

And this fills children with confidence and self-belief and happiness and all those things. We say the whole kind of simplest way of boiling down what we're doing at Words Matter is let's build children up, not knock them down on.

If we can respect children, they can not only respect themselves, but they can respect the others around them.

Alis

Absolutely. So, how do you think verbal abuse can change a child's developing brain? So I'm just thinking from an education point of view, we're very aware as teachers that brains are very supple and plastic and they're always developing. Our role is to give children the opportunity to feed that curiosity and grow and develop. What's the downside of that? you're, if you're suffering from verbal abuse at that crucial time when you're really developing, what do you think the lasting damage can be on the brain?

Jessica

I think what's so interesting is, you know, brains, when we're born, they're about 40 % formed. And the early years is such a critical stage. Those first five years of life are so important for the child's developing brain. And then another critical point is in your teenage years.

And I think that for the kind of final end stage of brain development, then last until the early twenties. Children's brains are built, the foundations are built as a result of the relationships they surround themselves with. And they need warm and encouraging words and safe and secure relationships and environments in order to build the best foundations. 

And it's rather like a building. You need strong foundations to be robust and to last and to thrive. And this is why language and how we speak to children is so critical. And I think what's been so interesting is if one looks at the research and some fascinating studies who examine children's brains and look at MRI scans can see the actual impact on imagery on those MRIs of what verbal abuse and how it changes the brain and the impact it has. it's, it's striking and it's stark.

 And actually what's a, what a lot of people don't realise you know, we did a huge big study and a lot of the experts will say is that verbal abuse of children, the use of that language to blame, criticise, belittle, can be just as damaging as physical and sexual abuse. 

And I've spoken to experts who said, in fact, the impact can be longer lasting because it's so often more continuous when it's going on and one of the most extraordinary studies I read about, and I have read a lot of papers, as you'd imagine, and then obviously our researchers have read thousands of papers, but one of the studies talked about the fact that verbal abuse of children by adults can lead to the same level of trauma as soldiers who returned from the Iraq war with post-traumatic stress syndrome.

So the same level of trauma as soldiers who returned from the Iraq war. And this is why I am so passionate about focusing on this issue and really making people, encouraging people to take it seriously. 

And we are the first organisation in the world to focus solely on addressing childhood verbal abuse by adults and the fact that I can write to leading experts at Harvard or in these amazing institutions around the world telling them what I'm planning. 

When I was setting up the charity and they would come back to me within one or two hours, shows the level of interest in this area. I've garnered a huge, we've garnered a huge amount of support from all sorts of different people.

A number of the leading charities are supporting our mission. So they too can recognise that it's so important that childhood verbal abuse is eradicated so that all children can thrive.

Alis

It's shocking that the data that you're giving us, the understanding of the damage to the brain, the link to or the comparison to PTSD is really shocking.

So, you know, it's fantastic the work that you're doing and raising people's awareness. I'm just thinking now about our audience. We have parents, we have teachers, carers listening. And I'm aware that as adults, we're fallible. There's times we become overwhelmed or irritated or tired and we say the wrong thing. We say something hurtful to a child. Would you say it's too late then?

Would you say...the damage is done?

Jessica

And I think that all adults, we all get overloaded. We can all say things we don't mean to. And our message is it's never too late to put things right. Never too late. You can break the cycle. And the first thing you can do if you've said something is to apologise. Say sorry. 

And you know, show you mean it and explain why and what may have happened and why you may have said what you said. An apology is a start. once you've ruptured, always repair, always repair. And I think the other thing is a lot of adults have been spoken to in that way themselves. They've been verbally abused by people in their lives when they were growing up. But it is possible to break the cycle. When one's getting into those tense moments,

We have four things that we say that people should try and do. One of them is to stop, take a step back, breathe, think, and then speak. know, part of our research, we talk to parents, carers, and other adults around children. And it's never a win-win because adults never feel good.

In the aftermath of when they've said something, the vast majority, I mean, I think it's so fascinating. know, over two thirds said they felt guilty. Over two thirds wish they could have put back the clock. And the same felt bad about what they'd said. There is no win-win for anybody.

Alis

For adults to own when they've made a mistake, said something they wish they hadn't, to apologise and to talk it through.

Jessica

Yes. And as I've said, an apology is a start. It's a start.

Alis

Stop, breathe, think and speak. I really like that. It's clear. I won't use the word simple because I know when people are feeling heightened, it's not the simplest thing in the world to stop. You're running on adrenaline or emotion and the stop can be the hardest thing, but it's really clear to just stop, breathe, think and then speak.

It is a really lovely message to keep giving and it's practice.

Jessica 

I think the other thing is we have, as well as obviously repair, we have kind of five practical tips and repair is one of those, the apology, but the others are be a good role model. We are all role models for our children. Role modeling is so important because if we want them to behave or act in a certain way, we've got to role model it ourselves.

I think the next thing is about setting expectations. And I think what's hard is when you're an adult, so oftentimes you want the child to be how you are, but they're a certain age and stage. So setting expectations that are right for the age and stage that they're at, they just may not be able to be in this way.

And I've had so many conversations also, I had conversations with people recently who got children who were neurodiverse and their brain's function is different. So one's got to set realistic expectations. It's so important to focus on the positives and what is good, which is why we say let's build children up, not knock them down.

What are they doing well before you get to what they're doing badly? And I think what is so painful often is that children are labelled rather than the behaviour being labelled. So you're lazy, you're stupid, you're useless. It's like almost being branded with those words.

Focus on the positives. know, everybody wants to be seen and heard for who they are and let's celebrate everybody's specialness.

Alis

Absolutely. As a head, I used to encourage my team to really get to know the child as an individual. And I think that goes very much with what you're saying there, because when you know a child as an individual, you know what you can praise them for. You know what they're good at. You find those things that are going to encourage them and make them feel good about themselves. So think it is about making time to build those authentic relationships. whether you're a carer or an educationist and really know the child so that those kind, affirming words are authentic and do actually bring something to the child. It's not something you just say to all children. 

They recognise that you see them. I really like the way that you keep saying people want to be seen and heard for who they are. And I think that's key.

You've mentioned a few times that you're about raising awareness. What are you doing specifically as a charity to raise awareness?

Jessica 

We've done some pretty groundbreaking research work, which we share. So our first big campaign was really trying to highlight the two in five and what were the most hurtful and helpful words. We then did another big piece of research, which was covered in a very significant leading journal called Child Abuse and Neglect, which was a review of thousands of studies on this particular issue. It was the first time it had been done. 

And what was interesting about that is that the conclusion from the leading academics that led the study was that we need to make childhood verbal abuse by adults its own maltreatment subtype. There are four at the moment, physical abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse. and neglect, childhood verbal abuse is part of emotional abuse. 

And if what's so interesting is while one looks at the kind of statistics and the epidemiology, the epidemiological figures, while physical abuse and sexual abuse of children have gone down because of very targeted interventions and awareness campaigns, emotional abuse is now one of the biggest forms and that is largely childhood verbal abuse. But if we can actually call it childhood verbal abuse, it means by adults, means attention will go on the people doing it. When we talk about emotional abuse, it tends to be more victim centric. 

Part of our awareness campaigns are speaking to people like yourself. We've done various, have lots of opportunities and journalists have spoken to us and media.

And we have ongoing campaigns and initiatives focused around specific issues. But at the heart of what we're trying to do is raise awareness and educate people. And when we analyzed all the data from the experts and the parents and carers and teachers and children and practitioners was the two things they felt would help address this issue were awareness and education.

Providing more information about this, training people about it. And we've piloted a training program, which is being evaluated by UCL, which we hope to roll out widely because as many people know, there is no manual for bringing up a child and people need tips and advice. People need to know that their words can have such a profound impact and that words matter.

Alis

Absolutely. And I think training is key in raising awareness. As an education professional, what advice would you give them if they recognised a child in their class might be a victim of verbal abuse and they thought that it might be coming from home? What would you suggest would be the next step?

Jessica

I mean, I think it's interesting to know what are the signs and the kind of signs.

There are experts have said it's people that become withdrawn, anxious, lacking in confidence, often tummy aches and aches and pains. I mean, one of the people we spoke to and several have said, the daughter was complaining about aches and pains and didn't really want to go into school. And actually it was an adult at the school who was talking to her in this way that was not wanting her to be part of it.

Sometimes it means, you know, you can see if a child physically shrinks, if there's somebody speaking loudly or they may also be using language which you think, gosh, that's a bit shocking that language from somebody of that particular age because, but they've obviously heard it from somebody else, but also they can be sort of overly clingy because looking for that reassurance or as we talked about before, one of the impacts is the long-term impacts as well as anxiety, depression. 

Eating disorders is another one. And if eating habits change, you know, for older children, substance abuse, self-harm. So it causes a lot of different things, but in terms of what teachers or people can do about it, it's really listening to the child and finding out what the child's thoughts are, what their feelings are.

And if you're seeing it, it's talking, if you're in a school, it's best to talk to the safeguarding lead. And if you're a parent and you think it might be going on in your child's school, again, go to the safeguarding lead at the school. They all have them. And another really good place to go is the NSPCC.

a child's wide phone child line or, you know, text child line. And there's another really excellent service called Shout 85258 where you can just text 85258 and there's 24 seven. It's a free service. It's all on text. So things can be done. Yeah.

Alis

Thank you. We'll make sure everything you've mentioned there is in the show notes. So it's easy enough to get to, but that's, that's really helpful.

And I think you've hit the nail on the head, it's knowing what to look for. So recognising those changes and it goes back to good relationships with the children that you're working with or authentic relationships with your own children.

Noticing when there are those changes, which might actually be really subtle changes, but then actually giving them the support that they need to build them up.

Jessica

Very subtle changes. mean, there was a, there was a, one of the many people I've spoken to was saying how her daughter was having this tummy ache and she couldn't understand it. And the daughter, it transpired when she had a conversation with her, know, and often at nighttime as they're going to bed, it's quite a good time to have those sorts of conversations. 

It transpired that she was doing well and she felt overly pressured by the teacher, whatever the teacher was saying, she felt overly pressured. She had been doing well, but it was being singled out.

And another child who didn't really want to go to school had been for whatever reason terribly, terribly picked on by a teacher and sort of shamed in front of her class. Probably if we had the conversation with the teacher, they would be really shocked and they may not be conscious that they've even said things that can be so deeply wounding to a child.

Alis

Is there anything that you feel we haven't covered in our conversation that you'd want our listeners to hear?

Jessica

What I want listeners to take away is words matter, particularly for children. We say words matter, they stick, they last a lifetime. Their impact shapes who we are and who we become. And we can all remember things said to us when we were young.

Those things that built us up or knocked us down. So let's build children up. Let's not knock them down. Let's respect children so they can respect themselves and others around them.

Alis

 Thank you for our conversations, today. Thank you so much for the charity that you've created. I think it's vitally important and I hope that your message gets to as many people as possible, parents, carers and as working in schools because it will make such a difference. 

So thank you for your time today, Jessica. 

Well, if people want to know more information or join our mission to end verbal abuse of children, please go to www.wordsmatter.org and get in touch. We'd love your support. And if you're interested in taking part in any training or anything, also get in touch.

We've got lots of resources. We've got all our research there. You can see who all our experts are and it's an amazing resource that people are fascinated by.

Alis

That's brilliant. Thank you. And we'll put your web address in the show notes as well so we can get to you nice and easily. So thank you again. 


I hope you enjoyed today's conversation and are able to take something interesting and positive away from it. Our podcasts are sensitively produced and give evidence-based information, whether from academic research and experts in their fields or from lived experiences. They are created to help others spot early signs of distress and may require further monitoring and information on how to follow up and get help.

Learning about child mental health and understanding how to recognise potential disorders is an important first step for everyone caring for children and young people. Please visit our website nipinthebud.org and go to our Where to Get Help page for organisations which can provide both support and further information to help you and those you care for. Any specific links that we've spoken about today can be found in the show notes.

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