Nip in the Bud® Podcast - The children's mental health charity

How to celebrate neurodiversity and learn from our children

• Nip in the Bud Children's Mental Charity

Share episode

Summary

In this episode of the Nip in the Bud podcast, Scott Mair, director of Fatherhood Solutions, shares his insights on parenting, particularly focusing on the complexities of raising children with autism. He discusses the importance of understanding individual differences among children, the myths surrounding autism diagnoses, and the emotional journey parents undergo. Scott emphasizes the value of listening to children and adapting parenting approaches to meet their unique needs. He also shares his family's experience with homeschooling, highlighting its benefits and the importance of community support for home-educated children. The conversation is peppered throughout with key takeaways for parents and educators on fostering a supportive environment for neurodiverse children.


Keywords

fatherhood, autism, parenting, neurodiversity, homeschooling, education, family dynamics, emotional intelligence, support systems, child development


Takeaways

  • Parenting is a learning journey where children teach us.
  • Autism is not a limitation but a different way of being.
  • Celebrate the strengths of neurodiverse individuals.
  • Parents should trust their instincts and advocate for their children.
  • Home education can provide tailored learning experiences.
  • Schools need to create inclusive environments for all children.
  • Communication between parents and schools is crucial.
  • Understanding individual needs is key to effective parenting.
  • Emotional support is vital for children with autism.
  • Building a community can enhance the homeschooling experience.


Useful links:

Fatherhood Solutions - https://www.ipip.co.uk/fatherhood-solutions/

Nip in the bud Autism resources - https://nipinthebud.org/films-teachers-category/autism/

Autism Tips for Teachers - https://nipinthebud.org/fact-sheet/autism-tips-for-teachers/

Nip in the Bud - Where to get help

https://nipinthebud.org/where-to-get-help/



Alis (00:01)

Hi Scott and welcome to the Nip in the Bud podcast. Thank you so much for your time in coming and chatting with me today.


Scott Mair (00:09)

No, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.


Alis (00:12)

Thank you. So let's start with hearing about your background. Can you tell us about your background?


Scott Mair (00:18)

Yeah, I'll try and keep it concise -ish. I've got a habit of talking too much as I get told. So yeah, my name is Scott Mair I'm director of an organisation called Fatherhood Solutions, which works preliminarily with fathers in the start for life area, which is the one thousand and one days. So we support during pregnancy up to child's second birthday. And as things have grown, we've started to work in various different areas. So we support fathers on


all aspects of their journey right through to, as I'm about to announce, that I'm a grandfather. yeah, my wife Sarah and I, we've got seven boys. My eldest is 21, my youngest is five, pretty much every two years all the way down. And yeah, our eldest has got, so it's the first girl in the family. And she's five months old and they live with us, so we've really been able to thoroughly enjoy.


Alis (00:52)

congratulations.


lovely.


Scott Mair (01:12)

sort of the grandparenting journey. So yeah, we work with families on all aspects of the journey through parenthood into grandparenthood.


Alis (01:21)

Tell us a little bit about your boys. You've got seven boys. Can you give us bit of background on them?


Scott Mair (01:28)

Yeah, it's funny because when we look at the sort of parenting area and the conversations that we have, we're looking for if parents, if it's the same parents, we expect children to behave the same or to act the same in certain situations. And I think sometimes we think there is something wrong or we are doing something wrong if they react differently. And that's one thing I always try and point out. There's lots of similarities in my boys, but there's sore bits that are so wildly different.


And I actually quite enjoy the sit and watching how they behave in certain situations, how they problem solve. So yes, my eldest, like I've mentioned, he's 21. He's very practical in terms of how he processes things, how he interacts. So he's gone into, he's a tradesman, which fits that sort of narrative. Three, soon to be four of my boys have autism, which is where we obviously first started connecting, discussing that.


And there is obviously aspects of that, that again, you've got similarities. And we as a society think that when you have a diagnosis, I don't like calling them labels because they're much more than labels, is that we look for the bits that every child has that are the same. And that's how we look to identify it. Whereas my boys have autism, there is parts that are the same, but there's so much that's not. And some of them are very emotional.


And I don't mean that in a critical way, but they're in tune with their emotions and they pick up on other people's, then some of my boys are more logical and practical and sometimes miss the impact they have on other people and the things that they might do or say. We look at sort of what we call the ODD, the anti -authority aspect of it that we sometimes label as challenging behaviour.


which is just, you know, as children become adults, we sometimes want them to push boundaries and we want them to stand their ground, but we don't always like it when they're doing it to us as their parents. And I'm one of them, you know, so there's sometimes two of my boys that come to mind. It's because I said so means nothing and it's absolutely nothing. And I catch myself saying it and think I'm just wasting my time because that's not a good enough reason. And they will push back on that. it's tell me why I can't do that. You know, explain to me why that's not a good idea.


Alis (03:38)

Yeah.


Scott Mair (03:41)

And it's almost like they're saying, help me understand what you're trying to say. But we sometimes see it as challenging. And when you've had a lazy morning and it's a Saturday or Sunday and you've got a little bit more chill time, you can get into that conversation and you can quite admire it. When it's a stressful week and you've got 10 plates spinning at the air and it's just, can you just do this please? And you're getting that challenge back. It's not quite as easy to accept. So I know a lot of what we'll discuss today is sometimes practical, but it's also ideal world. But yeah, with my boys that...


They're so different, but we're very close. And the one thing we've got two, my two eldest have got partners and they're immersing themselves into sort of our family network. We do everything together. We home educate all of the boys, which we'll get into later on. So we are very much a unit and we operate in that way. And it can be a little bit intimidating, I suppose for somebody coming into it, but you know, we support each other. love each other and ferociously as most families do.


But it is a little bit of a goldfish bowl at times and we appreciate that sometimes all of our boys need their own space, some of my boys more than others. know, I'm a little bit of, if I get overwhelmed, I go for a walk, I need to remove myself from the situation, whereas my wife Sarah can say submerged in that situation and be okay. So it's learning, I think, from a young age what my children have needed in certain situations and giving them the space to engage with it. Sometimes it's to go to their room.


and shut the world out for a little while and that's okay sometimes. Or that they just need to be around you a little bit more sometimes because there's something going on that we're not aware of yet and they just need that reassurance. I've definitely learnt everything I know about fatherhood they taught me. I didn't know it before I had children and I wouldn't know it without them. So it's, I'm probably the student more than the teacher, I think.


Alis (05:33)

I want to just circle back to something you said right at the beginning actually when you were saying and I feel this exactly the same I've got three children and they're all very different and I feel like I've done the same parenting I've been on the same route with them all so you talked about the fact that you can be the same two parents but actually they all come out very differently and then you went on to say that even those with a diagnosis of


autism, they're not just going to have a diagnosis of autism, which means that they are all behaving and thinking in the same way. Did you find that that changes as they develop and grow? Or did you, the way that you could say describe one of your sons with autism, do you feel that that's how he is? So he's emotional, he's attached to his emotions, or do you feel that that has been a developmental process in itself and will still continue to grow?


Scott Mair (06:29)

Do know what, I think that's a brilliant question and I don't think I've ever been asked that before. It is so fundamentally important to understanding autism in general, but obviously our children is yes, that there is things that will change. This is a lot of the work that my wife and I do is with local authorities and third sectors around about supporting autism, just being more aware of it and adding that lived experience to the pediatricians and the professionals that will make diagnosis of what it's like to live with.


Alis (06:31)

Hehehehe. Hehehehe.


Scott Mair (06:58)

and the challenges that we sometimes face. And so we are at different stages with my boys and we've got one that's a teenager. And when you add that change, you know, the hormones, everything that's rushing through their system, if they're already sensory, you start adding those additional complications that come with becoming a teenager in puberty, you enhance a lot of that. So some of the things that were maybe not particularly big issues in their behavior or their emotions are now coming to the forefront.


And the bits that you've seen as the bits that were maybe quirky or the bits that you quite enjoyed sometimes start to slip to the back of that personality because the emotional side starts to come forward because of puberty when they're a little bit younger. And we can now obviously identify, I I've seen in certain areas, they're screening from six months for autism, which I mean, there is ways to be aware. We know that there is cues that you can pick up on, but it was normally about two.


that we really started to engage with services with my boys. The difference between a two -year -old with autism and a four -year -old is sometimes very different in that same child. What I believe is important is that we allow them the space to grow in that space. We allow them to be individuals. What I don't always agree with, and this is not criticism for anybody that does it, this is just me personally, is that I don't see autism as an excuse for certain things.


Alis (08:08)

Hmm.


Scott Mair (08:22)

And I think that sometimes I've seen with my boys is if you allow it to be, they sometimes take it to be and they could push the boundaries and hide behind the diagnosis. Whereas when they've maybe got a little bit more freedom, but also some boundaries in place, then we do start to see that what they're told they won't be able to do as they go through the screening process. And when you get that diagnosis, like when anybody that listens that will have been through this.


that hears, I'm really sorry to tell you that your child's got autism. And it's like, well, what are you sorry for? Because we're not. It's almost seen as something that is very negative from the beginning. And if that filters through, we put that limitation on them. And I think if we can sometimes lift that limitation from them, then we see that they will develop in the way that children will in general. And the autism doesn't become something that is heavy on top of them. It becomes something that this is who I am.


and I will develop and I will achieve in spite of it, not because of it. And I've definitely seen that with my boys as they've gone through different stages. And this challenging behaviour that I've already mentioned twice that we keep coming back to, it's at different stages they will push boundaries, they will test limits, they will want to take risks. And it sometimes just looks heightened because there is a diagnosis of autism and that obviously there is elements of it that we have to bear in mind in terms of how they process.


And it is difficult, and I'm not saying it's not, but it's just from what I've seen from my boys is that they can go on their own journey and they can grow alongside that diagnosis. It doesn't have to sort of keep them bugged down, which is sometimes what we do is we just, let's say, we put that limit on them. And it's very hard to punch their way through it. And I've definitely seen that with my boys and part of the reason why we home educate.


Alis (10:13)

Thank you for that. You talked a little bit there about the similarities and the differences between your boys and especially those with autism. Do you feel that there's myths as well as those glass ceilings that you talk about? Do think there's myths around autism that perhaps might make a parent feel negative when they're given that diagnosis? So you talked about for you when somebody said, we're really sorry.


to tell you this, you just thought what you're sorry for, we're not. Do you think there's a compilation of the myth of what that's gonna bring, but also maybe perhaps as parents, we have a child and we think, they're gonna be this and they're gonna be that and they're gonna grow up and do such and such. I know certainly when I was working in schools, there was almost like a grief process, if you like, with some of my parents.


when they came to the realization because they decided he's gonna be a lawyer and she's gonna be a doctor and it almost for them changed who they believed they were raising. What are your thoughts around that?


Scott Mair (11:23)

Again, another really good question. so I've tried to split this between what I personally have experienced and what I see professionally. And I think that this question allows me to do that very well. There is that grief process for lots of parents that I've worked with. it's almost, when we look at grief, it's almost like we have to have lost someone. But I think it's the expectations of what we thought an experience was going to be.


Alis (11:25)

Yeah.


Scott Mair (11:51)

That relationship when we work with parents that have had babies, for example, and it was a difficult delivery or baby ends up in a neonatal unit or one that parents end up unwell with mental illness. You grieve what you thought you were going to have in that early process and it taints what you actually have. And I think that it's the same, said, with that diagnosis when we're looking at autism, because you automatically look at the things that you're maybe not going to be able to do.


and the relationship that you don't think you're no going to have. I work, like I've said, predominantly with fathers. One of the things that we see so much with services is dad's not taking it seriously. He's not quite understanding the severity. He's in denial. He doesn't seem to want to accept the fact that his child's got a diagnosis of autism. We hear that so often from services. And it's looking at the fact that we are dealing with people in relationships and there is complexities. But if we look at, and this is not...


exclusive to but the male and female brain is 99 .9 % of where I work is in that role you will have one that is nurturing and caring and not always but when you get that diagnosis there's like the it's like the natural response to just put the arm around and just hug your baby a little bit more and sometimes they don't want that because sometimes children of autism don't want that physical touch but it's like I'm going to nurture you I'm going to love you we'll get through this it'll be okay I will protect you.


that is the sort of natural response sometimes. And yes, there may be a grieving process in that. But what happens with dads sometimes is their process looks a little bit different. And it's not just, know, dad could be emotional and mom could be practical, but predominantly it's the other way around. Is the, for me to accept that this is actually what you're telling me is the case and there is this diagnosis, then I have to accept that there is something wrong. And I don't use that language, but I know it's the one that is used quite often. Is there something wrong with my child? And I can't protect them from it.


I can't take it away, I can't keep them safe in a world that I don't understand. So it's not that they're sometimes in denial, particularly the fathers, it just takes them a little bit longer to understand, okay, how do we move forward? Because where the parent that's maybe slightly more emotionally invested is the, baby just needs me right now to guide them through this and do the best I can to make sure they get the support they need. And that's perfect. But it's also perfect for the dad who's thinking and,


catastrophizing it five steps ahead because they're practical and logically thinking what they can do for a career, how they're going to get married, how they're going to live on their own, how they're going to be able to fend for themselves because we sometimes don't understand what the diagnosis is but it's also the provide and protect mentality that we sometimes face. it looks different and I think it's really good that we identify that there is that element of I thought we're going to be able to play football, go to the rugby and do whatever it is. So when we run


sessions for parents, it's predominantly dads that I work with that have just had that diagnosis. It is sort of stripping that back to you might not be able to do what you thought you were going to do, but there is so much that you can do. There is so much they're capable of and you will find other interests. know, and some of it is very stereotypical. You know, it might be something to do with technology. It might be Minecraft, which we know is a big favourite sometimes. It's those activities where they can focus and get lost is that


you can get focused with them. It doesn't have to be what you thought they were going to do because you might have wanted them to do dance or to become a singer and people who says they can't, but you're already thinking they can't. But if they're not going to go on to live the life that we thought they were going to, which I think is a lot of pressure to put on children in general, even without autism, is that it's not what we think you're going to be and then you feel that you've failed if you don't achieve it. And if we take the autism out of the equation,


Alis (15:33)

I was going to say the same.


Scott Mair (15:42)

that is something that happens quite a lot. So even without the autism, might not have played football or wanted to go to ballet. So that's not the only reason that they don't, but that's what we sometimes think is because of this, they can't do it. And then like you said, you do start to sort of grieve what you thought you were going to have. And this is not criticizing anybody that's felt this because it happens quite a lot. Lots of parents do experience that. It's trying to a little bit celebrate that.


Yes, this is what they can't do, but there is so much and that's the thing that society, I believe, gets fundamentally wrong. We don't celebrate neurodiversity. There is so many positives. There is so much these children and adults are capable of because they have autism. So it's not the bits they can't do because they've got autism. It's what they will actually be able to do because they do. And the frontline services like the police, for example, have specialist teams now that they will look at cold cases because of their attention to detail.


You know, they are perfect for certain jobs. We look at the military, they're looking to recruit for looking at drones and looking at maps because of the way they can study details. So there are so many positives that they're capable of and the way they analyze data and the way that they look at things and how incredibly honest they can be and how vulnerable they can be. It's really important, I think, and it's a skill that we often overlook because we get so caught up in...


what society says around neurodiversity that it is something that is bad and it is something that is wrong and we focus very negatively on it and I think that that almost makes parents believe that they're supposed to be very sad about that diagnosis because if you listen to what society says, know, then it's a very dark group and that's not always the case, I don't think.


Alis (17:29)

I think what I'm taking away from what you just said there is a real focus on those benefits. So the attention to detail, the sense that they could be loving, they could be emotional, everything that they could bring. And I suppose what you're saying again links back to something you said earlier about you're the student, you're the one that's learning from your boys.


We're all learning in life. Everything that we come across, regardless of any diagnosis, is going to be an experience that we may or may not have expected to turn out in the way that it has. I suppose my next question really for you is, can you remember what you felt like when your first son had the diagnosis compared to now as you're going through it with your, did you say fourth son?


Scott Mair (18:22)

Yeah.


Alis (18:22)

We've also done with diagnosis. you remember the two differences? And if you could give a few pieces of really simple general advice to our listeners, some of them who will be parents, some of them will be educationists, but those parents that might be listening, what would you advise them to do if they got that diagnosis? I mean, I'm already thinking in my head, the first thing I would do is learn. I would go out and learn more. But can you remember those two different...


responses that you had and what would you say is your biggest takeaway from that?


Scott Mair (18:58)

Yeah, again, I'm loving these questions. I actually did quite a big piece on this recently with local authorities, this very area, because we also looked at the process. And the process was sort of from where we are now, it's seven years, pretty much, from when we'd finished with the first process to now starting to engage with the fourth process. Very different. It's a very different journey. It's a very different experience.


Alis (19:00)

haha


Scott Mair (19:26)

One of the things that has shifted is there is more of that parent voice of asking what it's like to live with it and taking that insight and not being told how your child should be reacting, but actually asking you what you see in certain situations and using the people that spend the other 23 hours a day rather than just listen to the ones that spend that one hour. And that links me back quite nicely really to the first point is you


you will have a gut instinct, not always, because sometimes it blinds ages a little bit, but you will have that gut instinct as a parent is very rarely wrong. And from our point of view, we didn't know what I'd be lying if I sat here and said that what I knew then, because we got the diagnosis eight years ago, but we started the conversation 13 years ago. That we had, we didn't know what we knew. We just knew there was something that was ever so slightly different.


Yeah, so I would be lying if I said I knew then what I know now, because as you've just touched on, I've studied it. And that is one piece of advice that I give as well. But from our point of view, my 15 year old, two, two and a half, we suspected there was something but didn't have the understanding. We were suspecting it was autism. Then nursery became very challenging and it was in and around other children.


It was loud noises. And as we started to raise some of the concerns, was almost like it was, we singled out my son for struggling in that situation rather than how do we proof that situation so that he doesn't. And that was probably our introduction. And then from nursery into sort of reception year one, and we realized something was wrong and we just kept pushing it and we kept getting told he doesn't have autism because he can talk, which was the sort of the first pushback.


And that wasn't that long ago that we still sort of had that understanding. it was, but we don't really see it when he comes to school. And I said, yeah, but because you don't see it in a nursery and in reception, we see it by the time we even get to the car to get him home. It's that sort of four o 'clock meltdown that lots of parents will be aware of. And if not, you can sort of research and look into that. It's the holding it all together during the day and then it's got to come out somewhere and it comes out in that safe space, which is predominantly with the parents or the carers.


and it was constantly pushing back at the school and saying that we just know, you know, he's not happy. He's really struggling. He was incredibly intelligent, but just lost, you know, just not enjoying even at a very young age. And then we just seen the journey plot the same sort of course. And it was, if he struggled in a certain situation, they just removed him from the situation or put extra barriers in place. If he struggled with noise, they put headphones on and sat him in the corner of the room.


Lots of things that people will be able to relate to. And then we finally got somebody that would listen after sort of years of pushing. He went through the process. He went through an organisation that some people heard are called CAMH. He went through CAMH to get his diagnosis. They identified it. He was one of the last that was Asperger's high functioning autism, as we know, they explained the emotional side and the practical side and the sensory aspects of it.


And then it was sort of you're on your own. There wasn't that sort of pathway. So then it was a little bit of, okay, great. You've told us what you see as wrong. You've gave us this diagnosis, but what do we do with that? How do we implement it? How do we look for that support? And then if anybody that's experiencing this or has been through it or know there's the likes of the EHC plans, educational plans in school, then you've got to start thinking about how do we support? So we know we know what's wrong. What do we do to ensure that this doesn't become


the problem that we think it is and how do we work with the school or work with whatever settings you're trying to work in to give that child the best. So it was just that we knew and we had to keep pushing forward and that's the one piece of advice I give is that sometimes it's thankless task, it's challenging, it takes a long time, it's hard and it'll feel like you're not getting anywhere but they need you to just keep pushing sometimes even when you think you've got nothing left to give.


and eventually, you know, somebody, you'll make that dent where somebody will listen and then they'll start to look at it and see it differently. And sometimes it's people don't know what they don't know. It's not, was at malice and it's not ignorance that's there on purpose. It's just that sometimes people don't understand and you're pushing against a system, particularly with a school system, that isn't quite built.


to cope with children that maybe need to learn in a different way. I don't say learning difficulties, I always say learning differences because I think they just learn differently in general and children with additional needs. that was the one. The one difference was that it felt more challenging. It felt like you were fighting against something. And I think that by the time we've gone through it few more times, I've reframed it that I'm fighting for something.


Which just makes it that little bit easier is that I'm doing this for him because he's not capable or we're doing it for them because they need us to. And I think that when it becomes difficult, that makes it a little bit easier to push on through. But education, there is books out there, but you know, there is stuff online that you can find. There is good organizations out there, which I'm sure you're going to list in the footnotes. There is places where you can get information and get support. just as you start to understand autism,


you can help them understand it because if we think that they, don't understand it, they don't understand it either. And all they know is that they sometimes just don't fit in everywhere that they look. They sometimes don't understand why, why they find certain things difficult. So the more that we're able to sit and talk to them in it. And that's one thing that I did learn on this journey is that the meltdowns, the bits that we see as the challenging behavior, which I really don't like that term.


But when they are really struggling to understand why they feel the way they feel and all these emotions are overriding them and we see the bad behaviour that maybe needs to be combated or disciplined is that sometimes we've just got to sit in that with them. You know, it's like we try and stop that behaviour and we try and stop the meltown. What we've got to help them do is understand where it's coming from and how to control it. And the more that we keep pushing it and trying to suppress it.


makes that more difficult. I learned all of that by studying it. I didn't know how to do that. I didn't know how to support my boys when they were struggling with certain things. I didn't know how... You can make five lots of toast and they can all be the wrong shade, you know? And when you're under the cosh you're trying to get out the door and it's, come on, you know, that little bit of frustration or the fact that you've made the Ribena with just a little bit too much water.


To us it looks okay, it tastes exactly the same. To them it doesn't. Or the fact that they've changed the ingredients in the stuff that we use to wash the clothes so now it feels different and it smells different. And because we don't agree with what they're saying, we try and convince them that we know better. And again, what I've learned is that if they're trying to tell me that something's not quite the same as it was, they've got a better instinct in that


in themselves than I do and I've maybe got to learn to listen and that's sort of what I meant in general is that I have somewhat became the student because I've learned everything from watching them and letting them sort of educate me on what they need. That's easier as they get older because they're able to vocalise it and it's just sort of given them the spaces to do that. So yeah, in terms of the tips, it's, you know, keep going, keep pushing. If you know that you're right.


keep asking the questions. If there is people around you, unsolicited advice is so hard to take and there'll be people that will tell you how you should parent a child with autism that haven't got children with autism. I very rarely listen to that, I'll be honest. And that might be a little bit rude, but it is different. It's the people that say, little Sally should not have an iPad at the dinner table. Well, if it means that she's going to eat her dinner, then maybe there's a compromise to be had. Maybe there's a conversation because the rules are different. And that's the bit that is really important.


Is that things are different and if you've got two children in the house and one or more, one's neurodiverse and one isn't, you can't have the same rules sometimes and it creates a bit of conflict because they don't understand each other's point of view because one gets away with things that the other one doesn't and that again creates a problem. So being able to have these conversations I believe as they get older is important but yeah it's the listening to your gut, listening to your child.


Persistence does beat resistance and trying to surround yourself in information and study and know as much as you possibly can. We're always learning, we're always evolving, there'll be new information constantly and that would be my advice.


Alis (28:28)

Thank you, that's really sound advice. But as I'm sitting here listening to you, I'm thinking about those parents that might not have the capacity or the energy or the space. I love learning. I love the fact that my brain is plastic and I can constantly be learning new things. But there's some people that hate learning. The idea of picking up a book is triggering. Layer on top of that, the fear of...


the fact that you're moving into an unknown world with a child. So I'm sort of thinking about that parent who would struggle with what you've just talked about, the learning aspect. And also there's those parents that don't necessarily have the capacity to persist and keep going back to school and keep being that champion for their child. know, personality, fear.


trying to be polite, you know, there's a huge list of reasons that might stop them. So I love the suggestions you've got for parents. So my next question really is, what would you suggest to schools? Because some parents don't have that. So in my mind, everyone who's caring for a child should be their champion. So what should schools know about parents who are just going through this


recognition that their child is neurodiverse and how could schools better support a parent who might not have that capacity to do some of the things that you were saying?


Scott Mair (30:03)

Again, really important conversation and it's probably very similar to the parent -child relationship is speak to the people that are going through it. I think it's starting that conversation. I agree that the sort of pushing and the only difficulty I see is you are much more disadvantaged if you're not able to sort of challenge and push and I agree with that because sometimes the ones that make the most noise are the ones that actually sometimes get heard.


and it's the ones that don't, that you're absolutely right, we need to look at the best ways we can support them. So it would be for the skill to start that conversation. As part of the process, we understand the time restraints, I understand the pressures, and a lot of the pushback that we've had is, we know the numbers are increasing in terms of neurodiversity diagnosis per 100 ,000. We know that lower demographics are higher rates per 100 ,000 than more affluent areas.


So we know some of the challenges that are going on in communities that does make it difficult to engage with services. There is the fear of if I challenge, then social services are involved and my children are getting taken away from me if I make too much noise. There is lots of mitigating factors to your rate. So it's looking at the skills that yes, you might not be able to change your classroom as such completely, but we should try and support the ones that also need additional changes in that classroom.


rather than just constantly saying that we've got to cater to the majority because we should be trying to create environments that support the children that are the ones probably more vulnerable in that class because it won't negatively impact everybody else. It's just maybe looking at it ever so slightly differently to find out what that looks like. You speak to the parents that spend the majority of the time with those children or the carers or the wider family, whoever it is that's engaging with schools because quite often we look at


the parents as that sort of first port of contact and it's not always the case, you know. It might be different carers, could be kinship carers, it could be grandparents, but also siblings and that's an area that I think we miss and again, I would particularly if I was in a school, if there was an older sibling that was already in the school, that's a conversation because they will know what works at home and what doesn't. It puts a little bit of pressure on that sibling, I understand.


They're probably already feeling that pressure if they've got a younger sibling that might be struggling in school or finding it more difficult or just had that diagnosis. So it's using the tools that you know are sort of there in that family to what would support that child, starting that conversation. How can we help you? What we want, we keep hearing about the increased numbers of children that are now being home educated and that a large portion of that are children that are neurodiverse or have got


additional needs that the parents have opted for that for a whole host of reasons. We're going to discuss the fact that we're one of them. But if we're looking to reduce that, we've got to make sure that the school environment is as good an option, if not better option, than the alternative. And the only way to do that is to speak to the people that would be the alternative. And again, you're going to have parents that won't be able to home educate. They have to send their children to school, even though they know it's probably not the best environment for them. They carry a lot of guilt.


It's not a nice feeling to know that this may be something that's upsetting or causing detriment to their child putting them in environments, but they don't have an alternative. They don't work from home. They may be single parents. There could be a whole host of reasons. They may not have the capacity themselves. They might be neurodiverse and home educating someone that's neurodiverse creates challenges that they maybe don't know that they would be able to do or have support from. So it's how do we make that environment? We ask.


You work with the children on, there's something that they're particularly struggling with, ask them. From all ages, they're sometimes able to articulate in their own way what it is about a certain situation that they don't like, or why they might be struggling in that situation, or why they're not happy in that situation, or how we could get the best out of it. Or is there an alternative? Can we have...


Like for example, we work with the family hubs up and down the country and they have sensory rooms that parents and community workers can use for the children. Can we start to implement areas like that in schools, which I know some schools have done. So there is alternatives from the classrooms and I don't use the phrase time out, but I have worked with lots of families that do. And these safe, practical spaces are places that you can just take a few minutes out from the classroom and then come back in because that's what parents do at home.


We do it. I speak to lots of parents that when there is that state of overwhelm, when the child is particularly struggling, is they will have their comfort place that they go to. You know, we've created little nooks and little dens around the house where my boys just disappear for 10 minutes and they just need that switch off. We all do. Even with our own neurodiversity, we sometimes need to take a step out of the situation. What we do in the school, and it's the one thing that I think we could change very quickly, is if they are struggling in a certain situation,


Alis (35:04)

Absolutely.


Scott Mair (35:14)

we punish them for struggling by removing them and isolating them, or we make them stay in that situation and thinking that's the best thing to do, whereas that's actually a punishment. And if we as adults, neurodiverse or not, were in a situation where we were getting increasingly angry and frustrated and overwhelmed, we would remove ourselves from that situation as soon as we possibly could. We wouldn't stay in it, but we sometimes expect them to. And I think if you speak to parents and help them understand a little bit more as part of the


parent teacher relationship, you know, but then you've got to understand the teachers don't always have the understanding of neurodiversity. So it becomes the same coordinator or the other coordinators in the school, which puts a lot of demand on them to engage with every parent. So training would be so fundamentally important to understand it, just to have a better understanding and more basic knowledge of neurodiversity. Have champions within the schools, ones that have got that more training that can offer that additional support and be able to see the signs because


starting the conversation with the parent before they're getting a diagnosis helps the parent have their own voice because they're then part of the journey. It's not just a, when they come in for parents even, I think your child might be dyslexic. I think your daughter might have ADHD. And it's been a little bit more part of we're starting to see some signs. Can we work together? And do you see these same signs? This is what we see as a school. Do you see it as a parent? It's that early intervention.


that I think is really important. Schools can do that very well because they do have that interaction with some parents. And the reason I did mention siblings is that when you've got two parent families, more than ever both parents work now, more than ever before. And quite often one of the support networks for childcare is shift work. So you have one that works days and one that works nights. And if they're both working, it's often the siblings that will do the pick up from school.


And it might be the older one on the way home from high school or secondary school picking the younger one up. So it's whoever that contact is, grandparent, auntie, uncle, sibling, the one that you see regularly. It's starting that conversation to build a picture because COVID taught us one thing, and this is my last point. COVID taught us one thing that we've moved away from and we forgot quite quickly is that when it came to work -life balance, we understand now that they're not two separate things.


Bad days at work spill into bad nights at home and vice versa. We're starting to be aware of that because quite often people work from home, so they lived where they worked and it became hard to differentiate. So we know got a better understanding on that work -life balance and we talk about it more. School -life balance is exactly the same. So if they're having difficult times at school, it's going to spill it into home and if they have bad times at home, it's going to spill into school and that Sunday night syndrome that we used to all probably remember.


at certain stages of our life, but children that have got neurodiverse, they have Sunday night syndrome lots of times in the week if they're finding it difficult, that it is having a negative impact. So we can't just split it anymore and think that we don't talk about what they do at home in school and we don't talk about vice versa because if we can get harmony even 50 % of the time in both of those places, it creates a much better environment for learning and then children will have that understanding that...


Learning is life, it's not just something they have at school. Negative experiences at school sometimes makes people think they don't want to learn and they don't like education and I think that is an awful thing to do is to create a lack of wanting to learn because of the environment that they learn in.


Alis (38:48)

I agree. think, you know, as a head, for me, it was always trying to promote a love of learning rather than, you know, stuff heads full of facts. It was more about we've got a whole life ahead of us. Let's get these kids to really enjoy learning. I think I'm pulling from...


you made quite a few really pertinent points there, but pulling out of them is the idea of relationships and the importance of relationships, whether it's relationships within the family or relationships between the school and the family. Because if those are in place and they're authentic and effective, then we can find out what...


we can do best as adults for the children. And it made me think about the sensory rooms that I had in my school and they don't need to be expensive, they don't need to be huge. I just made little nooks and crannies around the school but I built them with the child and I spoke to their caregiver as well and they would often bring things in from home. You know, it would be like a favourite Lego toy or a favourite blanket and so actually...


from a school perspective, it doesn't need to cost a lot. don't need to be finding funding for an amazing sensory room that can fit 10 kids in and has everything wonderful in there. It can just be something that's really simple, but gives them that time out when they are feeling overwhelmed. I think I'd really love to hear about why you chose homeschooling. So you've just talked about all the things that schools can do.


to support. What led you down the homeschooling route?


Scott Mair (40:30)

Yeah, there's lots of positives and one thing I always like to stress from the very beginning to anybody that's listening that is interested or considering it or maybe sitting there thinking it's just not for me is it's not for everybody. It doesn't fit. So I can sit here and say how great it is and it was just not going to fit into your world. And I'm not trying to create guilt of how much better your children would be if you did. And it was we were in a very fortunate position because we both work from home.


that we were able to do that. We'd worked from home long before COVID, we were very lucky that we had the flexibility to do it. But it was forced upon us in the very beginning. My eldest, I've mentioned, is 21. He was bullied in school. He's not neurodiverse, but he does have a mood disorder and questioned ADHD, but never had a diagnosis. just school just wasn't, it wasn't his happy place.


He just didn't enjoy it. He really struggled with all aspects. Primary school wasn't as bad, which we hear all the time, it was secondary. But by the start of year eight, he was being bullied horrifically and we'd had various trips to A &E. It was very violent, but it was also my introduction and Sarah, my wife's introduction to the darker side of social media and having technology where we're contactable at all times because


for children from my 42 years of age when you had an issue at school, it stayed at school till the next day. It doesn't anymore. You know, it follows them everywhere that they go. So it was the constant barrage and bombardment that just became all consuming. And he was in a very dark place. And again, we went to CAMH We were referred to them because he was struggling, but because they didn't know what to do with my son because of the bullying and how he was. They label them school refusals.


Which I think is a real unfair term and he was being bullied and traumatised and had severe issues with mental health. It wasn't just refusing to go to school but that's what it gets labelled. So when he was trying to engage he was put in isolation so he was punished for being a victim is what that translates to to a 13, 14 year old. We went to have the assessment with CAMH they said that the issues that they were seeing from his assessment was it was the school that was the issue.


It was that going into school was just going to undo any sort of good that they did. And would we be willing to home educate? And we said, we'd already asked and had that conversation, but we didn't really feel the support of the school to do so. So they said, we'll do letters and we'll back it. We'll support it. He will remote work, do his work, take it in, get assessed. And within about six months, it was a different kid, completely different kid.


we've learned a style of how to interact with him and how to develop a personalized plan that he engaged with and he enjoyed. The one barrier that I say is still in place with all of my boys is that there's a fine line between, say for me for example, a teacher that is trying to just encourage that little bit more and a dad that is nagging. And when you're both, it's quite difficult. So when you look at say, they're doing descriptive writing and it's


that's really, really good son, but just give me a little bit more detail or what do you think they would be feeling in that moment? And you just keep pushing because you know there's more in there and you want it. You're getting excited. And it's like your dad's just nagging at you, he's just getting on at you. And then you create that friction. So it's knowing sometimes when to step back because you are the parent as well as the teacher. So that is probably one of the earlier things that we realized is that trying to get those barriers in place and again, listen to him on what he wants and how he wants to learn.


He's never been the sort of student or even as an adult really that would do... If there was 21 questions and then there was four extra credits, if I don't have to do the extra credits, I'm not doing the extra credits. So we learnt very quickly it's not worth it, just do the 21 and then we'll leave it. But it was trying to maximise the 21. But it was having that freedom that if he was feeling a little bit overwhelmed, you can take that step back, go into that sensory room or the equivalent.


and then re -engage rather than trying to keep them submerged in something that they're feeling frustrated by and add practical learning. Like I've said, he's a tradesman. So quite quickly, we learned how you could process by building or taking things apart or using their hands, adding different aspects to learning was something that we found really beneficial. They weren't going to sit him in his exams because he wasn't part of the school, but again, we pushed and they let him sit. He passed all his exams and went on to college. So it wasn't him,


that was the issue they believed he was. It was the environment that he was in that didn't quite work for him. Then we waited to be seen by CAMH He was on the waiting list to be seen in the programme for four years and he wasn't seen. He was discharged when he was 18. So by that point he'd already gone through college and was looking at employment and we'd found a way that worked for him. The next son down was in the school system, not neurodiverse and he loved primary school. He was a sort of...


He'd go to school with a broken leg, no problem. Loved it. 100 % attendance most years. Secondary school came. Just, it was too big. The step up was too much for him. He didn't know where he fit. It made him very unwell to the degree that he was actually tested for brain tumours because of headaches and nauseas and just anxiety and loss of weight. And it was just the anxiety of being in that environment. So we said, we'll just see. And then once we pulled him out...


and seen such a quick change in a matter of months that we just opted to take the rest of the boys out. And by that point, we already had one that had just been diagnosed that we knew had autism. And we were starting to look at the younger one at the time. And the rest of my boys have not even entered the system. They've just continued. And it does work for us. We've got boys that have got dyslexia. And we've mentioned about autism, ADHD.


We've got a dual diagnosis for one of my boys and that practical learning has become something so incredibly important. So one of my boys who's dyslexic, he really struggles to take directions and to read certain things. He gets a bit overwhelmed and he phoned me one day and he said, he was walking down the road and he said, dad, there's a guy here. He's put his petrol lawnmower, his trimmer, sorry, his petrol trimmer in the skip. I asked him if I can have it and he said, yes, can I bring it home?


And I said, yeah, but what do you want to do with it? He says, I want to strip it down and see if I can fix it. And he's 12. And I says, yeah, go on then. So he's brought it up the road, this big petrol lawnmower, and he spent two and a half days, he stripped this thing to death. But what he did is he went on YouTube and he was able to sort of type in enough to get the videos up on how to take this thing apart and how to check what's wrong with it. And it was obviously getting thrown out for a reason. And he wasn't able to fix it, but he learned so much.


boat it, that we've gone and got one that works and he's able to perform services on it because he'd watched these videos, he's dripped it apart. Now you sit him in a classroom and you won't get that level of enthusiasm out of him. If you give him something more practical to do, we give the boys like projects, we give them a few pounds and say, set up something that if I give you 20 pounds, you've got to make 20 pounds and a penny out of it. Try and make a profit. And he went on Vinted.


anybody that knows what Vinted is a bit like eBay, and he bought all trainers and he bought them and he cleaned them up, fixed them and he sold them. And it was, he sometimes struggles with maths, but he could work out his percentages and his costs and he could work out what he had to give in terms of change that people had bought him because it was practical aspects. So that's what homeschool brought to us is there's so much different ways to learn and his reading has improved


from doing it in different ways, from reading the ingredients on what he needs for the stuff to clean the trainers, for seeing what he needs to check on different parts of the mortar to take it apart is, he'd sit out there for hours. I wouldn't get him to sit and do that many hours of anything else that wasn't something that he could practically learn from. And then we asked him to dictate a report so that he could read it and then sort of edit it. So he wrote a report on what he did.


But for all intents and purposes, he just spoke the report, because he can talk very well, he struggles with the writing, and even typing is easier than writing. But it was the different ways in which we could use it and that. Once we started to see that through our eldest, we realised very quickly that there is different ways to learn and that they can have real enjoyment and can build on so many of their skills. But we're a big family, Alis, they've got the social aspect and that's the one thing I always try and point out is


when it's one or two children, they can miss out on the social interaction. The only negative from us is that my boys didn't have lots of experience with girls, is that they've just been exposed to predominantly boys, been around boys all the time and school would definitely provide that. So for anybody that is considering it or has just started doing it or has been doing it for a while but might not be aware is there's lots of meetups for home networks up and down the country.


Alis (50:00)

Yeah, tell me about that. What


are the home school communities like?


Scott Mair (50:05)

See the home school communities are really good. I think it depends on what you're looking for. So for example, we live in Warwickshire and we have been told from sort of lots of different data out there that for a home education from a local authority point of view, we've got a lot of support, one of the best ones in the country. Cause we have to do an annual report, but we don't get particularly drop in inspections. We've got a nice relationship with local authorities and they run picnics and family days.


you know, as a local authority, we can go along and take the children and meet other parents so they get to interact with other children. So then from there, you develop splinter group friendships where we've got parents now that we talk to through WhatsApps, that are home educators that we met at these meetups. You will have parents within, so for example, there's a French tutor in one of our local groups who is a lady from France that decided she could do tuition for children that are home educated. Some will charge.


A little bit of money for some of these activities. Some of it is provided as free. There's horse riding from people that have got horses, local. There's one dad who is a plumber and every six weeks he takes on, it's like a short term apprentice and you'll just like a bit like work experience. So it's for any kids that are home educated that are looking at getting involved in the trade, you'll take them out and just give them a little introduction.


and then if they look to go to college he can give them a bit of a recommendation with the local colleges. it's within those networks there is, but most of it is activities at local community centres or they'll pick up a certain park and on an afternoon if nothing else the kids get to go play, do a bit of football, play a bit of sports, go to the park and have a picnic and whatever it may be and meet up with other children. So they've still got that. So if you didn't use it for anything educational.


it gives that social aspect that I think is one of the most important parts of school and we undersell it, is that that interaction with other people and socialising. Sometimes it's very difficult for certain children and social anxieties or being uncomfortable around people is magnified but in the vast majority of cases, know, that's the bit that they miss from whole school is not getting to interact. But on the flip side, we've seen during Covid when people were remote learning.


There was lots of people that were neurodiverse that excelled during remote learning, that struggled in the classroom. The issues were when we tried to put them back into the classroom because they'd done so well in their own space, being comfortable sometimes in their own clothes from the waist down. Wearing these school trousers is sometimes not very nice for children that are neurodiverse and having to wear shoes they're not comfortable with, they don't like. So they could sit at a desk in a shirt with shorts and flip -flops on, you know, and it sounds so simple.


but that makes such a difference to someone that is particularly sensory from neurodiversity. there's lots of benefits from my point of view, but the meetups, the network is really good and it's good for advice, even for deregistering a child. So taking them out of school. If you've got an EHC plan in place, it's very, difficult to try and deregister. So you do need that support. So within these groups, there is people that have done it time and time again.


legal advice and a lot of them meet up particularly on Facebook groups. There's people that you can just Google like some of the leaders on home education and they've got templates of letters to use to deregister your child to look at EHC plans to look at putting different things in place. So these networks they're so important particularly when you're just starting to home educate. Once you've found your rhythm you may not need that support but as you're just transitioning into home education it's nice to know there's people out there that


have been doing it for a while and have got that support and advice because it is uncharted territory and we probably are, in fact we are, it's not probably about it, the first generation to do it en masse. So there isn't really this people that you can go and talk to that did it 15, 20, 30 years, well you might know somebody that home educated but not like this, not to these numbers. So using the people that are there now that...


I've got good advice that that would be one tip for me is to use what's out there and just know where you stand and what's available.


Alis (54:18)

Thank you, that's really helpful. What would your 21 year old say about his experience of homeschooling? you asked him what he thinks were the positives and were the negatives?


Scott Mair (54:30)

In fairness, it's something that we have discussed an awful lot to the degree that we've already discussed the fact that his now daughter, my granddaughter, will be home educated. And quite strong on that is that that's what they think. If possibly nursery, just to see how she does in that scenario. yeah, home education. So that's his experience. His partner wasn't home educated, but he's quite strong and they've had that conversation.


He sees all the positives and I can't think of a conversation that was negative about home education from him and that's the honest truth. He's got, in fact, no, I take that back, I am lying. I think the only negative he would say was that conflict sometimes with the me learning my boundary would probably be the one, because that one has came up. He's quite vocal about that, but.


They've been able to learn that he's on speed. He thought it was really positive. The knowing your own limitations. Again, some people will have pushback. They'll have arguments on this, that if you're in a workplace and you're feeling overwhelmed, you can't take that time off. You can't take that step back. You can't look for that space to take a step back, to take a breather, which is what we've sort of introduced into home education.


what I believe, and I've had that push back from lots of people, what I believe in my son is that what it taught him was what he's capable of. Because you've got to learn your boundaries, you've got to learn where your limitations are sometimes. And learning it at a young age means that you're aware of it. It doesn't mean that it stays that way. So he's more aware of what he can push through because he had the ability to step back sometimes. And he quite liked, like said, the doing it his own space.


He liked the fact that he could do practical activities. He liked the fact that he wasn't quite restricted because like I said, we've mentioned the mood disorder, possibly ADHD. Like routine, some people have ADHD, but push against routine at the same time. You've got that inner conflict and he definitely fitted that of, I need a little bit of structure. So to give me a rough outline of what I've got to do.


But don't have it that I've got to be here at this certain time and there and there and that's because that just sort of adds a little bit of overwhelm so that's one of the things that he would always talk about from his own experience and but I suppose He sometimes feels that he may be missed out on a little bit of stuff, but that's more the the being bullied Than the being home educated because that the being bullied it


impacted his trust in people. And even though from, he still had the same friend groups and they would invite him to things just because he wasn't in school, doesn't mean that he was completely cut off. But it just changed his opinions of people because the people that bullied him were people that he was close to. And that was the bit that he, when we first discussed it over the years, and it wasn't until about two or three years ago that he said, it wasn't the home education that isolated me. It was the being bullied and the fact that...


the school, the system, the people that I fought were there to protect me didn't. And that's the bit that massively impacted on him. And I think the home education was able to rebuild that confidence. So again, it's not for everybody, but particularly from his point of view, it was one of probably one of the best decisions we ever made from him because it changed everything. And it did put him back on course. And without taking this into too dark a route, and I have got his permission because we've spoke about this, is you know,


there was times where we were very concerned that my son wouldn't be here anymore. And people that have got children that have been in that situation will know how serious it can get and how much damage it does. I don't say this likely that, you know, it was life changing having that luxury do. And again, that's not putting pressure on people that can't home educate that know their children are going through that. It's just that we now have the facilities, I think, within schools that


There is remote working, there is flexi working, there's flexible timetables. No, when we're going back to when this happened nearly 10 years ago, we didn't have those things. They were just so resistant to anything other than being in a classroom that there is options now. So if their child is going through what my child was and they can't home educate, that bit that you said, what can schools do, is just found that program, that beast book that works that...


It might be similar to isolation, but the child doesn't feel like they're being punished for what happened to them. It's how we reframe it. It's how we create those spaces. So that child is, know, this is, we're creating this space so that you can still be here and still learn and thrive. And everything you want to be in life can still happen rather than we're going to put you in isolation because that's the best place for you because you can't be in the classroom because that doesn't help. it's leading back to the previous point of if your child is going through.


a real difficult time, school refusal, being bullied, neurodiverse, whatever the reason is, or sometimes all of the above, is that if you can't have them in your environment, it's just trying to work with the school and the school work with the parents on how do we curate the next best thing as an environment in that school setting that you've said, that you know, the sensory rooms that don't have to cost lots of money. can be areas where familiarity is fantastic. Having those toys, what a great idea. We've said this before, that if they've got a little figure,


and they're in primary school, for example, and it's their favorite little action man or iron man, and we don't like it in the classroom. If it's just sort of in their desk or in their pocket, is it the end of the world? Is it really the end? Do we have to be so resistant? yeah, but if this child has it, then every child has it. Again, is it the end of the world if they all have that little something that just helps keep them calm? You know, we used the fidget spinners, we, for a while, and fidget cubes, you know, if there's something.


that they have that you've just identified, they bring it in and it goes in that room. It goes in that space and they can just, there's always the worry that it could be abused as a system. But as long as we sometimes manage it, it's as things get overwhelmed, they go into that space, they get a certain amount of time. We don't put a time limit on it as such, but they get to decompress, play with that, whatever it might be in a darkened room with some nice lighting, some nice sounds, whatever it might be.


and then reengage. Just take away and reengage because when we've done reading with my son who's got dyslexia, and this is one, I don't want to say it's a tip because I don't want to sound like I'm father of the year, not even close, I'm not claiming to be. But when it came to my son with dyslexia, one thing that, and Skils, I think could do this, but it would take a little bit of thought, but it's similar to what you've just said about those rooms, is he would read, and this is where we need to speak to both parents as much as we possibly can and the people that are,


Alis (1:01:16)

you


Scott Mair (1:01:34)

in that family supporting that child is that they will look at things differently. They'll have one that's sometimes emotionally invested and one that's practically. And it's not always sex that fits each one, but mom sometimes emotional, dad's quite practical. what happens when a child, what do you see? I'm not asking you Alice, cause you're a teacher, but what do you see when your child is getting overwhelmed? And we've done this is my wife, Sarah said, he says, I can't do it. I'm so thick. I'm so stupid. I'm useless. And the book gets thrown down.


and they pull up their hair or they get really upset and they storm off upstairs. If you're at home and they storm off upstairs and you can count to 10 and you know that door is going to get slammed and then they may slam it two more times just to make sure you heard that they've slammed the door. And then they sometimes fall on the bed and punch the pillow and it's so hard to see they've got this negative opinion of themselves. What we would do from that information is, okay, let's work on self -esteem positive reinforcement. Okay, great. How do we do that? Well, we start building up their confidence. Okay, fantastic.


That's going to take a while. Practical minded, so the other parent sometimes, which was me in that situation, is what I've noticed is that my son would read that sentence five times and then he'd get overwhelmed. So the easy fix was we put a circuit breaker in at three. So he doesn't get to five times. So he doesn't get to the overwhelm. It's like you see them reading it, getting frustrated, put the book down, step back.


Just step away from that book, put it down, take a breath, whatever it may be, then come back to it. Because we would do that in the workplace. We absolutely would. Someone sends you a snotty email. You either reply a horrible one and then delete it. Sometimes we send that horrible email straight back and then we want to wish we hadn't. Or you just take a step back from your computer and think, right, how do I reply to this? We give ourselves that space. We don't react in the emotion. We're not teaching that when we keep keeping the children in the emotion of how they're feeling.


So step away from it. Do that circuit breaker. Okay, because what I seen was yes, my son got overwhelmed and he went upstairs, but I seen the fact that it showed the perseverance to try five times before he gave up. And I also seen the resilience to come back downstairs half an hour later and try again. So if we're not speaking to both sides of that, we don't get that full sphere of what that child needs in terms of support. And if we work on the circuit breakers, the positive reinforcement is needed.


but the time it takes to work on that, you've already got something practical that's improving that confidence at the same time. That is the sort of stuff that we've been able to do with Home Education because we can just,


we can take that break, he can take five minutes, we can go out in the garden, we can do something else, and then we'll come back and try again. So over the course of the day, he will still do the element that we want him to do it, might just being biteside chunks.


And there's nothing wrong with that. But sometimes in the classroom, it's maybe we feel that we can't do that because we're to a time, stuck to a restriction, but then we're getting the overwhelmed point that they get to at five rather than stopping at three. And these are the sort of things that we've learned that the luxury that we've had at home education that you maybe don't have in a classroom, but could be implemented. I don't think that's difficult to do.


Alis (1:04:49)

Yeah, I agree. think for my school we had a mantra of equity, not equality. So we were teaching the children first and foremost, but also other parents and teachers that what is right for this one child is right for this one child. And it doesn't mean that every single child in your class has to bring in a superhero toy and have it on their desk.


but it's right for this one child. And because we had a real focus on neurodiversity and difference and celebrating difference, the children, as young as we started, we started with nursery, understood, I don't need to bring my toy in and Little Johnny does, you know, and that's fine. And that again is in the workplace. We're preparing them for adults,


adulthood after all, so we should be preparing them for that sense of equity rather than equality. doesn't all have to look the same for everyone.


Scott Mair (1:05:43)

I love that and it's a slogan that I use quite a lot, is that they are adults in training and I think that we sometimes forget that is a lot of what we're teaching them is we teach them how we want them to be a child and then we point out the bits that we don't agree with as an adult and we don't realise that we were part of how they process as an adult because of how we see them as children and I think that you're right, is, I love that sort of message.


Sorry, just wanted to share that.


Alis (1:06:14)

Brilliant,


thank you. Right, we're coming to the end. What, if you could sum up, I mean, you've given so much information and so many things that have been priceless today, so thank you for that. But what would you hope a listener would take away from listening to this conversation, if you could just sum it up as one thing or a few things that you hope that they would take away from hearing you?


Scott Mair (1:06:39)

That their voice is important and that they have to listen to their voice as much as anybody else. That it's not always as negative as people will tell you that it is surrounding neurodiversity. that when it comes to parenting in general, but we're obviously discussing neurodiversity quite heavy, is that when it comes to parenting, I genuinely believe this, and this is a message I always try and take away, is that our children will teach us.


what they need from us, what we have to do is learn how to listen. And I think that that's probably the thing that I probably myself, I try and follow that every day is that they know what they need. And quite often they know which parent they need it from. And all we've got to do is listen to that guidance and we want to go very wrong.


Alis (1:07:32)

Thank so much. think that's the golden thread that's run through our conversation actually is that we're in the student position actually learning from all these individual children in our care, whether we're the parent or whether we're an educationist that just sort of reframe that as what can we learn from them. So thank you so much. Thank you for your time today. It's been great having you on our episode.


Scott Mair (1:07:56)

No, thank you very much for having me. really appreciate it.