Nip in the Bud® Podcast - The children's mental health health charity

Nip in the Bud with Vanessa Longley: Empowering Children and the Role of Early Intervention

• Nip in the Bud Children's Mental Charity

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In this episode of the Nip in the Bud podcast, Alis Rocca speaks with Vanessa Longley, the Chief Executive of Chance UK, about the critical importance of early intervention in children's mental health. They discuss the challenges faced by vulnerable children, the significance of amplifying young voices, and the need for genuine relationships between adults and children. Vanessa shares insights on mentoring, the impact of exclusion and suspension, and the necessity of empathy in education. The conversation emphasizes the importance of resilience, understanding behavior, and the role of labels in shaping identity, ultimately advocating for a supportive environment for all children.

Takeaways:

Early intervention can prevent mental health crises in children.
Listening to children helps us understand their needs better.
Building genuine relationships with children is crucial for their development.
Teachers should approach misbehavior with curiosity and empathy.
Parents should model emotional awareness for their children.
Mentoring provides children with trusted adults to support them.
It's important to seek help early when concerns arise about a child's behavior.
The mental health crisis among children is exacerbated by societal pressures.
Resilience can be taught through real-life experiences and modeling.
Creating safe spaces at home fosters open communication with children.

Keywords:

mental health, children, early intervention, education, parenting, Chance UK, resilience, support, mentoring, identity


Chance UK

https://www.chanceuk.com/exclusions-2/

Nip in the Bud - Where to get help

https://nipinthebud.org/where-to-get-help/



Alis Rocca (01:56)

So welcome, Vanessa, welcome to the Nip in the Bud podcast. Thank you for your time today.


Vanessa Longley (02:02)

Lovely to be here.


Alis Rocca (02:04)

Can you start off just by telling us a little bit about you? Tell us about what you currently do and what has led you to this role.


Vanessa Longley (02:12)

Yeah, so right now I'm the chief exec of Chance UK, which is a charity working with children, some of the most vulnerable children in London. But I've spent the last 20 something years, probably longer than that now, in health, mental health, and especially in children's charities. So really looking and trying to find what works.


because I suppose I came into the charity sector believing there must be something we can do to support children and young people to be well and to flourish. So yeah, that's what I do. I find out what works and we do more of it.


Alis Rocca (02:52)

led you to that? Why did you feel there was more that we could do?


Vanessa Longley (02:56)

I grew up in a family where, I mean, don't ask us, my family, don't ask us to change a tire or do plumbing. We're totally useless when it comes to that, but my family, we come from teachers, social workers, psychiatric nurses. And that's where I started. I started in a care home for people with multiple and profound difficulties. And I realized really quite fast that although


I wanted to help, but this wasn't what I was best at. So yeah, I do personal care, volunteer and do personal care, but it's not what my skillset is. And one of the things that I realized I seemed to be pretty good at was bringing together a team of people who could help challenge some of the standard status quo. Back then, I remember when I worked in a care home, it was...


there was there wasn't abuse happening in my care home, should say this straight away, but at the time the law was that someone with a learning disability couldn't withdraw consent for abuse to happen and therefore it wasn't a crime. And I know that sounds like a terrible, terrible situation, but it's a demonstration of the change that we've had in this world. And I was part of the team at Mencap that helped change the law around consent.


And that's what I do. So I like to run at the big picture and make some of those big changes that can impact children across the country for the better.


Alis Rocca (04:22)

I'm dizzy.


Thank you. Thank you for that. I love that phrase. I like to run at the big picture and look at that overarching situation and do something about it. But you also do look at the granular detail as well. tell us a bit more about Chance UK. What is the vision at Chance UK and what changes or impact are you hoping to make there?


Vanessa Longley (04:45)

Yeah.


mean, Chance is a fascinating charity because we're the stuff that a lot of organizations are backed away from. And it's particularly around recognizing that the earlier you start supporting a child, the more difference that you can make. Because the reality is we are facing a mental health crisis. Our children and young people are struggling more than they ever have before.


And that doesn't matter about changes in definitions, that this is real individual struggle that they're having. And what we know at Childs UK is that if you intervene early and if you give children the right support at the earliest point of need, then the struggles that they have never escalate into a crisis. So all of the really difficult situations that some of our children are facing can be avoided.


That doesn't mean you can get rid of a diagnosis. So, you know, we have children who can and will be diagnosed with all sorts of different conditions, but you can live comfortably, happily and flourish with whatever label you're given. So there is a difference between having a label and being in crisis. And what we're looking at at Chance UK is how to support children to flourish in the world that they're in.


Alis Rocca (06:11)

And that really aligns to everything we believe in at Nip in the Bud, which led to the name Nip in the Bud, which is, you know, the earlier that you recognise any concerns, any issues, and the quicker you respond to that, the better the outcomes, the better the life chances for the child. On your website, you mentioned that you're passionate about amplifying the voices of young people and putting their experiences at the heart of everything.


Vanessa Longley (06:18)

Yeah.


Alis Rocca (06:39)

Why do you think this is crucial? Why do you think this is a big part of that recognising early?


Vanessa Longley (06:44)

It's really interesting. It's one of the things, so I was at Young Minds for a number of years and one of the things we realised really rapidly talking to young people about their experiences around managing their mental health is about how their use of language changes, whether they're feeling well or whether they're feeling ill. And one of the things that they found incredibly frustrating is that adults tend to carry on using the same language, the language of wellness.


and therefore we'd be asking them, are you feeling depressed? remember a 16 year old saying to me, well, if I wasn't feeling depressed, then yes, I could say I was feeling depressed, but I'm feeling depressed. So instead, I'm not gonna say I'm feeling depressed, I'm gonna say I hate myself. And there's something around.


When we stop listening as adults and start really genuinely connecting with children and young people, asking them how they feel and helping them with language that they can use to describe those feelings, we're much more able to meet their needs. So at Chance UK, we're working with children from as young as five all the way up to 14. And many of those children, they don't yet have the language for the emotions that they're feeling. We talk about big emotions.


Because that's as far as I can get. Sometimes it's a big emotion. I can't contain it. But they don't have a name for it. And if they don't have a name, they can't tell us. And if they can't tell us, we can't provide the solution. So instead, we try and fix what we see. And what we see is behavior. And we lose that connection back, that behavior is actually different ways to communicate as a child. So listening and including children in everything you do from the very earliest stuff that you do with them.


means that you design programs and support that works for the child. So rather than trying to retrofit children into an adult world. And actually, and here's the thing. So I have, my daughter is now 20, but she lives with a disability. And I remember speaking to her consultant up at the Evelina. So we've managed to get up to this very, very important hospital and we're talking with this professor and I have my little girl sitting on my lap.


I'm desperately trying to understand what he's saying. And then he just very quietly said to me, he said, why is it we always think of children as mini adults? We would never assume that when we're giving medication. We can't treat children as mini adults with medication because they react differently. And it's no different with their emotions as well. They are not mini adults yet. There are lots of things that affect them differently. So yeah, there's something really important here about putting the child


Alis Rocca (09:22)

Hmm.


Vanessa Longley (09:29)

part of every intervention you plan.


Alis Rocca (09:33)

And when you put them at the heart of the intervention and you talked about that genuine connection, does that mean there needs to be a level of flexibility with regards to that intervention? Because I'm just thinking if you've started from the point of seeing behaviours, which is them communicating there is something wrong, you might as an adult, as a professional, start putting into place certain things that you think will help.


But the closer you get to the child, the more genuine the relationship you have with the child, the more you find out, like you've just said. Does that mean that change, that you need to have this sort of adaptability with the way that you work with children?


Vanessa Longley (10:08)

Yeah.


Yeah, it's the gift that we have at Childs UK. So we will often work with a child for up to a year on a one-to-one basis, meeting the child every week. And over time, we are able to support that child to develop an understanding of themselves and to understand how to ask for the help that they need. But you're absolutely right. That first stage is us trying to really understand what they're trying to tell us. And that might involve a whole range of things that they've never mentioned before.


I'm thinking of the girl that we supported. was 12, just at secondary school. And she was about to get expelled from school, excluded, because she persistently failed to wear the right shoes to school. And whenever the teachers picked her up on it, she got lippy and answered back and swore at them. And so they put her into detention. She would never go to detention.


and it always escalating and escalating and escalating. They're saying, look, we've given her all the chances, we've told her she has to wear the right school uniform, we've told her not to pull on her back. It took us three weeks of working with her to find out that actually what happened is that there's not enough money at home. So mum has taken on some extra shift work, which means that firstly, she has to get her little brother up and get him to school, which means she can't get to school on time.


Doesn't matter how hard she tries on those days she cannot physically get to school on time. And the second thing is her mum on the day she, her mum's working, her mum wears the shoes. They only have one pair of shoes between them. So she was wearing her trainers to school. And so when we went and spoke to the school about that and the school said, well, why didn't she tell us? I went, she's 12. She is absolutely terrified of people finding out there's not enough money at home because she doesn't know what might happen. And she's embarrassed.


and she doesn't want to share and she doesn't have the language. And it's such a good example of how the interventions from the school's perspective, this was a child who was refusing to comply and being lippy. And actually what this was, was a child in real desperate need. And that entire problem, all of those behaviors were solved with one 30 pound pair of shoes.


Alis Rocca (12:28)

Wow. So just keeping with that anecdote, which is really good, just makes it so clear. What nuggets of advice would you give to schools with regards to finding out, having those relationships with kids? What can schools do that you did in three weeks? What could schools do? What would you have liked to have seen that school do?


Vanessa Longley (12:55)

I always say to teachers, we ask so much of you as a society. mean, there is no teacher goes into that profession because they want to exclude kids or do anything other than be an incredibly glorious environment for a child to flourish. So what we do say is you can guess that if there is a child in the classroom who is misbehaving.


almost certainly they are struggling with something. I'm not saying there mustn't be any boundaries. We all need boundaries. In fact, the more boundaries you have, the safer you can feel. But they're struggling with something. And this is time to start getting your puzzle solving and your curiosity out. And if the start point, rather than saying you have done wrong, if the first question is, what's wrong? What's going on?


Alis Rocca (13:51)

and


Vanessa Longley (13:52)

What's happening for you in this moment? I can see you're feeling something, but I don't know what it is because I'm not a mind reader. Tell me what it is. And that starts to give you the information and an insight that you might need in order to be able to start saying, actually, this is easily fixable. It may well be easily fixable. We have children going into school who are hungry. That's not uncommon, sadly, nowadays. And


those frustrations can come out in the classroom and it may be a little while before they're willing to open up but there has to be space to do that and what I would say is that if you are if the first act is to send the child away from their peer group, from you, sitting on their own, that is not a safe space for them to start learning and reflecting on the impact of their actions because you're asking them to do reflection on


emotions that they haven't yet named. So take them on that journey with you is what I would always say. You may not be able to do it in the moment because it may not be appropriate or safe to do so but absolutely start by saying where are you now? What do you think would help?


Alis Rocca (15:08)

That's really, again, real clarity there. And I think things that are actionable that educators could put in place immediately. can imagine, I'm just thinking back to me being ahead, I can imagine my staff saying, but we haven't got time. We haven't got time for those long conversations. We haven't got time to become best friends with everybody. But actually, what I always used to say is you have, because ultimately, this is going to eat away at your time anyway.


you know, this child whose needs are not being met and whose behaviors begin to escalate, that's going to take time. You know, they're going to insist on the time. And it might be that initially you think, well, they're just going to go into detention and I can get on with my marking. But you might be dealing with that for over a year rather than what you just said there, was three weeks.


So moving away from the idea of advice for educators, what about if we go back to that same story, what advice would you give to parents who might be in a similar situation where things have happened, things have got tough at home? If that little girl had a different response from her mum, that might not have happened. She might not have had to have...


borne all of that on her own shoulders. So what advice would you give to parents in similar situations?


Vanessa Longley (16:30)

I this is, and this is stuff that I had to learn myself when I was, I was raising a child with disability, which is, it's really easy to forget when you're, when your child's still quite young, they have this magical thinking, which can be wonderful. It's why they are able to play mermaids or fairies or, or combats in the garden. You know, it's all, it's that glorious side, but there is a flip side, which is children.


are trained from an evolutionary perspective to pick up on every emotion around them. It's why they survive so well. then fed through that magical thinking, they often misinterpret what they are sensing from around them. And what can happen and often does happen is they may see things, they may half hear things, they may sense the emotion that their parents, their carers, their siblings are feeling, and they are going to


think it's their fault or they're going to think it's their responsibility. I mean, we totally get it wrong as adults. We always think that we've got these kids that don't care, but we care desperately. biggest issue during COVID amongst young people were they were terrified their parents were going to die, not them. And what we would find in that sort of situation that would be incredibly common is it would be the girl protecting her mum from the disapproval of the school.


That's what she's trying to do. And there is an easy way around it, which is we need parents to model and explain their feelings. So when you get home from work or when you get in from a day out, if you've had a bad day and you notice that you're slamming the food down on the counter or you're a bit short, what you do is you sit down and you go, you know what?


I feel really fed up. I've got no reason to do so, but I just feel fed up. I've had a day like that and I'm going to sit here for a moment and be fed up and I'm going to think about what might help. I know what might help a really big cuddle or a cup of tea or what you're modeling then for your child is first of all, you are yourself aware, you're recognizing the emotion that you're feeling. You're making it really, really clear to your child that it's not their fault.


because almost certainly they will feel it is and then you start having behaviors as a result. And then even better, you are modeling for them how we handle big emotions, which is we're kind to ourselves. So yeah, if you're a parent of them and I think the other thing is judgment. I don't know, you were a teacher as, but do you ever remember being the parent in the playground waiting to pick up your child?


my word, it's the judgment in that playground where you're standing there and all the kids come out and then you notice the school teacher walking towards you, you think uh-oh, just me too, me too, yeah, yeah, it was always Vanessa just want a quick word, so here's the thing.


Alis Rocca (19:18)

Yeah, absolutely.


Yeah, I was that person as well. I remember that.


I remember a


year two teacher almost every day should say, Mrs. Rocker, your son's been a bit of a pickle. It was always a bit of a pickle. I'm like, okay, right, here we go.


Vanessa Longley (19:49)

Cool, cool, yeah, yeah,


yeah. So here's what I want to say to every parent out there, which is this, do not feel judged. There are people out there, there are organizations out there that are willing, ready and waiting to help you. You are not the only one who's been in this situation. Even if your school tells you that you have, and I'm sure, you know, as I say, most schools are brilliant.


There are a few schools out there that are still turning around and pointing the finger. It doesn't matter if you've been on a parenting course. Of course, we're going to, you know, there will be people wanting you to go on a parenting course in case that's something that might help. But that is not a judgment on you and it's not a judgment on your child. So the quicker you ask for help, the better. And I have never yet come across a parent who wasn't able to say at a really early stage, something's wrong.


And if you're at that stage, something's wrong, I don't know what it is, but something's wrong. That's the point where you start putting your hand up and saying, can we group around the child here because something's wrong. And yeah, I know it's hard. I know it's hard and I know we all feel like failures because I don't know about you, my daughter is the most magical, glorious thing on this planet. And how could I ever be a good enough mum?


Alis Rocca (20:58)

Yeah.


Vanessa Longley (21:16)

to raise something as wonderful as that. That's why we all feel judged because our children are glorious. We love them. but it's not you doing a bad job if you're asking for help. It's you doing a good job. And yeah, sometimes your kid's going to need you to ask on their behalf.


Alis Rocca (21:20)

Yeah.


Vanessa Longley (21:35)

And if there are people out there now, we have guidance on our website at chanceuk.com. So come and have a look if that's useful. If it's useful for you, then we'd we'd like to


Alis Rocca (21:45)

So thank you.


I think some really good advice for both educationists and parents there. I think for me, pulling all of that advice together is communication. Just keep the communication lines open, parents and schools and children and building those authentic relationships so that you can do that without fear of judgment. Let's move on. Mentoring. Tell me...


Vanessa Longley (22:06)

Absolutely.


Okay. Yeah.


Alis Rocca (22:13)

Tell me about mentoring. Why do you use this approach? What does it mean? What's the difference between this and therapy?


Vanessa Longley (22:20)

It's a really, really interesting mentoring is, it's got a million definitions across the country. So what we do is we talk about giving a child a trusted adult to walk alongside them. So most of the experiences that a child has, if you think of a sort of an eight, nine year old, the vast majority of their life is done to them. There's very, very little choice that child has in their life.


And that's equally true about therapy. And it's a really interesting thing. It's something actually that the, it was a 10 year old who was telling me and I said, what's great about mentoring to them. And she went, oh, well, I can actually talk to my mentor, which is so much easier to talk to my mentor than talk to my therapist. And I was like, sorry, hang on. That's not how it's supposed to work. Why is that? And she well, you know, I have to go to therapy. Whereas with my mentor, I can choose whether I do mentoring or not. And there was this sudden realization that I


an adult, that of course the therapeutic relationship that we as adults have with our therapists is rooted in us knowing that this is a hard thing to do but we go because it's important. It's rooted in us having choice. But there isn't a child on the planet that chooses therapy. They are put into therapy. So the thing about mentoring is we will sit down with a child who's been referred to us.


Alis Rocca (23:30)

Yeah.


Vanessa Longley (23:46)

And we'll say, look, this is what mentoring is like. You get a budget, money to spend, you can either spend it every week with us, or you can save it up and we can do something special together. And then we go and do that activity together. And it's built around finding out the child's interests, finding out their goals and aspirations and working towards those. So it's entirely positively based and working towards something that they


they aspire to. whether that's, we had a girl who hadn't left her house for eight months after COVID. And her goal was, school referred to her and said, you know, we want to get her back to school. But that wasn't her goal. Her goal was she'd run out of really good books to read. And in an effort to try and get her out of the house, her parent had said, no, I'm not going to bring you books anymore. You've got to go and get them yourself.


And so the library was at the end of the road and that was her goal. And over time you worked with her, we'd been first standing out in the front of the garden with all of these things, all of these stages that you were able to do over time, working alongside and building trust with your mentor. And this walking alongside is a really key thing. We know that children who have got a trusted adult in their lives can make huge leaps in terms of their emotional and social development. And


teachers as brilliant as they are, that they can be a trusted adult but we know the time pressure that's on them nowadays and it can be a real challenge to provide that one-to-one relationship that a disabled person can provide.


Alis Rocca (25:29)

Thank you. When do you step in to offer this support? You just said this particular girl had not left the house for eight months. Do you get to that point of crisis before you are involved or does it differ?


Vanessa Longley (25:39)

Yeah.


Yeah, so


we get referrals from a whole range of places. So around about 50 % of our referrals now come from CAMHS, the Children and Adolescent Mental Health Service, from social care, from education and directly from parents. And I suppose it's one of the things that makes us as a charity unique because most charities, none of us can help everyone. And so most charities focus on those children at greatest need. So they'll take those in crisis and try and hold them.


But the problem of that is you are only ever trying to put a stinging plaster on something that's already in crisis and there are better organisations to deal with crisis than us. Mentoring, what we do is about early intervention. So we are interested in those at the earliest point of need. Now that could mean children that are just having a little tiny bit of a struggle and we might spend, we might invite them into a group. So for example, we have, we ran a group.


for girls where they start talking about consent in a very child-friendly way, whether that's with in a relationship setting or whether it's with your friends. How do you say yes and how do you say no as a girl? And we've got a couple of girls in that group who literally they'll come along for a few weeks and that's it, that's all they need. But the earliest point of need can also be


a crisis. can be we had a lad who's very sadly his menchera died. So he went from having a perfectly ordinary life and doing very well to being really in quite high need. So yeah, we would support him because that's the earliest point we could have got to him. So that's the ideal. But the whole point is we don't judge because 99 times out of 100, whatever the reason that's given for the referral, whether it's social care or PAMS or


Alis Rocca (27:28)

Mm. Mm.


Vanessa Longley (27:41)

or education telling us what the problem is. Now, shall I times out 100? That's not the solution. That's the problem. What we're looking for is whatever the problem is, there will always be something that will help this child make it. Hope with the situation or make it a little better or get them to where they are looking to go. And that's what we do.


Alis Rocca (27:48)

Hmm.


So you might have a different answer for teachers and parents here, but at what point should they look to you for this support? You've said that they can come to your website and parents or professionals can refer. But what would you say would be the signs? What would you be looking for to know that now's the time to ask for help?


Vanessa Longley (28:13)

Yeah.


So I first went to my GP with my daughter when she was two and a half. And I said, this is my first baby. And I don't know, but there's something that doesn't feel right here. And I couldn't even have put words to it entirely. was just, it was a feeling. And was I comparing her with other children? Probably. But was there something at a deeper level? There was just something which didn't ring right to me.


It took us until she was seven before she was diagnosed and a lot of that was because her disability is invisible and so there has to be something quite seriously wrong if they'll start testing for it. What I would say to the parents out there is if you are worried, if you are thinking there's something wrong, then there almost certainly is. That may not be a diagnosis. What it is is your child beginning to struggle.


And why do we need a label? Why do we need to wait until they get worse in order to start offering a solution? Because, for example, if you've got a child who is going to end up with a diagnosis of autism, at the moment, you are going to be waiting three to four years to get that diagnosis. And are we saying that we should just wait for that? So I'm saying as a parent, it's OK to ask for help. It may not be that you need us. It might be that they need


Alis Rocca (29:34)

Absolutely.


Vanessa Longley (29:56)

They need a friend to talk to. It may be that a quick conversation with a teacher saying they seem to be bit anxious coming to school. There may be a really simple fix for what it is that's troubling that child. But if you have a concern, start there and start now. I'm sorry, I'm cluttering my fingers. That's not good for a podcast, it? But if you're a teacher and you are seeing something in the classroom, it's almost your start point is...


This is the child trying to tell me something and this may be, this is something that's so difficult to say, they don't yet have the words for it. They're having to act it out. Literally, they are acting it out. If that's your start point, ask for help then if you're not sure. You are going to be surrounded by extraordinary colleagues. It's probably almost impossible that they won't have come across this before. And if they can't help, there are loads of us out


There's Chance UK, but there's loads of charities out there that are ready and able and willing to give support. And on the mental health side, which I know Nip and the Bud is, is, you know, I'll do a little bit of a push for the parents help line for Young Mind's parents help line. It's a line I used. And the biggest thing they did for me was they told me that I was doing everything right. And that's all I needed at the time. It was a hard time and I was so worried.


Alis Rocca (31:07)

Hmm.


Yeah.


Vanessa Longley (31:22)

And they said, just hold on, keep going. You're doing everything right. And sometimes that is enough for a parent to hear that validation that this tricky time will pass. You just hold them. You hold on to the kid. You love them like you've never loved them before. And they will get to the other side.


Alis Rocca (31:25)

Mmm.


Thank you. Thank you for that. Earlier, you mentioned a mental health crisis. Can we talk a little bit about that? What made you say that? What do you mean by it? We are hearing this phrase a lot in the news and in schools. What does it mean to you?


Vanessa Longley (32:03)

It feels like I've been saying it for a long time now and I think that's it's really hard to still be saying that our children are facing a mental health crisis. What I mean by that is that we are facing unprecedented numbers of children reaching mental health crisis. I'm not talking about children who


are experiencing low level anxiety around exam season. We're talking about children who require expert help and support. So on average at the moment we've got about six kids in every classroom, in every school across the entire nation with a diagnosable mental health problem, let alone the others who may struggle with reactive issues around family struggles or such things. mean, this is an absolute crisis. And if you track it back,


It's not a surprise if you listen to young people and say, why, what's the difference between now and different eras? You know, they can list it for us. They can tell us what the problems are. You know, they genuinely believe that there isn't a future for them. They believe their planet is burning and they will never have a hope of the future. They are inundated. They are never allowed to switch off.


It's not social media itself or the internet itself which is damaging, it's this constant always on culture, the phone constantly pinging. If they're getting bullied at school, they can't leave it at school, it follows them home. If there's problems at home, they come straight up and at school and all the time, all of the worst atrocities from the news are appearing on the phones in their pocket alongside all of the other things, the cost of living crisis, systemic racism, all of this stuff.


is feeling and weighing our children down in a way that perhaps it didn't in the past. And if you talk to young, even very young children, they are actively worried about these issues. They are worried about their parents not having enough money to eat. As I say, I tell the story of the lad who got, again, got excluded for stealing an apple from school. And the only reason he got caught was because he didn't eat it.


because there's not enough money at home to feed everyone and he's worried about his mum and his seven. So when people say what's wrong with our kids, there is nothing wrong with our children. What's wrong is the environment we are asking them to grow up in. They are taking on responsibilities that they are not yet fully developed to take on. You we saw by the end of the first lockdown after COVID, we saw an 80 % increase.


in children arriving at A &E with eating disorders. And it's doubled again since then. These are really, really scary figures. But, and I always put the but in because it doesn't matter what condition you are diagnosed with, that doesn't automatically mean you're going to reach crisis. And that's the bit that I'm wanting us as a society to start engaging with.


Alis Rocca (35:00)

Mm.


Vanessa Longley (35:18)

there is a difference between having a diagnosis, which may be depression, anxiety, autism, a special educational need of disability. can be psychosis. There are a million different definitions, but that definition does not define that child. It can be really useful, really, really useful to have a diagnosis, but it doesn't define the life that child's going to face. What we need to focus on is that individual child.


and say what works for you let's find the different things that supports you now before you reach crisis so that even if you have a lack of hope which is what I see a lot in kids they arrive to me age five six seven saying I've messed up my life and I'm always thinking you haven't even started it yet but if you're feeling that I need to convince you I need to show them that life can get better


Because once they go through that one learning loop of things being tricky, but then getting better, then they have the belief forevermore that things can improve. So that's what I would, that's what a whole model is defined around. And what I'd encourage parents and teachers out there, it's the message that we need to hammer home, which is if things feel really dark now, I promise you, I promise you things can get better.


And whilst you can't believe that yourself, I want you to hold on to my belief. Because I've seen it. I've seen it happen. I've been there. And it's okay we can get you there.


Alis Rocca (36:52)

you've got this belief, you've got this message that you want to give to children and this sense of hope, but would you be able to single out a few skills that you would want to see adults teaching to children?


that would help them to move through a dark period of their life, a feeling of lack, a feeling of lack of hope. So the reason I'm asking is because I just thought of the skill of resilience. When you said that, you said, you were saying, just hold on, things will get better. I was thinking about in my school, we taught our children.


what resilience meant and then explicitly taught resilience because that stick ability is so so crucial. Would you agree with that and are there any others that you'd add to that that you think that either as educators or parents these are skills that we need to be sharing with our children teaching them explicitly because times are so challenging.


Vanessa Longley (37:50)

Yeah, I do. I sort of turn it. I'm to turn the question around, which is I think there are skills we can teach the parents and the teachers about how to connect with children. yeah, totally agree. need we need children to believe. We need them to hope and we need them to have resilience. But I've spoken to kids before that know the word resilience. don't know, you know, they're five and they know the word resilience.


Alis Rocca (37:57)

Yeah


Vanessa Longley (38:19)

But for them, what it means is stop complaining and get on with it. Because it's a phrase that's appeared as a value on the wall of their school without actually being shown what it means. So what I would say to parents and teachers is everything you do, every single activity that you do is a modeling and a learning opportunity for the children. That's how we learn. So let me give you an example. We had a...


Alis Rocca (38:22)

Mmm.


Yeah. Yeah.


Vanessa Longley (38:48)

We had a lad, an eight year old lad, who was referred to us because he'd grown up in an environment of domestic abuse and he had quite an odd attitude to women and he tended to lash out quite a lot. That's what made a real man in his books. And his mentors, one of our male mentors, decided that he needed him to learn a different way of being.


So he could have sat him down and talked to him, or he could do the thing which is about a mentoring mindset, which he decided to bake a cake with him. And what that was about was this lad's never baked before. And so firstly, it's about challenging those gender stereotypes. But more than that, if you've ever made a cake, you'll know that as you add the ingredients, it looks less and less like cake. You start mixing it up and it starts to look like a total mess.


And this is what this lad had said to us when he first met us. He said, I've made a mess in my life. And what his mentor was able to say to him as he mixed this cake and it looked like more and more of a mess was, look mate, we're following the recipe. I've been here before. I know this turns into a really decent cake, but you're just going to have to trust me. And so they were able to put this cake in the oven. It came out as a proper cake and he was able to eat it and enjoy it. Now there were a million lessons in there around.


perseverance, about trust, about things can look like a mess but they can turn out alright or okay around those it's not just women that make cakes it can be really nice to make your own cake and eat it and be proud of it. There are a million lessons in there but not once did we sit this child down and make them learn the word resilience. And I think that's what I'm saying is that we as adults around these children have the opportunity to share that insight but we need to be aware of our own emotions.


and need to be willing to talk about them. And we need to be able to let children have space to practice and get it wrong as well, because that's what our job is. It's a bit like, remember teaching your child how to ride a bike? I failed at this miserably, so this is really bad analogy, because I don't know really how to ride a bike. But there are those different stages. There's the stage where you're holding on and they are pretending to pedal.


Alis Rocca (41:05)

Yeah


Vanessa Longley (41:16)

But then there's the stage where you hold on the back and you say, come on, keep going, keep going. And then there's this bit where you might let go, but they don't quite know that yet. And that's what we need to teach parents and teachers is if you've got a child who's struggling, they're going to need this staged approach of someone alongside them. You might have to hold on at times, but you will get there and it's them that does the work. So yeah, just...


Alis Rocca (41:24)

Mm-hmm.


Vanessa Longley (41:44)

Just be willing to run alongside them for a bit.


Alis Rocca (41:46)

And that is the definition of the mentoring model, walking the journey with them.


Vanessa Longley (41:49)

It is absolutely,


absolutely whatever it is that they're, whatever it is that they're going through and with curiosity. Curiosity is the other key skill I would share which is be interested, be genuinely curious because they may be, I don't know, elbow deep in their online world which so many of our kids are now.


For them, there is no difference between their online world and their real life world. So if you are interested in who they're playing with at school or what they learned at school today, be just as interested and curious as to what their game is. What need is that meeting? And that curiosity would be paid back in tons because it means that that child has a way through, a conversation starter that they can use to talk to you when things get tricky.


Alis Rocca (42:46)

curiosity was another skill that we taught in my school. And absolutely, it was a real journey for us. We did have these words as values stuck on the wall. And it wasn't until we spent time talking to the children and observing them that we thought, yes, we have got five year olds that can go home and say the word resilience, but they have no idea what it means. And that's when we unpicked.


Vanessa Longley (42:58)

Yeah.


Bye.


Alis Rocca (43:13)

the attributes. So we looked at the attributes. So what does it mean to be resilient? And we made them real life occurrences. So it might be within a maths.


problem or it might be playing football with your friends at lunchtime, but actually modeling, like you just said, and using real life experiences to say, this is what it means to be curious. You've just shown curiosity by asking that question or by lifting that leaf to see what's underneath it. So I think, yeah, absolutely. As adults, we need to...


Vanessa Longley (43:30)

Thank


Absolutely.


Alis Rocca (43:47)

We need to know the skills and they will just be a word unless we know what the attributes of those skills are and teach through that modeling.


Vanessa Longley (43:56)

Never assume. think


that's the, yeah, absolutely. Never assume, especially, I mean, we're very lucky as parents that we have that one-to-one relationship, hopefully, with our children. As in the classroom, you're supporting dozens of kids in that environment, it can be very easy to assume a certain level of knowledge, especially if a kid has shown good knowledge in other areas.


those assumptions can be really dangerous and there are many, many more children covering. And remember going back to that magical thinking, they don't want to let you down. They will cover the fact that there are big gaps. They don't quite understand what you're saying. They don't understand that you've told them to do something and they'll perhaps get it a bit wrong because they didn't really understand the instruction, especially if they've got a processing disorder. I remember the sad...


time as a parent where they'd said in the classroom that they were going to make, design their own superheroes. And my daughter was six. She didn't know what a superhero was. She's got a sleep disorder and so disability. And so at the time she was going to bed about half past three and going and sleeping through. So she didn't get time for television. She didn't know what a superhero was. And so she thought really hard. She didn't ask for help. She thought really hard. And she thought about the books that


I'd read her and so she made a ghost. She was looking at other people and she made a ghost and the teacher said, well how is a ghost a superhero?


And there was this pause where she realized she'd got it wrong. And yeah, I mean, brings tears to my eyes, to be honest, but there are hundreds of children and thousands of children in the classroom. They're trying to understand those instructions and it's very, very easy for that to get past them. So what we do is we build inclusive classrooms, not because we're trying to accommodate all of the kids on the edge.


Alis Rocca (45:42)

Yeah.


you


you


Vanessa Longley (46:01)

We build inclusive classrooms because every child in that classroom at some point will need a little bit of help. You know, it may be your year seven reading test, year seven, age seven reading test, where you get it wrong because you've said it's a bunch of flowers, not a bouquet of flowers. And now you feel stupid because you didn't know such thing, the word bouquet existed. Or it could be that...


You're a child who's really, really healthy but finds it really difficult when it comes to tests or maths or something happened at home. You had an argument with your mum this morning and you're feeling really vulnerable. Every child, all of us, every adult has days when we need a little bit, a little bit more, a little bit more of the people around us to make us feel safe, to make us feel welcome and to make us feel we belong. But as soon as you build that environment, you build that sense of belonging,


Alis Rocca (46:52)

Hmm.


Vanessa Longley (46:56)

it becomes mutually supportive. And this is the other thing I want parents and teachers to know, which is our kids are brilliant at supporting each other. I know we're the ones that get involved when it goes wrong, when they argue, when they bully, when all of that yes can happen. But when you teach a child how to build friendships and they find true friends, then this becomes an incredibly mutually supportive group and they can solve problems together with


just a little bit of support from you. So it becomes this wonderful environment and I see it happening every day in classrooms across the country. This can be done.


Alis Rocca (47:37)

I was sitting as you were talking, I was sitting here thinking I can remember times in the classroom when I'd be a little girl being asked something and just just masking it and just thinking I've no idea what they're talking about. And then I suddenly thought actually that still happens. I can sit in a meeting as an adult.


And my mind might have just wandered. I might have just wandered off and thought about Tesco's and then come back halfway through the conversation and think, I've got to hide the fact that I now have no idea what they're talking about. And so I think all of us as adults can understand that feeling of just not being able, not being in with the conversation, not really getting it and having to hide it, feeling that you have to hide it because you might look stupid or look...


Vanessa Longley (48:05)

Yeah.


Alis Rocca (48:22)

ignorance or whatever it is, but yeah, actually that sense of community with all of you working collaboratively, where you feel that there is no judgment if you put your hand up and say, I missed what you said. Could you say that again? Or asking more questions.


Vanessa Longley (48:41)

And if you've got a child who is or has struggled, one of the gifts you can give them is


is to give them an opportunity to use an experience which may be really negative. I'm not trying to reduce the impact. So if your child has lived through a mental health crisis or lived through mental ill health, it can be a really tricky time. But either you can leave that as a dark memory for them or one of the things that you can do is say to them, you know what, there are other kids


in your classroom who are struggling? What if you could take your experience, which wasn't nice, but if you can find a way to use that to help other kids, how would that feel? And what we saw at Young Minds and we see at Chance UK time and time again, which is one of the difficulties that children have is that they are always the receivers of help. And that creates a self-image.


that can weigh on them. They may need help for a while, but if you allow them, even for a small amount, to then become the giver of help, it can be transformative for how they view themselves in the future and how they view this past negative experience. You're not asking them to unpack their trauma in front of other kids or stand up on a podium and share their story with the masses. It might be as simple as putting your hand up in class and saying, you know,


Alis Rocca (50:09)

Hmm.


Vanessa Longley (50:19)

actually miss, I know you were really clear but I'm not sure everyone in the classroom is clear on what we're supposed to be doing, could you just say it again for me? And you become an advocate and that is a real shift in how you see yourself and your role in society and it be a really positive


Alis Rocca (50:27)

Mm.


you


Just going to circle back to something you said earlier, which sort of sparked a question for me. You said, and you just use the story of teaching your child to ride a bike. And you said, I didn't do it very well because I wasn't very good at riding bikes myself. And I was just thinking, what if you feel like that as a parent? What if you feel like that as a teacher? If you're either suffering with mental health yourself or you don't get it, you don't really understand it, how do you do it well?


Vanessa Longley (50:51)

Hahaha


Well when you find out do let me know. No, Right, I put my professional head on and then I'll put my parent head back on. So when we put my, well actually, perhaps there's a blend here. What I would say is I, can tell you what I do, which is I have, just sitting on my right shoulder, I have my best friend. She's not physically there.


Alis Rocca (51:12)

Hahaha!


Okay.


Vanessa Longley (51:38)

but I keep her there on my shoulder. And not to tell me nice things, but when I start to self-criticise, when I start to say, isn't enough, I'm not enough, what I do is I turn to my imaginary best friend on my shoulder and think, what would I say to her if I heard her say that? Because I would never ever let my best friend say, I'm worthless. Because what I'd say to her is,


You're extraordinary. You're not superhuman, but you are extraordinary. And what's brilliant is there are people out there who are extraordinary, a different thing, because there is no one perfect human being. We can't be that. And we wouldn't want to be. That would be very dull. We all have our own areas of expertise, and we're all trying. And I use that being.


genuinely and constantly kind to yourself rather than judging yourself has a really important impact because when you turn to your child and you're looking at your child would you really want them to be that harsh on themselves? Do you want them to be saying I failed, I'm no good at this, I'm useless, I'm worthless or do you want them to be using that language of resilience which is I tried, I was no good at it but I gave it a good go, I'm going to give it another go.


tomorrow or I fell, I climbed the highest I've ever climbed before or this isn't my area of expertise, but you know what? I'm going to make it my business to find someone who does know what they're doing when it comes to times tables or riding a bike. And I'm going to ask them for some help and they'll enjoy helping me. And then I can help them with Shakespeare. It's this is this.


we're trying to build a society and this is what society looks like. It's not one person getting 100 % on every exam. Society is this interleaved, interconnected group of people who rely and support each other on different days with different things and that's what makes us happy and that's the ridiculous thing about it. If you talk to the people who are really really high achievers


sometimes they are deeply unhappy because actually it is in our faults and imperfections and weaknesses that we are able to share a vulnerability and connect, genuinely connect, which is why I talk with our kids. I talk a lot about the difference between true friends and acquaintances or mates and true friends. You can tell them because they're the ones that when you are feeling sad,


Alis Rocca (54:16)

Mm.


Vanessa Longley (54:30)

all the ones that will come over and go, you all right? It's all right, I've got you. So yeah, my friend's on my shoulder and I would encourage everyone just occasionally to be their own best friend.


Alis Rocca (54:40)

I love that. I think I've got one there now. She's sitting there now. Thank you. And another thing that popped into my head when you were talking about, I asked you why you think there's a mental health crisis and you talked about society really at the moment. You talked about the news, what we hear, the constant pinging of the phone, the constant notifications on our computers, the constant to-do list.


Vanessa Longley (54:57)

I'm sorry.


Alis Rocca (55:07)

it's not just our kids that are living in that world, it's us as well. So do you have any advice for parents on how to create almost a safe zone, I suppose, in your own home for you and your children to help with the barrage of what 2025 feels like?


Vanessa Longley (55:29)

I think this will be, there's going to be a lot of uniqueness here because there are a million different types of families and households. I think that routine helps. And what I mean is not structured, disciplined, never change ever, but familiarity is there's a level of comfort in that. I talk, and so lots of people talk about it as routine. I actually talk about it as ritual.


So what we do within your family is you have things that are unique to your family, the things that matter, whether that's particular celebrations, whether that's Friday night dinner, or it's a celebration breakfast because it's Saturday, or I'm going to talk just about food, isn't that terrible? That says much more about me than I'd like to reveal. Or carpet time in your own house. I have an absolute, so one of our rituals


Alis Rocca (56:16)

Yeah.


Vanessa Longley (56:28)

in my household. So even though my daughter is now 20, when she comes back from university, she will still climb into my bed before she goes to sleep and we'll talk to each other about the books we've been reading, which is ridiculous because I don't even understand most of the things she's reading nowadays. But there is a ritual and a comfort in that. It feels like home. And what I would urge you is really value those. Don't dismiss those little bits of time that you have with your child.


that are meaningful, but make them meaningful. Be present. You don't need to be there all the time, but when you are, just do something together that is meaningful for you. And you can ask your child, what's it you want to do? And it's often in those very simple side-by-side times that can really help. Side-by-side helps. We are very well known in this country for not being very good at looking each other in the eye and sharing our emotions.


And there is a rule technique around doing something alongside. So putting your kid in the car and going for a drive with the music blaring and having a chat whilst you're side by side or washing up together or whatever the activity is colouring together. Just if you're going to ask them the question, how are you? Try and do it when you're not staring at them. Things like that are these, it's in these small everyday moments.


Alis Rocca (57:49)

Mm.


Vanessa Longley (57:57)

And the other thing I would encourage parents' care is to think about is to think about back to their own childhood and be careful because we all carry with us difficulties that we had in our childhood. But when you remember good times, wherever that was, is it in these huge occasions, you the time you visited Disney World or went to an adventure park or went out for a huge glorious meal? Mostly it's the little things.


it's a soft toy, it's an emotion that you remember, it's the smell of a perfume that your mum wore, it is those little things that make a difference so celebrate those.


Alis Rocca (58:37)

That's fantastic advice. Thank you. Let's move on to talking about exclusion and suspension now, because I know you have a lot to do with that as at Chance UK. Your website actually says that when children are excluded or suspended from primary school, the negative impact can last a lifetime. Can you tell me a bit about why that's the case? Why does it last? Why is it so deep rooted? What are your thoughts on this area?


Vanessa Longley (58:44)

Yeah.


you


So we saw this, we started to see this really odd pattern of children getting excluded that we were supporting and that's why we did the research. It's the largest ever research done into primary school exclusions. And what we tracked, we tracked millions of children across the country from their first day in nursery all the way through to their GCSEs and looked at what happened for those who did experience school exclusions of primary and those who didn't.


And the pattern is that if you get excluded at primary school, you have more than a 90 % chance of failing your GCSE maths and English, which of course are the passport GCSEs for you to get into some of the entry level jobs. And without those, you can end up having to either reset time and time again or really struggle to try and get your foot on the ladder in the workplace.


And this is what we mean is that there are really less, there's a long lasting consequence. And the feedback from the children that we see is really consistent, which is if you feel your school has given up on you at such a young age, then what's the point in trying? And that's the connection that we see. There are more exclusions at secondary school, but they don't have the same impact. And the other thing that we found is 97%, almost every child excluded a primary school.


has a special educational need or disability. So we're not excluding the naughty kids. We're excluding the kids who are most in need. These are also the kids which are far, far more likely receiving preschool meals and far from likely to be identified as a child in need by social care. So these are the kids who are struggling and who need support. And if you exclude them from school, then they are not necessarily going to be going home to a warm,


safe, well-fed, computer-generated household that has everything they need for ongoing learning. We need to hold on to these kids.


Alis Rocca (1:01:14)

So what advice would you give to school leaders around this? So I'm thinking of lack of funds. I'm thinking of over...


overarching need in classrooms, I'm thinking of overworked teachers, EHCP, all the things that are leading schools to the edge really, because nobody goes into education like you said before, we all go into education because we want to be the best that we can for our children. Nobody chooses to exclude. What is the answer when things are getting so difficult in schools? How do we keep children in school?


Vanessa Longley (1:01:57)

I absolutely agree. think teachers are doing an extraordinary job in really difficult times. But when you've got a five-year-old who's been excluded 17 times in a year, which is one of the children that we support, something is wrong. And I think what I would say immediately to school leaders is we need you to know the impact of the decision you're about to make for this child.


So we can almost guarantee that if they don't have a diagnosis yet, they will be getting a diagnosis as a child in need. There's something that you can help them with in order to stay safely in your school. And the second thing I'd say is, is there anything more you can do? Knowing the likely long-term impact of this school exclusion, is there anything other way that we can think of? there any other support mechanisms we can put in place?


The school leader I spoke to with a lad who stole the apple, he said, standard, two days exclusion for any stealing. And when I said to him, but this circumstance, you're sending him home, he stole because his mum is hungry and you are sending her home to a household for two days with no, he's on free school meals. Is there no way you can flex this policy? And he said, it wouldn't be fair if we changed the rules for each child.


And that's why I would challenge school leaders, because that is a disproportionate punishment for that lad, because you're sending him home to a hungry household. So what I'd say to school leaders is, make the policies flex for the child, make the punishment, if a punishment is appropriate, proportionate for what that, for the, not the behavior, but what the child is experiencing. And the other thing I'd say is there are schools that have found ways to do this. You clearly did.


at your school. But I've seen schools massively reduce problems in the classroom with one simple change. So one of that changes that usually or previously they press the button because a child was acting out in the classroom and a school leader would come and remove that child from the classroom so the teacher could carry on teaching. And the change that they made was as simple as they press the button, the school leader would come in and take the class and the trusted class teacher would take the child out.


and they would sit them down and go, things aren't working out today for you, they? What can we do? And the message that that teacher was now giving the child was, I'm not giving up on you. You stay here with me. We can sort this out together. And that one simple change, no extra cost, no extra time lost from the classroom, but this is the things that we can do differently. And it's about being, we talk about being trauma informed. And what we mean by that is seeing the whole child.


There is something going on that we need to understand more about. And when you put a little bit of time in upfront, it can transform the situation around explosions.


Alis Rocca (1:05:01)

Lovely, thank you. And what about for parents? What advice would you give for parents if they can see that there's a spiralling behaviour issue with their child and they're concerned that it might lead to exclusion or suspension? What would you say they do?


Vanessa Longley (1:05:15)

Yeah, first


thing I need to tell parents that you are not alone on this. We are seeing soaring rates of school exclusion. And although it can feel like you are being judged alongside your child, what they need you to do for them is to go and speak with the school and to get help. We've got a ton of help on our website if you think your child may be at risk of exclusion.


But the more you can talk to the school and the more you can talk to other people and get support in place, the more likely you are to keep, not just keep your child in school, because that's not necessarily the only goal. It's about getting the child the right support to be able to flourish wherever they are. And there will always be a few children that need a different type of education. And that's inevitable. But actually what we want, what we want as a society, are classrooms where


children who are from all sorts of backgrounds, from all sorts of futures can thrive. We talk a lot, we talk a lot to the kids about that we value who they are and who they'll become because they'll arrive with us and they'll often have struggled, they'll often have things in their life that they may not be proud of but that helps shape them. They will be far, far better at supporting other people in the future because of the things that they've been through already and so we value


both what they're bringing to us and what they'll become and that's what I say to parents is never give up, never give up because there is help out.


Alis Rocca (1:06:51)

Thank you. And you started our podcast saying that the way you work is running at the big picture. What about central government? I started this section talking about lack of funding and changing of the goalposts and high risk pressures on school. What would you want to see from central government to help?


Vanessa Longley (1:06:59)

Yeah.


Yeah.


Alis Rocca (1:07:18)

with these high statistics of exclusions and suspension.


Vanessa Longley (1:07:22)

We're listening to Bridget Penitent talk about investing in special educational needs and disabilities, and Lisa Nandy talk about investment in youth work. It's incredibly heartening, incredibly heartening that you can see that there is a genuine belief in wanting to start pushing money down into that youth, children and youth space. What I would say is that we need to room fence money fairly in prevention.


Because of course it's a natural instinct that you throw money towards the place where children end up in crisis. But we can't just wait for a child to reach crisis because already then they're learning how to spiral, not learning how to flourish. And we need to move some of that money back. And right now, this year, we've seen the largest ever numbers.


of school exclusions in age six and under. It's the fastest growing rate of exclusions. And that for me, is the canary in the mine. Exclusions happen at the end of lots of other things happening. It's because we're sending kids to school who aren't ready. This is the cohort who were tiny when COVID hit. They often weren't diagnosed.


Alis Rocca (1:08:20)

Why do you think that is?


Vanessa Longley (1:08:43)

early so early things weren't spotted because they weren't going to bump some babies groups and an early nursery they missed out on some socialization and then even if they have got a diagnosis they're sitting on waiting lists which are months and years long so we've got this cohort of children who we know are struggling already so if we don't put the help in early then we've got another generation of kids


who are starting to escalate and starting to reach crisis at a younger and younger age. And it's fixable. And this is the point. If we didn't know what to do, then that would be understandable. But we do. We can see what works. 80 % of the kids that we see have improved school attendance, although that's not a big one, end of life. And 100 % of them experience improved emotional and wellbeing. You know, this is incredible.


ways to work. We can track the hope that kids experience. They turn up after six months, nine months, a year with us. They know that they have a future. know, an 11-year-old said to me the other day, she said, I don't know what I want to do in the future, but I know I'm worth doing something. And that's what we want. She started to dream again.


That's what we want from this generation of kids because that's the society we want for the future. So what I am regularly saying to government, lobbying government, is to say, let's ring-fenced money for early intervention. Let's fix the problem before it becomes a crisis.


Alis Rocca (1:10:26)

thank you. The last little bit that I want to pick your brain on is, is labelling and identity. How does labelling impact on self identity and a child's ability to grow into their full self? We talk quite a lot about diagnosis and labels from school and professionals. What is the impact of that?


Vanessa Longley (1:10:44)

Yeah.


I think diagnosis can be useful and I would never say to a family or to a child that you should try to avoid getting a label because it can be really helpful. What I would say is that the whole point of childhood, you only get one chance at childhood and the whole point is that you discover who you are. That's the journey you go on. And there are many things that make me me.


And if I think of my daughter, there are many things that make her her. Her diagnosis is one of them. It's actually not a really important one for her because she manages her condition very well. I'd say the fact she's not able to walk past a bookshop without buying a book is a much more key identity defining element of who she is. And I suppose I joke, but one of the things we know about children is their identity isn't complete.


Alis Rocca (1:11:37)

Yeah.


Vanessa Longley (1:11:47)

There are lots of things we might see and this is where a lot of our equality and diversity comes in as well, which is, it's very easy to say this is a child from a minoritized community. But how do we know if that's gonna become an incredibly important part of their identity when it may be that their sexuality is how they define themselves? Intersectionality is such an important thing because it's some of the choices we make about


which bits of ourself feel important today in this particular environment. And we want to encourage kids to grow and flourish to their full selves. And that may well include a label and a diagnosis. But that's the difference between, I mean, it's not the language, I hate the language, but it's the deficit and asset-based approaches into identity, which is, it's all too easy. The medical model is to identify what a child...


do and we're often ticking boxes. Can they do this? No. Can they do that? No. Well, in which case they'd scored five, in which case they get a diagnosis of this. It's all about what they can't do. Whereas the asset-based model is saying, okay, as you now know, I'm no good at riding a bike. It's not how I define myself. I have amazing memory for good literature. I can literally quote the Shakespeare I read when I was 10, 11, 12.


It just got stuck somehow. I've got that sort of brain. And shouldn't we be celebrating? That's how I see myself. That's part of my identity. And yeah, I use it and I can share it. But that's what we want. So if you've got a child who's got a diagnosis, and this is especially true, I think, when it's a mental health diagnosis, because these are the things that slightly stigmatize, that they don't want to share, that we get worried about, that's okay.


Alis Rocca (1:13:36)

and


Vanessa Longley (1:13:42)

that doesn't define who you are. It's just part of one tiny proportion of what you are. And there may well even be things that happen as a result. So one of the children that we support who's neurodiverse has this extraordinary hyper focus. So they are able to delve into and get to know subjects.


to a depth that I have never ever seen. It's extraordinary. They're level with research ability. And then they're exhausted and they'll have three days in bed. Okay, but why are we focusing on the problem rather than celebrating? So yeah, I like labels if they're self-chosen. And I'd like to be able to swap them. I'd love it if we could all have a label saying, this is who I am today. This is what I want you to know about me today.


Alis Rocca (1:14:37)

Is there anything that we should be doing as adults, whether parents or school education, educationalists that help children develop positive identities that would impact on their mental health in a good way?


Vanessa Longley (1:14:52)

Yeah, just keep asking them. What are you proud of? What do you like about yourself? Actually direct them at their attention to the positives because everyone else around them, every other organisation will be looking at the negatives. You have to remind them what the positives are and reflect it back to them. You know, you're really good at that. I don't know how you do that. That's brilliant. And then we also have to model. How many times have we got up and said, I'm not good at that?


you're brilliant at maths, I'm no good at maths. Rather than saying, you know, I've always struggled with maths, numbers isn't my thing, words are my thing. And that constantly balancing it. And so I think there's lots we can do around that. I think there's also, remember we talked about curiosity earlier, and I think when I'm talking about curiosity with children, a lot of the children I see have had very, very limited experiences.


hardly surprised, they're only seven or eight or nine. They have not yet traveled the world and seen all there is to see and experience everything. So when they say, or when their parent or teachers, or when they don't like this and they don't do that, or they don't eat this, one of the things I always say is, oh, they only eat chips, really? They try every other food. And then you turn it into a game. Like, right, okay, have you ever tried something that's green?


They're like, no, it's disgusting. Well, let's go find every single green thing we can find in the supermarket. Let's play. Because isn't that what curiosity is rooted in? It's not rules and things. But here's a label. I don't eat green things. Let's see if we can play with that. If you've got a label that says, have anxiety, let's see if we can play a little bit with that. We play gently with children with anxiety, but we still play.


Alis Rocca (1:16:24)

you


Vanessa Longley (1:16:46)

Because there will be things that you can do that don't make you anxious. Like, I don't know, if you've got your favorite, if you've got your favorite toy that you've carried everywhere since, since you were in the pram, you know, does, does, you know, does that bunny make you anxious? No. Okay. That's great. That's, that's, that's evidence. That's proof that you know that the world of anxiety doesn't always exist everywhere. Let's play with this stuff. Let's be curious with these labels and let's help these children explore the world a little bit more.


Even one step out of their comfort zone makes their world exponentially bigger when you're that age.


Alis Rocca (1:17:23)

Vanessa, it's been fantastic talking to you. There's just so much packed into this and so many things that we can take away from it, whether we're parents, whether we work in schools, there's lots that are really actionable. And when you explain it, they're quite easy. It's just remembering, we need to remember to do it.


Vanessa Longley (1:17:26)

you


Alis Rocca (1:17:41)

If you could name one thing that you'd want to see happen in school, so of all the different topics we've talked about, something that would help support children and families, what would you want to see schools do? What would it be?


Vanessa Longley (1:17:54)

This is this is again probably quite a personal one which is I'd like there to be a pair of empathy glasses on the counter of reception the reception is able to hand out at any opportunity to anyone who needs it mostly adults and these empathy glasses just make you go and stand in someone else's shoes for a moment just makes you think for a moment what might that other person that other that child or that other adult


be feeling right now under the circumstances that I can observe. Because we spend so much time in our side, our own heads, because we're worried about ourselves or we're worried about our own children, that sometimes that empathy just leaks away a little bit. And I think a world where there was just a bit more empathy and a bit more kindness could be a pretty nice one.


Alis Rocca (1:18:47)

Lovely. We'll get the central government to hand out empathy glasses to every school. I love that. I love that. And I just want to check, is there anything that we haven't covered? Anything that you think, I wish I'd got the opportunity to say this, or do you feel like we've covered everything?


Vanessa Longley (1:18:53)

That would be brilliant. Thank you.


I think the one thing that we haven't said because, so this podcast is going to be listened to mainly by parents and teachers, but you never know. There may be a kid in the background listening right now who has been excluded or has been told they're to be excluded. And I want them to know I am the chief executive of Chance UK and we have done the largest ever research into primary school exclusions. And I know for a fact that it's not your fault.


I know for a fact that with the right support you can be at school successfully. But I need you to believe in yourself and I need you to ask for help. That's all.


Alis Rocca (1:19:51)

I love that. Thank you. Is there anything that you'd want any of the adults listening to take away from this conversation?


Vanessa Longley (1:19:53)

Thanks.


Hold on in there. is a, childhood is a journey.


We need all of us to stay holding on to those kids that we love. And it does get easier.


Alis Rocca (1:20:19)

Vanessa, thank you so much for your time today and so much for sharing your experience and your wise words.


Vanessa Longley (1:20:27)

Thank you, it's been great fun.